Elisha Galambos | When Doctors Say, "We Don't Know" Podcast | Episode 109

Welcome to the show. My name is Eva Vennari, founder of the Elevate Institute, and I'll be your host for today's podcast, When Doctors Say We Don't Know. It's an exclusive— inclusive conversation. So many are craving to share their stories and experiences, and today's guest is no exception. Today's honored guest is Alicia Golombos. She is the director and founder of EAG Innovation. It's a mental health service geared to families. Specifically, their focus is post-traumatic stress disorder, depression, and atypical anorexia nervosa. Did I get that right, Alicia?

Yes, you did.

Welcome to the show.

Thank you.

Yeah, I— we had a conversation briefly about a week ago, and I've been really excited to have this conversation because people often leave mental health out of the holistic picture when it comes to healthcare. And when they're searching for answers, they go just to the physical. But I'd love to hear more about your work and the offer that you provide to help these different stressors. Tell us more.

Yeah, so I work from a framework as lived experience is evidence. So the diagnoses that you just mentioned were ones that came out of my past experiences. So ones that I'm able to talk to individuals about on a fundamental and a deeper level, being able to use my lived experiences through that. But typically on a day-to-day basis, I am working with families on finding ways to support them, specifically when doctors say they don't know, or before an actual diagnosis is made, or even afterwards when families are still struggling to pick up some of those pieces. They may have dealt with specific medical trauma or are looking for a more holistic approach. So what we do is we do one-to-one peer support, and that can really look like anything. That can look like having a conversation. It can look like having a music therapist brought in, acrylic ink artist. It can look like Taking time to do embodiment practices. And all of these things really create a holistic picture of finding families and individuals what they need in the moment they most need it.

I heard something in that sentence that really stood out for me, and I've not heard it before— embodiment practices. What, what is that?

So an embodiment practice, in the simplest terms, because we hear jargon thrown around a lot, Is coming back home to your body. So it's finding ways to connect with our abilities to be resilient as we were as a child. And that's particularly how I see it. So as a child, when we're learning to walk, we are comfortable with falling. We're resilient enough to get back up. And with embodiment, we're using our bodies. So whether that's martial arts, whether that's breathwork, Whether that's meditation, dance, movement, creativity, focusing in on the way trauma feels within our body, all of these can be examples of embodiment because we're throwing ourselves into the moment of getting back in touch with our bodies and making our bodies home.

I think that's beautiful, and it feels a little bit removed from what I know as mental health practices, at least here in the States. Is that— what's your take on that observation? Is that a true one, or do you feel like I'm just out of touch with mental health practices here?

I think there's a few. And when I say there's a few, they're mostly on the West Coast. They're doing it very discreetly. They're not— it's not well known. They may speak at conferences. They may speak within specific subspecialties. But no, you're absolutely right, it's not well known. And we're really lucky, there's a conference coming up called the Embodiment Conference. It's something we realized recently in terms of participants is we have 500,000 attendees, and we realized that's the size of somewhere like Luxembourg. And so people are interested, people are investing in this topic. It's just that you have to take a specific person who's willing to break that westernized approach, and most psychiatrists, most psychologists and therapists are not willing to go there just yet.

Huh. And I'm curious, just what's your take on why, why they're not willing to take that leap if it's showing that it's working? So those are 2 different questions, I suppose. Yeah.

So it is working. Of course it is. It's working in terms of helping with somatic responses. So we talk about somatopathy a lot. And I think therapists are afraid to go there because they know the traditional methods work. They know that, okay, this is going to be 12 weeks, this is going to be 25 weeks. And with insurance, especially in Canada, in the US too, you're given such a specific amount of time where we need to get this patient in and out as fast as possible. Get them healed and fixed. And these embodiment practices take more time, yet in the long term, they're more effective because we're using a holistic approach and healing some of the deeper parts of ourselves. So that inner child, the parts that may have been affected by trauma, parts that may have been affected by any adverse life experience too. But traditional therapies, we know there's a turnaround. We know that the therapist knows they're going to get their money. They know the insurance company is going to be happy. And the patient is going to have some decrease in symptoms. And that's usually what has become expected of our mental health system.

