Ep 63 Recap & lessons w Youpreneur Chris Ducker | #MUIYB Mike Up In Your Business Podcast
In this episode of the #MUIYB Mike Up In Your Business podcast, hosts Mike Michalowicz, Amy, and Jeremy Schlotta debrief their recent interview with entrepreneur Chris Ducker. They discuss Ducker’s expatriate journey from England to the Philippines and back, highlighting how he leveraged the Philippines’ low‑cost, highly educated labor to build a company that runs without his daily involvement. The hosts explore the broader entrepreneurial mindset, noting that over 95 % of founders claim they want a self‑running business but in practice remain dependent on themselves, which they attribute to a limiting mindset that caps growth. They touch on the emotional “empty‑nest” feeling when a business no longer needs the founder, and relate it to Mike’s own experience writing Clockwork. The conversation then shifts to scaling through derivative products—especially the Profit First book series—and building a community that can sustain the brand without the founder’s direct input. Mid‑episode, the hosts break into a light‑hearted blues‑music trivia game, testing each other on historical blues facts and band associations, adding humor and camaraderie. The episode closes with a call‑to‑action for listeners to rate the podcast and engage via email.
Chapters
Foreign.
You gotta do it right.
Yeah. If you don't do it right, it's just horrible. It's horrifying.
Talking about horrible. My interviewing technique's horrible. And that's what we're gonna discover on this episode of Mic Up. In your business, I interview a dear friend, Chris Ducker, the entrepreneur of you man. And he's an expat from England who moved down to the Philippines, started a business that has hundreds of employees, and then is now an ex expat. He returned back to England. It's an interesting story. So listen on it. Chris Ducker, a real, real mother friend. Mother's friend.
You know what's funny? When I was at the social media conference, I was in line at Starbucks to get a coffee, and he was behind me. If I would know we were gonna interview him, I would have struck up a conversation.
But, yeah, okay, cool.
Handsome bloke.
And a lot of these authors, you know, you can't talk to them.
Yeah.
They're unapproachable.
Look at me, look at me.
I'm the best. He. No, he's an extraordinary guy. And like he said in the interview, we've known each other for approaching a decade before ever meeting face to face.
Wow.
So the first time we met the face, face to face, we were both speaking at the same conference. I was speaking later on. He already spoke, so he was in the audience. I was walking in and I'm like, oh, my God, it's Chris Ducker. In the whole.
That's when you made the scene and you diverted attention away from.
What the hell's going on? Hundreds of people just looking at us. Who are these two guys?
Leave it to you.
Yeah, I know. I'm such a. I'm so. I lack cognitive awareness of people around me. I just. I think it's all about me.
Is that why we're friends? Because I do the same. I lack. I lack some awareness.
You.
Yes, yes, you have.
What's the least aware thing you've ever done that you can think of?
I can't even talk about it.
Oh, is that embarrassing?
Yeah. Yeah.
I think guys generally have more. A greater lack of awareness around them than women. I do in. Particularly in loud voices. Like, I'm a loud voice guy. Like, I hit a certain volume and I don't know why. I don't even realize the volume and speed I'm speaking at. I have a female friend. She. She's an even louder talker and she has no dial. No dial.
Yeah, well, that's. I live with that Too. Christopher, I feel like he's just unaware of his volume at all times. And yeah, yeah, yeah.
I can impede on other people.
I got worried about that regarding this weekend. So it was one of my good friends birthdays, and because of COVID I guess there's a. Hospitals. Yeah. Hotels that are struggling. So we were in center city Philly, and there's this beautiful area with a courtyard, and you can rent out this hotel. It's like a carriage house. Like, it's very old, and you get the whole place. And we had, like, a bunch of people, so it was cool to hang out. And then you're just surrounded by these skyscrapers. And towards the middle of the night, the girls start getting really loud. And we're on the balcony, and they're just like. My buddy's like, oh, this is gonna be a problem. And I said, do you want to sheepdog them? You want to sheepdog him? And he's like, yeah. He's like, let's sheepdog him. So we started corralling around him, and they're like, all right, guys, come on, let's go, let's go.
