Anna Oliveira | When Doctors Say, "We Don't Know" Podcast | Episode 210

Welcome to the show. My name is Eva Vennari, founder of the Elevate Institute, and I'll be your host for today's podcast, When Doctors Say We Don't Know. This is an inclusive conversation, and so many are craving to share their stories and experiences. Today's guest is no exception. Today's honored guest is Anna Oliveira. Anna is the founder of Zenergy HQ, a wellness space providing herbal and cannabis education. massage, yoga, and retreats. Her focus is to empower women to find alternative ways to manage their fibromyalgia and chronic pain. Anna, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much. Great to be here.

Yeah, this is such an amazing conversation around fibromyalgia because so many people have trouble getting this diagnosed. They run around in circles wondering, What it is in the first place, and it takes a long time. So you're like, it doesn't matter how many stories I hear on this, they're all different.

Yes, and it's just because fibromyalgia can look like so many other things such as Lyme disease, lupus, arthritis. There's just so many other things that doctors have to rule out, and so that's why it often takes a long time and numerous specialists. And a doctor with empathy who is not willing to just cross it off as being all in your head, or you just have chronic pain, you're going to have to learn to live with it. And I know just speaking with doctors that I respect, they just said years ago it was typically just tossed in a bucket of random other complaints and attributed to just a woman being hysterical or Not willing to cope with life or looking for an easy way out or having a mental illness. And it's just sad when you think about how many people have, have suffered not only their physical pain and fibro fog and all those things that go along with that, but they're also being just dismissed by the healthcare system and being treated like it's their fault. It's their problem and there's nothing anybody can do. So they're just caught between a rock and a hard place in trying to move on with their lives and find some resolution and some quality of life.

Now, does this reflect your story as well with fibromyalgia?

I personally don't have fibromyalgia, but I do suffer from a lot of chronic pain and migraines and just learning about The type of woman who is typically— and men get it too— but often women who get fibromyalgia are the people pleasers who have often suffered from trauma in their childhood, emotional, physical, sexual, who have felt that they need to work extra hard to prove themselves. They're always in the high stress mode, Type A personality, and eventually their body just starts giving out on them and they start noticing these odd symptoms and it's just, they may hit a breaking point of having an infection, having an accident, having a surgery, and that just tips their body over the edge into the state of fibromyalgia. And so just looking at these women's lives, when I hear their stories, I think that could be me. That could be me just one accident or illness away from developing this because I have so many of the same traits and life experiences. And as a massage therapist, when helping these women overcome their pain, it just breaks my heart when I see how they suffer and I can see a lot of myself in them. I think that's why I'm drawn so much to this population.

It's a difficult— you kind of described a very common picture of what I experienced personally and what I've heard from others as well. So when somebody is in the middle of a journey like this, what are the telltale signs if they haven't been diagnosed yet? You, as a massage therapist, what are you looking for? What are you keeping your eye out for that may clue them into this could be fibromyalgia?

The 2 things that are most common to people with fibromyalgia are widespread body pain and the inability to get deep, restful sleep. And I think a lot of doctors are starting to tune into that. They used to just test, you know, by body pressure points and pain, but that can vary from person to person. But the 2 main things are you just are not able to get deep restful sleep and you have this widespread body pain.

And that's really— it's not a traveling pain, just it's all over the body and inflammation.

All over, diffuse pain. It can be neck and shoulders one day, burning nerve pain in your feet, headaches. It just varies from person to person.

So as a person is searching for, you know, the reason, like, what is this? What other things could they— you mentioned lupus, you mentioned a few. What other things could be misdiagnosed as other than fibromyalgia along the way?

