How the Co-Founder of Netflix created a Multi-Billion Dollar Brand | Marc Randolph

Chill, relax. You do not need to know what you're gonna do right away. Hick, two or maybe three things that if they can get these right, all the rest won't matter.

I am thrilled to have on the show today Marc Randolph, co founder and the founding CEO of Netflix. I think a few people know that brand. Mark, welcome to the show.

Well, thanks very much. Pleasure to be here.

And we were just talking about our competing bookshelves and I said that, well, I'll have to move some over right after I do the edits, that they look a little bit more balanced. So.

To celebrate this show, I actually just binged on Netflix.

I'm glad that you made the exception in your normal habits to try and.

Exactly. I just, I literally, I actually thought it would be quite funny to do that. So for the hour before this, I went upstairs and I watched some old Breaking Bad episodes. Why not, right?

Yeah, sure.

Yeah, exactly. Now, you've done tons, obviously, aside from Netflix. Definitely going to be talking about Netflix. You've also started a new. You also have your, you know, your podcast, which flows from your book. That will never work. You told me a little bit about it. I thought that was amazing, what you just told me. So please, can you expand upon that, Tell us about this new podcast.

Well, you know, I'm one of those people who kind of always likes to be challenged. So I like to plunge into things I know nothing about and figure it out. And that was. I decided that would be a podcast this time, but it sprang from something pretty organic, which is that for years, pretty much ever since I left Netflix, I've been spending time working with other early stage entrepreneurs, basically trying to give them the confidence, the nudge, the tough love, whatever it is they need to try and take their business to the next step. And I would do that in the phone, but what I realized is people would be calling me up and asking similar questions. And I said, well, listen, there should be a way to make this a bit more scalable. I'm going to start recording some of these conversations, and then if someone else calls in, I'll say, hey, listen to this conversation. And I found out something interesting about it, which is, you know, first of all, that people did find it helpful. A lot of entrepreneurs struggle with the same thing. There's some very, very common stumbling blocks that we all face. The second thing that was great was that it turns out that people really appreciated finding out that other people were in the same place they were. You know, entrepreneurship at its heart is a lonely thing. You're trying to solve problems that haven't been solved before, you're doing it, for the most part by yourself. And letting people know there's a community of people who are all working on the same sort of thing was valuable. But the other unexpected part was that it turns out these conversations were entertaining. I mean, these people have really interesting, eclectic businesses from all kinds of strange backgrounds. And it began going into these really interesting places, you know. And so the podcast is essentially me mentoring other early stage entrepreneurs.

Amazing. And what's. So what's one thing? From the episodes that you've done so far and from all the entrepreneurs that you've already.

Mentored and worked with, what's one thing that you would say that entrepreneur that most entrepreneurs do, but that they shouldn't be doing?

Oh, there's a. Listen, I can make a list. We could go on for hours about that list, but probably one of the common ones is people are too. Are not focused. Inherently, when you're starting a company, there is a hundred things that are broken, There's a hundred things that need work. And one of the errors is to believe I have to do all of them. And what you end up doing is having 100 things, all of which are done about 10% well. And what I've realized is a common denominator. Common denominator, not just in my own startups, but in the ones that I do see. Where people are successful getting past these early stages is they have this ability to pick two or maybe three things that if they can get these right, all the rest won't matter.

Yeah, it's really a form of business triage. And it's hard because a lot of the times, the things that are the critical components are not the ones that are obvious. They're not the ones that are crying out the loudest. They're not the ones where the fire is the hottest. They could be sitting quietly on the side. And you've got to have this intuition to recognize that's the one and then have the discipline and the courage to focus on them at the expense of all others. And what makes it tricky is they're different in every business.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, absolutely. But it's. As you're talking there, just. You just reminded me of. I think the book was called the Four Disciplines of Execution. And I think in that book they talk about this framing question, which goes something along the lines of when you're looking at all the things that you could do if. If you were to suppose that everything were to remain the Same just as it is right now. Where's the one area or what's the one thing where change would have the most positive impact? And. Yeah, and it just. I connect that immediately to what you're saying, because it's. What you're talking about is like two to three things. What we're ultimately talking about is like leverage. Right. Where to focus our time to gain leverage.

Yeah.

And.

Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny because when people sometimes like to feel they came up with some unique truism just to demonstrate how clever and smart they are, but I actually think the opposite. I think when you come up with something and someone else goes, oh, this person calls it that or this person calls it that, that's when you know you've actually stumbled on something which truly does resonate and truly is a positive factor. Uniqueness, in many ways is not. Is somewhat overrated. So I think the fact that other people have recognized the same thing is actually quite confirming.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Good thing. So that's interesting. So let's apply that to Netflix and its beginnings. So there was a myriad of things that you could have been focused on to get Netflix started. What were, in your mind, the two to three things? As a co founder, founding CEO, how did you narrow your focus?

So what was clear to us was that.

The challenge for Netflix was that we were launching a DVD by mail business. So this was not streaming. This was taking movies and literally mailing them to people who on a dvd. So it was a pretty ridiculous idea.

But it required one thing to work. There actually had to be people who own DVD players and you had to find a way to reach them. If you did not have customers, this would not obviously work at all. It was not as if we were entering into the VCR VHS space where 90 some odd percentage of households owned a player. So the challenge for us, the one thing we had to get right, was figure out some mechanism to actually reach people. So in this case, it was marketing. How do we acquire customers? And the secondary one was this differentiation that we knew we were going to be going up against Blockbuster, that every Blockbuster was going to be basically a stone's throw away from anyone's house. And we had to give them some compelling reason why they would want to wait for us to mail them a movie when they could drive down the street and get it. And so the second thing we focused very much on was, I won't call it content, but on fulfilling this promise that we would make it easier to discover great stories for people.

Amazing. So on that first one, then going a little bit deeper on that. So customer acquisition and the marketing. So if we take that another level down. So. So the two to three things there that brought the focus to that bucket of activities, what did you do there?

So what was the challenge here is that we realized that most marketing techniques weren't going to work. You certainly couldn't use general advertising because then 99.99% of your money would be wasted. Since so few household owned a DVD player. And so the first strategy was to find people where they congregated, which at the time, this was in 1998, was in user groups, was in these unique little clusters, communities on the web. And we had someone, and he called himself the director of black ops because what he would do was infiltrate these user groups and he'd begin posting things like, hey, I just heard about this really cool company which supposedly has every single DVD available, called Netflix. Has anyone heard of it? And then he'd go to. And then he engaged in the conversation. And of course now that's a fairly common and frowned upon thing, but at the time was our way of spreading our word among that community. But the big breakthrough was realizing that we shared a problem with the DVD manufacturers because they were desperately trying to sell DVD players. And their customers were saying, why would I buy a DVD player when there aren't any DVDs available? My blockbuster doesn't have a single DVD and the DVD, most places weren't stocking DVDs because there's no DVD players. And we realized that we could solve this chicken and egg problem for them. And we approach, we. I approached these consumer electronics companies with this offer. We would put a coupon in the box that everybody who buys your DVD player will immediately get 10 free rentals so that they'd be able to communicate if you buy this player, there's content available. And I make it sound like, oh, I just went out and did this. But it was brutal because what you have is Silicon Valley company, grossly negative balance sheet, barely in business for, been in business for weeks, not even months, and wanting to do a deal with some of the most conservative companies in the world and convincing them to put a sticker on the box or a coupon in the box required that I travel to the wilds of suburban New Jersey office parks, camped out and traipsing from Toshiba to Sony to Panasonic, using all the powers of persuasion, I had to convince him to do a deal with us. And eventually, though we eventually had a coupon and virtually every single DVD player sold. And that really, I won't say it solved the problem, but it allowed us to have a customer flow that allowed us to then turn our attention to, okay, what's the next big crisis?

And that's a great segue to. Because you started offering something different compared to what Blockbuster was doing in terms of your distribution model and not having to rely on so much in terms of bricks and mortar and all of that. But then, of course, there's another industry crisis which emerges, which is the DVD becomes dead or its death is on the horizon. Can you take us through? Because that's just an incredible transition for the company to have navigated. And can you take us through that.

From DVD to streaming? I assume you're assuming too.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, so first of all, this was basically, yes, if streaming is on the horizon, we're in a rowboat. In other words, that horizon is.

