Beyond Happiness | Jenn Lim | The 2%

Until we help others self actualize, we're actually not living our full self, treating pain and loss and sadness as more of a friend. The cure for the pain is in the pain.

Now, we were talking just before you got. Just before I hit record that Tony Hsieh, former CEO Zappos, had put me in touch with Fred Mossler and helped me in the past when I was building a Mexican restaurant chain in the past life. And you had originally founded your business Delivering Happiness with Tony. Right.

And you're on that mission to kind of help create happy company cultures around the world, is that right?

Yeah, that's been the trajectory for the last 11 years now. Super crazy. But when Tony and I launched the book delivering happiness in 2010, lo and behold, we had no idea that there was going to be a company. And I still be writing it all these years later. But yeah, that was the whole genesis of it.

I love that book, by the way. And.

Well, and speaking of books, you have another book coming out in October, right? 2021, beyond happiness.

Love a little blurb on that. What's that all going to be about?

Yeah, so I mean, this book, there was always the next book I was talking to the publishers about. And so contract was signed January 2020. And then of course, 2020 happened. So the series of events leading up to Tony's passing in November just. I couldn't write the book that I was supposed to write. Basically it was just like, there's no way, like the world has changed both for the globe and for myself. And with the, you know, the processing of what happened with Tony and all that then shifted gears to not just talk about.

The work we've done in the last 10 years with companies and governments and hospitals around the world. Came up with this new title of Beyond Happiness where it.

I feel was able to really actually try and embrace what was going on in the world and also what's going on with Tony and us as leaders in the world and how we approach it from a different mindset and from a different place of heart.

What is this fascination with the whole person and trying to get people connected to their purpose and make sure that company workforces are happy. A lot of people just build a company and they just want to make as much money as possible and crash anybody that comes along the way in their path. You take a much different approach. You know, where's all that? What's that born from?

I think it's born from the. Well, to literally be born from where we were when we were born and getting Real with.

That's a good place to be born from.

Yeah. And we as we get older and have all the, you know that we have our genetics but we have our nature and nurture. Right. Like we go through our environments and we learn all these things that are sometimes good and sometimes not good and it impacts us in ways that unless we actually basically just get real with ourselves and that means definitely celebrating what's great with us, but also just recognizing what are our shadow sides and what are the things that we're trying to not bring into our sphere of life that impact us as individuals and therefore us as leaders. So you know, I think just a few years ago this sounds so woo woo, like, you know, I don't need to do that. Like meditation, self awareness, you know, all that. It's just like who needs to be self aware? I can make a lot of money and not be self aware and that's totally fine. There's a lot of people that do do that and want to do that and there's no twisting alarm on my front. It's like, you know, you be you. But. But when we do get real within ourselves first and this more you know, holistic approach of like embracing our highs, celebrating, but also really embracing our lows. And I like that's where the shift happened of like the book that I was supposed to write after Tony's passing, it tested me again. You know, I've been in the happiness business for like 15 years now, but after that I was like, hey, I had to sit down with myself and say, is this still true?

How did the book change? How did the direction of the book, you know, Tony, so Tony, very, very tragic, his passing. And how did, how did the book change then? Like what, what made it change? You know, why did it need to change? What happened thereafter?

Well, I think for me that.

I was already going to talk about as part of our very tactical exercises and practices that we do for leaders to get real with themselves, really understanding and actually like going through steps of mapping out your own story, mapping out your hero's journey of highs and lows. It became even stronger in the sense of what it means to go through my lows in life. Because previously my lowest low was losing my dad almost 20 years ago now. So he was too young. I was in my 20s. I was just like, you know, why does this happen? And really getting real with my own values and sense of, you know, how am I going to prioritize my time in the course of the day? When Tony passed, he was a Lot younger than my dad. He was a public figure. He was one of my best friends. He was like one of my soulmates. I would like all those things and obviously business partner. But it just really thrust my growth and understanding of what this all means and had me question and verify. Is this still true? So of being able to embrace the highs and lows. And a quote from Rumi really got me through this. And I read tons of books and all this on this subject matter, but what he said was, the cure for the pain is in the pain. And that got me through a different trajectory. And I was already reading up on this for years because of my dad's passing. But with Tony passing, then it was like, really put in my face of what does that actually mean? And the.

I was just going to ask, like, what does that mean to you? The cure for the pain is in the pain. It's very reminiscent of, you know, Ryan Holiday. The obstacle is the way. Right?

