Meet the Author - Jamie Weiner - Quest For Legitimacy

Sam.

Foreign.

And welcome to this Meet the Author event with Jamie Weiner. We will bring Jamie in in just a few minutes whilst we're waiting for people to arrive, it would be fantastic if you could just place in the chat where it is that you are dialing in from today, whereabouts in the world.

And we'll get a feel for where everybody is reaching us from. Just post in the comments. I see Jonathan from Los Angeles, Maria's. Toronto, LA for Kyla.

Melissa's in Chicago. Hi, Melissa.

Henry's in Portland.

Tom is eager to hear the presentation. We'll get underway as soon as we can. Just a couple more minutes for people to arrive. We've got Truckee, we've got more Chicago, San Diego, Florida. Fantastic. Utah.

I understand a lot of you guys will be having some very cold weather at the moment, so.

We'Re feeling sorry for ourselves over here at minus one, but I was speaking to somebody as minus 20 plus or something, so crazy times.

Okay, just a bit of housekeeping before we bring Jamie in for the interview. Please feel free to ask questions in the chat. We want to encourage that to happen. We may not get to the questions until the end because we do cover a bit during the Meet the Author event. But we welcome questions. So please put those in chat. We'll make sure they get looked at and asked at some point during the event.

In addition, if you haven't already bought the book, there will be a link to the Amazon site for you to be able to buy the book and it's just popped up on screen there. If you have already bought the book after we finished having our chat today, please head over to that link and leave a review because it helps other people to find the book, which is part of what we're trying to achieve is as many people being positively impacted by Jamie's work with the book. So we've had a couple of minutes now. I will bring Jamie into the room to say hi to everyone. Hi, Jamie.

Hi, everyone.

So I'm gonna kick off with our first question. Jamie and keen to understand what the inspiration behind the book was and why in particular did you feel drawn to exploring the experience of those within prominent families?

Let me put it in context. It was probably about six years ago that we started to do the research and at the time, whether I went to attend events that there were family members at or there were professionals working with family members.

When people thought about what everybody at that point called the now generation.

They talked about it with some terms that were rather derogatory, entitled youth.

The idea was that this was a concern because this was a generation that could be destroyed by money, by the businesses that were created. And in the sense of prominence, even the idea that anybody who grows up in a significant family has no chance of accomplishing what was accomplished before.

Problem was when I went in to work with any of conversations with families, it didn't register, it didn't make sense that that was truly what was going on. And in some of the families that I sat with, the quote now generation were 50 years old, some were younger, more typically what we would think of as the now generation.

But I was thrilled when and some of you know, the name ju's kind of renamed the generation to being the rising gen.

And at least that set the context for why we wanted to find out who are they really? So it was all about the question. Most of what I saw was the question was about what role are you going to have in the business? What are you going to do if you get wealth? It was in a context that was outside of the growth in individual lifestyle of people growing up.

The question we asked was what's it like growing up in the land of giants?

You got it. Nobody stopped us and asked us what were we talking about when we were used the word term giants. In fact, they could clearly identify the giants. Often they were different than what was expected.

But they could identify the giants and they could identify what the experience was.

Growing up in that world. And some of the things that they talked about was the isolation, the challenge to measure up.

It was a very different picture. We interviewed 25 rising jinn 22 times from around the globe.

And the that was the initial motivation for doing it. As the project grew and we acquired a research team from the University of Adelaide and then I began to write the book, I realized there was a second motivation and it was about me. The book turned into my quest.

To be able to learn a little bit about how I take ownership of my life. And we were thrilled as the research came to realize that.

It was applicable to anybody who grew up in a prominent family. And think about it.

Early awarenesses about growing up have nothing to do with the family business. They have nothing to do with the prominence other than that may be the environment in which you grow up. They have to do with what you see as the significance of people before you and where you find your place and all that.

And thinking back to the research and I want to pick a, a term you've used there in terms of focusing on prominent families as opposed to focusing on, say Wealthy families. And then we know prominence can come with wealth, but there's a particular focus on prominence as the work. Could you kind of help us understand why you chose prominence as opposed to wealth?

I did it for a couple of reasons. One, I really realized that the. The pool of people who have the experience.

Of growing up in the land of giants is much bigger than what talking about wealth would imply.

And it may involve people who grew up in worlds where being prominent meant that the generation before owned the corner store and everybody knew who they were.

I also chose it because.