Almost infinitely far away. And so I'll be quite honest that there was not this consideration on day one. Oh, my gosh, what are we going to do? It's just imminent. That's not to saying that that wasn't a fairly common opinion. And in fact, the reason why my book is called that Will Never Work and the reason why the podcast is called that Will Never Work and the reason why the Clubhouse Room is that Will Never Work, et cetera, was because that is what I have always heard, but I specifically heard it all the time when I was pitching people this idea of doing DVD rental by mail. And to your point, there was two things that everyone brought up when they said, why won't this work? And one of them was Blockbuster, of course, is one in every corner. But the other one was dvd. That's a digital media. Just a matter of time before everyone is downloading movies or stream movies. Who's going to want DVDs then? And here's the thing is they were right. Just like you're right that it's inevitable that eventually the DVD is going to go away and it's going to transition to streaming. But I was not so sure it was going to be as imminent as people thought. There was a lot of reasons why this horizon was pretty far off in the. In the distance.

And when you say far off, when you say far off in the distance, like what. What was the differential between how far you thought it was versus how. How far everyone else thought it was?

I mean, I think a lot of people said this is a simple. A pretty simple matter. It's digital, so you just download it and, you know, it's not so simple. I mean, first of all, there's digital rights management issues, because the industry is still reeling from being naps, if I can use that as a verb. In addition, the bandwidth to the home is terrible, and so it's not going to be easy to do right now. And number three, that for the times that if you do have bandwidth to the home, it's terminating at your office, your home office, it's not terminating in your living room, on your television. But the biggest one is Hollywood is almost as conservative as the consumer electronics industry. And they were saying, why on earth would we want to give away movies digitally and risk the rest of this? So for what I get, I make. I can make a million or $2 a year and risk $8 billion a year. So there was a lot of reasons. People were cynical. I mean, some people, they were saying, no, it's a matter of months. I was pretty sure it was a matter of years. But that was the challenge. The challenge of how do you manage a transition which you know is coming, but you have no idea when it's coming? And for us, it meant how do you position the company correctly? Because we could have come out and said, netflix, the world's fastest shipper of plastic or whatever, the positioning was around DVDs, which would have been a great positioning for a time when DVDs were almost impossible to find. But to your point, eventually that's going to go away. But it also would have been equally flawed to say Netflix is the streaming solution, because it would have been a solution which was dripping one drop at a time for years. So instead, one of the cleverest things I think we did was position ourselves as delivery agnostic, which is we're going to position ourselves as the place to discover great stories, because that works for DVD perfectly. But it also works when you're in streaming, and it will also work when you're in 10 or 15 years when we can beam it, I don't know, telepathically into your fillings or something like that. It means that the way you thought about Netflix, every piece of brand equity that we built in day, one week, one month, one year, one was equity that carried over. We were learning what customers liked, but we had to make it real, which was why we made the investment from day one, having every single DVD that was available, which is why we began to do all the work we did on doing the taste algorithm software. It's why we spent all this time on content. So that by the time that Horizon arrived nine years later that we were in a position where we already had tens of millions of very, very happy subscribers who didn't need to think about Netflix differently. It was, we're the same Netflix. You still come to us for what to watch. We're just giving you a different option of how to get it to you.

Yeah. And because you're still upholding what was. What was the vision or the purpose statement.

Again, it helped me discover great stories.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So since you're still true to that, the manifestation of it didn't matter as it changed over time.

And people, you know, with this current jumping to the present, where now you have dozens of companies who are all competing in the streaming business, Netflix's lead doesn't just come from the amount of dollars they spend on content. It comes from the fact that since 2007, so for 13, 14 years, we've had that experience of establishing a direct relationship with all of these consumers who think of us a certain way, whereas all the companies entering streaming for the first time have to begin figuring those things out starting now. So the head start is pretty significant.

In the fact that we've really had a chance to understand customers and build relationships with them.

Fantastic. And I just noticed this, like, maybe a couple of weeks ago or so on Netflix. It's probably been there for ages, and I only just noticed it now, but there was a little prompt next to the rating, and it just simply said, the more you rate, I think the better your recommendations are. I just thought that was clever because. Because I read that I had never rated, and I've been watching Netflix for years. I had never rated until I saw that prompt. And then the moment I saw that, I thought, oh, yeah, maybe I should suppress. And thumbs up or thumbs down. Right. And to get exactly what you're saying. So content that's a little bit more tailored to me. I love the. You know, I love the. I love the. When we were. When we were building Skype, our tagline was, the whole world can talk from free.

