Michelle Hoffer | When Doctors Say, "We Don't Know" Podcast | Episode 301

Welcome to the show. My name is Eva Vennari, founder of the Elevate Institute, and I'll be your host for today's podcast, When Doctors Say We Don't Know. This is an inclusive conversation, and so many are craving to share their stories and experiences. So today's guest is no exception. Today's honored guest is Michelle Willard Hoffer.

Hi.

Following 30 years of denial, lies, affairs, emotional and physical abuse, along with being left financially devastated, when her former husband emptied the bank accounts to 19 cents. Today, Michelle Willard-Hofer is soaring. Michelle, welcome to the show. Hi. Hello.

Hello. How are you?

Well, you sound so zen.

How'd you do that?

Oh, is that that soaring?

Yes, that's exactly right.

So tell us a little bit more about why you want to be a part of this conversation when doctors say we don't know.

Well, because it is so important for people, and I say people because it could be a man or a woman, for people to understand what happens when you're involved in a toxic or abusive relationship and all these medical problems seem to appear and doctors don't know. Because generally abusers are abusing and they've conditioned the victim to keep it quiet. So you're pushing that down, suppressing, suppressing, suppressing, and now you're suppressing your immune system, and now you're suppressing your thoughts, and now you're suppressing your voice. And this leads to all sorts of sickness, illness, mental confusion. There's an abundance of problems. So that's why I was So honored to speak on this program to help empower people that they need, need to acknowledge what's happening and share, share their story because sharing will help release the toxicity.

And this is such an important point. You hold a lot of wonderful education and I want to get into that starting from elementary education from Penn State, but then going into NLP, neuro-linguistic programming, if people don't know what that is. But it's like being able to talk through some of these conditions, not conditions, but situations. There's one thing, there's a difference between venting and being able to talk it through in a constructive way.

Right.

So, so I want to kind of go down that road and experience it because I know a lot of people right now, especially when we're locked in a home, oftentimes with our abuser, and I'm talking about the COVID state of being, you know, there's no escape, there's nowhere to go, there's nowhere to feel safe. So how can a person who is feeling abused get the help that they need, and what is the best way to vocalize?

Well, of course, if they have finally realized And, and have gotten past the denial, because denial is a real thing and, and it unfortunately takes hold of our minds, and have realized, I am in a really bad situation. Their first thought is usually, how did I get here? What happened? And so while they're— before they even start to formalize any kind of plan, they begin wondering, is there something better I could have done?

Hmm.

And no, no, no, no, no, you did the very, very, very best that you could do given your circumstances. The abuser wants to confuse you and make you think you should have done better. You shouldn't have spent this money. You should have waited on me here. You shouldn't have quit that job. You shouldn't have done this or you should have done this. If only you would have done this. No, no. No, you did the very best you could. That is the very most important piece when they're in that frame of mind, that state, you know, how did I get here? It's because you were conditioned to, to be in that place.

And is it possible that being conditioned is part of a habit from lifelong patterns before you even met this person?

Oh yes, yes. It is part of a pattern and I said yes very quickly, but I want to now back up and go— I want to back up and say no also.

Okay.

Because the abusers are pretty slick, you know, they know what they're doing and for someone who's like, oh, do they not know? Yes. You know, an abuser does. Their whole point is to keep you down and elevate—

Control, right?

Control, keep you down, and to elevate themselves. So, you know, you may have not had this in the past necessarily, but somewhere, somewhere in your past, it may not have been a pattern, but somewhere, and if your mind remembered that familiarity, that Oh yeah, I remember this. And but it forgets that it was painful. So it, it was there in the past somewhere with someone, you know, and maybe you work through it and just, you know, left it in your past where it belonged. And now this abuser has walked into your life and starts again, only they're slick. They start off with You know, the abundance of compliments, and of course we eat that up. And the abundance of love bombing, even if it's a workmate, you know, love bombing comes in a different form, but they, they know what they're doing. And then slowly, slowly, slowly, you know, it builds.

There's something you You touched on in the very first opening of all of this that reminded me of a sense of these abusers may be aware of a sense of shame from this past pattern you're talking about, and while we thought we healed it, maybe we've become numb to it and the association of, um, whatever we felt from this person that was before. I'm stumbling around because I really want to get to this where I feel like there's an association we have with what we feel is normal love.