It's often— sometimes it's Lyme disease. rheumatoid arthritis, other autoimmune disorders, and they can also happen along with fibromyalgia. So sometimes it's hard to detangle all the symptoms and decide if they just have fibro, if there are alternative things that they have in addition to. And so that's where it's nice that they finally have testing for Lyme disease, lupus, but, you know, fibromyalgia, there is no definitive blood test. They have developed one, but it doesn't have a lot of confidence yet. So that's where people who have fibromyalgia— it's usually a process of elimination. It takes many years to sift through all the symptoms, go through the testing, and find a doctor that's willing to listen and give them that diagnosis so they can move forward.

So if there's no surefire way to do a blood test and see this in the same way you would a virus or bacteria or something going on in the system, How do you know when you don't have it anymore other than not having the chronic pain?

Well, the theory is that it is a chronic illness and that when you have it, it's something that you're going to be managing for the rest of your life, and that's what I'm hearing from women. Often women have it in their teen years. It typically starts a little later in life, but it can start in teen years and go right up until your senior years. It's just a matter of learning how to manage it so that it's not, you know, the only thing that you're noticing in life, that you're able to enjoy your life without noticing the symptoms. You can put it into remission. It's not technically remission, but you can manage your symptoms. You can have many, many more good days than bad days when you understand your triggers and understand what you need to do to give your body the rest that it needs. so that you're not overexerting yourself and getting yourself into a fibro flare. And so, yeah, it's chronic. There's no cure yet. There are medications, there's alternative therapies and things that you can do to manage it so that you can have a great quality of life and have long periods of time without suffering.

Well, let's talk about those. So, you know, in your center and in the work that you offer, what are you finding are Giving people that hope, the light at the end of the tunnel, and this, this is helping me manage it without becoming a full-time job all in itself?

I think setting up some lifestyle changes. For some people, it can be triggered by certain things they eat, too much sugar. Some people it's gluten, other sensitivities. So cleaning up your diet and eating natural, real foods. Other people, it's a matter of setting up boundaries in their life. We know how stressed we get when we take on too much. We say yes to everyone. We take care of everyone else, and we're running from job to kids to taking care of elderly parents. And women with fibromyalgia just feel this incredible burden, and you just have to learn to set boundaries and do what you can, acknowledge what you can't, delegate, learn how to say no and feel okay with that. I think we tend to internalize a lot. And that, that totally affects your, your mind and your body, and that there's strong relation with stress and causing long-term illness. So if we can find ways to decrease stress and gentle exercise and movement, it's not a matter of, you know, some doctors say, well, if you just lose weight and exercise, you'll feel better.

No.

There is a little truth to that. However, when you just don't have the energy and you aren't sleeping, Exercising is impossible. You just don't have the energy to do that. So finding gentle ways to move your body to keep it in the best shape that you can through water exercises, you know, yoga, walking, and doing things that aren't overly strenuous that can put a strain on your whole system is much better and much kinder. Finding ways to de-stress. Meditation, vagal nerve stimulation, breathing exercises, using herbs, medical cannabis, CBD. There's just a lot of things that people can do and mix and match, and what works for one person might not work for the other person because we're all just so unique. And I just know that in talking to women and in helping them They're on that. There are things that definitely work, and there are even some medications that can give them some relief. But the thing with medications is people don't like to be on them long term, and they do have side effects. So you want to try to use them only as needed, sprinkle them in. But for the most part, lifestyle, de-stress, putting good food in your body, and those kinds of things are really important to help you feel your best.

Yeah, so I'm just— I'm hearing that that seems to be a theme of dealing with chronic illness is like you may go to the doctor and get the good news that it's all in your head, everything is within normal range.

Yes.

And that kind of gives you the, oh great, it's not anything that is life-threatening at the moment, that is, you know, but these chronic things, they make you, like you said earlier, you can't really enjoy life, you can't really engage with people around you because you're focused on your pain. So the first step is typically with some sort of medication. Are you finding that the probability of coming off of medications is higher as you work with folks?