Right.

And it worked. And it was relatively true until we started to charge people for connecting to the telephony network.

But it was relatively true, and it was something that inspired us. And then.

Another example from my own life would be, after that, I built a chain of Mexican restaurant. And the.

The tagline there was, we weren't selling burritos. That's what all the competition was doing. We were making the world a more vibrant place. And of course, we did that through adding flavor to people's lives. And Various other things, but I'm just a huge fan of coming up with those.

It's almost like internal branding as well as external, where workforce is largely internal. Yeah.

I think it's more important to be branded internally because especially once the company begins to achieve some success. And there's lots of people. Because what you're looking for is people to be able to make independent judgments, but what's appropriate and what's not support what's not appropriate. And they need to have this filter. They can say, I have a choice. I'm literally sitting here composing something, and I can pick two words. I don't want to have to go ask my supervisor. I want to have an internal compass that tells me which is the more appropriate choice. And so having everyone understand what the real reason for being for an organization is, I think is a critical one. And those are good. It's the classic marketing challenge of saying, we're not in the trucking business, we're in the transportation business. We're not in the oil business, we're in the energy business. Because it allows you to be somewhat. I won't say future proof, but it certainly allows you to recognize change as it's happening and be prepared to adapt to it and recognize that you still stand for the same thing. You just have different ways of providing it.

Yeah, yeah. Wonderful, Wonderful. I want to connect back to your podcast. I want to connect back to, you know, that will never work and the work that you're doing with entrepreneurs. I think there's something particularly inspirational about you, which I can relate to as well, because I've just done, like, you know, a lot of, like, you know, quite random things, as I said, you know, Skype and then chain of Mexican restaurants. Very random. And the sky's really the limit. Right. With people's potential. But a lot of people don't truly appreciate that. And a lot of people think that you need certain. You have to have, like, a set of prerequisites in order to do something else. And to go back to you on this, I think a lot of people would be surprised to find out that your educational background, it wasn't based in business at all. Right.

It was a geology major.

Yeah, exactly. So geology. And you went to. Was it Hamilton College?

Hamilton Liberal Arts School.

Right, Liberal Arts school. I went to University of Illinois, Urbana Champaign. You know, it wasn't. It's a good school. It's not like an Ivy League school. And your first job, it was what, a sheet music company?

Cherry Line Music.

Yeah, yeah. And you were in charge of a mail order operation, Is that right?

Yeah, that. Which is a glorified way of saying I basically took self addressed stamped envelopes and stuck song lists in them and mailed them out. Yes, I was in charge of their mail order division.

Yes. Yeah, exactly. I mean one of my first jobs, like I literally, I stood at the door of a bar and kept unruly people from coming in and throwing the same people out. So it's.

Humble beginnings.

Certainly not at all related to top media empire company, a tech company as well. So how did you go from those beginnings to founding Netflix?

It's funny, I actually wrote a blog post for my blog of I don't know, maybe a month or two ago and which was basically kind of advice to young graduates, which was, chill, relax. You do not need to know what you're going to do right away. I mean, if you do, you're lucky. I do have some friends, you know, some of my kids friends, you know, they're six years old, I go, I want to be a veterinarian. And then holy crap, you know, 20 years later they're a veterinarian. But that is so unbelievably rare for the most of us. We stumble around gathering experiences until you end up in the right place. And listen, my background was no different. The job prior to me being the direct running the direct marketing division of the sheet music company was I was basically a gopher for the CEO. I mean now it has this glorified term which is called chief of staff. No, it's a gopher. You walk around behind somebody with a pad and every time they say, bill, get me those numbers on Wednesday. Wednesday. Make sure Bill gets in the numbers on Wednesday. Or when the CEO goes to them, I'll get back to you on Thursday. He'll make sure he gets back to. That was my job.

