Exclusive interview with Melissa Dlugolecki, podcast host, business (and grief) coach, and friend

Hey Melissa.

Hi.

I, I got tough news two days ago and I'll, I'll keep the person anonymous and I know we're going right into the throes of it, which is not how you should do a interview or podcast, but I think we should because something happened yesterday. It was a 10 year anniversary. I want to talk about that. I got a call from a friend of a friend who said she just lost her husband. The two of them were working, they're in their 50s, she and her husband are in good health, physically fit and effervescence from the sky. And they both work from home, but they have different offices on the other sides of the house. And hey, seen a little bit, you know, kiss each other goodbye so to speak. And they both walk to our offices and my friend, female, they had an appointment. They were both going to together like four or five hours later and say gosh, he must be Lauren, like still in the office. On the office goes in, he's passed away. It's totally a total shock. And she's now in the throes of it and, and you know what is happening and I had to bite my tongue. As I learned from you, people are reaching out saying I'm so sorry, how can I help you? What do you need from me? There's already work 48 hours into this and there's a burden placed on that person. You're the expert on, on grief. What do we do as the griever and what do we do as the people trying to support the griever when it comes to these situations?

Oh well, thank you for sharing. And while I know we don't typically start interviews like this, I think you and I do so.

That's right. That's right.

We kind of just, we, we've always connected on the deeper conversations and thank you for sharing, sending so many prayers to your friend and, and her family.

Thank you.

So in the book right. That, that we have coming out, I really do speak into this a lot. It's that understanding everyone has really good intentions. So anyone who wants to help you have a good intention. But now how do we allow your intention to be actually helpful? Because it's counterproductive if that good intention is conveyed in a way that isn't helpful. And so that's what I really seek to do is to help position people. And I think positioning is an important thing. So position people to win. Now when somebody is an intense trauma, decision making is incredibly burdensome. Any, if you think about like if you feel like you have massive Weight on you. Any decision or question is going to add more weight. And so when we're supporting somebody in grief or trauma, we want to actually look at how do I alleviate the weight that they feel rather than add weight. Does that make sense?

I totally make sense.

Yeah. So different ways you can do this. And I think there's a chapter in the book called Authentic Grieving, and I think what's very important is to give any supporter permission to support in a way that's authentic to them. So if you love cooking, make a meal. If you love writing, write a card. Um, if you like getting things done, just go to her laundry. Don't even ask. Just go do it.

Yeah.

Bring groceries, drop them off, leave them at the step. Like, if these be unattached. And I think that's also a very important thing, too, is that sometimes when we're supporting in grief, we want the other person to acknowledge us for our support. And I would encourage anyone who wants to be supportive to completely detach, because we don't know someone is in any moment. And if we're fully making it about the other person, it's that this helps them in the way that it helps them in the time that it helps them. It has nothing to do with me.

So brilliant. Yeah, it's so brilliant. But let me ask you this. If. If I show up to her house and say, hey, I'm doing your laundry, that may feel for me like I'm being invasive. I'm inserting myself inappropriately. Should I ask for permission, say, hey, my wife and I want to come by and just do the laundry. We're actually on our way now. Just permission to come in. Don't even need to talk. Is that kind of the way the position.

Yes, 100%. Of course. We're not going to just let ourselves in someone's house.

Right. Right.

And be okay if it's a no. Yeah, if it's a no. But, hey, I'd love to, you know, do your laundry, organize the house, like, you know, cut your grass, whatever it may be. Mow your lawn. I think also looking at things that maybe for this particular case, her husband did that. There. That might be a void now. Right.

That's so great. Yeah.

Right. And so that could be cutting the lawn. That could be, you know, I'm just going to come do this. Would that be okay with you?

I'd love to. I know he was the grocery shopper guy. Like, he. He liked that, and he'd go and do it. So now that's a void.