The moment you begin to talk about wealth, you. You talk about family businesses. What you talk about as dominating the conversation is the shadow that people experience. Yes, they need to learn about it. They need to learn how to master it. But it's a separate challenge than being able to figure out, how do you grow up in the land of prominence? How do you begin to have an experience where.

You begin to take ownership of your lives? One of the examples that really.

Stuck out for me was a woman who grew up in a family that two generations before, somebody who was an immigrant.

Came.

Took his knowledge, and built a. A business around.

Chemicals for different purposes. She grew up, and she recognized in herself that that was not her passion.

What struck me, though, was when we interviewed her, A few minutes into the interview, she stopped us. She said, you sent something out to prep us for this interview, and in it you use the term achievements. So you placed it outside of the context of the people.

And what I've realized, whether I look at the giants in my life. And she had many giants in her life and a warm connection to them. She said, it's all about figuring out the world of achievements and being able to find your place in my term, to have some ownership in it.

And again, you mentioned with some of the common patterns or findings that you had, there was that sense of isolation.

What other patterns did you identify through having spoken to these 25 rising gen from around the globe?

So the pattern to really struggle with that concept of achievement is extremely powerful.

Some do very well with it, and they master it, and they find their own sense. But we also began to run into a number of people who, if looked at them from the outside, you would define them as successful.

One such woman was so successful that in the corporate world, she got offered jobs centered around her doing what she wanted to do. She had a grandfather who was her giant.

Who had built a number of significant businesses, one that was even on the Forbes list. And.

She admired that.

She took a path to try and see, separate from being part of the corporate world, whether she could be a part of one of the family businesses that was an offshoot.

She did great things for the business, made it very successful. She couldn't navigate the relationships with the family member involved. And so eventually she had a breaking moment and had to leave. And that moment caused her to begin to reevaluate who she was, to even change her perspective on relationships and begin to have a very warm, intimate relationship with a man and get married, become a step parent. And it transitioned her whole life as she began to take ownership.

Thank you. And within the book, you've beautifully captured the stories of those that you spoke with. And unfortunately, we don't have time to go through every story. We've had a couple. But is there an another story that particularly stands out for you from the experience of the interviews?

Wouldn't it be fun to be able to tell every story? Because each time we got on Zoom, and thank goodness for Zoom, it was early in Zoom was not something we did every day. And we entered into an experience talking to somebody. It was like a window into a world because everybody we talked to was extremely eager to tell their story. I think they wanted to help others, not experience some of the pain that they had. One such story, and maybe it's the one that probably touches most of the elements talked about in the book is the story of a gentleman named Rishi.

When we asked Rishi the initial question, what's it like growing up in the land of giants?

He kind of made us think because his opening story was about his parents marriage and wedding. He wasn't born yet, he wasn't there.

So I understood, stood that what he was telling us was about a projection of some of the struggles he has.

He had an Indian father.

Who had come to this country.

Learned.

By working in motels, but had bought a bunch of business businesses and created a bunch of businesses and become very successful.

Almost at the same time that he had grown up.

Rishi clearly did not fit the picture of being entitled.

In college. Not only was he doing advanced studies, but he had two businesses that he was operating at the same time.

One day his dad came to him and said, I need your help, Rishi.

In Indian culture.

It'S important to honor the role of your of the patriarch of your father.

So he listened. And dad asked him, could Rishi help him create a separate business that would run all the back end of the businesses that his father created? And Rishi agreed. Not only did he agree, but he spent a good number of years is that what was what he was doing with his career now? He had knowledge about business that his dad didn't have. But at one point it became time for Rishi to think about his own life, his own path. And he thought about, do I want to go to acting? What do I want to do? Because he had some acting experience and he decided to go off and get an mba. Just as he was about to leave, his dad bought a business. And Rishi had a sense from the very beginning that this business was probably was problematic. But he was going to leave anyways. He studied abroad.

And when he finished with his mba, it was time to set a sail figure where he was going to go.

But the issues that were there in that business that his dad bought have begun to erupt. Some were legal. It was really a struggle now for the family. And Rishi returned to spend the year working with his dad, trying to help sort it out. It was a difficult year, both in terms of the problems of the business, but also the problems of the relationship.

So he was so glad when it came time to take a break.

Rishi loves soccer, absolutely loved it. So his idea of getting away was to go to the World cup, which he did.

Came back, landed in Florida on his way home.

And there was an email from his dad in very polite language, basically firing him.

