Natalie Jark | When Doctors Say, "We Don't Know" Podcast | Episode 308

Welcome to the show. My name is Eva Vennari, founder of the Elevate Institute, and I'll be your host for today's podcast, When Doctors Say We Don't Know. This is an inclusive conversation. So many are craving to share their stories and experiences, and today's guest is no exception. Today's honored guest is Natalie Jark. Natalie is a web design coach and consultant who works with small business owners who love to do good And give back. So Natalie, welcome to the show. I can't wait to hear your story.

Hello. Hello. Thank you for inviting me. I'm so happy to be here.

Yeah. So as a, as a web design coach, it sounds a little incongruent. Like, what is she doing here? But you have some fabulous stories and I'm like, I'm just, I want to hear them. I want to hear them all. So tell me, why did you raise your hand and say, I want to be a part of this conversation about when doctors say we don't know?

You know, mental health has been a huge part of my entire journey, everything from growing up into entrepreneurship, and it's something that I want people to feel okay talking about. I want it to be a more relevant topic, and I think mental health is just one of those things that is so important. And so, you know, when we started talking about how doctors approach it, I think it's, it's a different approach than how, you know, we all can really take mental health. And I don't know, we got to fight for our own mental health. So that's really why I'm raising my hand today and wanting to join you.

Okay, mental health it is. So, and I have to say, just been in working with corporate wellness as a practitioner, I'm helping people with their mental health quite a bit more than I was in the past. We have anxiety on the rise. We have depression 3 times. Yeah, the volume of people going through depression episodes, anxiety on the rise. So what in the mental health aspects are you most passionate about?

As far as like the areas of mental health, like balance, and I want to be able to help people realize that mental health is a real thing. And it's okay to have anxiety and depression and feeling sad, feeling lonely, and, you know, all of those things, especially as an entrepreneur. And like you were saying, in the corporate world, all of this stuff is so highly upon us. And in today's world that it's just more important to talk about. And so anxiety and depression is, you know, really where my journey has led me through, unfortunately, but I've found different ways to manage it now.

And So is it, is it a comfortable companion now, or is this, is this something that you think that you can eventually say goodbye to?

Yeah, you know, it's so funny. I talk about that a lot with family and friends, and I believe it's a companion. I don't believe that mental health and anxiety and depression are really ever going to go away for me. And that's okay. I've learned to walk the journey with them and to start feeling my emotions and to be okay with that. Emotions a lot more. It's been very hard to let the emotions come in and actually let myself feel them. But it's what has allowed me to start to be friends with them rather than enemies and want to push them out of my life.

So, I mean, let's talk about that. Because oftentimes, you know, the coherence between what we think in our mind should be the way to, you know, this, we should be without anxiety, we should be without depression. can be vastly different than what's really going on in the heart and the body, you know, being able to feel that. So let's talk a little bit more about your journey and how you've come to peace with it.

Oh man, trying— letting the emotions come in is terrifying. Um, it's terrifying because it's something that I've tried to push down and shove away for so long. And when I finally started letting them arise and letting myself feel things like physically, like in my chest, starting to feel the tightness in my chest that I might have or some heat that might be rising throughout my body. When I finally started to feel those emotions and let them out, it became more and more easier for me to feel them in everyday situations, right? It is like I had to be okay with the initial, the initial introduction, if you will, to be able to allow them in, in a more natural way on an everyday basis. Does that make sense?

I mean, having experience with both of those personally myself, yeah, yes. And yeah, and at the same time, there's a, you know, there's a big difference between a panic attack that comes on and then anxiety that comes on because you think you forgot your keys in the door, but as you've already left, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.

It's like, There are different levels of triggers, right?

Yes, exactly. So talk more about that.