And it worked.
And it works.
Seconds.
And then you all turn into collies.
Yeah.
Where they need to be like, wait, what are you doing?
No, we're not going inside.
Oh, they caught onto it.
I do get loud when I'm. When I'm drinking too much. That's true. It's true.
Yeah. But, you know, you don't drink too much nowadays. I mean, that was more of a high school college thing, I think.
Yeah, you're true. That's true.
So let's talk about Chris Ducker. He's got a drinking problem, by the way. That's why I wanted to kind of squash that question.
Yeah, sure.
I want the world to know about.
How much you don't really want them to know. Yeah, no, of course.
One thing I thought was interesting was that a. He went to the Philippines because he wanted to get out of England. Sounds like he went to England because he wanted to get out of the Philippines. I thought the interesting dynamic that over time, our interests change and what's appealing today isn't necessarily appealing tomorrow. So I thought that was just fascinating about his journey.
His whole journey was really, really interesting, I have to tell you. I'm sorry, this is a little off topic, but the fact that we're not using slack at work is getting me a little nervous. Everybody knows Christopher's company uses slack, and he's using slack, and. And I'm like, oh, no. Are we missing something else like.
Yeah. He was so jacked about it.
No. Jeremy.
Yeah, it's. It's. It's like Voxer on steroids. So it. Yeah. You can just never get away. I mean it's just like a text chain just. Just throw through an app.
Yeah.
Different for different categories of work.
Categories. But anyway, yeah, I did love his journey and I think you know, that's the growth thing too. The way we change what. What it is we're after and what we're. What satisfies and. And what inspires. And it sounds like that was his progression through that the journey. England to the Philippines and then in route getting a new wife and you know, starting a family and stuff like that. Really cool story.
Yeah, I think it was a cool story. I love that he grew his business to the point where it just runs itself. It sounds like he does. Does is required a 0.0% of the time.
Right.
And that was by design. I like to. And he really didn't talk about in the interview so much but he went into a cheaper labor market. You know, the Philippines was at the point such an inexpensive labor based, highly educated. He's able to by. By putting himself there. He's able to understand the culture and then deliver a service at a very low cost. Point to him.
Right.
And become competitive. And it's still that way in the Philippines. But I thought that was particularly smart.
Yeah, I was going to say that too. That's particularly brilliant. The whole thing about, you know, he's. He's really made himself non essential to the business. It runs successfully without him. What do you think is the percentage of entrepreneurs who are actually striving for that compared to ones who just like no, this is what I love to do. This is.
Oh, that's a great question.
Do you find more on one than.
The other verbally say they're doing it, but their actions indicate otherwise. Like you know, I want my business to run itself and the behaviors. So I would say at least pick a number.
Yeah.
Over 95% of people actually do not strive to the business to run itself even though they're saying it and they don't even aware of this. But all their behaviors indicate they want to be in the business in some capacity. They want the business depend upon them. Because honestly I think there's a reason why only I think it's 3% of businesses ever surpass a million dollars in revenue or something. It's because the owner has entrenched her herself or himself in the business.
Right.
And therefore, they're gumming up the works.
Are they.
They're going up the works. And if we really strive not to work in the business, we'd have far more than 3%. The threshold is. Million dollar threshold or whatever. The thing is, it's not this magical threshold. It's not difficult to get past it through our activities. It's difficult to get past it when our mindset says that we have to do the activity. So I think it's a mindset thing.
Gotcha. Gotcha.
I wonder if there's like a phenomenon similar to empty nest syndrome with entrepreneurs where.
Oh, yeah.
Once, you know, you feel like you're not needed, then it's like this weird depression because you spent so long working on this thing and raising this child.
Yeah.
And all of a sudden it's not.
