Joanna S Williams | When Doctors Say, "We Don't Know" Podcast | Episode 309

Welcome to the show. My name is Eva Vennari, founder of the Elevate Institute, and I'll be your host for today's podcast, When Doctors Say We Don't Know. This is an inclusive conversation, and so many are craving to share their stories and experiences, and today's guest is no exception. Today's honored guest is Joanne S. Williams. Joanne is a 30-year veteran licensed mental health professional. She counseled clients struggling with anxiety, That can be crippling to life potential. I think a lot of us are there right now. She has had the pleasure of watching transformations happen from old negative habits to embracing lasting positive changes. Joanne, welcome to the show.

Oh, thank you.

Yeah, nice to be here. I love that we're getting such a broad range of guests, and you being a health— mental health practitioner really helps to balance us out and kind of fill in some gaps. And so I think we've gone through some amazingly difficult times over, you know, 2020. And somebody said recently 2021 is going to be a repeat, and I'm going, what?

I hope we've learned something out of this year. Let's don't repeat it.

Well, and, and isn't that the important thing is like We have all of these opportunities, you know, that's, that's the buzzword back in the '90s when, when, when the corporations were like, it's not a problem, it's an opportunity.

Yeah.

And I think we're here again, we have some opportunities to learn how to cope with these extreme measures of stress being just thrown at us all the time. So I want, I want to kind of just keep that in our conversation, but I want to ask because This is such— this is the whole reason we're here. Have you ever been in a position to either receive the answer, we don't know, from a doctor? And then vice versa, have you as a mental health practitioner have been in that position to have to say it? So it's a big question, and I'm going to let you roll with it.

Thanks. You know, the one that comes to mind though was with my children. I lived on an island off the coast of Maine, and 45 minutes by boat ride to the mainland. So you had to get pretty good about little things medically, or, you know, bee stings or whatever. You had, you know, I knew what herb to use. And, and my son— we were a lobster fishing family. And my son, who was probably 12, He was working on a metal lobster pot, they would call it, or trap. And a metal shard, or several actually, metal shards went right into his eye.

Ooh.

And it was over the 4th of July. And I remember him, you know, coming to me and kind of freaking out. And I'm like, I was too. So we went into the doctor and it was a doc— it was our main doctor, but, you know, our regular doctor. And he said, oh, it'll be fine. Just let it pus and come out.

Oh.

And I mean, I would hope any mother would go, I don't think so. My son's eye is very important. And so I'm like, no, I think you better pass. This was in the beginning kind of of HMOs. And I'm like, so I had to go to this one first, which I would have gone to an ophthalmologist you know. And I said, no, you need to send me to the specialist now. And we got in within a day or so, and— or maybe even the next day. And he said, absolutely, you don't ever do anything like that with your eye. You must have this taken. And he pulled out these shards, and there were several wire shards out of his eye.

Wow.

And I, you know, being living on the island, you just had to use common sense to know when you have to call, what you have to do. And I did it. I feel like my intuition as a mother kicked in in those instances. And I knew, you just know, that's not the answer. And I had to figure it out myself. And I feel like a lot of times at doctors, that's what I always had to do, go in knowing what I felt I needed and wanted.

Oh, yes.

So I had to be clear. I also worked with a medical group as a medical— I was a supervisor of actually the social services department. And we had a group of doctors that we worked with. And we would do this, the psychological piece with their patients. So they were also our patients. So they would refer them to us for different things. And just one thing that one of the doctors said to me really stuck in my head. And he says, you know, Joanne, 85% of every issue that I hear from my clients are stress-related.

Hmm.

And so he could recognize his limitations of what he can do medically with stress, and he only could refer them on for counseling or talk about medications maybe that would help with anxiety or something. Maybe this has gone into overwhelm or depression. But he was totally at a loss if 85% of the issues that were going on were stress-related. I just never forgot that.

That's a lot.

Yeah, it is.

And, and stress is such a, a big, huge, um, I mean, it's undefined. I mean, yeah, how can we, how can we bring that closer to something that is at least tangible? You know, when it comes to stress, like, what, what was he talking about? Do you have a better definition there?