Right. So what happens at the very beginning is— and it happens really rapidly, so it's like your head is in a spin of wonderful emotion.

The honeymoon period.

But I mean, with a— in a healthy relationship, this honeymoon period is beautiful. And in a In a toxic relationship, your head-spinning honeymoon period is beautiful fast, and it's almost— you, your mind will tell you, your intuition will tell you, this is almost too good to be true. This is almost like crazy that this is— wow, you know. And listen to your intuition because it is too good to be true. What happens is they ask so many personal questions, you know. Tell me about this. In a healthy relationship, Great. In a toxic relationship, you're giving away your deepest, darkest secrets on that first date before dessert. So they get it out of you. They get it out of you and they use it to shame you.

There it is, the shame.

Yes, they get all the information that they want and they will use it. The good stuff, the sad stuff, the bad stuff. The hopes, dreams, goals, all of it. Anything that they want to use or that they notice in you, they will use to shame.

So there's the conditioning, then there's a process from this familiar energy of, I'm going to compliment you, I'm going to love bomb you, I'm going to ask you your most intimate darkest dearest secrets and information about you and use it against you, at what point does, does that— why don't we have that internal intuition that says, wait a minute, this doesn't quite feel right? Like, is it, is it very subtle? Is it very slow ongoing? How does— describe that.

We all have the intuition. It, it 100% of the time showed itself. Let's again use that dinner, um, example. You know, you're at dinner with someone new and, um, Your intuition is going off. You know, it's— I like to pretend— I was a former first grade teacher— that this intuition is like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. You have the Gene Wilder character who is the owner of the chocolate factory and He is going, no, don't, stop, in a very mute, very calm way. No, not good. No. And Augustus Gloop is over there at the chocolate river, you know, pouring all the chocolate he can and then gets sucked up into the tube.

Yeah.

But, but, you know, um, here your intuition is just that way. It's going, no, don't.

Stop.

And yet your ego is going, yeah, someone just said I'm pretty. Someone just said I am wealthy. I am handsome.

Right.

I am this. I am that. You know, your ego will go past that because your ego want— is hungry, is hungry for whatever that one trigger thing that you feel you're lacking, that you think this person sees in you, but they're going to use that against you.

It's almost a perfect storm. It's something that you've been— you're both preconditioned to look at, you know, these opposite sides of the same coin, and they match each other very well. It just happens to not end well for many people. Oh, it does. So I hear this an awful lot with people, and including myself, um, you're Just described a situation that is very, very intimate. It's that internal conversation that goes on in the heart where you may not even have the words to express it yet, but you're feeling a sense of belonging to this person and you're like, oh, this must be a sign, a signal. They see me, they believe in me, they understand me. And often I'll hear when a person's come to the other side of the relationship, or at least wanting out of it because they now feel so terrible in it, They say things like, why didn't any of you, pointing to all of the friends and family, tell me? Right? And even though they did, they couldn't hear it. So what do you say to that person?

Oh, I'll say, yes, I know. That happened to me. Yes, that's so true. When I was no longer in my marriage of 30 years, friends that I hadn't talked to in a long time finally like reappeared. And they said, you know, we knew, we saw this. And I said to them, why didn't you tell me? And I— they said, we did.

Did.

Many times. I said, what did I say back? And you basically— they told me I always stuck up for him. And I was always, or maybe I got upset with someone, but I was generally always sticking up and like, well, you just don't understand him and I do. And that's another trick, you know, like them making you their savior, which no one is anyone else's savior. You know, it, it comes from within. You save yourself. But they make you dependent on them by you being so helpful to them that you become needy. And you're—

you—

it did— did you see it's— or hear that it's back and forth, back and forth, back and forth by one person to the other? It's just a total mind spin. And I asked— I did ask these questions of people in my life, and they said, we did. I convinced my entire family to love him. And that I was such a, you know, I did this or I did that. You know, if something was happening, oh, I should have done this or I should have done that. And, you know, I would own every problem and then make him be so forgiving and how wonderful. They called him a saint. And I—

Really?

Oh yes. I, you know, pushed that. I pushed that image. And that's what a victim does. It does, because that's what a victim is conditioned to do too, you know, we have to do that.