Yeah. That phenomenon is very real.
Yeah. Well, you had a taste of it, Mike, right, when you did your first Clockwork test.
Yeah. So. Yeah. So my own experience was that I said I wanted the business to run itself, but the businesses were always dependent upon me for some capacity. It's when I started writing Clockwork that I had a conscious realization, oh, my gosh, I'm keeping myself in the business. That's when I took the first fortification. And what I didn't expect was this visceral, emotional feeling that the business didn't need me. And I was fearful. I didn't know what to do.
Now.
That was a scary feeling.
Yeah. Yeah.
Once I reframed it and said, oh, my gosh, now the business is a source for employing other people and growing and scaling, and I can serve in a capacity that brings me joy, but also not have the business dependent upon me. That's the ultimate business because they can keep growing.
Right.
And ever since that point, we've grown the fastest and healthiest.
That's true. It's funny. That's. That's funny. We've grown a lot since that moment.
So according a lot. And it's not like I think the feeling that many entrepreneurs have myself too, is like, oh, my God, the business doesn't need me. I'm insignificant. I'm nothing. No. The realization is in the regards of business, I'm another component for the business. But I'm not the hub of the business, just like we are components of this business. By giving the freedom to realize I'm just a part of this business, there can be many parts to it, and it doesn't have to go through me. It just became opening. And how I empower myself is like this can solve entrepreneurial poverty in a much bigger way if many people are doing this and it can provide jobs. Most people don't want to be entrepreneurs. That's actually a good thing because it's really freaking hard and a lot of people fail. You don't want it to be.
I don't want to be an entrepreneur.
Yeah. But I suspect you want a job. I'm speaking for you. But a job that you enjoy, you have fun at, that provides you the income as you define as significant or important to you.
Yeah.
It's part of a life's experience. A big part.
Right.
And I think we have the ability, if we free ourselves from doing the work as entrepreneurs, to set up an environment that does that.
Yeah.
For others.
Right, right.
And you're. I feel like we still need to. I mean, we're at a certain point, but you're still the brand. So we still need to then go to the next level where now it's like grown past that to where it's not, you know, just.
Yeah, I think we're starting to get there. So these derivative books are a big thing. That's what Amy leads. There's more Profit first books out there than just mine. There's five derivatives and more on the verge of three or four release back to back to back. There's going to be a point, if this continues with Profit first, that the Profit first derivatives collectively may sell more than the original Profit first book itself. And that becomes a tipping point that it's really now part of a bigger community than just me and Fix this Next. We now have one that's imminently going to be released and another one's coming out behind it. And we're also building products that aren't dependent upon me. The next level is I still do the teaching of our products. Can we deliver, start delivering products that I don't do anything teaching development, but can come out under our platform and that's next.
I think that's cool. Yeah.
You know, one other thing that I thought was cool about the interview is and I didn't really think about this, but you probably experienced this, Mike is when he said he started growing and, and his business was running itself. Then he was associating with other people and his social circle expanded, but in, in a different way because there are people that, you know, he never would have associated with before. So it was like now all of a sudden his social circle is moving to a whole nother area.
Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah. It's fascinating, but it's not saying you are like your five closest friends or something.
Yeah.
I do believe we need to select communities that we hang out with because there is massive influence that hurting mentality is. Happens for all of us. So pick your herd.
Right? Right.
You got game for us, J. Schlotta.
Of course.
Of course. It's called name Jay Sloan's favorite nicknames for himself.
Chris put in the little survey that he actually started a blues band. So this blues music trivia.
He started a blues band.
He used to front a blues band.
He said, oh, he's a front man.
He was a front man for blues.
Yeah, these are tough. I actually don't know much about blues, so I don't know, maybe you guys will do better than me. So. Robert Johnson is one of the most celebrated figures in the history of blues. His voice, his lyrics and guitar playing are legendary. He died in 1938 at the age of 27, leaving behind his legacy of 29 recorded songs and 49, 41 alternate tracks. Do you know how he died? So the options are he commits suicide. Alcohol, he was shot, or he died of pneumonia.