Yeah, well, you know, like you're saying, it is so varied, and each one of us— whatever might be stressful to me may not be stressful to you. So I think it really is relative to what's going on in our lives, what's happened previously, in our lives, maybe growing up, maybe you had a dramatic or traumatic household where things happened where already your senses might be on edge, which would push you into a stress response much quicker. But a lot of times we really are talking anxiety, we're fearful, or we're on the other side of feeling calm is what I would say that looks at stress, which can go into— then proceed into illness or injury, addictions, loneliness, or, or even death because of this continual barrage of emotions that aren't being dealt with on our body. Are, you know, we— there's ways we can deal with these things, and I think if we don't, that puts stress. If we want to call it that, on our senses or on our body. It's a response.

Yeah, yeah, and it's— that's a really poignant point, if I don't sound redundant right there. The best response repeatedly, you said, can result in death, and it's something that doesn't happen right away unless you're talking suicide. It's like that, that can be something that's planned also, but You could have stress repeated in your life over and over and over again and just have symptoms that lead up to a death that doesn't seem so sudden, right? So mental health can— it really needs to be something at the forefront of our attention right now.

Oh, I couldn't agree more. And it's really one of the reasons why I feel like I want to share more about strategies and solutions for things that we can do that are so simple. And, you know, that's why I have my podcast, Anxiety Simplified, Because there is so many things that if we would maybe choose to look at something in a different way, you could actually find some strategies that are so simple that you won't even believe it.

And fun!

And let's have some fun. Yes.

Yeah. So I mean, I love that you bring in emotional support animals, and this has been something that's been a bit of a trend That has been used to help young ones who have animals bring animals into like a rental or something, even though it says no dogs or cats. It's, it's a way to get around, but really it's a serious issue when you have a mental health or if you have an emotional need that this pet provides. Let's, let's dig into that. I want to hear more about it. What can an animal help do with supports? Yeah. Support the emotions.

Well, it does. I mean, Emotional support, you know, right there in the description. And I think any of your listeners, if they have an animal, it's almost like a secret though, you know. They're like, they don't sometimes want to concede that their animal really does comfort them at night.

Yes.

So they don't feel so lonely, or they feel more energetic when they have their dog, or they'll talk to more people. Or it's, again, another kind of trend that animals are coming to work in more places.

Oh.

And they're finding, like Google, I think some of the really more trendy, younger companies are finding better productivity when an animal is in the vicinity. It doesn't even have to be that one person that brought the animal. So it's really interesting, the research that's been going on around how animals help us. And there's multiple, things. But the way it works to have an emotional support animal— because you may be able to say you have a pet that helps you, but to have a certified emotional support animal means it meets 2 federal laws.

Oh, let's hear it.

And yeah, and then you have these additional rights. So what both of the laws require is that you do have a licensed mental health professional Certify that you meet these 3 criteria, that your animal helps you with a certain daily functioning, like you— it does help you sleep better, it does help you concentrate better, or it does help you maybe to interact with others easier, maybe because you do have social anxiety, or you won't leave the house unless you have your dog. So that is 2 of them, that your animal must help you. With that daily functioning. And then the third one is the licensed mental health professional has to diagnose a diagnosis out of our DSM manual for diagnosing. And there's, you know, I don't know how many hundreds of diagnoses, but we literally have to diagnose it and then recommend that the treatment is having your animal with you. And once they have that, and then they receive a letter that does state that, then they can use that to fly on airlines with their animal if they're small enough, right on their lap or at their feet, and be in what's considered no-pet housing with no fees and no weight limits. And, uh, and again, no fees. So it can be so beneficial to people. And, and most of the diagnoses that I see are around social anxiety or agoraphobia. phobia, which is about really not wanting to leave your house or interact with others, and depression. So those are the major categories that it seems like people really do reach out to have their animal help them.

How interesting that an animal can help a person feel safe enough to leave their house.

Yeah, it's, it's pretty amazing. But if you think about it, if you know of someone, maybe a family member, or maybe one of your listeners, that might have had something happen to them in, you know, earlier life that really left them feeling super insecure, they just don't feel— maybe not even feel right in their own skin, and they need someone with them all the time, their animal really can become that kind of replacement object, we would call it in psychology, that helps them feel more secure to do things. It actually makes them feel a little braver. They'll, they'll still stretch themselves just a little bit to do more things if they know they have their animal by their side.