Right. That could be very triggering for her to then need to go to the grocery store. So it could even look like something not as invasive. You know, laundry is a little bit more of an invasive example. But it was really just an example, a hypothetical. But going grocery shopping and then just dropping the groceries.

So interesting. In our house, I pay the bills. You know, we all, my wife and I have different roles. One of my roles is pay the bills. We were talking about this. If I left the planet today, there's this sudden burden and also a lack of ability, knowledge to do. It's not. You can pick it up the next morning.

No.

You know. So let's talk about your book real quick because this is atypical that I do an interview pre release, pre title, free title. You got a working title? I want to know what it is. I want to know what your book is about. And then I want to move on to a different story that's going to be deep. Okay, so tell me about the book.

Working title is Scar Tissue.

I love. I love it. I love it. I know what it means instantly. Exactly.

And it really speaks to. And where this became a working title is we were kind of. The book unfolded right. The initial vision. I think the book took on its own personality and purpose and kind of showed us what was needed, which was a fun, fun process to go through. Like listening to how this was going to develop.

Yeah.

And what became clear is that this is actually probably not for the immediate griever in, in that first, you know, few months where they're very raw, because this is a little bit more solution oriented. So this is great for people supporting grievers, and this is great for people maybe with less intense grief journeys. Because a big purpose of the book is to redefine grief, to not just be a loss of a life, but a breakup, an empty nest, a job change, a move, an identity change, a loss of a future you envisioned, a loss of a pet. And very tangible tools that demystify the five stages of grief. Because I don't believe that there are these five linear stages. And I think that disservices people when we have this perception of like, well, why am I not in that stage yet? It doesn't work that way. And it's very tangible, practical tools that you can use. And the intention of scar tissue is to understand that the scar tissue that's surrounding our pain and our wounds and our traumas actually has power in it.

Interesting. What would be the power in the scar tissue?

Well, there's a lot of I mean, there's so much grief. Has been one of my greatest teachers and the most painful thing. But it humbled me. And like no other, it showed me life in a way that I'd never seen before. It allowed me to be in radical responsibility for my healing in a way that I didn't even understand how to be in radical responsibility for my life. And. And that was power in the scar tissue. I think for a lot of people, it can drive purpose, it can drive mission, it can drive vision, but there's feedback in our experiences. So if we're looking at the scar tissue surrounding, you know, let's say a difficult breakup or a divorce, within the pain of it, there's, like, little, like, gems in the scar tissue. Show us how we need to grow, what we want and need in our future and what not to repeat.

People miss that sometimes one thing is scar tissue. And as I've gone through this journey with your book, reading it and digesting and learning from you is it heals. It doesn't return to the prior state that there's always a scar that will be there. There's always a reflection. It's an almost like an integration. And when. So when you see the title, like, My God, I think I get it instantly. I remember you saying something really profound but also powerful when your daughter Layden passed away. It was a year or two later, and someone connected to you said, aren't you over it now? Or something to that effect.

Yeah.

Can you tell me a little bit about that story?

Oh, well, one of the. One of the gold nuggets and the scar tissue of my grief was really learning not to take things personally.

Amazing. Not easy.

Because, you know, I. One of the most painful things was when somebody said, at least she wasn't older, you know, and that. And again, coming back to the beginning of intent, the intent was to try and make me feel better.

You're right. Right.

But that was not what I wanted to hear. I had someone say, oh, Melissa, it's been a year. Like, aren't you over it? Like, isn't. Isn't that when it gets better now? Yeah. And I was like, there's not some clock. And I think that's important for people to understand. Year two and year ten this past year have been the most painful for me. Year two, I think, was the most painful because what's one day of 365 to 366 really do? But what happens is that first year, you're on everyone's radar.

Yeah. Because there's the first of everything, the, the first birthday, the first Christmas. Christmas.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mother's Day.

Yes.

They should move on. They have lives. Right. And that's a big part of it. But year two, you're like, wait, where's everyone going?

Yeah.