Well, you brought up a really good point. Every single time I've been in, I don't want to say an intimate relationship, but even a friendship, I find myself wanting to talk to people, close friends, about something that just happened as, did I get this right? Did that really just happen? And people around me would say, especially family, they'd say, I've never heard you question yourself so much and that would be a red flag to me that this person, it may not be the healthiest relationship for me. They may not be toxic to other people, but the combination of that person and me together is creating this cavitation, if you will. So what are some signs, things that we can look for in a person that is toxic to us?

Well, always your intuition. Someone who is undermining you, making you feel bad about yourself, that right there is not the person for you. It's not the person for anyone, but it's not the person for you. A person that you're going to be with is going to make you feel better about yourself. They're not going to— I mean, of course, we like to pretend, oh, I'm so, you know, wonderful and this and that in public.

Great.

In private, you know, if you can have adult relationship and an adult conversation saying, you know what, I stand by you. However, what happened out there was, you know, not so great. And the person has an opportunity to become in, you know, look inward and say, yes, you're right, or, you know, oh, I should have done better. That's great. In a toxic relationship, oh, you don't even bring up what you saw or else you'll be harassed, called disloyal, it'll erupt into a terrible all-out screaming at you for something they—

They did. Yes.

So I mean, really being able to have these adult conversations and share your feelings because That is what you need to do for the rest of your life. You can't be quiet for the rest of your life.

No.

You know, that's— but those are some of the things that you really need to— if someone's trying to quiet you, that's never a good sign.

So you're reminding me, of course, of my first husband. This was the description of what you just said, the person private versus public and the public humiliation and the inability to reconcile with me, you know, in private, that describes a good portion of the relationship and it's bringing up a lot of what I used to call narcissistic tendencies.

Okay, yeah.

But I really want to find out if there is an overuse of the word narcissism and if there's something in between, because narcissism really has a very specific definition to it and I want to talk more about that and then talk more about what the other alternative is. So where do you want to start? Sure.

So the narcissist does have a very specific definition that is defined by the DSM-5. That is the American Psychiatric Association from their manual, their manual of statistics and mental health disorders. So they have very stringent guidelines as to what a personality disorder is, what a narcissist is. And no, not everyone is a narcissist, and it is an overused term. You know, just because someone's a jerk, right? I mean, they're a narcissist. Or just because someone, you know, cut in front of you at the grocery store does not mean they're a narcissist. Or just because— Someone has a huge sense of self does not mean they're a narcissist, although, although, you know, one of the things or some of the things with being an actual narcissist, you have to have gone to a psychiatrist. The toxic person has to go to a psychiatrist to get the testing and the evaluation.

Mm-hmm.

And meet specific guidelines. There's 9 categories and they have to just— they have a scale in each of the categories and I'll quickly go over those. First is that grandiose self-importance. Now everybody has self-importance, doesn't mean you're a narcissist.

Yeah.

Okay. You might be really intelligent in some areas. Good, you're owning it. This is a way out of this world, how can this person truly believe this about themselves type of self-importance. Another one is a preoccupation with fantasies— unlimited success, power, beauty, and ideal love. I mean, they are in a fantasy land, a fantasy land. Um, that— there, another one is that they can only be understood Or understood by or associate with, um, you know, just special people.

Yes.

They have an excessive need for admiration, um, and a heightened sense of entitlement, an unreasonable sense of, um, entitlement and expectations, and They want people to treat them differently, you know, better.

Special.

Special. It's, you know, it all relates back to, you know, the, the grandiose. It's all big, it's all overblown. Everything is overblown. Um, oh, and they're, they're usually explosive, you know, they are explosive people. If their needs are not met, or if they believe something and you are not believing it, they will become explosive. They are also exploitative. They will exploit whomever, whatever scenario they can. They will not hesitate taking advantage. They lack empathy. They are They are unwilling to notice the needs of other people. They don't care about other people's needs. They are envious and jealous, and they also think that those people are not as good as them or are stupid. Even though they envy them and are jealous of them, they can quickly contradict that. Everything is just a contradiction with these people, and they're very arrogant. That, that, you know, we all have a little jealousy in us or, you know, like anger towards someone. That's fine. That's fine. We get it. We know it. We acknowledge it. They don't.

Well, I mean, you're bringing up a lot of things that you just said it. We all have a little bit of this in our personalities, but it doesn't make us a narcissist, right? It makes us human.

Human, exactly.

And I keep hearing the same That message of the lack of empathy and inability to put themselves in the other person's shoes, right? And if you're asking yourself after hearing this whole list and going, well, am I a narcissist? Just by asking—

No, by the way, no.

