Fran Dargaville | When Doctors Say, "We Don't Know" Podcast | Episode 105

Welcome to the show. My name is Eva Vennari, founder of the Elevate Institute, and I'll be your host for today's podcast. When Doctors Say We Don't Know is an inclusive conversation. So many are craving to share their stories and experiences, and today's guest is no exception. Today's honored guest is Fran Dargaville, and she is a functional nutritionist and speaker with master's degree in human nutrition, specializing in gut health. Fran, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Oh, I'm loving the outpour of interest in having these conversations. And there's never really a repeat of any of these stories. Everybody's are so unique and I'm loving this. Like yours is all about chronic fatigue. So tell me, tell me more about having this conversation and what it means to you to be able to convey that about chronic fatigue here.

Yeah, absolutely. So for me, it was, it was a huge process to, you know, getting to that point of chronic fatigue diagnosis, basically, which is a bit of a trash can diagnosis, as they say.

Yes.

So, you know, even that, really tired for a certain period of time, essentially. So I am very, very passionate about having this conversation because, you know, really, for my own experience going to so many different doctors and practitioners and being told again and again that, you know, they couldn't find anything quote unquote wrong with me and they didn't really know what was going on. So I was never really given any answers or any, you know, solutions, which is what I was so desperately craving. So having been through that whole process and, you know, now spending Speaking with clients who have been through a similar thing, I think it's such an important conversation because there's so many people out there struggling and it can feel really isolating and lonely. And I think it's really incredible to have these conversations so that people don't feel so alone. They know people— that people have, you know, been along this path before them and that there is hope and, you know, there's something that they can do as well.

Something beyond just, here's the diagnosis, which of course brings down the anxiety. Now you have something to put your finger on and say, oh, okay, great. But then once you cognize that, well, what do you do with it? So for you, what was it that doctors— you had some symptoms, so what were you bringing to them that they were saying, nah, everything's normal?

Yeah, absolutely. So my main symptom was fatigue. And it's funny because I look back now and I'm like, oh, my digestion was a mess. My skin was terrible. I had acne. I had terrible brain fog. I had all of this stuff going on. But all that I was really saying to the doctors was how tired I was because that was my number one symptom. That was the thing that was really, really impacting my day-to-day life. So that was the thing I just kept turning up to all these different doctors and just saying, I'm so exhausted, you know, you don't understand how exhausted I am. And got all of these interesting responses to that statement.

Oh, can I ask what were the responses?

Yeah, absolutely. So very variable. So I got the first time I had chronic fatigue, so that was as a teenager. I went to, you know, a bunch of different doctors and I got, you know, this is just a phase because you're 17 and it's normal to feel tired, even though I was sleeping 14 hours a night and still feeling exhausted and falling asleep in my classes in high school.

Wow.

So, you know, it's normal. It's just a phase, which I was a bit skeptical about even as a teenager. I also was told by a different doctor that, you You know, maybe you're just a doormouse and you're just a tired person and some people are just tired and that's just— they were not particularly helpful. And then there were many more conversations along the way. But another one that I find quite entertaining and frustrating in retrospect, I was very frustrated at the time, but that was with an endocrinologist. I paid $400 to be there in this appointment. They'd already run a bunch of tests. I was in there for about 10 minutes and in the end, they didn't find anything, again, quote unquote, wrong with me. So he just recommended that I have an extra cup of coffee in the afternoon to, you know, see me through the afternoon.

Sorry.

I know. I didn't get any nutritional recommendations. I didn't get, you know, anything about, I don't know, stress management or sleep or Whatever. All I was told to do was have an extra cup of coffee in the afternoon. I was like, hmm, that seems like questionable advice. So these were all the things that I, you know, luckily I was doing a lot of my own research at this time, you know, by the time I was in my early 20s. So I had already been looking at the pieces around nutrition and stress management and all of those kind of things. Because of this, you know, questionable and unhelpful advice that I'd been experiencing. So luckily I had all of that going on in the background and it wasn't the only information that I was receiving. But to be looking for help and looking for answers and to, you know, get advice and comments like that is very, very frustrating and disheartening, as I'm sure you can Relate to as well.