So this is not earth shattering stuff. This is not something you brag about, but wow, is it educational? I mean, the best possible thing you can do is if you want to be in some career and some business is not to pick the dream job and fight like crazy to get it. It's to get your foot in the door any way you can just so you can see what goes on. What do people really, what's the vocabulary? How do they organize, how do they accomplish things? And following a CEO around all day, I got to learn a lot about how someone like that thinks. But the real the break of the break was it was a music publishing company that had lots of divisions and they had this One division, which was a mail order division, which basically was in the back of every. And by the way, this is sheet music. This is little books that are like Beatles for auto harp or like Led Zeppelin for French horn, you know. And in the back of every songbook was a little tagline that said for a list of more great Cherryland songbooks and the self just stamped envelope to PO Box so and so. And then this job that I was dying to get, that I even asked the CEO could have, was basically when these stamped envelopes came in, I would xerox the list of the more great Jerry Lean songbooks and mail it to him. And if an order came back, I'd pick, pack it and ship it myself in the warehouse. But the thing is, you stumble onto stuff. And when I began doing that, I was transfixed and began experimenting. You know, it's what happens if we do a color Xerox. How about two pages? What if I do a catalog, a mailing? And basically taught myself direct response marketing and realized that at heart that deeply resonated with me, that the art and science combined of direct marketing spoke to me. And then I spent the next 10 years as a direct marketing guy. I started my first three startups. Whereas mail order companies and magazines and mail order companies, of course, is direct response. You're sending out catalogs, you're doing direct response.

Mark, can you just to help our listeners, can you just give a simple definition of direct response marketing and what that actually means?

Certainly marketing basically is trying to communicate with customers, to incent them to do something. But largely when you have marketing, like on the side of a bus or on a billboard or a space advertisement, you're just trying to plant an impression in someone's head and eventually they'll get around to doing it in direct response. You want them to respond right then and there directly back to you. And so what it does is make it measurable so you can actually do tremendously sophisticated experimentation. And when I eventually was doing direct marketing for a big software company, I would just melt people's minds because I would say, no, listen, we've done this test and this blue envelope responds better than the red envelope. And the software engineers would say, that makes no sense. Why would it make a difference in making a decision of what software to buy, Whether the mailing piece came in a blue envelope or red and volt. This is ridiculous. And I go, well, let's look at the data. And that would then cause this creative, this huge cognitive dissonance in their head about it. Can't be true, but the data but. And has exploded.

It's like they can't suspend their disbelief.

Correct. But that's why it was fascinating and it's interesting Talking about these 10 years in direct marketing because you go, what? What's the point of that? Well, the point of it was twofold. Number one is I loved it. I was following this passion. It gave me this outlet for this deep analytical thinking, which I like, coupled with the creativity that goes in direct marketing. But when, wow, look what happened. All of a sudden the Internet comes along.

10 years doing direct response marketing, realizing what it's capable of, what it's incapable of, and sees this new medium where you can sell things and get direct responses back and do personalization to a level we had only dreamed of in the direct marketing industry. And I said, that's where I'm going.

That's a beautiful segue because it's like, because it just goes. It fits so perfectly with Netflix's approach and how it went about marketing. And also too, when you think about direct response to what you're saying, I mean, you know, when you think about that from an Internet perspective, it's. It's kind of like, yeah, duh, of course you need to a B test and you know, change colors and graphics and statements and all that stuff. But what's beautiful about this is that few people probably realize that was going on in the physical world in direct response marketing well before the Internet was even thought that.

That's why, that's why I love the fact that you brought up the fact. What were you doing before beforehand? Because this whole message about chill, relax is you never know what your life is preparing you for and what. And what the skill is not predicting 10 years in advance what skill I want, let's go to school for that skill. It's recognizing an opportunity that may match your skill set. And yeah, and that's what happened. And having this ability to really understand testing, to really understand ab, to really understand what makes people respond. And that allowed me to take advantage of this new medium for it. But here's the other thing. This to show you that I'm not necessarily 2%, I'm probably maybe 13 or 14%, which is that I mentioned offhand that I launched magazines, and magazines have a big component for selling magazines called subscription. And so I really understood subscription marketing as well.

This is so good. Yeah, keep going.

And, and you. Well, of course you jumped ahead to where this story is going. But the reason I say I kick myself is that when we launched Netflix. It never occurred to me that I could do subscriptions as well. That took a year and a half for me.

Oh, really?