Can you imagine being fired by your parent? How disruptive. That was a huge breaking moment. We found breaking moments in everybody we interviewed, but this one was at the dramatic end of what, what you would experience.

Rishi was torn about what to do, but he also began to stop talking to his parents. It was a real break. He talked to his siblings, he was aware of what was going on. But in the meantime he had to re evaluate his life.

When he finally, after a couple years, landed a position at a university.

He decided to take a stop. A stop before taking on the next phase of his life. I think it was courageous. He went home to the 10,000 square foot house that his dad had built.

And he took the risk to knock on the door.

His father opened. His mom was there and his dad, in great emotion, said, I'm so glad you did this. He recognized the courage. His dad even said, given how I was brought up, I never would have been able to do this.

That moment changed the nature of the relationship between the two of them.

The same things continue to come up, but he was seen in a different light because he had taken a step of ownership in his, in his life.

It was a heroic moment for both of them.

Rishi is a great example. He's a great example because he has breaking moments. He went through a period of feeling betwixt and between a period of liminality, pretty severe one. He rediscovered himself. He made use of the breaking moments and he began to go through. To experience taking ownership and going through the four phases of the quest.

You mentioned there. The four phases of the quest. On the. Again you articulate in the book, can you give an overview of what those four phases are? Just so those that are listening can understand maybe perhaps on their own lives, the. The phase that they may be in in their own quest for legitimacy?

Yeah. I really want to encourage people to think back in your own life about. About what. What things were. Breaking moments for you could be small ones.

The cute one is, can you imagine growing up in a family that's into diamonds? Several generations back.

And dad comes home, teaches you to count, but he teaches you to count using diamonds.

He got it. Guess what happens when you go off to school? Oops. Not everybody in the world learns how to count using diamonds. It's a period of awareness.

Do you have periods of awareness? You grow up a little bit more and all of a sudden you're exposed to being out in the world, a little bit more out in the world, depending on the culture you're in. And you begin to have some experiences that you go, this is a little bit different, what the world is in my own. And you begin to feel betwixt and between a tug of war between different worlds as you begin to sort out who am I in all of this.

At some point you get hit a point where you've internalized what it is that your family is all about and you go off. And if you have a period of exploration.

I've devoted a whole chapter in the book to exploration.

We did a conference in Oxford last year, and one of the women talked about the families she worked with.

A huge group said one of the things they haven't left room for is for exploration.

So valuable, so meaningful. And it's a critical step towards taking ownership of one's life.

Rishi is a good example of somebody who took ownership, but he's also taught us that you can take ownership and stuff can happen in your life and you're begin again thrown back into the four phases of the quest, into new awarenesses, a new sense of a tug of war, further exploration until you sort it out, maybe with a little bit more courage, a little bit more strength, and take another step in having ownership in your life.

Thank you. And we've obviously heard a couple of the stories from the book. You've highlighted some of the key findings. What else are you hoping that those read the book are able to learn from those stories and from the findings from the research?

You know, I had this fantasy that somebody could read a book and it just could change their lives.

Can you imagine if that could happen? If you could go to a movie and go, that's the movie. That's the movie that changed my life. Even if you could attend an experience in Oxford, England, last year and walk away and say, God, I'm completely different human being.

What I did hope was that people would read the book and recognize that they're on a quest.

That.

They'Re going through the phases of.

Four phases of the quest.

And that it's an. Can be an intentional process to figure out how to take ownership of your life. What we discovered is when you do that, when you get to a point that you feel that you can take ownership of your life.

There'S a flexibility that arises.

Chronically. Almost everybody we interview, I think, in fact, everybody we interviewed wanted to come back and have a connection and a role within the families they were brought up in. It was important. They never lost sight, but they needed the room and space to do that. In some ways, they needed a rite of passage, a way to make the transition between the world they were brought up in and.

Being able to find a space to exist within the family business.

And turning the table a little bit more on. On you now, what have you learned from the experience?

Okay, you got me, Russ.

Ironically, as I wrote the book, went through the whole process, the interviews, looked at what the research said. All of a sudden, I realized that the process was also about me. It was about my own.

Using the knowledge that I was gaining.

To take a look at who I am.

I grew up in a family where my father was very prominent. He was a rabbi. But he took a unique role in the community.

He probably had.

All the attributes that go along with personal wealth without the financial money that goes along with it. When we talk about wealth.

As you grow up, you begin to start to see. And I began to start to see.

I saw him differently. I began to understand that he was an immigrant who had to leave. Leave Germany because of Hitler.