Well, I laugh on this side of it because I do relate. There have been times when the doctor's back is turned and, you know, you hear the mutterings of, I think you need psychological help. You know, that's— this is a common, common response that I hear that doctors are giving people when they don't have any other— that like the patient won't take medication or, you know, the advice like take an extra cup of coffee in the afternoon isn't seen as a valid, you know, Treatment. And I agree with you. I mean, I don't know about— I think everyone can tell you have an accent. You're not here in the States where I am, right? So do you have Starbucks on every corner the way we do?

Not every corner, but we have it on a lot of corners.

I find it really interesting. I ask only because that is the common treatment, if you will. People are self-medicating to get through the day. So I'm wondering, on top of that, How many people do you think go undiagnosed as having chronic fatigue?

Yeah, well, I suppose a lot, I'm sure. However, with chronic fatigue, I, I feel that it is a diagnosis, as I sort of mentioned briefly. And when I eventually found a functional medicine doctor who helped me a lot, there were still some sort of shortfalls, I suppose. But they did actually mention a fatigue clinic, a chronic fatigue clinic, which is in Sydney, the city that I'm in. And, you know, she said, this is something that you could consider, and this is something that you would be eligible for. However, you know, given you're already eating really well and you're, you know, doing your gentle movement and that kind of thing, I'm not sure that you would actually get all that much benefit from it. So this is like the, I suppose, gold standard of treatment for that condition in the conventional world. And, you know, she didn't particularly see all that much benefit for me to do that, and neither did I either, because, you know, I was already doing a lot of these pieces. So I find that quite interesting because That kind of goes to show that again, maybe, maybe it's not all that helpful. And I think it is very important to keep pursuing a diagnosis. But in the interim, there are so many things that you could do, you know, eating, you know, finding a bio-individual whole foods way of eating that works for you, and stress management and sleep and working on your mindset and all of these kind of pieces that whether or not you have a diagnosis are going to benefit you. So of course you can continue to pursue the diagnosis, but it's not the be-all and end-all. And, you know, in some cases, like with something like chronic fatigue, for example, you may get, you know, you may be able to fully recover by doing those things alone.

Each person, just like they have their own individual thumbprint, fingerprints, their chronic fatigue, even though it may Symptomatically appear to be similar in nature, how you go about resolving it, it's not impossible, it's just really difficult.

Yeah, and I think, you know, in my case as well, it's— yes, it's chronic fatigue, but there were lots of little things along the way. For example, you know, different nutrient deficiencies and My digestive function wasn't working optimally. So it's not like I, you know, had a parasite or, you know, any big sort of other diagnoses, but there were lots of little things as well, which is, you know, that is likely the case, not necessarily something that you can say, oh, that's fully the reason why, otherwise you wouldn't get that chronic fatigue diagnosis. But there are, you know, often like lots of little factors that we can address and work on. And then also, you know, these, these sort of foundational aspects like eating well and, and the things that I mentioned before, whatever is going on with you will make a difference. So they're definitely worth pursuing. You know, I think a lot of people really just want to hold out until they get that diagnosis to actually do something. And that can take a really, really long time. And as I mentioned, it doesn't necessarily give you any answers or a clear plan to And how long did it take for you to get the diagnosis?

Well, difficult question, right?

Yeah, probably, probably a couple of years because I think there's just a long, a long period of just saying, I'm just really tired, I don't know what's going on, having all these various tests. And I would say it was a couple of years. And the, you know, the first time around as a teenager, that More like a year, I suppose. And then second time around, it took a little bit longer because, yeah, I went and did lots and lots of different tests. So it's, you know, it's basically excluding anything else. And, and yeah, so probably, probably around, around 2 years, I would say.

Now, you mentioned an awful lot of seemingly unrelated symptoms, you know, the fatigue, the digestion issues, the acne, the brain fog. People don't always put those into one bucket and say, hey, these are my symptoms. What do they mean together? Is there a constructive way to have conversations so that you can get to that diagnosis even faster and move the forward— the conversation forward into, you know, some good quality treatment that's meaningful to them instead of just searching for answers? What's the best way to go about the interaction?