Yeah, exactly. Resistance.

I think it's in our nature sometimes to block things out and not have to deal with it and. And know that, like, it's okay. Like, you know, maybe, you know, happy, go lucky. It's like, oh, that didn't happen. Or to the point of, you know, on the other end where it's so depressing and sad that it's like, I don't even want to think about it because I'll just get into a hole. For me, it was really treating it like treating pain and loss and sadness as more of a friend putting it next to me and having a conversation with it, rather than trying to block it out as to why I feel these things. And instead having more of an open dialogue of why I feel these things based on these events, especially the culmination of Tony passing, let alone a pandemic, let alone global recession, social injustice, and having conversations with those things to understand.

That for me, excuse me, being able to embrace it and sit with it side by side, the shadows.

Then I was able to see where the height of true happiness or peace or joy or whatever you want to call it can really be within myself.

Yeah, it's interesting because if you take the lows out, then on a relative scale, we don't have the highs.

Right, right. It doesn't get as high.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's like one simple way of looking at it. Yeah, I love that you use the phrase actually highs and lows. One of the things that I've always.

As I'm sure you know, you've done a lot of as well, you know, one of the things I do a lot of is public speaking and one of the things that I always try to do when I'm up on a stage or virtual or whatever is speaking is we've together a story that actually shows the roller coaster journey of life. You know, that it is high and it is low because I get so frustrated when I go to a conference or if I listen to someone speak and they're just talking just about the highs as if like, I mean, first of all, it's a very boring roller coaster, right? Yeah, it's like there's up there the whole time. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's not very relatable, is it? Right. Because we all go through those.

Yeah. We do this exercise with a lot of our leaders and exec, but we call it the happiness heartbeats. So knowing there's the highs and lows and just picture how your heartbeat looks like on a machine, it, the higher it goes, the lower it goes. So you know, if it stays around the same then you're just going to have like the, you know, a little bit of hum and then it's the worst one. It's probably flat because you don't have anything to think about anymore. But that's the whole point of being able to identify that within ourselves. I mean, just do like a quick reflect, reflection exercise on what were those highest highs, what were those lowest lows? You know, what, what does that mean? What, what did we learn from it? What were our values that were present or not present? What were the people that were present or not present in those moments? And that starts building a more sustainable way to understand how to be real with ourselves and actually have more sustainable happiness and joy in our lives.

What's one of the most powerful lessons you learned personally from one of your lows?

Excuse me. Definitely when my dad passed, I was, you know, this is going to bring, bring us back to the day of the dot com days. So all in one year I, you know, dot com boom Moneytown status was super high.

And then all within a year.

Dot com busted. I got laid off and money title status was gone. My dad was diagnosed with stage three colon cancer. And then nine, 11 happened all in one year. So that was a low moment. Not in that order. My dad was the highest order of the low. But it really forced me to rethink how I looked at life and my priorities and therefore values. So I knew at that point not money tile status, it's the people of my life that will really lead that conversation. Within myself and being authentic, number one of that. So if I couldn't get real with myself, how would I be able to prioritize people? It wouldn't. Just wouldn't do them justice, wouldn't do me justice. So I had to really get honest with what do I want to. How do I actually show up and not feel like I'm trying to be something? So that's when it got real. And that was a couple of decades ago. And then of course, it got brought back in a whole new ringer cycle with 2020 and the world events that we had and Tony.

Just saying, hey, is this still true? And it's like, yes, it's still true, but then some. It's yes. And it's really getting into that relationship with those low moments and really like that Rumi quote again, just.

Feeling, you know, there's a big topic around mental health and where we are as a society and individuals and leaders. So that, to me is directly tied to the mental health comes from being able to have that conversation with those low moments.

Yeah. And we're talking about highs and lows predominantly right now from like a micro point of view and that we're talking about, like, as an individual person, individual life. But of course, with Delivering Happiness, with your business consultancy, you're looking at it not just from a micro point of view, but you're also looking at it from the macro. Right. From a company culture point of view.

Right.

So what's. What's the problem that you're trying to solve with Delivering Happiness? Where does. Where does Delivering Happiness kind of fit in the landscape? Why is it needed?

I love the way that you bridged that question. Like, yay, great segue.

I was working on that segue.

You were like, damn, that was smooth. Eric, what did you have for breakfast?

I'm just.

I'm just drinking Coke. Zero.

Ah, nice. Oh, I'm a little jealous. I ran out the other day.