Yes, people do find that they, they don't want to be on these medications, are highly motivated to decrease them, and that there are side effects. They sometimes feel even more foggy. There's weight gain with some of them. There's loss of libido. There's just reasons why these medications aren't ideal. They're, they're good for short term and helping you through the rough spots. But it also, I think, makes you feel more control when you can make changes and do things yourself without having to go to a pharmacy to make yourself feel better. And I think people want to gain that power back. They, they want to know what they can do for themselves rather than to rely on a drug company to help them feel better.

Yeah, that seems to be an ongoing trend. And what I failed to mention earlier in your bio is you're a nurse practitioner. So what is the difference between the nurse practitioner and the doctors who are first seeing these patients who are looking for answers?

Well, I'm a nurse. I'm not a nurse practitioner, but thank you. I would love to be a nurse practitioner, but that's many years of work for me. So that is the difference is that I, I don't prescribe. I see people. Yes, I'm a nurse, but I see them more on a health coach, yoga, massage therapist, and cannabis consultant kind of way. So I don't have like an actual office like a physician or a nurse practitioner would. I work in a different realm than working with insurance and, and all that wonderful stuff that can restrict what you're able to do with people.

So I'm thinking too that you're probably able to spend more time. So as far as the difference, a lot of times physicians have very little time to spend with a person to hear the full story of what's going on with them, how they're feeling. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's the big problem with our current medical system is doctors are pushed really hard to, you know, they have 10 to 15 minutes that they're allowed to spend time with someone. So how can you really explain how you're truly feeling or verbalize your concerns and come with your questions and have them address them in a 10 to 15 minute time span. So that's why when you see your doctor, you're typically given either a pill, a procedure, or a test. And that's the best they can do in that limited time. They don't have time to listen to all of your concerns and understand how is your illness impacting your relationship with your husband and how is it impacting your ability to do your job and to be a parent and to take care of your elderly parents and, and all those things that As a coach, you can take much more time with and help them develop strategies and identify barriers and, and to look for those alternative things that they could be doing that are sometimes so simple.

As you're saying this, I mean, a lot of people, they love to go into the doctor's office with the idea this is covered under my insurance. So therefore, anything that I need to get better is going to be covered. And I find that the mindset of a lot of people who start out thinking that They realize that the answer lies outside of what is covered generally under medical insurance. Do you find this also to be a hurdle that people are having to overcome in order to get the help that they need, and what's the conversation around that?

Definitely, yeah. There are a lot of people who seek me out for chronic pain for massage therapy, and I'm able to provide that service, but it's something that most insurance companies don't cover. There are some that do, They may get a prescription for massage from their doctor and they can use their HSA card to access my services, which helps them a little bit. And also in helping people with medical cannabis. You know, medical cannabis is not covered under anybody's health plan that I'm aware of. It would be wonderful if it were, but it's still not respected enough as being medicine. It's seen more as a recreational thing. It's Finally gaining more acceptance in the medical realm, but as far as insurance companies go, I don't think they're right on board yet with seeing the benefit of having people use medical cannabis as a more cost-effective way of managing their symptoms than opioids and a lot of new synthetic things that cost a lot of money to develop with research and pharmaceutical companies, and that there are simpler, cheaper ways that it would be awesome if insurance companies would realize the savings if they were to enable their clients to access that.

I agree, and that's a very politically correct way of saying, what the heck, man? And because, I mean, we still as a federal government, we haven't agreed that it is a legal substance. I mean, each— how many of the different states have said, oh yeah, this is good, we're okay with it, we can use it? But federally, I'm pretty sure that's why the insurance companies and even many of the As from a business standpoint, as a practitioner myself, I can't carry cannabis and put it as a product on my website because my merchant account says, look, this is an illegal substance.

Yes.

Yeah. So, and speaking on, you know, just my experience with cannabis, I love the full spectrum CBD oil, but what are you finding is most effective? Because there's all different kinds of CBD and the cannabis in particular. What are you finding is most useful? For fibromyalgia?