And now you're actually left to feel it in my, in my personal experience on a deeper level, because a lot of the people surrounding you alleviated a lot of the pain. As I was talking about alleviating some of that weight earlier, when you're trying to support, that's ultimately what your, your support group does, is they alleviate that weight. So when the support group leaves and they're like, okay, you got this, you know, and no one's intentionally leaving. It's just part of the natural evolution of people have lives and then they have their own griefs and they have their own families and they've had their own challenges. So that was a really difficult thing to feel, as though I was being judged for not being over it yet, but understanding that this person just loved me and they were in pain, seeing me in pain. So they want to know when my pain would end so their pain would end.

Your, your daughter passed away 10 years ago yesterday, and you just said that was one of the most difficult periods. What, what is it about this that I want to say? I get it, but I don't get it. What happens at 10 years or what happened, at least for you, at the 10 year anniversary?

A couple of things was that I took a little bit of a break from the podcast and from my grief. Almost like I had been so in it. I ran marathons and I was fundraising all the time and I was talking about all the time. And I started the podcast and I actually needed almost like a little break from hanging out with my group all the time and talking about it. And so this past year I returned to it. And that was with the book. And so the book obviously going to these places. And as you know, I was procrastinating. I needed, I needed support in getting into the depths of the emotion. So I think relaunching the podcast and the book just stirred up a lot again and deeper places than I had gone. And secondly, there's something about 10, you know, it's like I could have a 10 year old.

You know, that's what I was thinking. A reflection on what ifs, what would have happened.

Double digits, double digits, you know, and 10 is just like, it's like a decade. And then there's also this sadness of how have I lived 10 years of my life without her. Like, it feels so long. I remember when I. When Laden passed in the first couple years, somebody telling me about their loss, and it had been 10 years, and I remember being like, oh, they're so far out. Like, they're not, like, almost like, I can't imagine being 10 years out and, like, still feeling it. Yeah. You know, so it's almost like this reflection of myself. Like, I think about my daughter every single day. I mean, her picture's hanging up right. Right behind my computer.

Do you see the. The. The Grieve supporters kind of rally at times over the years, or is it a constant fade from the support around you and around people who are grieving?

Oh, this is such a great question. And I think that there's an element that relates to the book where I talk about being the coach of your own grief team.

Yeah.

And it's this strange level of responsibility. And what I would say is that the supporters kind of follow the way I lead my team. So that's interesting.

So. So what do you mean? How are you leading them?

Well, for a while, I was running marathons and fundraising and every. You know, so they had specific activities, Right? Yeah. But if I send out an email campaign and let people know this is what's going on, this is how I'm feeling, they respond. But I said this about entrepreneurship, too. Entrepreneurship is very humbling. I tell my clients this all the time. No one is waking up today saying, how can I hire Melissa? Like, no one's waking up. How do I hire Melissa? No one's waking up. How do I support Melissa and her grief journey today? Most people forget the dates. I sometimes, like, get confused on dates. So just like, an entrepreneurship where if I would like people to work with me in my business, I have to put something out there. It's actually what I found to be true in grief. Now, in the beginning, more people come to you, but over time, you actually. Not from a victim standpoint, but from a responsibility of, like, hey, these are my needs. Can someone help me meet them? Or this is what I'm experiencing. Like, is anyone available to help me with this? Or this is coming up. Would. Would you be, you know, open to, you know, going to dinner or going to her memorial tree or. It would really mean a lot to me. And so over time, it's given me the space to really practice voicing my needs in a way that I probably didn't before. Unattached to outcome, not pressuring people, and not from a victim way of, like, poor me, but like, this is my true need. This is my true feeling. This is my true human experience. Can you help me?

Yeah. And if you disregard it, if you ignore it, how can anyone else notice it? I was flipping through like one of those motivational poster things somewhere and this one landed with me. I'm gonna totally mess it up. But it said something like, there is no one coming to save you. There's no one giving you a free lunch. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps, do what you need to take care of you effectively, what you're sharing. But it also sounds like it doesn't need to be that callous.