So. Yeah, the. What. What's so what? I love what we've been trying to, you know, because, you know, back in the day was about Zappos and they. They were like a poster child for culture. That was like 15 years ago. And then it was like, when Delivery Happiness was launched, it was like, whoa, this is. This doesn't have to be a Zappos story. So it's like, well, how do we make it sustainable and how do we make it scalable so that we're using scientific, you know, forms of happiness positive psychology and create a method that every company and organization can use? Essentially, so that's where the beauty comes in, is just like it's not necessarily the things we were talking about from an individual basis. So we call it me we community. So me, obviously individual we is teams and organization and community from a business context as our customers, partners and vendors. And now of course, we're touching on like society and the planet in more ways every day. The beauty of it all that we saw, especially over the last several years, is that the concepts that we talk about for sustainable happiness for an individual applies to that of a company. The things that we use to make sure that we're as individuals sustainably happy actually can grow companies in a more sustainable way. And of course, in the last few years, especially after Covid, there's more things that we need to add on to that in terms of resiliency and belonging, accountability and commitment. But the things that we've seen in being able to actually be more profitable by focusing not just on the normal mechanics, but actually focusing on people at the same time so that you have the people, profits and purpose all in alignment. So it's no like, you know, it's not a zero sum game. When you have those three things together, you actually see your impact grow not just in your money, you know, your bank account or your stock price, you.

Know, in your money pot.

Yes, exactly.

So that's what we've been doing. It's been able to show in this, you know, in a measurable way, because otherwise people are like, you know, naturally CFOs, like, what? That doesn't make sense. Like, why would I spend money on that? It's like, well, you know, this is an asset people are. And this is how you do it and this is how you show like, you know, we worked with Starbucks for a few years and being able to show that there was a lot of moving parts in a huge company like that.

But by the end, were you showing a.

Numerical correlation between the happiness and the people increasing and then even the profitability of the company increasing?

Yeah, for different organizations, they are comfortable using the word happiness and we have measurements around that and tools around that. So it really depended on what their culture is about and terminology that they're comfortable with because they could use other things like engagement or productivity or, you know, things like that. So. But the biggest thing though that, like what you brought up and when I was a great point that I want to build on is until you are able to really be clear about that measurability of, you know, if it's engagement, if it's retention. If it's like whatever your problems are in your money pot of people like being able to track that to and correlate to a person's wellbeing, essentially.

That'S the most sustainable way to keep this impact growing.

Yeah. And it's because obviously you'll have a segment of people who, they don't need the money. Convincing argument.

Yeah.

I want to make my people happier and more engaged and of course, let's just do it just because I believe in that. But if you can create that data connection, then you also, then you know, you get the other side of the brain folks as well, so to speak. And you know, you just get a bigger piece of, bigger piece of the pie and then I guess ultimately exactly. You get to do.

What you're, you know. So, so, so we talked about Abraham Aslo right before we. We press record and I would say, how so Ultimately what I'm trying to do with this podcast is solve what I perceive to be the world's biggest problem, which is that Abraham Maslow estimated that only 2% of people are operating to their fullest potential. Now, whether it's 2% or you know, I don't know, 3% or 5 or 18, I've seen various studies and kind of like, you know, the number changes and but.

There is a unanimous agreement that it's too small the number and it's a minority and that we need a bigger, more people playing to their fullest capabilities. So I kind of see that connected to also what you're doing with delivering happiness, helping people self actualize realize their full potential. But what I was getting to before I hit record, you said we should really talk about Abraham Maslow because I have some cool things and ideas to share about my thinking about his pyramid and hierarchy needs and all that. I don't know where that was going to go, but.

Soak that one.

Yeah, that's one of those moments where we didn't plan for this. Like that earlier segue that you had that was amazing. This is another one because we had no idea. You didn't know I was going to talk about Maslow in my book. And yet I did because I'm super like Tony and I put Maslow in the first book delivered happiness and this one was like when I started re like reflecting and generating the lessons learned along the way in the last 10, 11 years, I looked at the pyramid again, Maso hierarchy and I was like, this just is not cutting it anymore. Yeah. So I did my own take on it. But what I was happily like surprised about in the research was that he did his own take on it too, 50 years after he created that pyramid. Because I was like, no, I was like. So I'll break it down two things. So I'll leave his update.