That's because everybody's so unique. It's really hard to pinpoint an exact dose ratio cannabinoid. I mean, there's CBD. Everybody's familiar with that. Starting to gain more popularity is CBDA. It's more in its acid form. It's not converted into CBD yet, and some people find that can be more beneficial for their pain. So it's, it's more of a kind of experimenting. You, you try one product and it's a commitment. You have to stick with that product for about a month to see how your body's going to respond because it takes a little while in order to change the dynamic of your own internal endocannabinoid system. And adding supplementation with CBD takes a while to start showing effect that you're going to notice. And if after a month you're noticing that, you know, you're adjusting your dose and you're increasing it, you're not finding any change, then maybe switch to a CBDA product. There's a lot of research into CBG. It's another cannabinoid. There's CBC. They're discovering new cannabinoids all the time, which is amazing about the cannabis plant itself. It has so much potential, and it's not just the cannabinoids, it's the terpenes that are in there.

Mm-hmm.

That also help, and that's why it's important to, to take the whole plant with the THC and the CBD and the terpenes and just find a ratio and a combination that works best for you. Some people just respond better with adding a little more THC into it, so you can't buy anything more than 0.3% THC in your CBD product. over-the-counter, but if you go to a dispensary, that's when you can start getting more creative with your dosing. And you can try, you know, a 1-to-1 ratio of CBD and THC and start there. And that's such a tiny amount of THC, people are worried they're going to get high.

Oh no.

Yeah, no, it's not going to get too high, but it can help you feel better. So yeah, yeah.

And no, I, I, I'm— I use the full-spectrum CBD for the terpenoid delivery system, and I have people take it with their supplements so that you can really absorb the minerals more effectively because it does lower the stress in the body overall. Like almost immediately you're able to absorb minerals that you weren't able to just a few minutes before.

That's interesting. Awesome.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the work that I have found. So it very much works in tandem and people are aware of the massive story that cannabis and marijuana is as a whole and it can seem like a very scary thing. So to have somebody like you who is well-versed in it would be ideal as they're trying different things out, because I think trying it on your own can be both costly, more so than it needs to be, and just trial and error. We kind of want to get to what works faster, right?

Yes.

So that's what I would think. So tell us what else you have going on. I know that you have, you have a book, right?

I do.

Yeah, and a retreat center coming up. So I want to hear more about that. Tell us about the book first.

Well, I wrote this book last year just because talking to my clients and realizing that when they go to their doctor and they talk about alternative therapies, they're kind of poo-pooed or dismissed as being effective. And I think it's really important to create a team. So that's what the book is about, is assembling your team for taking care of a chronic illness, exploring things such as acupuncture, massage, and working with your physician and combining the best of what traditional medicine offers and what alternative alternative complementary medicine can offer. And so the book just helps people explore a little bit of other ways that they can treat their chronic illness and other practitioners that they can reach out to, because everybody approaches things a little differently, to find something that jives with them. So that was just why I just put that book out there, just to give somebody who's starting off with fibromyalgia an understanding that there's multiple things that they can do. And it's just a matter of finding that right fit for you.

Tell us the title because I love this title.

Oh, it's called Girl, You Have Fibromyalgia, So Now What?

It's the language of, I get that, all right. Yeah, yeah, grounding the message and really getting down to the nitty-gritty. I think that's awesome. And then tell us more about this retreat that you're building. The retreat center?

Well, we live on 25 acres, and I'm passionate about growing things organically and living a clean, healthy life. And I love doing massage and yoga and women's wellness. So we decided, why not pull all the things together that I love to do? And so we've created this amazing structure. It's— it looks like a barn, but inside it's amazing. It has a full beautiful huge kitchen that I can teach herbal remedy classes and cannabis classes in. We have an upstairs huge yoga studio. There's bedrooms. We have accommodation. We already do Airbnb, so we love hosting people and teaching and sharing. So it was just kind of a natural development to expand a little bit and start offering weekend retreats. I mean, we're in beautiful lake and river country. There's kayaking and fishing and golfing and hiking and lots of fun stuff to do. And then I love to teach and I love to share what I know about health and wellness. So I thought this would be awesome just to have a bunch of women come to the property for the weekend, enjoy amazing food, check out my little farm. I have, you know, a huge greenhouse, I have organic berries, I have a few chickens, there's a lake across the road. We love to explore and do a variety of activities and And teach them about different ways that they can learn something while they're here that they can take home with them and start to change their habits and their lifestyle and what they're eating and maybe make a little herbal remedy or those kinds of things. Just a variety of activities that we think would be a lot of fun to do.