And if you answer pneumonia, you have to spell it correctly also.
Yeah.
Isn't like a pee in pneumonia or something?
Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
All right, number two, after the guitar. The instrument most closely identified with blues is the harmonica or the mouth harp. Which of the following artists was primarily known for their expertise as a harpist? Is it Pinetop Perkins? These names are so cool. Otis Spann, J. McShan, or Sonny Boyd Williamson. Have you heard any of these people before?
No.
No.
Neither have I. I want to say Sonny Boyd Williamson. I was hoping you're gonna say Jelly Roll Morton, because he's a performer, like. But he's not blues. He's like ragtime. There's another guy, Fat Twalard. Those names are amazing.
Yeah, they are old.
Yeah.
Yep.
And you know, the modern version is hip hop. Names that people have.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, it's the modern version of this stuff.
It's true. I never thought of it, but that is. That's true.
All right, question three. Much has been made about the influence that blues has had on the development of rock and roll. Many rock and roll bands such as Rolling Stones, Fleetwood Mac, Cream and Led Zeppelin had their roots in blues and evolved into what could be called blues rock. Which of the following rock bands did not fit this group? So which one was not bluesy with bluesy? Yep. The Animals, Pink Floyd, Canned Heat or ZZ Top.
What was the third band? The Animals, Pink Floyd, Canned Heat. Canned Heat.
They like, one major hit. Was that the. No. What is that? Canned heat? Bullet. Not Bullet Hits the Bone. What was the song? Was that major hit by them? Do you remember?
I don't. I don't even know.
I don't know.
Either Real funky began or.
All right, I'll have to look it up later.
Yeah.
All right, so question one.
How.
How did Robert Johnson die?
Pneumonia.
Pneumonia.
Yeah, he died. Pneumonia.
Oh, Mike.
27 years old.
That's a gimme. Yeah. Is that. That's a shame.
Pneumonia. P, N, E, U, M, O, N, I A. Do I get extra credit?
Spell one more time.
P N, P, N, E, U, M, O, N I A.
Got it. I forgot the U. I forgot the, uh.
You. Yeah.
Star and a half for her.
Thank you. Thank you.
Isn't that crazy to think. I mean, pneumonia can still kill you now, but like, in 1938, it was, you know, way.
Yeah. Yeah. Aren't you glad? Sometimes don't you just sit there and be like, thank God I was born in this day and age. Oh, we're so lucky. I think about women birthing children and those kind of things, and I'm like, oh, my God. God, thank God. We live when we live. Thank God.
And pain. I was just looking at pain reduction. Like pain medicines, Pain management.
Management. Yeah.
You had a bite of. You really had a bite. A bowl and take a shot of whiskey, like, until, like, two days ago.
It was like.
It was like, brutal.
So brutal. So brutal.
Now you know, God puts a mask on you. You'll sleep through the whole process.
Yeah.
You go to the hospital, they're like, all right, which stick would you want? Do you want oak?
Yeah, yeah. Bite the stick.
Which stick would you like to chew on? Amputate your leg?
And then they stick leeches on you. Say, that'll help.
Yeah.
My God.
My insurance billed me for oak, Brad. Hickory.
I love that. That's a hysterical concept. Sorry. I have an hmo. I can only have hickory. I can't have. You can only have pine. Exactly. Pine.
I had.
I had Kentucky Whiskey. What is this? All right, question two. The instrument closely associated with blues is the harmonica. Other than guitar, who was primarily known for their expertise as a harpist?
Your first name.
I want to go with that. Pine Top Parker. Was that the name I heard. I don't even know.
Perkins.
Perkins.
I went, Sonny Boyd Williams. But I love that you said pinetop because that's a cool name.
It's Sunday Boy Willie.
Two for two.
I actually. I think I knew that one.