Well, I'm now— I'm curious. Immediately what comes to mind is maybe the death of the family member. You know, I go morbid. But thinking about being comforted, what other instances— you mentioned depression, but what other life events might a person seek out an animal for this type of help?

You know, I'm going to speak about grief for just a second because, you know, what I see pretty consistently is that when someone loses somebody close, that they slept with, you know, in their bedroom or in their house for 30, 40 years. Yeah, there's a big piece missing in their life— that quietness, that loneliness— and an animal actually can fill that spot. And what I see a lot of times, the diagnosis is separation anxiety from their animal if they don't have them there after a loss. So I really see that that is something that helps people with grief, is to have their animal with them. But for your question, the other thing that— the other diagnosis that I see that animals really help with is post-traumatic stress disorder, or it's usually known as PTSD. Veterans a lot of times will come back and have seen or experienced some pretty extreme, uh, things in their experience of war. Or if you have had a trauma, whether it is emotional or physical or sexual, in some nature where you really felt your life was threatened, animals fill a spot that, again, if they can go with you and do things, it is so reassuring. So PTSD is another way that I see people don't avoid as much, because that's one of the major symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder is just avoiding life and people, places, and things that might remind them of what happened.

So animals can really I'm wondering if, you know, there's— I remember when COVID first started, the shelters were cleaned out and people went and picked up an animal of their choice. And that to me speaks to this— seems to be an automatic knee-jerk reaction, like a desire to be around an animal, some, you know, Not only for loneliness, but for the stress reduction. So that's awesome. And you don't need to have an animal become certified as a— right, in order to provide that kind of support to you.

Absolutely. And one of the studies that I recently was looking at is even petting a dog or a cat— it could be a rabbit for that matter— 10 minutes actually was shown to reduce cortisol levels. The stress hormone. Just petting an animal. So there's a lot of different things that really can happen when you have an animal around you. One of the, one of the things that kind of— the airlines don't, I think, want to talk about emotional support animals a lot because they think it makes their job harder. But I— it was like one of the ways I've seen that they use them is that 15 different airports actually have handlers walking around with usually dogs. Oh, that's so nice. Because they know the studies have shown it calms the entire environment when an animal is in it. So think about it. If you're— the way it feels to be in the airport, you're waiting, you're wondering, you're hoping or hurrying, you know, to get on a plane, and you see a little doggy walks by. What do you do? I mean, you can't— it's like you smile immediately. That really brings that stress level. Oh, and it just feels like, okay, it's gonna be okay in some way, shape, or form. So animals help us really in ways we— it's more of a sense than understanding it, you know. It's a feeling inside that we get from them.

Yeah, well, it's kind of fun too. I don't know if— I'm one of those people that if I see an animal being walked, you know, a dog especially, outside, I'll greet the dog first before I greet the human.

Absolutely. And that is actually one of the reasons why it helps with people with social anxiety. Is because they don't want the attention on them.

Ah.

And so if they have an animal with them, it's like the icebreaker. You absolutely go for the dog, and you automatically say something like, oh, he's so cute. Oh, can I pet him? And oh, oh, oh. And so that initially just takes that attention off, and then it starts the conversation. Oh, what's his name? And that just breaks the ice for them, and then they're okay to start the conversation or continue the conversation when it You know, the initial conversation starts.

Yeah, I just— I'm like, I don't know what that says about me as a human being. Is it normal? Yeah, but it's just fun. And we do— we have this natural attraction. I think I see that a lot too. And I'm now curious again, as I do, I get curious, and I want to know, how did you get started in working with animals as, you know, support, emotional support animals?

Oh, I, you know, I love to tell this story. You know, like I said, I've been a therapist for 30 years. But about, I think it was about 7 years ago, I was on a plane. And I had my little dog in the bag like you can if they're under 20 pounds, you know, and you have to stuff them under the seat though. And he was just having a really hard time. And he was kind of crying and whining. And, and then I take him out of the bag and put him on my lap and the stewardess comes by, no, you have to put him back in. And So he was having such a hard time, he was making me anxious. And so that stewardess could see I was anxious. And so she told me about this emotional support animal, or ESA, program, that if you get a letter from a licensed mental health professional, you could have your animal in your lap the entire time. I'm like, what? I've been a therapist for 25 years and I don't even know about this program.