I learned that my mother, too, who, if I called her survivor, would have snapped at me. I'm not a survivor, But I learned that.

They, too, had a human experience require them to take a quest. In their case, a very physical quest. For me, writing the book, figuring out how do you write a story? How do you touch somebody? How do you get somebody to say, I see myself in this?

Meant that I had to take a look at who I am. Do I have some wisdom to offer? Is there something valuable that I bring to the world? Can I have an impact?

Because in the end, that's really what it's all about.

I began to see myself in the writing as someone who didn't exist under the shadow of my dad, but somebody with my own set of gifts to bring. If everybody could leave this call would leave feeling, oh, my God, I have gifts. And I know a lot of the people on this call. It's so wonderful to have you here. I know a lot of your gifts because we've talked and shared.

Where it's become for me is the decision to spend my life, this point, this point on, with a passion to create experiences that help people take ownership of their lives.

To encourage.

People to make a difference.

It all came back to me in a conversation that happened yesterday. Was somebody who grew up in extremely prominent family, both politically prominent but also financially prominent.

And.

She too talked about her own experience in an Asian culture to find her place as a woman. And I realized how deep.

What the conversations were, were all about and how much room there was for me to do something that would make a difference. We talked a little bit about interviewing women because I think the path is slightly different for them.

Maybe very different.

And that's really been the transformation that's happened for me in the writing of the book and in creating beginning to create experiences to help other people because we can rise at any age to take ownership of their lives.

Fantastic. Thank you for sharing that. And I just want to remind everyone that is on the webinar call today, if you haven't done so already, you can head over to Amazon to buy the book. If you're intrigued by what Jamie is sharing with us today, there's obviously much, much more in the book itself. The other thing we want to encourage is any questions, anything that's springing to mind or anything that you want some clarity on. Please put in the comments and we will get to the questions as we progress through.

Also at the end, I'm going to share a link for those that are interested in understanding where they are on their own quest. There is a link that takes you to our site and allows you to take a quiz. It takes five minutes or so, just a quick quiz to understand where you are on the quest. So I'll point to that in the comments. A little bit later. 10:34am Jamie, back to you. In terms of. In terms of the reaction that you've had from people who have read the book. You've obviously been fortunate enough to meet people that have read it. You've had people get in touch with you that have read the book. What have they been telling you in terms of the impact that it's had on their lives?

You've kind of thrown me back, Russ, into a moment when you and I were speaking to a group organized by a bank in England. And.

I was thrown because.

The comments were approaching us, me, as if we'd kind of broke into a different space that nobody had quite explored before. What always excites me is when somebody comes up to me and says, I see myself in what you've written.

What better compliment could there be.

In a world where people struggle to feel that somebody else gets them, to have people to say, you did it, you touched me.

The second thing that's really stood out is.

People then talk about their own experiences, their own struggles, their own breaking moments. They begin to question where they are on the quest.

Some of the people we interview have turned into ongoing relationships.

It's really clear that the quest is.

Something that motivates people.

And if the book, if the things we become involved in can begin to cause change.

We'Ve also understood that.

It'S not just about the rising jinn, it's also about.

The giants.

Often the giants don't realize they're giants.

So we've had some people have the recognition that the impact they have on the next generation is much bigger than it, it appears, and.

Begin to think, how do I have the conversation? How do I share.

That my life has also been a quest.

And then at some point I had to sort out who I am. Now, sometimes founders do it in a much more tangible way than discovering their emotions.

But whether it's been people I know in Australia, whether it's people in Asia.

I'm always amazed that people say, this is a book that needs to be on everybody's bookshelves. I want it on their bookshelves. But they also want them to use it as a springboard for doing things in their life.

We've had many conversations around the contrast or the perhaps the differentiation between what you call legitimacy in the book versus what we might consider success from a kind of societal, individual perspective. Can you speak a little bit more to. To that in terms of are we talking about success or legitimacy? And if not, how do they differ?

Again, thinking back, even to the call That I was on yesterday.

It turned at some point to the woman I was talking with.

Thinking about some extremely successful people she knew.

In her case, she talked about how a lot of them were using medication.

Psychiatric medication, because they were anxious, depressed, struggling.

So the whole question of what is success? Was kind of at the surface when we began to think about how do we. How do we label the book? What term do we use?

Legitimacy was the one that popped in our heads, ironically. Legitimacy, by definition is something you give to somebody else.