The sheer act of asking it says no.

Yes, it's like, oh my god, if you're sitting there listening, oh my god.

That's me, self-diagnosis, WebMD, here we come.

No, you know, because these people have no— no, you know, they're like, nope, it's not even a consideration, right? They're not even listening to this because they have no introspection. There's no introspection. Yes, where you, you and your listeners, we are all introspective people and compassionate and empathetic. They are not. So, you know, is the, is the term narcissist overused? Absolutely. Oh my gosh, yes. And it almost drives me— okay, here's my, here is my, uh, admission of a guilty pleasure. I watch The Real Housewives. And they throw around that term narcissist, and I'm just like Oh, okay. You know, you know, I could probably identify something, but it's— it, it is just so overused. And I'm worried that, um, television, social media, calling this one, that one, the other— oh, narcissist, narcissist. No, no, you know. Yeah, someone might be a jerk, someone might be overzealous in negativity, someone might be bashing someone else. That does not make them a narcissist. That makes them unkind or mean or, you know, like I said, a jerk. And I'm just so worried that this term is going to be watered down that it won't be taken seriously anymore.

Yeah, I would agree. And I'm listening to all of this and thinking about people who are entangled in some sort of abusive relationship. And with all of the tools and resources you offer, not just the NLP, you know, you've got the mindfulness meditation training, the stress management, cognitive behavioral therapy. Are you working with people one-on-one or in groups? How do you help people through these situations?

Generally, um, I do both. I do groups and one-on-one. And with the groups, it's more of, um, the free, uh, free flow of sharing and empowering each other so that they can actually see, hear, know, feel that they are not alone. Because so much of what this abuser does Is, um, makes them feel like they are the only person going through this, and if they dare to tell anyone, no one will believe them.

Right.

And we get together in a group and, um, they're hearing their story and it's like, well, wait, that happened to me, that happened to me, that— oh my gosh. So these, these slick, clever narcissists, toxic abusers, think they're so clever Well, they're repeating the same thing that the other one does.

So they all went to the same school.

They did. Nasty school. They did. And so for, you know, that kind of thing, that's just really comforting in a way for people to realize. And I do groups with men separate from women because I, you know, don't want each other, you know, any abusers to sneak in, you know, and take advantage of the other. So I do that. And then on one-on-one, I allow their healing to take place at their speed, their speed, because in the groups everybody's at a different place. And with the one-on-one, we start right Where they're at. You know, you can't push someone who's in the healing mode or recovery mode too quickly or they will fall backwards. So we just go slowly. One— if it's, you know, I teach them if it's just one minute at a time, it's one minute at a time. That's okay. That's okay.

This work is so, so close to my own heart and I became a battered women's advocate years ago, but I decided I did not want to do do this for a living. However, that training has given me the ears to listen for the signs and signals of possibly a person who's going through some portion of this journey, because it really is a life lesson to go through these things. And it's great that you are doing this kind of work because I don't want to do it. So thank you.

I didn't know that I would want to do— I mean, I was a first grade teacher, and I would see the— you know, I had many students, all these little 5, 6, 7-year-olds, and I knew which ones at home were not getting the love that they needed. And, and they, they grow up into these adults. And I know when I was a teacher, I just never thought ever, because I was in such denial, I never thought I would ever be doing something like this. Now I'm just using my teaching, um, for something else. Just like you, you've developed the ears.

Yeah.

I developed the ears by having all those little children. I developed the ears through being in it and through education. But also, you know, just, you know, it— you just get put in that and it's like, okay, Who can I pull up out of this sinking ship now? And then who— it's like that, um, starfish. Yes, you know.

Yes, I know someone who tells that story.

Okay, there you go. You, you pick, you know, someone says, why are you trying to save all these thousands of starships? Uh, no, I'm sorry, not a starfish that have, um, become beachbound. And the other person is picking them up and tossing them back into the ocean, saying, "Well, I saved this one. Well, I saved this one. Well, I say it's not a thankless job. It's not. While sometimes I am emotionally spent, it's not thankless. These people are on the cusp of a new life, and it's so exciting." It's exciting because I know what's ahead for them and it's all good and I just get so excited for them.

And that makes me speechless because it really is an act of service and so I honor, I honor that immensely and for those who are listening and thinking they want to engage with you, what is the best way? for them to do so? And do you have anything to share with the audience in general? So please, please share.