Test it. Yeah. When you look back and you go, what's the biggest contributions? I shouldn't say that. What are some of the real breakthroughs that Netflix pioneered? And certainly streaming is a big one, but I think that almost a bigger one is that we were one of the first companies to demonstrate you could apply a subscription model to something other than magazines or record and tape clubs, that you could actually sell things which were completely non intuitive to sell via subscription. And if you look what's happening now, certainly in the software industry and even in the consumer package goods industry, we're seeing subscription models being applied almost universally. Very, very few software companies launch now that aren't SaaS businesses.

Yeah.

So yes, these things, you know, you never, you go circulate magazine circulation. Some things end up being useful that you never anticipated.

Yeah. It's so awesome. And I love what you're talking about too, when it comes to, hey, chill, you don't need to. I don't know if that was intended, you know, Netflix and chill. No, that wasn't actually. But that's fun. But I thought that was pretty clever if it was, but it wasn't. Fine. Cool. But when you were talking about.

Oh, I lost my train of thought.

Yeah.

When you're talking about, yeah, chilling, like not needing to figure it out. And I think too, for those listening and you know, it's not that you don't even need to figure it out in the first instance. You don't need to have it all figured out for the whole way through because you just need to just keep.

Case in point. I graduated with a degree in finance. I worked at a bar after that. Then I ended up working as a consultant with McKinsey and Company. Didn't think that was going to happen. Suddenly that happened, then helped build Skype, then built a chain of Mexican restaurants. And now I invest and advise in various entrepreneurs and companies. And the other day somebody asked me, how did you plan that all out? And I laughed so hard as I planned that all out. There was no planning. It just kind of happened. And you respond to the opportunities you respond to. Oh, this interests me. I want to really learn about this, acquire the knowledge, acquire whatever is needed to get going within that area. And then you try it out and you see what works and, and you kind of just write you. It's almost like, it's almost like you're taking a direct response marketing approach to your own life. You just ab test and you see, where's the blue envelope? Right.

You just made a connection that I've never really made before for me, which is I have a big believer that as a young person, earth, who cares? At any age, you shouldn't be necessarily trying to overly plan your life, that you just need to be open to experiences and recognizing how to apply those experiences. But it's the exact same advice that I give using different words to entrepreneurs, which is that you do not need to know where this business is going. And in fact, the more time you try and figure out in advance where it's going, all you're doing is stalling the process of actually learning where it wants to go on its own. Yeah.

And I've never really made that connection before, but it's exactly the same thing. Stop dreaming about what your company is going to become because you're almost inevitably wrong. You can't. It's impossible. They have their own life. There's too many forks in the road to predict them. You've got to just start and see where it goes.

It's almost like as we're talking about it right now, it's almost like it echoes just, you know, Darwin's natural selection. Right. Where. You know what I mean, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Where there's no real. There's no, at a unit level, there's no intelligent decision making as to which choices being made in the natural selection maze. But the intelligence is kind of in the collection of choices and in the system and it kind of all works out. Right.

When I mentioned earlier that what I loved about direct marketing and direct response was the combination of art and science, it's the exact same thing that I love about the entrepreneurship because when you're testing something, you know, explicitly or empirically, whatever the word is, that the blue envelope is 0.003% better than the green envelope. But what you don't know is why should I? Should I have tested envelope color? Should I have tested envelope size? Should I have tested the wording? In other words, I have 16,000 colors I could have chosen. Why those two? So there is this element of saying, let's try the newt with a blue skin on it. In other words, you don't know which of these genetic mutations are going to be the ones which do give the creature a leg up in the world. But you can narrow down just to make some educated guesses. And I think that's what makes it a skill, is that an entrepreneur has this sense of what should I try. I don't know what's going to work. In fact, I know I'm probably going to be wrong, but I can narrow my choices and hopefully get close.

Oh, man. Okay, now, my brain is. Because you just. When you said the word elements, I literally thought of, like, the periodic table. This is going to get a little bit far out there. But I just thought. I thought for a second, I was.

Like, well, we're building a unified principle of something.