So I'm wondering, I mean, there's got to be some future where we split the difference. But I'm like, if, if you're getting results, it's just delayed, or not It just takes longer to get to the result. Are the results that you're achieving— permanent maybe is the wrong word, but they're longer lasting than how—

Yeah.

Yeah? Let's talk. Let's have a conversation on that because this sounds like there's like a whole— the beginnings of mental health, how they discovered to use medications, which is our common go-to here, but we moved away from the holistic practice that you're teaching because this This sounds like this is the way it was, the way it was supposed to be, and medicine kind of came in as, oh hey, let's hurry it up. Does that sound about right?

I would say that sounds about right. And the reason why embodiment takes longer, because it's getting you back to your body in terms of being able to regulate. And this isn't being able to regulate one specific situation. It's being able to take the ability to come to our senses And it's consciously using our body versus let's throw a strategy at it, let's throw a tool at it, let's throw medication at the problem. And that's why evaluating and looking at some of these benefits of embodiment on long-term brain effects versus the short-term of some of these other therapies and some of these medication routes. And we really just need to take time to decolonize it. A lot of these traditional roots were being used before kind of medicine came in, the idea of a capitalist society, and those structures began to break apart. And a lot of mental health care and stigma and discrimination and the things we need to decriminalize are based in a capitalist society and a framework. So it's really about Taking some of those colonial aspects and decolonizing it in every way we know how, and sometimes that means listening to the research on cognition and embodied accounts of comprehension and lived experiences to get to that place where we're able to go back there.

That's going to require somebody to be really clear of thought. So are you working with folks like— well, I want to back up for a second. Like, I want to hear more about— I was reading. Tell us more about the service you offer and the 3 key elements that you work with in achieving these results that you're now talking about.

Definitely. So one of the things I work with is the idea of lived experience as evidence. So lived experience as evidence is basically saying, not only am I a provider, These kinds of services using my own lived experiences, but I'm also aware of others' lived experiences. So they're feeling within their body, and every feeling is validated. We don't work to change those feelings. We work to come back home to ourselves so those feelings aren't disruptive. So we take everything that's happened in their lives and We really just work to validate it and know that anything they've experienced, whether that's medical trauma, whether that's, um, whether that's criminalization, whether that's been stigma, we work to use that as evidence within our practice. And ultimately, that gets them to build safer communities. So I work from a community standpoint. That's one of the reasons why I work with families. Because families I don't define in that narrow box of mom, dad, 2 kids, white picket fence, all that.

Yeah.

I think when we work with communities and we work with building safer communities, we can look at chosen families, we look at people within this kind of circle of care. And that's one thing I do is I look for other folks who are practicing embodiment and seek to actively refer And I think that's one thing that's not common in mental health these days is therapists or psychiatrists thinking, having that— I call it like a god syndrome, like believing that they have the power to change everything and fix, and their tool and their technique is the best possible thing. And I believe in like having a system of care where folks are referred. For example, if there's a martial arts teacher who's doing an embodiment practice that I think might help their— my client with anger, I might suggest, hey, here's this person, check them out on YouTube. If you feel like they're a good fit, especially now, they have Zoom classes this time on this day. And I find we get to build safer communities by giving people more points of connection than just being dependent on their doctor, just being dependent on their psychiatrist. And through that, we get a little bit more equitable health access. Because with embodiment, with, with exploring other practitioners, folks who know that walking into a doctor's office doesn't feel safe for them, they know that the system is broken in a way that further colonializes, that further takes on these capitalist patriarchal structures that make them feel unsafe and not at home in their bodies. We know there are other ways to work around that so everyone can have an opportunity. And that's really what equality is. It doesn't mean the same thing for everyone. It means that everyone gets just what they need.

Right. Which is very whole— that's beautiful. The lived experience, being able to validate a person rather than saying, no, no, no, that's not the right emotion to feel about that problem. You need to feel this way. That sounds very combative to me. And then this other point of— I'm really digging into this idea of working with the whole family because I have a belief that a symptom is never just a symptom, that it's always communicating a larger dysfunction. So could a symptomatic— the individual who's experiencing the mental health problem, whatever it is— could that be a direct relationship to How the whole family unit functions?