Yeah.

And most people don't. It's been around since 1984. And so it's like, what? So I did it. So I did it with an agency, and, and then I understood the process. I'm like, well, why am I not doing it for my clients? If here I understand it now, been through it— that was like 2 years at that point— and use it now to fly. And it just makes the whole experience different. Going there, sitting in the airport waiting, And same thing interacting with people. It just is a much more enjoyable experience to fly. So I continue to have my emotional support animal with me to fly.

Fabulous. Yeah, yeah. No, I think there are many, many good benefits that come out of animals. They were talking about the use of them in what do you call it, hospice, and helping a person pass on, even in recovery in hospitals. I don't know that they're doing that now during COVID but helping people recover from major surgery, things like that. So it really, it's kind of cool that we're tapping into that more. And just to kind of switch subject a little bit, I mean, working with animals is, is one of your specialties, but you also have much to share about what everybody needs to know to live a fabulous life. Tell us more about the list of 10 things you have. It must be secret. And now we're gonna— we're gonna blow the lid off. That's great.

Yeah, well, you know, when I was looking at what makes for a fabulous life, it's some of the things that I wish somebody would have told me.

Oh, goody.

You know, when I was younger.

This is the best. Yeah.

You know, it's like, I hope we gain wisdom as we age, you know, and then we look back and why didn't somebody tell me this stuff? Because it's pretty straightforward and simple. But one of my first ones and favorites is that everybody needs a cheerleader.

Oh.

In their life. And if you don't, if it's not, you know, a spouse or a best friend that goes, you can do this, go girl, you know, and just really propels you to do things that maybe you wouldn't without that. And if you don't have somebody You need to do it for yourself. You really need to find it within yourself to say the things in the mirror that you need to say to that part of yourself that doubts. And just say, you can do this. And it's okay that actually experiencing failure will get you to success.

And there's really— What's failure?

Yeah, there is no such thing. If you continue to move through it, that's how you can— only, only way to get No, I agree.

Yeah, a lot of people are afraid of failure, but that's— you hit a really good point there.

You know, I, I think of the story of Thomas Edison. He even says it took 10,000 tries to get to the light bulb. Yeah, how long would we last?

You know, 10, 10 if we're lucky. This loose thread on my jacket might work here, but if it doesn't I'm done. Yeah.

Where's your cheerleader? I mean, I know that person. You can do it. Come on, you can do it. You know, I think the next one I really— I'm, I am so passionate about this one is that I wish we would make our emotions our secret power. Because if we really understand that half of our brain is on emotional, creative, and the other side is that logic and abstract kind of way of doing things, the doer, or the, the one that's creative on the other side. And that, that's the emotional side. It's kind of your heart or your head side. And if we don't learn how to appreciate our heart in the sense of loving, being happy, and how do we value that instead of saying, I only need to get this number done, or if I only can get this much money in my life, without the feeling connected to it of happiness. And having that harmony, which is your word that I am so happy I'm using more and more, the harmony between the head and the heart. We've got to put them together. And recognizing and appreciating our emotions as that secret weapon will help you to get there because you've got to listen to what it is your heart's saying about that success. Yes, you may have all the most power in the world, But are you happy? Do you feel something every day that you can just grab ahold of and go, ooh, you know, I just love it? And if it's not, then you're not listening to your heart.

Mm-hmm. Yep, I love that one. That's one of my favorites. Like you said, it's about getting into harmony rather than trying to reach balance, because that's an impossible 3.

Absolutely. That's my favorite from you.

Thank you.

Maybe I'll go down the Maybe just another one.

Sure, please.

Yeah, you know, well, another one that I think is critical, and this is what I'm calling a gift to the world, or a gift to your family or your spouse, that is don't blame anybody for anything and don't complain again. Take 100% responsibility for what has happened in your life and the 100% responsibility to change it. And that's the only time you can. I, I've practiced this not complaining about a year ago, and I did it over the holidays with families. And it got to be funny because you would, you know, in the kitchen there's a conversation or the living room, and I would join in. But what did I hear?