There's something here. Listen to this. Okay, there's something here. So my mind just exploded because I just thought, matter is neither created nor destroyed. We have a set of elements. And then I thought of music for some reason, and I thought, if you can have a collection of instruments or a collection of elements, and I can make totally different music from the same set, I can have all the world's instruments in the same place. I can make a totally different set of music from the set of instruments. What are the two variables that change in terms of how the music sounds? It will be which elements that I choose and the sequencing of them. And then I think from a business point of view, in its simplest form, it's, well, what are the different elements or the factors that you're going to put into your business, and what's the sequencing of them? And at a elemental level, if I will, if I may, it's. It comes down to that, right? It's sequencing and choices. And.

It'S more sophisticated than that, too, because there are these incremental.

Tests, if I could. Experiments you run, which are largely limited to the tool, the choices you have, and you're trying to rearrange them and change the order. Order and change the timing and all those pieces. But then there's occasionally breakthrough thinking where someone says, why do I have to have 11 notes in a scale? Or whatever it is. 12 notes in a scale. Yeah. Yeah. What would happen if I did? Or, you know, or even in music, you know, why does it always have to be 4, 4, 3, 4 time? You know that.

Yeah.

Stuff it's like.

Or Philip Glass at an extension. And so you end up having this combination of breakthrough thinking combined with iterative process of refinement. Yeah, it's a fast.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I was going to say, provided that the market will accept it. So I just thought, I'm going to start a new football league next year, and instead of 100 yards, you know, it's going to be 120 yards for the field. But I don't know if breaking that model will work.

Oh, that's interesting, isn't it? Which it goes down to why. Why that? Is that because a hundred yards is the ideal. Was that a random look, I don't know the history of football, but for example, did they iterate to that? Because believe me, there's some weird, weird fucking sports out there that and you. And you play them and you go, God, it actually works pretty well. How did they.

Yeah, exactly.

Is that luck?

Anyway, that's fascinating. Let's trust that the sports world has their individual kind of dimensions and rules and all that figured out. Now, you mentioned earlier, you talked about, you anecdotally talked about your kids. I have a 16 year old and a 7 year old boy. Two boys. You have three kids, right?

I have three kids. I have two boys and a girl.

Okay.

How.

Okay, be real here. What was work life balance like in the beginning days of Netflix? And how did that change? Or did that change as the company evolved?

So just to answer a question, you got to understand something, which is that Netflix wasn't my first startup. Netflix is my fifth startup. I was 38, so largely before I was married. And so I was able to. And I listen and when I use the words correct them all, it's personal, everyone's sense of what balance is. But for me, I recognize probably in my late 20s, early 30s, that I didn't like the way I was going because I was working all the time.

And that was fine when I was by myself. But all of a sudden I had a girlfriend, the woman who's now my wife. And I kind of dawned on me that it is not really the basis of a good relationship here. If she's getting the time that's left over after I pour everything I've got into my work.

The other thing about me is that I was lucky enough to recognize really early on that there's this. That being outdoors is a huge part of what makes me whole and what fulfills me. And I don't mean just going for a walk in the park. I mean, you know, alpine climbing or whitewater kayaking. Doing something or mountain bike. Yeah, basically outdoors. Chance of a visit to the hospital I'm in.

But that kind of stuff is not what you do. I got 10 minutes for my next call. I think I'll head up to and paddle the Noatak River. It doesn't work like that. If you want to be able to get out. Especially when you have a startup, which is demanding all of your time. Especially when you have little kids who are demanding all your time, you've got to be good at it. But the work life balance for me was something that I recognized I needed to put a lot of effort into was not just going to happen. And so I really tried very, very hard to make sure I was present for my wife. Made tried very hard to make sure I was present for my kids and had to modify how do you run a startup and make time for that and be able to get out and do the outdoor stuff that I wanted to do. And I think a lot of the cultural things that have since been kind of popularized at Netflix came not from grand design, but from necessity.

Yeah, I have still to this day, I have several alarms. I put little phrases in them on my phone, but I have one that goes off at 6:30pm every day and it says world's best husband and father. And it's just to prompt the question, how would the world's best husband and father walk through that door Right now, I'm not the world's best husband and father, but it's just to prompt that question. Right.

Because when you take intentionality into that segment of the day and you're just way more deliberate with your actions, and I've found you're way more measured in your response. Because look, we all know when you have a family, there's things that happen at home that will kind of.