Yeah. So I have realized that, you know, I can be triggered by something that will make me feel these emotions greatly, but that is when I would shove them down right away and push them away because it was an instant trigger. Now I am able to recognize some of the triggers and allow the emotions in a little bit slower and decide and take action based on those emotions. So I think that there are varying levels of triggers. And, you know, I, I have to think of my mom in this instance, with something that like an experience that she had with technically an anxiety attack where she went into a full-out blackout mode, if you will. I think they were telling me it was some kind of amnesia because she had no idea what was happening to her. But it turned out to be just a major trigger that pushed her into some kind of an anxiety attack blackout mode.

A physical manifestation, like black shut down her body.

Completely shut down her body. Completely didn't remember putting makeup on that morning, but yet she was wearing makeup. Um, couldn't remember who she was talking to on the phone at the time. She was on the phone with somebody when she was triggered, and she actually put down the phone and picked it back up, and she's like, did I call you? And oh my goodness, complete, complete confusion. And, you know, she knew where she was, but It's terrifying, right? And it is sad to think that a trigger can have that kind of emotional output on our bodies in a very physical way. And it's terrifying.

That is terrifying, not only to experience, but for those around the person, you know, like you, your loved ones, you're now you're worried about their presence and what's going on. So I'm thinking about how so many people are, oh, it's mind, body, and spirit, but the acceptance of a physical issue, like a complete total blackout, a complete total, I can't even remember what I did today at all. Not a joke. Not like, oh, I forgot what I had for lunch. It's not a big— that's— this is bigger than that. We don't embrace it very well. So, I'm curious what happened with your mom and doctors and that conversation around their input. What did they say it was?

It was very interesting. You know, they took her in right away because we didn't know at the time, is this a stroke? Is this You know, some kind of brain activity that's not functioning properly. First of all, you know, mom's terrified. We're terrified. We rushed to the hospital and after all the tests, nothing was found. Nothing. Wow.

Yeah.

And that, that I think was more terrifying than anything else to put into perspective that this was an emotional An emotion-related symptom, if you will.

Mm-hmm.

Yep. And went completely forgetful. Amnesia. They're calling it amnesia is what the doctors told us. They said it was some kind of partial amnesia. I can't exactly remember the exact word for it, but they had no other reasoning for it. There was nothing wrong with her MRIs. There was nothing wrong with Her, you know, blood pressure except for when she got in there and she was really upset, right? So they had no reasoning to give us, and that was terrifying for her as well. So we had to think back on what happened during the day. What, what was she upset about? What maybe triggered her? And maybe bring it back full circle to it could have been emotions.

Well, how did you know to look that direction?

It was hard. Um, and I think it took a little bit longer for us to realize this. It took a couple weeks after for us to come to the realization that we've figured out that it was probably some kind of anxiety attack, major anxiety attack that brought on this partial amnesia. But it took a lot of looking at, you know, obviously, we're doing touch— touching base with doctors and making sure that it wasn't going to happen again and wondering if it was going to happen again, but it never did. It never did. It never came back. But yet she was never triggered in the same way again. So it was really getting to have her start reflecting on some of the things that were bothering her and being more open about them and talking about them that we started to realize, yeah, this could have been something emotionally driven.

So were you ever able to put your finger on the trigger?

We could, yes. It was, um, it was probably some— something that had been building for a very long time. And, um, it took one— it just took one event, if you will. And I'm trying to keep my mom's privacy a little bit in this situation.

Yes, understood. Right.

But it was one singular event that concerned her, right? It gave her enough anxiety to the extent where she was talking on the phone to somebody about it. And in the middle of her telling the story to that person, she heard— she was all— she was rearoused by the anxiety that she felt in the actual event, even more so to put her into this kind of a situation.

So. So, I mean, this is an extreme response as far as I am aware, you know.

Yes.

And I'm— okay, fine. Good.

Yes, definitely an extreme response. I would not say that somebody is going to get triggered by an event or talking to a friend about it, because believe me, we need to talk to people about these things. We, you know, we— you need a tribe to be able to express yourself to. This is a rare circumstance that my mom had.

Well, yeah. And I'm just curious too, it's like, what did the person that she was speaking to Did— how do you know what to do when somebody's— what do you look for? How do you know what to do as a person who's listening to this and going, oh my God, maybe I need to be finding a way to get some help to this person right now? What should we look for?