Yeah.

Complaining about this, complaining about that person. And so I had to shut my mouth. It was very— I couldn't join in the conversation. And somebody finally said, why aren't you joining in? I'm like, because I'm on a complaining fast and I don't know what to do here. So I just have to go. And, you know, it was just really important for me to realize the amount of complaining I was doing and to stop it. It really feels empowering.

It can be a bit of a habit.

Oh, Terrible habit. I am so glad. And now it makes me think, if I start complaining, even my husband will help now, and not in a bad way, but go, oh. And then I'm like, oh yeah, because you've got to know whatever you are putting out there in thoughts or feelings or saying is expanding. You're getting more of it back at you. And is that what you really want? And that's where your emotions, if you follow them, will actually tell you. How does it make you really feel when you complain or blame somebody else for something that happened? To me, it doesn't feel— make my heart sing at all. But when you go, hmm, maybe I do bear some responsibility in this, and maybe I do need to look at this, I will change that. And you know what? That makes me feel Much better about myself. So I think that I wish for people you would take a complaining fast and see what happens.

I I can't wait to try it out once we're able to mix and mingle. Well, you know, we've been doing family events on Zoom, so that would be interesting. Now I can see all their faces at once when I. You know, stop the complaining. That would be funny. Okay, well, anyways.

See if they notice.

Yes. Yeah. Well, that's fantastic. Thank you. Yeah. So as, as everyone is listening in and we're getting close to the end of our time together, but these are wonderful strategies. And as folks are thinking, I would really like to learn more about Joanne and the work that she does and get in contact with you, what is the best way for people to reach you?

Oh, great. You can go to anxietiesimplified.net, and there's a lot of strategies, resources there. Or you can find out more about how to get certified for emotional support animal right there. So, or contact me through there also. I'd love to give and share even a 10-minute free clarity session if there's some something that's going on in your life that you would like a recommendation about how to move forward with it, I always want to make myself available.

Beautiful. That's very generous. Thank you. 10 minutes. That can change a whole day. It can turn a whole day around. Yeah, because there's so many things for each of us to get excited about, especially if we're excited, and I don't mean in a good way, listening to political news or health news and we're trying to figure out if we're going to be able to keep our jobs, et cetera. And that's a lot of big change. And I think everyone needs to have resources. So thank you so much for those. And I want to ask— I normally ask a final question, and I want to switch mine up just ever so slightly because I think this would be fun. What's the best-kept secret to keep fear in check?

Smile more.

Smile. Okay. Is that it? Is that simple?

Think about it. And if you, if you want a technique that will change your— whether you're sad or fearful in the moment, if you just look up at the ceiling, so, so nobody has to see you, and you just get the biggest grin on your face that you can possibly muster, notice how it makes you feel. It just brings you into a giggle place. You know, it just brings you into a place of feeling good about the world, it just changes things. Because fear, if you know really what truly fear is, it really is false evidence appearing real. It's not happening to you right now. It is just appearing like it is. So if you look up and you look up and you grin and go, you know what, I really am okay right now. Right now. All is good. It can change their outlook.

All right, I'm going to give it a try. Put a smile on the face.

Grin, a big one.

Grin, put a grin. Got it. Well, thank you, Joanne, so much for your advice and for your lovely gift on your website, anxietiesimplified.net. And, you know, gotta listen in on Anxiety Simplified podcast. Because that was great conversation. And thank you for having me on as your guest. But yeah, so such a great resource. So thank you for being here and sharing your time with us.

Thank you.

Perfect. Thank you everyone out there for listening in with our guest today, Joanne S. Williams, on today's show. And thank you for listening in for Doctors When Doctors Say We Don't Know. This has been an engaging conversation. And my goal for those of you listening will hear a message of hope so you too can turn your experience of pain into triumph. If you're driving or simply can't click on the links right now to the show notes, remember you can always hop onto theelevateinstitute.com and follow the podcast links in the menu bars for today's show. There's more to talk about. Tune in next week for another new episode of When Doctors Say We Don't Know. This is Eva Vennari reminding you to question everything.