You define somebody else as the legitimate leader.

We use the term legitimacy as an eternal feeling.

As a.

I look at myself, I look around at what I've done, and I recognize that.

My purpose is expressed in what I'm doing with my life. Now. That happens every. In lots of ways. It may be how we treat ourselves and relationships with other people, with family.

How we navigate that. But it also may be what do we create so that we end up feeling giants in our own right?

Remind myself to unmute. Had a couple of questions in which I should know this by now.

That I think would be good to put forward now. So if we start with Henry. Henry's question is the four phases versus Campbell's 12 stages of the Hero's journey. Compare. And again, this is something that we've discussed and come across before. So perhaps share your thoughts on the similarities and differences between your work and Campbell's work on the hero's journey.

I'm glad you pulled this question.

My four phases with an attempt to, in a simple language as possible.

Offer something that.

Everybody could work with, could make sense.

The hero's journey.

Has a lot of similarities to what I'm talking about.

Campbell puts it in a very spiritual reference and space.

I'm not trying to replace his book, his work, his thoughts about the hero's journey.

But I am trying to put it in context that really, in the end, focuses on impact.

And I think it's probably a longer conversation than that. Henry. But let's. That's kind of the simple answer that I have.

So the next question I want to bring to the fore is from Tom here, where he asks when we speak, or when the 25 rising gen that we've spoken to speak of what they're accomplishing in life, how do they frame theirs in terms of success or legitimacy? I guess in practical ways or in altruistic, make a difference way? What societal impacts are they making, big picture or small and focused?

I think it varied.

A lot of the people that we interviewed turned out to be late 30s 40s.

So in, in a very practical sense, Tom, they were still figuring out what do I do for living?

What about family? What about alternative relationships to family?

What are my connections?

But a lot of them did a number of things when they tried to find a place inside their family where they felt they could be involved in activities that made a difference.

One of the people we interviewed, for example, they came for the next generation.

Kind of the go to person.

A number got involved in.

Trying to create different ways to treat employees.

Probably a very good example would be one of the businesses we interviewed. Couple hundred year old business.

Only had six people out of thousands who had some relationship to the family, work within the family.

And within the business.

He changed the whole nature of how they approached their impact on the environment.

He set up a way that family members who weren't in the business could come and get some, some funding, but to help in a cause, but only if they also got involved in the cause.

So.

There'S probably a lot more big picture stuff that I hope will evolve.

But I do think people have started to figure out ways to try and make a difference.

I hope that answers the question.

And we've spoken about the impact that you're hoping, those that read the book that you're hoping to have on those individuals. I think from some of the names we see in the audience, there are a number of advisors as well who may well be on their own quest for legitimacy, but may also be working with those that are on their quest for legitimacy. How are you hoping that they use the book or that they are able to utilize the findings?

Yeah, I think the hope, the dream I have for the advisor community.

Is for them to recognize how important it is in their own form to ask the question of what is it like to grow up in the land of giants.

It's difficult enough to ask about the impact of inheritance, all of the tangible things that happen.

But I think getting to that got you moments.

That moment where people go, okay, this person understands me is a challenge that advisors weren't trained to do.

That.

In being able to sort that out, to understand all of the different potential dynamics that exist in business. Owning families.

And to be there for each person as an individual is a real challenge.

And I think the advisor community, since I started doing this.

Has made a real change.

They've recognized that it's not all about the money.

And they've begun to figure out how do we form relationships.

How do we make a connection that is impactful.

I think Covid had a part. I think Covid was a breaking moment we all experienced and understand.

And I think it started to help people focus differently in terms of.

How they approach their advisors and how their advisors approach them.

Thank you. And just want to take this opportunity again to remind people if there are any questions that are springing to mind and you want us to answer those today or attempt to answer those today, please put that in the comments. If you want to follow up with us separately to have a conversation about anything that we've spoken about again, we would be very keen to have those conversations comment there from Peter around. Advisors have a tough time listening to the answers to their questions and their follow up isn't good thoughts on that. Jamie.

First of all Peter, it's great to make contact with you again.

I know that the challenge about getting advisors to listen is something you paid attention to for most of your life.

I think in order for follow up to become useful, advisors have to recognize the gems that they're being given. When families talk about what's important to them, even when they talk about what's important to them as they transfer businesses, as they begin to deal with estate plans.

I think if advisors understood that often the people who get handed businesses or inherit wealth experience it as.