Yeah, be a saint and just do exactly what— it was my aunt she was talking to, and she dropped the phone and luckily only lives 5 minutes away and came over and kind of walked my mom through like You know, kind of some breathing techniques, trying to get her to just settle down. Because when my mom realized that she didn't remember anything, things that she should be remembering— when, when you go and look at yourself in the mirror and you don't remember putting makeup on, but you have makeup on, that's terrifying. So, you know, I think that the best thing somebody can do is to try to calm you through breathing techniques, to try to just listen to you and help you understand what's going on, help you not to be afraid.

So I mean, that's good advice for in the moment. And then was there a, a process of going to see therapists, psychotherapy, or using drugs? Was there anything involved post the event?

Yeah, you know, I think there was a lot of self-reflection that needed to happen in my mom's In my mom's journey post that happening. I think that she did see some like therapists here and there just to kind of digest what had happened, but, um, and I think that she ended up actually taking a low-dose kind of anxiety medicine that has helped her, which, you know, it's something that I take too, and, and I think that actually helped her. be okay with taking the drug is the fact that I've been on a low dose of anxiety medicine for a very long time, and it really does help me, and therapy does help me. So I think she took some of those self-reflection steps, and she's in a much better place now, especially with the low dose of anxiety medicine that she has on.

Yeah, it's all about finding the, the what, what works. Yes. And I'm, I'm wondering too, for you, yeah, you kind of leaned on each other here in this instance. Did you notice a change in your needs, um, to help with depression and anxiety as she was going through all of this?

Oh, it, it— her experience terrified me. It's because I knew that I have had similar triggers, and to know that this was something that could possibly happen to me because we're so similar, because we have very similar emotional responses, it was so scary.

I—

It helped me put things into perspective, quite honestly, and made me realize I need to take more serious steps towards managing my emotional and mental health, because if I don't There's something much larger that could happen here. I could black out while driving. I could, you know, black out while trying to be around family or friends, or like, you just don't know when it's going to happen. So it was a, it was a wake-up call to me and her that we needed to start taking more serious prevention methods to take care of ourselves.

Well, I mean, you're bringing up really good coping mechanisms. So, so for you, What is, what does that mean? Does it mean going down the rabbit hole of what if this happens to me and then finding a preparation for the worst-case scenario?

What does that look like for you? You know, it's hard because I am very much a planner, right? I plan for worst-case scenarios. I'm a future planner. Um, I try to constantly play the defense, but with this, um, all I could do was find new ways to take care of myself. So a lot of that included exercise and movement. involving silence in my days, which included some aspect of meditation and kind of rooting a little bit more deeper into some faith-driven practices to help me discover who I was again so that I could start to feel the emotions I needed to feel so that I could accept them in the moment a lot better. And, you know, by getting moving every day, having some form of silence, And, you know, eating better all around. It all kind of plays together to help, help discover my better me, help, help be the best version of myself.

So, I mean, these, these are all— it's fun. You're mentioning things that aren't necessarily what a therapist— I don't think most therapists recommend getting physical exercise for.

Yeah, no, not very much.

No, it's more— I mean, you're already doing the low doses. So where are you? Are you following intuition? Where are you getting the advice to do these other things, to seek? Are you just trial and error? What's, what's your process?

It was a little bit of trial and error. Um, you know, I tried starting to wake up early. I tried to drink some kind of superfood shake. Um, and it was just paying attention to my body for the first time in a very long time, paying attention to how I felt when doing these things. Did I have peace the rest of the day? It was a little bit of trying to create routine for myself so that I could strategize. I'm a researcher by nature. I'm a nerdy person who loves to strategize and get the data and figure things out along the way with that data and make very decisive decisions. You can't always do that with this. I did as much as I could. I did the process of creating routines and trying to figure out what I— what worked and what didn't.

Yeah, I mean, I always say that balance is impossible. We need to seek harmony. That's kind of— Yes, right.

I love that.