I think sometimes it's a symptom of generational trauma. It's a symptom of a family being invested in structures that aren't meant for them. So I think it's easy— it's a lot— it's very easy for folks to say, oh, my mother's like this, my mother's anxious, my dad's anxious, I got my anxiety from them. But it's— and it's better to say, well, listen, how can we help you in the place that you are in today to feel that anxiety in a way that feels safe, a way that you can still express it without it disrupting your life? And I think when you help the whole family do that, the better the outcomes are because you're now breaking a cycle of Everyone in my family has anxiety. Everyone in my family copes with anxiety and is at home and comfortable and is successful, whole, all these whole-bodied words that we want to use to describe folks.

Yeah, okay, I like, I like all of that and where it's going, and I wish that was something that was more evident, but I mean, I want to tie in the last part of, you know, we're painting a picture here. So the, in the Previous question, we were talking more about medications given. So, um, how can— like, if someone's wanting to go through these processes, it seems to me like they need a clear mind. How can one think clearly when they're on medications?

I think the thing with medication is sometimes it's necessary, and I'm not here to say anyone— to anyone to stop taking their medications. I'm not a doctor. It's not— I don't personally prescribe medication. And typically what I do with a client is if they are using medication right now, we kind of talk about— it's important to talk and recognize what those effects are. So you're able to separate yourself from, okay, this is a symptom of the medication. And it's been interesting to find out that the FDA, they only find that 1 to 10% of all the adverse drug effects are reported by patients and practitioners because most often we just miss it and don't see it. So I think with medication, it requires mindfulness. It requires mindfulness that this might not be— this might not be my most authentic self. This might be a tool that I'm using to cope right now, or a tool that is going to be lifelong for me. And what are the effects that I need to be mindful of? What effects do I need to speak to my doctor about? What effects would I like to change? And sometimes we can speak to that and through those embodiment practices, like becoming connected with our bodies, whether it's through movement, whether it's through creativity, whether it's through breathwork. All these things can still happen in conjunction. To get people to the point of the realization as to whether they need the medication or don't. And that's also a decision I think folks find that they can speak to their doctor about when their doctor is willing and open to have a conversation. And if your doctor isn't willing and open to have a conversation about it, it's also time to kind of look for a new doctor who's willing to explore and be open to a more holistic approach.

And I would say that those questions that you raised a minute ago would be great to bring up to a psychologist or your, your possible future next, like, you know, mental health therapist, so that you can weed out how important is using medication for you. Is this something that you're willing to have a conversation about? And can, can we look at options how to, how to eventually come off of the medication? Because I don't personally want to be on it for life. I hear a lot of these types of frameworks, right, from people who are looking. And I often hear the frustration in the voice of, well, all this therapist wants to do is prescribe medications. So I'm, you know, we brought up the difference between— in our conversation prior to getting on this call, we brought up the difference between how we do it here as opposed to Europe and the distinct difference. Can you talk more about what they're doing to bring about more— these more sustainable results that you're talking about and not using quite as much medication?

Definitely. So it actually starts with early childhood. And whenever I say that, people think, okay, well, do we really have to start early? Most people don't start exhibiting mental health symptoms till they're teenagers, or they don't start till they're in their early 20s, or it's just something that happens. And when we look at it within the platform of sustainable development with early childhood, we have to look at pre-primary education. And that's one of those things that sets us up, sets us up as children for physical, cognitive, psychosocial, socio-emotional development, all these things that are big contributors to our mental health. And in Europe and encouragingly Mexico, places within Sub-Saharan Africa, so Ghana, Angola, they are doing a really great job right now in increasing enrollment in pre-primary education. And throughout Europe right now, it's about 81%. And I can tell you, United States specifically falls far below that. And we're basically not giving children this ability to have the best start in life. And without the best start in life, your child is now exposed to other stresses, to the lack of some of those developmental factors that we spoke about. And when we're— We're basically giving our children the resources they need when we enroll them in these pre-primary educational spaces, because we're now setting them up for better mental health, we're setting them up for better development, and we can stop it right there. We can get to the point where we don't have this increase in mental health diagnoses when they're in their teenage years, their 20s, or young adulthood. So I believe in stopping it right there, get to the point while we still can.