No.

It sounds like you can say, hey, listen, I just need someone to talk to right now. And the first person came to mind. Something like that.

Exactly. It can be very light lifting. And a concept that was very helpful for me, and that's in the book is not only are you the coach of your team, but you have to understand the positions people can play. Because you don't need nine quarterbacks or eight different running backs. And not everyone, like I use the example all the time. I'm from Boston. Tom Brady was arguably the best quarterback in history. Everyone laughed when he tried running the ball.

Right, Right. It was a joke. Yeah.

So if Tom Brady had been put in the position of running back, he wouldn't have succeeded.

Right.

This is the same thing. In our grief. If I asked my brothers to be my teammates of listeners, which is a very hard role to play. Most people think they can be a listener, but a true listener doesn't interject. They don't say. At least they don't try to fix it. They don't want to problem solve. They're just listening. Typically.

Can't be disturbing it. They're not. It's not in one ear out the other either.

I don't think they're holding. It's like they're holding.

That's the word.

Yeah.

You're so. You're so talent. You should write a book.

Yeah. It's like we can kind of dump and that person can hold it.

Yeah. Awesome.

It's a very hard thing to do.

Yes.

And particularly for me. It wasn't going to be the 1 degree closest people to me. It was almost like 2 degrees. Yeah. Like my cousin's wife could listen and hold like no other. But I think it would have been harder for my cousin because it would have pained him so much because of how close we are.

About. This is amazing. I want to talk about entrepreneurship specifically. That's the community I'm usually talking with. And you said something, you teased a little bit. You can grieve about job transitions. You can grieve over that lost client that meant everything to you, and this one day, they just walk away, and now your business. It feels devastating. But at the same time, if I call you up and say, melissa, I really need you to hold something for me. I lost a major client. It almost sounds like that's your problem, Mike. I lost my daughter. You know, I almost feel like I'm offending people with how insignificant my challenge is.

I love this. What do I do? Okay, I want to close the loop on the teammate thing really quickly, Mike.

Of course, of course.

And then I want to go into this. But what I was saying is that in grief, you need to position people for what they can actually do. So not everyone can listen. But my brothers were excellent distractors. So if I had begged my brothers to listen and they couldn't do it, I might have been in a position of, how come you're not helping me? But it's more or less so. Like, that's not the language I speak. It's like your grief language, like your love language. So I had to ask them to help me in the way that they could. So I just want to encourage anyone listening. It's just like an entrepreneurship. You got to put people in positions to succeed based on their skill set. It's the same thing in grief.

But I know it's such a powerful thing. And I think in the book, at least the last iteration, you were categorizing distractors, the holders. Okay, yeah. So now let's move on to my situation. Let's think this about me. Okay.

So what I say is that one, don't deprive the person of supporting you, because it can feel really good to support people. I love when somebody asks me for support.

Oh, interesting.

And so that's a way of connecting. So I would say don't deprive people by assuming how they're going to react. Let them have their own reaction. Secondly, I don't think there's a hierarchy in grief. And I believe as a bereaved mom, if there were a hierarchy, I would be up top. I see the depth. So there's like a depth chart. So it's not a hierarchy. Like, anything's better. But if you were to take the depth of my grief for Laden, it's going to go, like, really, really deep. I'm still going to grieve. If I. If I were dog, I were to lose my dog. She's like, mom, I'm going to. I can't not honor my grieve and say my grief and say, well, Melissa, you lost your daughter. You can handle losing your dog. These are two different things. My friend went through this. Daughters were a month apart, and she was having a really tough time with her daughter, not sleeping through the night, and it was just keeping her up. And I'm sure new moms can relate or dads. Like, she was at a breaking point and she hid it for me for a long time because she didn't want to feel like she was upset about something that I would give anything to have.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, but they're two different things. Her experience and my experience are two different things. And so what I, what I offer is that this is a really good space to learn to allow things to be in their own experience and not make it right or wrong. I also always use this example, which I think is a little bit more relatable. Particularly in my generation, we grew up with, like, a lot of awareness around not having leftover food.