Yeah, it's like, I love that. That's a myth. Balance is a myth. How's that for a snapshot? And even though I do nutritional balancing, that's like opposite to what I teach. But It really is. It's a constant ongoing endeavor. And really life doesn't stop as a result of us having a hiccup of some kind. So how has all of this experience of the self-reflection, of getting the exercise, and it's improved more than just your mental health. What else has it done for you?

It's empowered me. I just told, you know, I see a therapist as well on a weekly basis, but I just told my therapist the other day, I feel empowered by the fact that I can now feel My emotions, recognize my triggers, and take action based off of both of those things. I'm not immediately— I don't immediately jump to an anxious conclusion. I don't immediately jump to guilty feelings that I was feeling before. I can feel the emotion, recognize how I'm feeling, recognize the trigger, and be able to actually pinpoint a trigger now. and make a decision based off of that. And I think it just is a combination of me getting to know myself again and taking care of myself and just being myself 100%. So it's empowering to be able to finally say that after years and years of struggling with this. You know, it's made me a better person and hopefully a better mother.

A better mother.

Yes, a better mother. I am expecting my 1st in March. So I'm very, very excited.

Congratulations.

Thank you. That's been an interesting journey as well with, you know, the mental health side of things because it's— your hormones go crazy during this time. So I feel like the entire first trimester, I'm about halfway through, was full of self-discovery again and figuring out what works with my new normal.

Oh, you're not kidding. Yeah, the hormones are off the chart when you're pregnant. So How'd you deal with that? What, what was your strategy? More of the same, or did you have to switch it up?

Holy smokes. I had to really switch it up because between nausea and exhaustion and, um, you know, getting a cold right smack dab in the middle of it, I was out of sorts. But again, it goes back to the trial and error. How much can I do? But this time there was a lot of grace involved. I needed to give myself as much grace as possible to understand where I was at mentally, physically, and emotionally in this journey. And once I finally started giving myself a little bit more grace and actually was able to put myself on a pregnancy-safe low-dose anxiety medicine, it all started coming together again. And I'm, I'm in such a better spot.

Wow. That— so how did— I'm curious to know.

Yeah.

At that moment when you found out you're pregnant, What, what went through your mind knowing all of this about yourself?

Yeah, you know, I'd been, I'd been preparing for years for this kind of moment of, oh my gosh, I'm going to be a mother, because I have been terrified about the postpartum experience.

Yes, yes.

And so that's a big reason why I've been investing in myself and my mental health for you know, a couple of years now is to prepare myself so that I'm ready for anything that my hormones might throw at me. But, you know, my initial reaction was, okay, I need to, I need to go off all medications just as the books tell me. I need to go off all medications. I will ease off of them just in the way that I should. And I did. I eased off of my anxiety medicine for what I thought was going to be the good of the baby. And About 12 weeks in, I realized this is not good for mama or baby. And my doctor and I, you know, we've found a way to help me stay on some pregnancy-safe anxiety medicines that really, you know, won't hurt the baby and won't hurt me. It'll help me be a better mother, if anything else. That was a very hard decision to make.

Well, and I'm sure that Having the accessibility to that knowledge. I didn't know that there was anxiety medicine that was safe for baby versus others, right? Yeah, that's good. That's really good to know for anybody who's listening, who's thinking, oh, I have anxiety, or I take medications for this mental illness of whatever kind, the words take similar medication, to have options and say options. Yeah, a whole new possibility. Because being mom, well, you're welcoming life on the planet. So thank you. Yeah.

Yes. Well, and I think that it's sad because there's so much gray area. There is so much gray area around this topic because there's only so much research that have been done on these drugs. But you have to trust you and your body and what you need. I, I thought I could go without it and I couldn't. And coming to that realization was very, very difficult. for me. But knowing that there are options out there that can still support me and my mental health so that I can be the best mother I can to this new child coming into the world and knowing that it's not hurting them, gosh, that was such a relief. It was such a relief to know that I had options, like you said.