Well, what is the— I mean, I'm, I'm I'm just confused. I'm thinking about— I know that here in the States we have preschools, and then before preschools there was even, you know, education programs, private education programs that you can enroll your 3-year-old in, 4-year-old, you know, the pre-preschool.

Yeah.

So is it the difference in— is it at what age, or is it a curriculum? Are we teaching the kids something different in our pre-preschools as opposed to in other parts of the world that are having these sustainable results?

Definitely. So actually, it's more so the lack of enrollment. Those resources are there, and parents and adults are actively choosing to not use them. And that's the interesting thing too, because there's a lot more in terms of outdoor classrooms, a focus on play, a focus on encouraging experimentation and freedom within some of the preschool, pre-primary environments throughout Europe, where in the US, Canada, they're a little bit more structured. They're more like a kindergarten format where we do this at this time of day and this is here to build this part of curriculum. So the educational aspects are more so focused within pre-primary education, but there haven't been as much research research done on some of those large differences. It is noticeable, and I do imagine it does contribute, but more so the research I've personally looked into is on the matter of enrollment.

Okay, maybe it's just areas, different pockets of the nation that focus on that, because where I'm at in LA, it just seems like there's quite a few people who are using those resources. But maybe again, I'm—

maybe I'm out of touch.

That's okay. But, you know, so that's, that's how to prevent it. And I think that's, that's fantastic because I think kids, they— children, young children, they need time with their mom. That's one thing. But at some point they need the socialization. So switching gears over to now you're an adult or even a teen who's, like you said, experiencing those early onset, you know, depression, PTSD, or had a traumatic experience, right? And they're trying to get help, but they're feeling the frustration of not having the resources. What, what can they, what can they do as an alternative and possibly even look to look at being outside of their— what's, what's covered under insurance?

So I think the big thing is, especially something I say to parents of teenagers, teenagers, Is the idea that this coaching and practice, it's not stigmatizing. We're not fixing it. We're not looking to find someone to fix you because you're broken. We're not saying anything's wrong with you. You just— it's just like how elite athletes need coaches and they have to practice. And sometimes when we're going through points of emotional dysregulation, we just need to continuously practice. And a lot of times that means is Finding, finding things that make them resilient. And that doesn't always look like therapy.

Building their muscles. Got it.

Okay.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I think with resilience, I always view resilience as this idea of, let's look at executive functioning skills. And teenagers at this point, they're, they're not quite there yet. They might have some skills to overcome challenges. They might know how to manage threats. They may know how to persevere in adversity, but the brain circuitry is still developing. Like our prefrontal cortex, it's not going to be there until we're about 25, 30 years old. And I think that's the thing to remember as well, is to have a focus. So when we're looking at holistic practices, we may look for some of the embodiment tools, especially for teens. So things like dance, martial arts, creative expression programs. We might look at yoga. We may look at music therapy. We may look at art therapy. For younger, even younger teens as well, play therapy can still be relevant. I know most folks suggest stopping it at 12, but helping your teenager connect with their inner child in a world that having them focused on, having them focus on growing up so fast, especially When they've begun to experience trauma, some of the adverse effects of the world, we can look for other individuals who are here to help and support. And that doesn't always mean looking for, looking for the best therapist in your area. It can sometimes mean looking for a youth group that meets on a Tuesday evening. It can mean looking for A local dance class that meets at the community center, and now even online different— there are so many like journaling groups for teens or yoga classes especially geared to teenagers. And all these things that can bring them back into themselves and into that idea of making their body home again can give some insight with their mental health. And a lot of folks will say teenagers don't have insight. Or they're not able to gain that. They have so much insight.

They do.

They're a lot of fun.

Yeah.

They really do. And they understand their environment that they're in. They understand their capabilities. They understand consequences of relationships. Just giving them space to set goals, make plans, shift their lives into a positive direction. And especially for parents, It's so important that they give them suggestions for some of that goal-directed behavior and ultimately allow your teenager to decide what they choose to do, because that's giving them an embodied way to move through their life successfully.