Yeah, so I suppose knowing what I know now, I think the best way to, to do that is to get the support of a functional or integrative practitioner. So obviously, yeah, I'm a functional nutritionist, but in terms of getting a diagnosis, you want a medical doctor to do that, but someone that has an awareness of all the sort of potential root cause and, and what's going on and is, you know, willing to explore things that aren't Generally explored in the conventional system, because it could be a really simple fix. But also what I found, I'm sure it's not the case for everyone. There are, without a doubt, there are, you know, regular medical doctors, but there's probably, you know, functional or integrative practitioners who are not particularly patient or compassionate. But from my own personal experience, The time, you know, I, I got to spend a lot more time with my functional doctors explaining my symptoms, explaining what was going on, and they really got to understand the whole picture versus, you know, often if you go to, you know, depending on what kind of, of doctor you go to here, you could be either in and out the door in 5 minutes.

Yes.

Or, um, you know, maybe 20 minutes tops. So it's really hard for them to get the whole picture of what is going on for you. So that can make that whole process a lot longer, and they'll refer you to this person and that person, and it can just go on for a long time. So I think, yeah, I think it's definitely worth, if possible, going down the route of a functional medicine practitioner or integrative practitioner, um, because Yeah, it'll make the whole process hopefully a lot more efficient and effective.

That was less time in the mystery of, we don't know what this is, and more time in, let's find people who do know what it is. And that's, that's always a stretch of the imagination if you don't know what you don't know. Like, you don't know that there's functional practitioners out there that are well-versed in all of this. And even as a patient, I remember having chronic fatigue and not being able to even have the energy, that's tongue-in-cheek right there, to explain how tired I really was. It's like there's a place, and maybe you've got the same experience, where you know you could go to sleep for 2 weeks and wake up and still not have your sleep deficiency covered.

Mm-hmm.

Right? So is there a stronger way? I'm going to hone in on this because I know a lot of people who are suffering with chronic fatigue And they get to this place where they are just so used to it and suffering and muddling through and self-medicating and saying, well, this is normal for me, much like what your own doctor did. It's like, how can they really get in touch with this is not normal, it's just common, and I want to get back to normal, and what does normal look like? It's like the difference between the two we lose. So what are some really good strong ways that a— like, how— what words can we use to communicate even with the functional practitioner when we're in front of them? What's the best way for a person who has this to say, this is what I've got?

Yeah, absolutely. So I think keeping some sort of, uh, you know, journal. I, what I do with my clients is a food and mood journal, but you know, the food journal part of it is very helpful, but even with regard to your symptoms, to actually keep track of those, especially when you have brain fog and your memory isn't, you know, quite where you'd like it to be. And also, To write down the level of, you know, for example, how it's affecting your life. So that can even be in stories. For example, you know, if you've locked yourself out of the house or you've lost your wallet for the 10th time that week, you know, these kind of things.

Yes.

I'm not sure if you can relate.

Yeah.

But all of those kind of things just were happening at an extreme frequency, which was just not normal. And when I looked back at that and the amount that those things were happening, I could realize, okay, this, this isn't normal, you know, that there's really something going on here. So I think keeping track of that, keeping that all in one place, and also writing down these things before you show up to an appointment or taking someone with you or both of those things. So I would often take my mum with me to appointments. So I was very lucky because she's a nurse, so she's got that medical background, and she'd also seen everything that I was going through. So that was really helpful. But, you know, I would also write down the things that I was experiencing just to keep track of that, because, you know, often you can get in there, and especially if you only have 5 or 10 minutes with the doctor, you know, it can be really time pressured to think about what to say. So you can have your bullet points of what you want to communicate to them and then anything that you think is relevant, you know, those, those stories of forgetfulness or, you know, not being able to get out of bed in the morning or having those huge crashes in the afternoon or whatever that is for you.