Yeah, no, I can— I mean, that would reduce anxiety in and of itself. Just knowing options. So, so now I'm curious again, with your web design coaching and consulting, what kind of people do you attract working with?

I love working with the small business people, the little guys who love getting out and doing good in the world. So I love working with the owners who want to give back to charitable organizations, who want to support their local dog rescue or want to help purify clean drinking water because it's something that they're passionate about.

They—

everybody has a cause that lingers on their heart. And, you know, a lot of people just don't know that maybe they're supporting it in the background. Maybe their business is donating some profits or products to that cause and people just don't know about it. So I want to help them get the word out via their website and fully be able to express themselves through the experiences on their website so that they can You know, make money for their cause, but then also promote their cause and make it well known that they are supporting these people because there's so many people that are innovators out there doing good.

Oh yeah. And all of that sounds like a direct reflection of how comfortable you are with your companions, the depression and anxiety. And I would imagine that your ability to listen to your emotions also reflects in your ability to listen to The entrepreneur who's struggling to get their message out there, but you can make it very clear. I mean, I'm doing a sales pitch for you, but really, I know that is a service. So thank you for that too.

Thank you. Yeah, empathy is huge. Empathy is everything in business and how you structure your business. And, you know, my, my method in web design focuses entirely on empathy and knowing your people and doing what's good for them. So Awesome. It's unique and it's fun. I love all the people that I'm meeting through this.

Well, I'm, I'm wanting to at this point ask, um, you if your audience member is listening to you and says, hey, that's me, or they have a question about resources for mental health, how can they get a hold of you and what's the best way to do that?

Absolutely. So, um, I'm currently running a Facebook group called the Doing Good Online Facebook Group, and it is essentially for small business owners who are giving back and doing good. I want to connect them so that we can support each other. And then I'll be throwing in a few tips and tricks in here and there of how to do good online through accessible and inclusive spaces online. So that is one of the best places that you can find me and my tribe and join our community. But if you also want to get to know just me and some mental health practices that I follow. You can find me on Instagram @thebettermelife. And then also on my business profile, which is just @natalejark. Those are my Instagram profiles.

Got it. And I'm going to put the Doing Good Online Facebook group and the Instagram tags in the show notes. So we'll have those handy for everybody.

Beautiful. Thank you so much. I love having this very open, candid conversation about mental health. So thank you.

And thank you for coming on and being transparent about it. It's a— it can be a very, um, challenging subject and triggering all in and of itself. You know, we remind ourselves of what we've gone through, and that can be alarming. So I appreciate that.

Yes.

And as we're, we're running out of time, my final question I always ask, what do you feel is the most important thing to remember when searching for answers?

Most important thing to remember when searching for answers is that you are the most important thing.

You are—

make yourself a priority. Think about what you need and don't ever stop fighting for what you need because the answers are out there. You just have to invest in the things that you need to find the answers you're looking for.

Well said. Thank you. You bet.

That is my motto. My, my life's motto here is make yourself a priority.

Yeah, I think I heard a couple of song titles in those statements, so I'm like, I'm off singing this song in my head. Yeah. So, all right.

That's fantastic.

Thank you so much for sharing your words of wisdom and your story, and I so appreciate that and your Facebook group. It's going to be—

Of course. I can't wait to See all the amazing people that are doing good in this world.

Well, there's so many of us and, um, there's no— we've got to wrap our arms around each other, lock arms and make a difference. That's the whole point.

Yes, I'm in.

Yes, me too. So thank you, Natalie, for being a part of the show.

Of course.

Yeah. And thank you out there for listening in on When Doctors Say We Don't Know today with Natalie Jark. This has been yet another engaging conversation. And my goal for those of you listening is to hear that message of hope so you too can turn your experience of pain into triumph. And if you're driving, don't worry, we'll have all of the show notes, everything clickable on the page. You can always go to theelevateinstitute.com, follow the podcast links, and find today's show. There's more to talk about. Tune in next week for another new episode of When Doctors Say We Don't Know. This is Eva Vennari reminding you to question everything.