The second point, the first point was how it was built as a pyramid and it was a hierarchical one. And I think the more updated current version of it is that it's not a hierarchical one. It's actually more of a spectrum. So that you're not necessarily. You need physiological needs before you can go to the next, before you can actually go all the way to the top of self actualization. That was its original intention. But these days I think we see a flow, you know, of the different polars of someone could maybe have just barely those physiological needs, but actually be more self actualized than, you know, someone that's in our next.

Yeah, you don't, you don't. Yeah, you don't need to go like, it's not like this ladder rungs, the ladder.

And yeah, you have to go. Yeah, bidirectional. And then. So I also like talk about other elements. But the other thing that I thought was really cool, and I'm really surprised that this isn't more in public and published, publicized, is that he came up with something before he passed called transcendence. So it wasn't self actualization at the top. Yeah, she sounded like transcendence. And people don't talk about that that often, but that's exactly what the, the analogy that we're bringing in, the parallel between coming from the me to the we, individual to the group or the company, what he said was that, you know what? That's not what we're all about. What? Until we transcend, which essentially is until we help others self actualize, we're actually not living our full self, our potential. That 2% that you're saying. So that transcendence, I love that. Top, top, top of the. Yes. Help other self actualize, then that's when you're truly living up to that potential.

Yeah.

So I think that to your point of what you're trying to do with your podcast and everything you're working on, adding that element is so current, you know, transcending.

I think you're literally transcending for a moment there, you're like elevating.

No, no, no. Yeah, but it's. It is. I just had this funny thought though of like the person who's transcending, but, but like paying complete disregard to their physiological needs, their love needs. You know, their needs, like they're just an absolute mess, but yet they're helping other people self actualize. Does that qualify as transcendent still?

I would say that.

Let'S channel in Maslow right now. But what I would say is that it qualifies as an element of it. But that's why it's not hierarchical, because we can all have different elements of those, you know, those levels of the pyramid and that actually really be, you know, all have our physiological. Excuse me, physiological needs met the same thing that we were not truly transcending because all this like, you know, we have crap relationships because we treat people like crap, you know, that kind of thing. So yeah, it has to be like a more holistic.

And then we. We also forgot the most important part in Maslow's update and which was that he said it wasn't even a pyramid anymore. It actually became a trapezoid with a cylinder that was next to it and a cube. Now I'm just totally making that up. Anyway, we got to get off these stupid Maslow jokes. It's going down south quickly.

Okay, so he's turning into his grave right now.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Now let's go back to beyond happiness because I'm really excited to read the book when it comes out. And can you share with us, I don't know, one of one of your most. Your favorite lesson in the book or something that you're just a little bit of a tidbit, something that you're very excited for people to kind of read and learn from.

I think the going back to this idea of, you know, no more math, less jokes, and no more. But the whole thing about 2%. And the biggest thing I think for me is how.

This thing about authenticity and how we show up as leaders. So I mentioned the happiness heartbeat exercise that we do in terms of like really charting our own journey and understanding what that means from like a highest and lowest standpoint. Another thing that I we do, but introduced in the book formally is what I call the wheel of wholeness. This applies to not just us as leaders, but the ideal is that it applies to everyone in our organization. When we look at the wheel of wholeness, they can imagine just like a pie and there's different slices. And the slices can include so the mental, the emotional, the relational, the physical, the financial, the spiritual. So depending on who you are, you could pick your own pies, like pieces of what most important to you. Using that as like basically from a scale of 1 to 10 of just putting the points down as to where you are as a snapshot in your life in that day becomes a really useful tool to be able to say these are the things that are like totally kicking ass at. And these are things like just feel really not safe about or insecure or not confident about and then just doing it on a regular basis. Could be monthly, could be quarterly, whatever it is. But then you get the sense of what needs to be worked on and what you're feeling good about and celebrating that is, I think especially now with this time and age of what's been going on, with this age of awakening or resignation as we know, a lot of people are just like, you know, hell with this, I'm not going to deal with this anymore. So like a lot of leaders are just like, you know, how do we retain people? You know, what are we doing about this exodus? It's like bringing up this very simple tool and not just doing it for ourselves as leaders, but also for the people we lead and say, hey, you know, I actually care about this. And it doesn't become an onus on the leader, it becomes a dialogue of like, because they need to take ownership as well and that. But at least you can have a very clear and transparent and just caring, empathetic way of talking about what needs to be done for the company, for the team and therefore themselves and yourself. So I think it's one of the things I'm really excited about talking about and had no idea that it'd be even more important now that we're seeing just people quitting left and right and actually taking a stand for themselves as what's important to them and it becomes an easy tool to have this dialogue in a very meaningful way.