Yeah, because it could be something like you said earlier, some of these things, some of the symptoms can be helped with diet changes and while others are deeper than that, could be parasitic in nature, it's just very complicated. You had an inside track. You had your mom as a nurse that was able to be a sounding board to you. That's very cool and uncommon. Do you think that also gave you a little bit more— backbone might not be the right word, but more of a desire to stand up and say, look, I do have somebody who knows what they're talking about next to me here, even if she's not in the room with you? Did that make it easier to stand up to doctors and say, hey, you need to listen to me?

Yes, I think so. And I think, you know, in my experience, when I had these functional medicine doctors, I just didn't need that anymore because again, like I said, they were particularly compassionate, very good at listening, and my consultations with them would be, you know, up to around an hour. So there would be lots of, you know, digging into what I was experiencing. So that was a little easier. So it definitely helps to have that when you're in that very, I don't know if it's sort of vulnerable or just completely exhausted state. It also does help to have someone there to back you up. Absolutely. And then in the cases with the endocrinologist, for example, where I was just feeling so exhausted, I had waited 4 months or something for this appointment and we were in there for that 10 minutes, you know, often going to an appointment like that, I would walk out afterwards and think, oh, I wish I said this thing, or, you know, I wasn't happy with how that went and I wish I said something about that. And I know for sure if that was just me, you know, I definitely would have— wouldn't have, you know, said up for myself or said something. Whereas, you know, it was very helpful to have my mum in appointments like that in particular. She wasn't there for everything, but she was there at that particular appointment, for example, and could, you know, say, what about this and this? And yeah, and I— it is helpful to have someone, of course, with a medical background as well, but even just someone that knows what you're going through. If you've got that plan of what you want to communicate and—

Yeah.

You know, someone that is, you know, can support you through that whole process as well is very worthwhile if you have that available to you.

Yeah, yeah. No, and that's not something that everybody, everybody has, but I'm hoping that through conversations like this we can give people more of an understanding that what they're experiencing, like you said earlier, they don't have to go through it alone. And, you know, I don't know if you, you have— just switching gears for just a second— when When we think about getting the diagnosis, some people don't want this on their permanent record for the stigma that chronic fatigue carries in the workplace. It's like you have something now, maybe you're not going to be considered for a new job, whether that's brand new to a new company or even promoted within the company. Do you have anything like that going on in Australia? Is this part of the whole thing?

No, we don't. No. And that, yeah, that was never a consideration for me. That's not, you know, with something like chronic fatigue, that is not really a concern here. But what I do see, I can definitely see that that could be a huge challenge and something that would hold you back. But another thing that I see, which is sort of, you know, goes off this, is that when someone, you know, gets a diagnosis like chronic fatigue, for example, and I saw this time and time again in all of these different Facebook groups and, you know, so-called support groups for chronic fatigue syndrome, is people just latch onto that diagnosis and it becomes such a huge part of their identity. And they then let that define a lot of their decisions and how they live their life. And it can be really hard to move on from that once you have, you know, latched onto that and made it a part of your identity. So I think going into anything like this and getting a diagnosis and struggling with symptoms and, you know, whether or not that affects your employment moving forward, it's really important to be mindful of how that, you know, diagnosis or how your symptoms or how any labels that you've put on yourself are affecting how you live your life.

Yeah, it is an identity— I want to call it a crisis when you've got yourself a nice diagnosis as a label. I can— I have noticed that people do that. So you transcended this abyss from having just a diagnosis and a name onto some recovery. How did, how did you manage that?

Yeah. So I think it was, you know, all of the things that we spoke about in terms of overcoming that. And that got me quite a long way, you know, with the nutrition and supporting my gut health and all of those things. But then I realized that I'm doing all the things, but I'm still not 100% there yet. And then I kind of realized that basically every thought that was running through my head every second of every day was, I better not do this. You know, commit to doing this yoga class because I might, you know, it might be too much and it might push me over the edge. Like these were the thoughts that I was having every second of every day.

Limiting yourself. Yeah.