Right.

Like the. Or reports or something. I'd go to something and like, it was, you know, you take your lunch and then it was like they celebrated how much the least amount of leftover food there was or something at like this.

Yeah.

But I remember hearing, Melissa, finish your food. There are starving children in Africa. Both, like, that is true, but me finishing my food and having a stomach ache is not going to solve world hunger.

There's no correlation.

There's no correlation.

Maybe the argument is waste, that we as a society more efficient, but it's almost like, it's almost like blaming the victim kind of thing, you know?

Yes.

So how does, how did your girlfriend come to you and start being honest that she was struggling with the baby that wasn't sleeping tonight? I mean, is there a way to break the ice on that conversation? Because. Because I could see her feeling bad in comparison.

I think that what happened was. And this was a while ago, so I might be incorrect, but if I, if I remember correctly, I actually think I hadn't heard back from her or something. And I might have asked one of our other friends, like, what was going on. Yeah, you think? My other friend told me, you know, and, and I think then I reached out and gave that permission. I know I had a group of seven girlfriends. We all went to college together, and they have like 187 kids between the six of them and the actual last day of Leighton's life outside of the hospital, like Four or five of us were all together for Mom's like little Saturday breakfast. And we didn't know we were going to the hospital. In fact we didn't know we were going at that time. And we ended up going that night in an emergency case. But that day we spent with my girlfriend. So we have a very tight knit group. It was probably one of the hardest spaces to navigate and continues to be hard. And they started like a group chat without me.

Yeah.

To. To talk about their kids. Because they needed to talk about their kids and the potty training and this and that.

Right, right.

They want sensitive to me. Yeah. And at first, at first I was like wait a minute. That's loss. Compounding loss. Yeah. And then it was like actually no, you got. I couldn't handle being in that. But then it came to a point where I went to them and said guys, I want to be back in the chat. Like I know we have two, can we just have one now? Like I'm ready. And it would actually mean a lot for me to be able to like keep tabs on your kids. But I had to again be in the driver's seat of that.

It, it's unfortunate but it's just the reality that the griever has an additional burden of managing the people around them during the Forever.

Forever.

Ten years later and there's still dialogues you have about it.

So that was the biggest theme I think of scar tissue is the level of responsibility and ownership that comes with our. It's opportunity. And also that opportunity is only available through responsibility and ownership that we don't want. But if we take it, the growth opportunities, the way in which I communicate, the way in which I don't take things personally, the way that I look at everyone is that they're carrying story. The compassion that I have. I don't know that I ever would have accessed that without my grief. And I always say I'll give it all back to have laid in.

Yeah.

But if plan A isn't an option, how can we make plan B the most beautiful it could possibly be?

I think you are writing one of the most innovative books in this space. The first time I've discovered or I'm familiar with a book that doesn't talk about the journey of grief, doesn't necessarily talk about the integration of grief. Those are all talked about. But the management of the community of grief and it's never explored and you've put it all in your book. We gotta wrap things up. There's no website to go to. There's no Amazon page for the book yet. And maybe it won't be scar tissue if the chilies come back. Red Hot Chili Peppers come back and say, sorry, that's a song. But it probably will be. Where can people go in the meantime to follow your journey, to learn from you so they can navigate their own grief, be it entrepreneurial grief or anything else.

My website is speaking of melissa.com that's going to have kind of the different things I have going on link to my podcast. I hang out a lot on Instagram. Like, a lot. If you want, like a play by play of my day in my Instagram stories, my username is Melissa Dugi. There's really no one else with that name out there, so I just, it's just my name, Melissa Dugi.

Brilliant. Thanks, Melissa.

Thank you.

All right.