It sounds like coming back to the connection with the earth and the natural remedies that we used to know and practice more than 100 years ago. This was a regular part of life.

Yes, yes.

And I love growing herbs. Yeah, I love it too. If I didn't have— I have a brown thumb, it's not green. I tend to kill things. My daughter says, Mom, I'm going to give you a plant. Whatever your intuition is, do the opposite.

And is it working?

No, I kill them all. I don't have enough sunlight coming through the window, that's my excuse, and I overwater, that's my other excuse. So there it is. But where is this beautiful place? People wanted to come and visit you. Where are you?

I'm in northern Michigan. It's an area called Gaylord, and it's known for its golfing and retreat vacation kind of destination. So people come from Ohio and downstate Michigan, Chicago area. They all love to head up here because it's just gorgeous in the spring, summer, and fall. In the winter, we get a lot of snow, so I'm not planning on running any winter retreats. It'll be more of a A spring, summer, fall kind of thing.

Hmm. I'm already thinking, well, we can make snowmen, angels. Yeah, no.

You're right. Winter's not my thing.

So yeah, I'm in LA. We go and visit the snow. That's how we're excited about it when we see it. What is that? What is snow? I know. So I'm a little spoiled that way. But yeah, I would love it if people are listening to what you have to offer. Do you also work remotely? With people?

I do.

I do work remotely, and I'm currently working on a 4-week program I'm hoping to start in November but run it frequently throughout the year to help people break the cycle of pain and exhaustion and use alternative strategies. And it's just something that they can log into. I'll do some live teaching. There'll be some—

Wonderful. What's the best way for them to find out more?

They can email me at anna, that's 2 N's, anna@xenergyhq.com. You can also check out my website, which is xenergyhq.com, and find me on Facebook, again, Xenergy HQ Wellness and Retreats. Lots of ways you can reach out nowadays, you know, with all the social media stuff.

But good to be everywhere. And it's, and it's Zenergy, starting with the Z and then ending with energy HQ.

Exactly.

Yes.

Beautiful. I love it.

A little zen, a little energy.

We need, we need it all. And a little THC and a little cannabis. All right. So, so we are out of time, but I want to ask you one Final question I ask all my guests, because I feel like this is different but very similar for everyone: what do you feel is the most important thing to remember when searching for answers?

To keep an open mind. I think we often convince ourselves that we, we've already formed the answer, even though we're looking for it. We're looking for something to confirm what we already believe. And I think if you keep an open mind, you might find the answer somewhere where you weren't even looking. And just be open-minded.

Love it. I think that's very good advice. And I want to say thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you for being our guest.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

And thank you out there listening in to today's podcast with Dr. Say Don't Know and Ana Oliveira. I'm going to get that right. I will. Ana Oliveira.

Oliveira.

Thank you. Like Oliveira Street. I stumbled on it a couple of times when we first spoke and there we did it again. All right. So anyways, thank you for being a guest and thank you for listening to When Doctors Say We Don't Know. This has been an engaging conversation and I hope that those of you listening will hear that message of hope so you too can turn your experience of pain into triumph. If you're driving or simply can't click on the links to today's show notes right now, remember you will always find them on theelevateinstitute.com/show. Just follow the links for the podcast and find today's show. There is more to talk about. Tune in next week for another episode of When Doctors Say We Don't Know. This is Eva Vennari reminding you to question everything.