Yes, 100%. Yeah. And, you know, at this point, I was feeling a lot better and they were no longer true thoughts for me. They were not helpful. So, I know this is probably the hardest thing. You know, people think it's confronting to change your diet, but to change your entire mindset and how you view the world and the thoughts that are going through your head is hugely challenging. Because, you know, we— it's very, very easy for us to get into that autopilot state of just thinking negative thoughts all the time. That's, that's a default for a lot of us. So it is a huge challenge. But I think first observing that. Is an absolute game changer, I think. You know, again, for so long. And it's not just our own thoughts, but the people around us have these thoughts as well often. You know, with my mum, I understand like seeing her watch me go through this whole thing, she would often say, oh, you look so tired today, or, are you looking after yourself? Or I was like, I know, just, I already know.

Newsflash. Yes.

Yes, exactly. And like my partner as well, you know, he'd be worried about me overcommitting to stuff because they'd seen me go through that. And that's, you know, it's— that's not their fault. They're just trying to protect you like you're trying to protect yourself. But time and time again, I had to tell them, you know, could you not say these things? I'm trying to focus on a new way of being. And yeah, for me, it was really recognizing that I had these negative thoughts going through my head all the time and they were really limiting me. And then to choose to think differently. So for me, the opposite of saying I'm so exhausted all the time was I'm healthy and energized. So it was really a matter of me waking up in the morning, repeating that in my mind, and then regularly during the day as I would feel tired and have those thoughts pop up again, I would just come back to that. I'm healthy and energized. I'm healthy and energized. When I was going for a walk, I would tell myself that. If I was sitting down and taking a few deep breaths before, you know, going into a meeting or something like that. I would just be repeating these thoughts all the time or, you know, in my yoga class or whatever it was. And, you know, that is a challenging thing. And it's not like something like you can take the supplement and snap your fingers and have instant results.

Right.

So it takes work. But for me, I really saw a shift with that when I started to commit to that. And Even if, you know, for example, you don't— if you're skeptical, then at least think about the fact that you get to think positive thoughts about how healthy and energized you could feel in all of those moments instead of thinking those limiting beliefs. So it doesn't matter whether you, you know, believe it or think it'll work. At least you're in a positive frame of mind, which is just a much more enjoyable place to be in.

Now you've got me curious because all, all of this work makes me wonder, did you always want to be a health practitioner?

No.

You seem to have this intuitively. Yeah. So how did this go? Yeah.

So I, I didn't actually, you know, it's, it's funny thinking back now. I think there were certain things like I, um, have wanted to be a doctor as a teenager and my mum being a nurse was always like, oh no, you don't want to get into the medical field. It's not a great place to be and there's a lot of liability and all that kind of stuff. So I was like, well, okay, all right. So yeah, so I went and studied town planning because, you know, that's a great place to— great way to get a job in Australia, lots of jobs and you get paid really well. And then I ended up working in a government job that I really didn't enjoy. And even before the whole chronic fatigue thing, I spent all of my, you know, every spare second listening to podcasts and watching YouTube videos and reading books about nutrition. Although that was not the sort of functional approach to nutrition, that was more about, you know, aesthetics and weight loss and all that kind of thing. So I know that wasn't the healthiest sort of perspective on that. But yeah, I always had an interest in that. And this just sort of forced me to pursue it even more. And that's how I ended up studying nutrition, really just to learn more for myself with the hope of helping myself overcome chronic fatigue.

Which, yeah, as we're seeing, this is not a simple fix. It's not going to be something that is over in a short period of time. People tend to develop these things over the course of their life, and it just Seems to get worse and worse, but it can be made worse by being, especially having a government job you don't like, that can make things worse. Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

People don't acknowledge that as something that could be contributing to like a chronic illness or something like that. But for me, of course, it's not the only factor, but it was a huge factor for me being in a very negative environment with, you know, also like a negative emotional environment. And then also things like Oh, there's a day when bleach is just running through the air conditioning system in the entire building and no one can go home and all that, you know, that kind of stuff as well.

Your focus on your practice, it's not necessarily in chronic fatigue though, is it?

