Pillar x Interact: Using quizzes in your Link-In-Bio for Lead Generation and Sales

Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Quiz Marketing Podcast. My name is Josh Hanem. I'm the co-founder and CEO at Interact Quiz Software. Today we have a really fun episode because I am joined by Faisal Younus, who's a co-founder and CEO at Pillar. Pillar is an awesome link in bio tool, and we just did an integration with them, which we're super excited about, where the quiz actually lives inside of the link in bio experience. So instead of having to click out of it and go take the quiz, you can take it right inside of your Pillar instance in your LinkedIn bio. So we're super stoked about it. Thanks for being here, Faisal. It's going to be fun to talk about this.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Josh.

Yeah, of course. So before we kind of go into any sort of technical details of that integration, I just want to talk about from your perspective. What's the value of a creator implementing a quiz into their link in bio experience or just into their marketing funnel in general? And how have you seen creators be successful with that?

Yeah, no, I think it's a great question. So yeah, excited to kind of kick off with the episode, but high level, I think, you know, as the market gets saturated with more and more content and as individuals start to kind of establish niches for themselves and kind of understand like, where am I actually going with this journey? I think it's important to qualify our audience and audience qualification can take a number of different steps. Obviously, there's the very basic but also very lucrative qualification, which is, hey, I built this audience up, now I want to monetize, right? But there's this kind of like long tail kind of audience share, let's call it, of people who Maybe they aren't super fans yet. They like watching your content, right? But, you know, there's a little bit more nurturing that needs to happen. And so I think quizzes are primed for capturing that share and nurturing that audience, you know, kind of, you know, kind of akin to how, you know, individuals, you know, offer lead magnets and then kind of, you know, nurture that audience over time. Or maybe someone's following, you know, this podcast or something like that. I think quizzes are a really good way to kind of drill down divide your audience into various segments and call it levels of viewership, and then kind of go from there and have more bespoke experiences. So you're not kind of blasting everyone. Maybe they're not ready to purchase something from you just yet, but maybe they are ready to kind of give up some information about themselves in exchange for some value or some content. So I think high-level quizzes are really important for distinguishing who from your audience kind of falls into what category. Where do I see this going is, obviously, there's a massive TikTok ban that's being talked about. And I mean, beyond being talked about, it might even happen next week. And so, I think all the people on TikTok that have built up large audiences, they will, assuming it's not bought or something like that and there's not an easy migration or whatever, which it's a lot harder than kind of one would think. Quizzes are a great way to kind of capture that audience and kind of migrate them to other areas. If you capture their email, their name, name, all this data. And so I'd argue that the next 7 days specifically are probably some of the most important times to kind of actually take advantage of quizzes. And so, you know, I kind of, you know, caveat that slightly. You know, obviously this is something that's going to happen very soon and we'll see what happens with the government and everything. But, you know, one should always be kind of qualifying their audience and kind of understanding them. And so I think that underscores why quizzes are important and kind of why they'll continue to be important. Anyways, that's just some quick thoughts on quizzes.

Yeah, I like that a lot. And we might just rush to get this episode out. So sorry, Mia. Mia's our editor. So yeah, I like what you were saying though. It's almost like I see it almost as like, okay, you have this audience and over time that audience gets to know you. Some percentage of that audience is always warming up to the point where they might want to go to the next level, but they're not ready to like buy, like dollars is not on the table yet, but maybe information is on the table, i.e., their email address. And so you can use the quiz almost scrape off that layer in real time as you're going instead of it just being like, oh, I have this giant audience on Instagram or on TikTok. I don't really know who's ready to buy or who's not until I prompt them to make a purchase. And then some people make a purchase. But that middle majority, I would almost say it's like probably the majority of your audience knows you more than just surface level if they've been following you for some period of time. But if you're just on socials, yeah, you got the bans, you got the algorithm changes, you got, you know, maybe your audience members doing like No Social January or whatever people do these days. You, you have so many things you're susceptible to, but email is a more reliable asset. It's also something that you own. So like, I mean, nobody can ban email. Like, that would be crazy.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, right? Like these, any content creator out there, and obviously quizzes are for a number of different folks. Right. But, and we can, we can dive in, in this episode and talk about various niches and kind of go super deep as to how quizzes help them. But we're talking about media businesses, right? At a certain point when it becomes more than a hobby and you're kind of investing in business, you become a media business. And obviously, you and I are SaaS founders, right? We build software businesses, right? We have people that come to our landing pages and maybe they sign up for a free trial on Pillar or Interact. Maybe they're not ready to buy just yet, right? But we've kind of captured oftentimes, you know, name, email, kind of phone number. And so we can do these kind of nurturing campaigns and kind of keep them up to date and be like, hey, look, "You used to kind of be on this platform and we've added these features here and these features there. Let me know if this interests you and whatnot." And they're kind of part of this community experience. And each of those incremental kind of, we'll call them, I don't know, leads, right? It adds value, right? Because that's kind of your distribution list. I mean, if you think about, you know, at the highest end of the scale, the biggest extreme, like let's talk about like MrBeast, for example, right? You know, the value of MrBeast's business is obviously his audience, right? And the number of challenges and things that he incorporates on an interactive basis or products that he sells to this audience helps him to go from, hey, look, I've got, let's say, just putting out easy numbers out there, 100 million followers or 250 million followers or whatever it is, right? And over time, with the launch of Feastables or with the launch of this challenge or with the launch of this course or whatever it is, I'm getting more and more percentage, right, of folks that have kind of gone the next level and been like, hey, I'm going to buy Feastables. And so now, I've captured email, I've captured phone number, I've captured kind of buying habits or buying behaviors, right? And over time, the more kind of alpha that you can kind of gather from the audience that hasn't done that, I think that that just increases your value as a media business. And so, it's one of the easiest things I think you can do to increase the value of your creator business, right? Whether it's offering a lead magnet, or in this case, the lead magnet is the quiz. So, I just wanted to kind of caveat and say, for the people that are serious about actually kind of making real money in 2025, and ultimately, this industry is, sure, it's been around for 10, 15 years, 20 years maybe with the rise of YouTube, it's still in early stages, right? We still haven't seen what the mature kind of content creator exits look like for the most part. I think we'll see a lot of that in the next 5 years. And I think, you know, audience lists are going to be part and parcel to, you know, how are we going to value this? So just something I wanted to flag real quick for us before we kind of go deep.