Yeah, I totally, totally agree with you. It's something I've certainly experienced like companies that I've either worked with or built. If you. The moment someone in a company realizes that this company actually cares about me in a way that is beyond just me doing well in my role, like, you know, creating this report or whatever, cares about my well being, wants to teach me skills that may or may not be directly applicable to this role or company, but that are just good for life in general. When you invest in people as people and not as cogs in the machine, in my experience, it just elevates people to a whole new level. And it's part of this whole thing that we're talking about which whether we're saying the top is self actualization or self transcendence, whatever, but you know, if the, the commonality is that we all just want to reach our full capabilities and we're going to be naturally most attracted from a stickiness point of view, right. To connect with people who support that within us. And so that's why I think what you're, what you're doing is so cool with delivering happiness is just helping, you know, create those cultures right.

In a scalable way.

And people don't realize how sticky that is. It's just like people.

That love that stuff, right. They want to be supported in that way. I always think, I like to think of threes.

So I always think of like that we're predominantly. And you can nest things however you want. But I like to think that we're most obsessed with our health, our wealth and our relationships. And within health, you know, I think of, you know, mental health and spiritual health and you know, emotional and physical. And then within wealth, I think of both, you know, what you do to make, you know, money and what you do to grow that money. And then relationships, I think of everything from the relationship, you know, with yourself to, you know, your family and friends if you have, you know, a spiritual or religious component. So.

I think there's lots of ways to skin the cat. And I guess I'm just saying that, yeah, really aligned with what you're teaching and doing.

What do you think is. What's just some fun ways of thinking about things. So what's one thing that you think many leaders out there.

Are doing but shouldn't be doing?

Hmm.

I'd say that.

It's really interesting to me when we, you know, we get pinged for services like, you know, CEO says, hey, can you help with our culture or can you help with this or that? And. And they think that they're checking it a box off. They're just like a culture check. You know, we're good, we got.

But it's not what it's about. What I love is when leaders, I mean, they're well intentioned, sometimes they're not, but let's just say when they're well intentioned, like, yeah, I want to, you know, build our culture. I want to make sure it's scalable and sustainable. Sustainable. And people are happy. They're. They're thinking it's for them and they're not realizing it's actually for themselves as well. Because checking it off the box is one thing because it's almost like a, you know, HR or you know, like people, ops, whatever, that's a little bit too limiting as to what the real. And you already like I know we're cut from the same clock. What you just shared about what you believe when you unlock this with people and get them engaged because you care about them, when they realize it's actually about themselves as well. And I talk about a few examples in my book of like CEOs and other leaders in their own right that thought they were doing the right thing and said like, basically. So as an example. So David Kidder, he's in my book and he just sold his consulting company Bionic to Accenture within like a month or two ago. So big highlight for him. But what he was messing up on, you know, before with Bionic, he was that he thought he was pouring himself into the company. And the CFO called him one day and said, why are you ruining this company? And he's like, what are you talking about? You know, like, we just got around of funding. Like, we were just growing our employees like, like crazy. And yeah, and we're going gangbusters. Like, no, this company is going to fail because this company is all about you. And he was destroyed. Like, he's like, are you freaking kidding me? Like, I am giving my, you know, I'm just.

Taking time away from my family, you know, like, I'm pouring my energy and I'm not having any sleep. But the CFO just basically echoed what everyone else in the company was feeling of, it's all about David. It's all about his stakeholders or shareholders, in his view. And it was a wake up call. And sometimes we think we're doing the right thing, but until we get again real with ourselves, get authentic and actually listen to what people are saying and be open to it and even ask, because the CFO might have never called them and he might have gone down that path forever. But that reality check is, I think helped him get to this point of like, shit, I gotta get real with myself. And then therefore, like, you know, the latest news of selling to Accentures is pretty amazing. Like, he just didn't know he would get there, but he did it by realizing he had to do it with his team.

Yeah. And that's another example, I guess, of kind of what we were alluding to at the beginning, the beginning of the chat when we said that sometimes you could be so focused on the money that you can just forget that there's these, you know, other components that.

You know. And this isn't to say that the money's not important because I also have an issue with, you know, people are saying, you know, that, oh, money is, you know, not Important and do things, you know, purely for love. And it's. Well, okay, but, you know, money is important to people, and.

Yeah.

And so you can't, you know, you can't throw that out of the picture completely.