No, it's not. And yeah, I work with mostly people with chronic digestive symptoms, IBS, reflux, and things like that. And I did initially start working with people with chronic fatigue, but what I— this is very controversial and I've definitely never said this in a public platform or forum before, but—

Everybody get your ears on.

Yeah. Oh gosh, this is confronting for me to say out loud, but what I've found with Speaking with and working with quite a number of people with chronic fatigue in the early days of my business was that the story that I was getting from people and the sort of perception that I made from that was that a lot of these people have really, really latched onto that identity and don't really want to get better. You know, there's just not the motivation to get better. It's almost know, they're in a very resigned place. And this is absolutely not everyone, but this is the experience that I, I was having with people. And that really upset me. You know, I, I found it very challenging to, to deal with. And again, like I said, it's, it's absolutely not everyone, but I think there are a lot of people with chronic fatigue that get to that point. And it's, it's a very, very challenging condition when you're not getting a lot of answers and that sort of thing. So, but I also experienced a lot of digestive symptoms in myself. I was never diagnosed with IBS, but I'm sure I definitely had some degree of that. I had a lot of personal troubles with that as well. So, and a lot of the people that I work with, with IBS and digestive issues also have fatigue as well. So it's, again, it's very, very common to have these symptoms together. But I've found the people that I'm working with today are very, very motivated to make these changes and, and get better. So I suppose that's why I've sort of made that transition. Because I definitely still work with a lot of people with chronic fatigue. That's just not my, my main focus today for that reason.

Yeah, I mean, it's easier when they— when there's an understanding that they can get better. And without that little kernel of hope, there kind of is no reason to let go of the story. So I'm hopeful that in coming out of your comfort zone and admitting that very real truth, I think maybe that can be heard now. And so I appreciate that. So thank you for being transparent. And maybe that can bring somebody that kernel of hope. So I want to say, you know, as folks are listening to you, is there an offer that you have or a free gift that you'd like to make to the audience members who are listening in, how they can connect with you?

Yeah, absolutely. So I do have a podcast and share lots of all of this kind of information over there and my Instagram as well. But I also have a couple of free downloadable ebooks. So I have a gut healing roadmap and a gut-friendly meal prep guide, which you can just find over on my website, frandargaville.com.

Wonderful. frandargaville.com. I'm going to have, in case you're driving, I'm going to have that information on our show notes page wherever you are listening to this podcast. So thank you for that. And so, Fran, final question: what do you feel is the most important thing needed for us to stay on a track for healing?

Yeah, so I think this is going to be a 2-part answer. Okay, so I think, uh, the most important thing really would be the, the mindset piece that we spoke about. I think that is just huge. And that is really, you know, firstly, believing that you can get better and having that hope is so, so important. And then, you know, thinking about what that would look like for you and visualizing your, your healthiest self. And, you know, whether that's through just a visualization or through sort of affirmations that I mentioned, you know, I'm healthy or I'm energized or whatever it is for you. I think that is really helpful and important. And then the second part of this whole process is listening to your body and trusting your body and just believing that your body knows best. And, you know, if you think something isn't quite right, then you deserve to have answers and you definitely absolutely should keep digging until you find answers. But it doesn't need to let you, you know, it doesn't need to stop you from focusing on the foundations of health and improving your diet and, you know, sleep and stress management and all of those things.

Well said. Well said. And I'll take that. So I want to say thank you again for being our guest today. I really appreciate your time here.

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a great conversation.

Good. I'm glad you were here. Fran, thank you again for being our guest on When Doctors Say We Don't Know. This has been an engaging conversation. I'm hoping that those of you listening will hear that message of hope. It really is. That's the key here is hear the message of hope so you too can turn your experience of pain into a triumph of healing. If you're driving and can't click on the links to the show notes, remember you can always hop on the Elevate Institute.com and follow the podcast links for today's show. There's more to talk about. Tune in next week for our other episode. Next one's coming, When Doctors Say We Don't Know. This is Eva Vennari reminding you to question everything.