Struggle a problem rather than as a God, this is the best thing that ever happened to me. And that they have a need to begin to sort out how do they make good use of it.

I know advisors sometimes project from their own experience.

And give advice. I know one who said, oh God, if I inherited what you inherited, I'd become a teacher. Well.

That was so far off from the experience of the person who the advisor was talking to. I think there are ways to do training, Peter, and.

About how to listen and what listening means beyond being able to say I hear you said and and turn it into action steps.

But I also want to understand that many advisors are under a lot of pressure just to bring in clients to do the business of what they do. So I think the conversation needs to happen in a very empathic way.

Again, thank you to everyone who is sharing their comments in the chat. Please keep questions coming. Jamie, in terms of your plans, what do you have planned next? You spoke about an experience in Oxford last year. What, what's coming up next that people should be aware of.

So after Oxford we went and presented in, in Denver and then we had a meeting and talked about what's the next step and the idea of Costa Rica came up.

I had stepped out of the meeting for a while so I wasn't even really clear why Costa Rica?

It's warm, it's gorgeous, I get all of that.

But.

Didn'T make much sense. And then recently and we've begun to have a conversation with a place that does retreats where you land in the airport in I think San Jose and get on a private jet and fly to a world that's difficult to get to, set up with many other kinds of things that can be done to open up the discussion. We're in the midst of setting a date to do that. We're also off to Australia to do some presenting in Australia with groups, hopefully to do it in other places. We have workshops one day, workshops. And I'm going to let you, Russ, talk about the next thing that we plan to do online.

Thank you. So for those that have found the insights that we've shared on today's call particularly interesting, particularly relevant to your own life, we are offering a follow up webinar that we will email to you the dates and details for where we do a little bit of a deeper dive on the four phases of the quest and in particular where you may be on your own quest and what that means for you and what steps you can take. I'll put in the comments now and obviously highlight to everybody.

Head over to questfulegitimacy.com and on there there's a space to put your email address if you want to be informed of the follow up webinar and also a link to a quiz which we're hoping people will find both fun and informative. Again, we just asked for your email address there to send the result to. Doesn't take too long to complete and gives you an idea of where you are on your own quest for legitimacy. So if you're intrigued and you want to find out more about that, please head over to questforlegitimacy.com I'm conscious that we have a couple of minutes left and there's a couple of comments and questions that I want to just highlight. So Maria has highlighted here, very insightful, speaks to many of the families that she sees and it's important we don't project. I think that's a key lesson. Henry's asked a second question around the book, opening up a new and larger audience. Again, Jamie, perhaps a couple of moments on that.

You know, Henry, it's a great question.

You and I have talked.

Privately. It takes work to open up a new audience.

That's part of why we're doing this webinar and I think it, it is opening up a new and larger audience. I've had comments from people in different parts of the globe indicating that they've read the book.

That it touched them.

I've had people comment that they like to help use the insights in the book and any research and thought that comes later to open up in different communities. So I'm excited about the prospect.

And I appreciate the question. Henry.

And in my final shameless plug, if you're looking to support the book reaching a larger audience, please again head over to the Amazon link that is currently on your screen if you haven't bought the book. Obviously slightly biased, but I highly recommend it. The feedback that Jamie has received has been fantastic for those that have read it, whether that's somebody who's grown up in the shadow of a giant or somebody who is working with families where there are giants present. So please head over to there. Please share.

Any review with on that same Amazon link you can leave a five star review review that helps other people find the book and for for us to have impact in that way.

Conscious of our time. We're just about at the top of the hour so I want to be very mindful of the time you've committed for joining us on this webinar today. So thank you very much for doing that. We'd be delighted to hear from you with any follow up questions that you may have. And finally, last reminder for that quiz to find out where you are on the quest. You can find that at that link there. Last thing for me to do at this stage is to thank Jamie very much for sharing his insights, his knowledge, his wisdom, his compassion through the questions that we've sought to answer today. And thank you Jamie for joining us and and putting yourself through the interview.

Thank everybody for coming.

See a lot of friends and a lot of new potential friends. So thank you very much.

In answer to that question, Peter, I joined Jamie throughout the research so I was present for all of the interviews. Jamie and I deliver the program together in Oxford and continue to deliver programs together.

And workshops, webinars, etc. You can probably tell from my accent that I'm not based in the US but based in the uk. And that again is the beauty of this project is the global nature of it.

And that concludes our webinar. Thank you very much everyone.

Thank you everybody. Thanks for joining.