Yeah, exactly. Well, that's why in the wheel of wholeness, financials are part of it. Yeah, exactly. You know, it's just part of the equation. It's not the whole pie, but it is a piece. Yeah.

One fun thing that I've challenged leaders to do sometimes is I say, you know, once you sit in a room and I want you to just have. Have a lot of fun doing this. Just brainstorm and put together the company culture, which is so incredible that if people heard of it, they would leave your company and run to it. Just, you know, what is that company culture that people would actually leave for if they got wind of it and heard about it? What are all the things. How strong would it have to be in order to have that effect, you know, and actually pull people out of the company? They're like, okay, well, and then, of course, obviously, then you say, well, okay, well, why don't you build that company culture?

Yeah.

And then. Oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, maybe we could build that ourselves. So.

Fun ways to kind of, like, push people to kind of think outside of the box, even though that they're actually capable of, you know, creating things. Maybe they don't really realize.

Very true. One of the things that just to build on what you said in terms of, like, imagining that this week, again, like, I know you like to be practical and tactical. One of the things that we do is it's culture as a animal or culture as a car. So when you have that, like, visioning exercise of, when you're asking use of, like, what's the culture you want to create, it actually makes it more, like, tangible. When you compare it to, like, what kind of animal do you want to be like? Or what kind of car would you be? Like, what kind of car are you now? And what kind of car do you want to be? So example right now we're like, you know, a Ford truck, because we're sturdy. Like, we're operational. Like, we get stuff done. I've been around for a long time, but we want to be a Tesla. And, like, what. We want to be innovative. We want to, like, be ahead of, like, the curve and just, like, just be in our own box. You know, things that when you get those kind of visuals, it gets creative, but it gets also specific. And in terms of the attitudes that you would used to describe those things. But anyway, just wanted to build to what you just shared. Yeah.

Love it. Okay. To give people another little tangible thing on the. On the way out here, I would love if you could share. Okay. So for the person who has their team or who has their company or even just like, their family, whatever their kind of unit of people is, if you were to share just one high leverage success secret, one tool which can help them elevate that culture in a nonlinear way. Like, it's just. It's a leverage point, what's the one thing that you'd recommend? Knowing that it won't be one size fits all, but feeling that it would probably hit home for a lot of people. What would it be?

Mm.

I. I'm a big believer. And, like, I'm a big believer in learning, and I'm a big believer in the answers are within ourselves. And not to sound like, you know, this cheesy Mariah Carey song of, like, we're all our own hero, but I think that this tool has been helpful. And it's actually just two questions that need to be answered at the same time. What's in it for me? And what's in it for all? So if you are able to answer those questions, a lot of times you just answer the first one or the second one, but not simultaneously. And then that actually helps build the picture of how do we make this a triple win for everyone, not just for our customers, our employees, but also, as we're thinking bigger of our purpose of societal and planetary impact. If we care about the globe.

That's a tool that we've been. That I've been big about is just, like, really simple. Make sure you answer both questions, not.

Just one, and at the same time.

Right. At the same time, Yes.

I don't know how you died.

Well, you know, in the same session.

No, I know.

You have to be, like, this amazing. I don't know. It wouldn't even be like a ventriloquist. No. You can actually do it. Anyway, Jen is really, really cool to talk to you, as I. Yeah, yeah. I've been a. Been a big fan behind the scene, the scenes of what you've been doing. And I think it's super cool, super needed, having a big impact on the world. Super excited once again to read Beyond Happiness when it's out. And it's out in October again, right? October. Yeah.

Yes. October 12th. Not that I'm counting the days, but yes.

And if anybody. Given how amazing your work is, and I highly vouch for if anybody wants to get in touch with you and talk on the kind of business consultancy side of things. How do they reach out?

Yeah. So delivering happiness.com but also for the book launched, just launched jenlim.com j e n n l I m.com if you just want to shoot me a message, would love to entertain any random maslow jokes and comments that you might have or questions, of course. But yeah, cool.

All right, thanks a ton, Jen. Really, really happy that you're on the show today.

No, thank you for having me. I hope you have another Coke Zero on the way for a little break.

I will, I will.

Cool.

All right, see you soon, Jen. Bye. Bye.

Okay, bye.

Hope you enjoyed that discussion and I know you're going to absolutely love the next one as well. It's with John Lee Dumas talking about his newest book and all the incredible things that you can be learning to increase your financial awareness and wealth. And I know you'll love that. Just click on the link right here and I'll see you there.