Well, you're describing what I consider a well-rounded person, somebody who's tried the arts, tried dancing, they've tried music, they've tried sports, they've tried yoga, they've tried, you know, they've tried journaling, writing, all of these things. But this, to me, I feel like, shouldn't all of this be part of our regular school experience so that you can develop what you just said, our preferences, what we like, what we're in love with, you know, early understanding of what gives us a sense of confidence?

Yeah.

Do we feel— is this possibly what's missing out of the reading, writing, and arithmetic? curriculum in regular school?

So I would say yes. And one of the conversations I have quite frequently, especially growing up and not having— and I call it the plight of the gifted child. And I think most children are gifted in their own ways without realizing— is what happens is we're really good at something, or we're really good at everything. And we are praised Solely on the things we're good at, and yet we're told to develop ourselves in areas in which we struggle with. And I think if we stopped— we stopped with some of the shame and blame, and we allowed, even if it was one course a day, where we encourage this goal-directed behavior and resilience, because if you're passionate— And one thing I always tell the parents when they're trying to get their child to read, And learn to read is if your child is interested in experiments and science and they want to know how things work, print off some directions for an experiment. Maybe it's baking soda and vinegar.

Mm-hmm.

During that practice, they're going to learn to read more words than they would doing— with reading a book that's supposed to be age-appropriate because they're interested. They're going to remember. And it's the same thing throughout the school curriculum. And obviously those projects can get harder and be monitored by a facilitator. It would be amazing if you had a facilitator or a teacher or an educator who can help students focus their attention and set goals throughout their education journey, not just when they're entering their sophomore, senior years in high school.

Gosh. We have so much work to do. I mean, I feel it, Bill. We are, we are co-creating this, this idyllic, what we wish our education system can be, and it's directly related to our mental health.

Mm-hmm.

Not only as kids, but as we get into adulthood and we're trying to— what my favorite term— we're trying to adult, we're adulting. And some kids, especially they're getting into their early 20s and trying to get through college, then they'll have what we now term as quarter-life crisis. I mean, these are, these are very real, real things, experiences of them. But we're getting really short on time. And I just want to wrap, wrap this up. I know that you offer something and I wanted you to kind of talk about it. What do you have for our listeners today?

Definitely. So I have a 15-minute call. So for anyone who's interested in some of these embodiment practices, maybe you're a family looking to seek support, Maybe you're another provider who wants to be a part of the change. Those are the people who I'm specifically looking to give this call out to. If you feel you fit into one of those categories, please don't hesitate to book in the calendar. I would love to chat with you about more of this and very happy to always talk researcher— research with other researchers as well.

Oh, beautiful. Collaboration is the key. Do you have that link handy so I can Make sure to share it.

Definitely. So it's just calendly.com/eaginnovation.

Got it. And we're going to have calendly.com/eaginnovation, that link in our show notes on the episode page. So don't worry if you missed it. And I just want to say, Alicia, thank you so much for being a part of the show. And I want to ask you one final question. As I ask all my guests, what do you feel is the most important thing to remember when searching for answers when a person hears from a doctor, we just don't know?

Hmm, I think with mental health specifically is look for peers. Look for folks who have experienced similar things as you, who are looking to get on a similar track. So maybe folks who are looking to heal in a certain way. Maybe it's you begin to start attending yoga class and you talk to people and they're like, yeah, I'm here because I have similar symptoms of anxiety. I think there's such a value in sharing our lived experiences and knowing we're not alone when it comes to mental health. And we can make changes when we view others also making changes and inspiring us and connecting with them. I think that's really the value here with anytime a doctor gives you the I don't know answer with mental health.

Beautiful. Good things to remember. Well, thank you again for being on the show. I so value your time. And this has been a real treat.

You're absolutely welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah.

So you have been listening to When Doctors Say We Don't Know. This has been an engaging conversation. And I'm hopeful that those of you listening will hear that message of hope That I so long to bring to each and every one of you to turn your experiences of pain into triumph. If you are driving and can't click on the links to the show notes, remember you can always hop on theelevateinstitute.com, follow the podcast links to today's show. There's more to talk about. Tune in next week for our next episode of When Doctors Say We Don't Know. This is Eva Vennari reminding you to question everything.