Oh sure. So my big tip, if you are just beginning your healing and you're not sure what to do, and maybe you have the tissues and you're just crying and you're stuck in bed and don't know how to get out of bed, just Close your eyes and start with some gratitude. Just start with, you know, one thing, and then tomorrow let it be 2 things, and 3, then 4. It doesn't have to be grandiose, like, I'm so grateful for the, you know, my children or my this. It just say, I am grateful to have this pillow. I'm grateful, you know, as soon— As you think of it, your brain's going to tell you, by the way. You just ask, what am I grateful for today? Your brain immediately will search because it's a computer, will search, find something to tell you. Don't, don't say I don't want that one. You take it. You, you just know it and, and feel it. Let that gratitude for whatever your brain tells you go through your body and you'll start to feel better. And you're like, not me, I, I won't. Then choose something. I was there.

Yes, that's what I'm laughing at. I'm like, okay, today's the day I get up and brush my teeth.

Got it. Oh, that's it. I would get up and I, I would have my, you know, just to move was an effort. So yes, just let, let that go through. Do something else, you know. Choose another thing to be grateful for, and then another, and then another. For me, I needed to write it down because I needed to see it, you know, and then page through and see how much I grew from the time I started my gratitude journey to when I was realizing, oh my gosh, I'm getting better. Oh my gosh, this isn't crazy. You know, you have to train your brain. Because right now, if your brain is in overwhelm, it's okay. It's in overwhelm, but just train it, you know, with some gratitude. You just start with gratitude and understand that you're in overwhelm if you've just left an abusive relationship. It's okay. And forgive. Forgive yourself. Forgive yourself because you did the very best you could, and now you're doing the very best you can. Whatever it is. If you're just sitting and thinking, and sitting and thinking is the very best you can do, that's fine. If you're just going through the motions, that's fine too. That's the very best you can. You know, you start where you're at. It sounds almost too simple, but it's effective.

Mm-hmm.

It'll retrain your brain. Start with gratitude. And forgive yourself. You did the best you could. And so my name is Michelle Willard Hoffer and I have a website. It is www.soaringminds.me. I'm on— my email is there. Feel free to email me. And I'm on Facebook. I have Soaring Minds on Facebook. If you want some meditation, I have Soaring Minds Daily Meditation Group on Facebook. I did that during May. It was every day during May, but so many people have said how much it's helped them. I also have on Facebook the ABCs of Narcissism, which has content delivered daily. Daily. You know, it's so empowering for the people.

Beautiful. I'm gonna make sure that all of that information is in the show notes so that those listening can, you know, if you're driving, don't, don't like get into an accident over this stuff.

But no, no, no, no.

Or if you're just in that place where you're like, I'm not gonna move right now, but you want to save it for later, we'll have it for you. So all 3 of those groups, as well as Your website. So thank you so much for being on the show. You're so welcome.

And if someone is ready for healing, I also have 2 books. I have The ABCs of Narcissism that acknowledges what someone's going through and Soaring Minds Workbook and Journal, which takes you— which takes you in that recovery process. That's what I wrote as a teacher. I needed to make worksheets. So they're available on Amazon and they work because I'm a teacher, I know.

You've done it, you've been there.

I did.

Yes, and that's the most important part because you can't really show somebody the way unless you've been on the road yourself, right? That's the whole point of a guide. So we're running out of time and I just wanted to say thank you again for being on the show, but the last question I always ask is, what do you feel is the most important thing to remember when searching for answers?

Always listen to your intuition. You don't have to go searching elsewhere or outside. Your mind knows what it needs. Your intuition is always with you, and your intuition will guide you 100% of the time.

I applaud. Yes, the cheers are going. Yay! Beautiful words of wisdom. Thank you again for being on the show. Michelle, this has been a real treat.

Thank you. I've enjoyed this.

Very good. And thank you, all of you who are listening in on today's show, When Doctors Say We Don't Know. This has been yet another engaging conversation. And my goal for those of you listening is that you will hear that message of hope so you too can turn your experience of pain into triumph. If you're driving or simply can't click on those links or the show notes, it's all going to be there for you. Don't worry. We're going to have it. Just hop onto the Elevate Institute Follow the podcast links for today's show. And there's more to talk about. Tune in next week for another new episode of When Doctors Say We Don't Know. This is Eva Vennari reminding you to question everything.