Erik Torenberg and guests debate whether expert-led global governance would become tyranny, arguing populism protects civil liberties. They trace how tech innovation and woke movements have risen together since World War II, opposing communism and fascism respectively, and discuss why large-scale systems fail when hypocrisy spreads.
Chapters
Well, just to confirm, you're in a secure location, right?
Mm-hmm.
Perfect. I'm Erik Torenberg, and this is my podcast, Upstream. On this season of Upstream, you'll hear from Marc Andreessen.
I work with people from all these different backgrounds. It's just absolutely spectacular. I would not want to live in a system that would somehow decide that was a bad idea and send them all back to wherever that, you know, that would be horrible. Like, that would be awful. You know, look, at the same time, do I think it's a good idea to have a single system of global governance where there's a set of experts that, like, determine everything and, like, everything is equal and everything is the same? Like, no, that sounds like hell.
Yeah, what if they're experts and fact-checkers?
Yes, the missing link is the fact-checkers, because they can make sure the experts are on the straight and narrow. David Sacks.
Well, who defines social progress? That's up to democratic majorities to define. And so what that elitist view is that you've just described is the rationalization for a small number of elites who have institutional power to suppress the will of of the majority and interfere in elections. And then of course those very same people will puff out their chests and say, we're the protectors and defenders of democracy. No, if you truly believed in democracy, you would allow the people to have a voice and then let the chips fall where they may in terms of how they vote. The reason why I've become more populist is because it aligns with civil liberties.
Wokes are focused on moral innovation. Techs are focused on tech innovation. And in fact, Both tech and woke are like 2 sinusoidal parallel movements that both arose like sort of after World War II, whether it's like desegregation for the wokes and the transistor, right? You can kind of see moments, you know, internet boots up in the '60s protests and then the microcomputer and PCs in the '80s. And both PCs were in the late '80s and early '90s, right? Tech and woke have sort of been growing out of the post-1945 Dispensation. And tech is actually very opposed to communism, and woke is very opposed to fascism.
The question of why we have difficulty building requires, among other things, a really deep engagement with what has gone wrong when we have built before. But I think most people are hypocrites across a lot of different dimensions. It's to say that it should inspire the generosity we bring to our own inconsistencies. Make sure to subscribe on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.