Really? I have.
That's the only one performer I knew. I knew he played the. He paid the harp.
Played the harp. Do you know if the other three even. I don't even know. So are the other three even real people, or did you make those probably.
No, no, they're real people.
Okay.
Yeah.
This is how little I know.
How can you make. How I'm not clever enough to make.
A. I don't know. You've made up some pretty good. Some pretty good decoy guesses before you have.
All right, and then the third one is which band was not part of the blues rock that was associated with blues?
Okay. I'm saying Pink Floyd. I don't. Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong album. But I don't hear blues when I hear Pink.
Yeah, I don't hear blues. But. But all their stuff is based upon what's called the minor pentatonic scale. It was very bluesy based. I would say it's Animals. The Animals.
It's Pink Floyd.
No.
Yeah, but I love that.
You just taught me that. What the hell does it mean?
So in the blues, one of this. Well, there's a thing called the blues scale, but there's also this thing called the major pentatonic and the minor pentatonic. And Pink Floyd leverages the Meyer pentatonic is very sullen sound. Very kind of.
That's blue and that's a bluesy bass.
It's a bluesy sound. So that's why. And I know they're considered psychedelic rock, but I. I was convinced that was Blue Space.
What was your guess, Mike? I forgot.
The Animals.
The Animals, that's right.
I can't actually remember any of their songs, so I gotta see. We'll see if this Canned Heat song is because I remember there's one.
I don't even know the band. Can't.
No. You'll know it.
Oh, it's one of those things where, you know, the. Was it a one hit wonder kind of a thing or was.
On the road.
So while you're looking that up, there was. There's a guy on YouTube that I watch who's a really good guitar player and he teaches lessons online, but he just does these really cool videos on YouTube. I can't remember his name. I have to say Link. But he challenged this one.
It's very bluesy. Listen, can you hear it in the distance? I'm. Crank it up a little bit. Oh, me. I can't crank it up. Hold on.
That's all right. I wasn't talking.
Here it is.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Oh, there.
Sorry. If you were talking, I didn't hear you talking because I added my.
Sorry.
Yeah.
So who's this YouTube guy?
Oh, so he. Basically what he did was he challenged that. He's like, you know, each genre of music has their guitar that they. That they associate with. And so everybody thinks that they want to play that type of genre, then they need to have that guitar. And he totally.
This.
This, like, disprove that proved that he was. He like used the opposite guitar of what you should use for those and made it sound amazing. It was so cool.
I love that.
And he said he actually thinks that some of those are better suited for, like a blues guitar. You don't even need for blues.
Right.
And he picked other guitars that actually sounded better. It was really cool. Like a hollow body. It's like traditionally blues, right? Hollow body guitars are for blues, Mike.
Yeah. Yeah, it can be. Yeah, for sure. The Holly Ball. Holly Hollow body electrics can be. Did you know Pink Floyd has song called Blues?
No. What does it sound like?
Here it is. Here it is.
That sounds boosted.
But this is a song called Blues, but interesting.
That's.
Maybe I screwed up on that one. I did some research. It seemed like that that was the. The one that didn't. The other ones, I think are associated with. With blues.
For sure. For sure. No, that was good.
That was good.
That's cool.
So I got two, you got one, Aim.
I got two.
Two.
I got pneumonia and Pink Floyd.
So you win because you got two and a half with Amy wins it.
Yeah.
Hey, talking about winning, you know, you are listening. Friends can help us win. Would you please give us a rating? An honest rating review. Did you find the show interesting? Did you learn some new stuff from Chris? Go to RateOurPodcast.com and please do us that favor and make sure you subscribe so you don't miss a single episode. Any questions you have, you can email to me ataskmike michalowicz.com and I'd love to answer your questions on one of the. Behind the mics on my company. It's a lot of mics. All right.
Can't have too much, Mike.
Yeah.
All right.
Let's get out of here.
All right. Wishing you the times.
Wishing you.