Yeah. Yeah. And I have a couple of follow-up thoughts on that because that just brings up some interesting thoughts on my end. I like that you're framing creators as media businesses because I totally agree with that. And the value goes up a lot if you have your own email list, like it's your own asset. I mean, on the low end, we have customers that we've worked with where they were just getting started when we started working with them. They built up an email list using a quiz and that allowed them to do things like get book deals, which was like their dream as a creator. And then on the high end, you have your like really high volume creators where they're bringing in so many people to an email list that increases not only sponsorship revenue, but the enterprise value, speaking of like potential exits in the future. And then I'm almost chuckling to myself because everything just feels so cyclical because when we got into this game, it was like the very early days of newsletters. And I remember hearing about newsletters. The numbers back then were wild. It was like a newsletter with 40 million subscribers were selling for $50 million. And it's like, now it's probably not worth that much. But that was the huge thing. The asset was the email list. And I feel like we've kind of gone full circle where it's like, yeah, everyone just wanted to know about Instagram or TikTok followers. And now we've kind of come all the way back around to like, yeah, actually that email list thing. Like, that's like the more valuable asset in this business. So I think that's a good point. That's a good point. I think what could be helpful for us to kind of go back and forth on is just talking through different quiz funnels that we've seen specifically integrating with Pillar, but we've kind of set the stage for that where it's like, gosh, the real value here is that you can leave people in your Pillar experience and not make them go somewhere else. So then like if they want to click back and see a different product, or what, you know, they change their mind and they don't want to take the quiz right now, you haven't lost that, that, that session, which is awesome. And I'm glad that we've done that. Um, but in terms of like funnels that we've seen that are really successful, maybe you can start and I can parlay off of there of like, let's just talk through some examples. Cause I think in my experience talking to customers, that's usually what jogs people's minds is like, oh, that person did this. I'm not in the same industry, but I could do something similar. So yeah, start us off. Cool.

Yeah. So funnels are an extremely important facet of, you know, businesses in general at Pillar. And I've seen, you know, I think some of the easiest ways to kind of draw a mental map of like how these funnels operate at scale or even just how they operate in general, right? For creators that are like using quizzes or using funnels is kind of like looking at it from an industry perspective. So if we think about industries that, you know, this makes a ton of sense for, I mean, Some that come straight up to mind are real estate, right? Real estate, like how can I qualify the buyer? Is this a buyer or is this a renter? Are they looking for single-family? Are they looking to invest? Are they looking to live? What's their budget? Where do they want to live? Where would they be okay with living? These are all questions that I think lend themselves to quizzes. And if you think about the home buying journey, right, someone's not going to buy unless they're a professional kind of a real estate investor, right? And again, this is where the qualification comes into play as well, right? If you're going to buy a home for yourself, you're probably not going to be looking to buy a home super, super often. We'll call for like a 5, 10-year period, right? And so it's a long buyer's journey. And so the quiz is important because it gives someone an opportunity to kind of assess and be like, hey, look, you know, you're at this stage, right? You want to buy a house, I will say, in 6 months to a year. How can I nurture that versus someone who signs up and they qualify themselves as a, hey, I've been looking for a while. I haven't really had much experience. I'm looking for that perfect fit. And so, right off the bat, giving you an opportunity to actually prioritize. We use, obviously, technology prioritization at our company from a product management perspective. And I'm obviously assuming you guys do the same thing. So, we've got P0s, P1s, P2s. P0 is stop everything and jump on this right now for the engineering design, business, whatever team, right? And P2s are like, "Oh, you know what? This is an important thing. I'm glad this came up, right?" But the shade of the door relative to the rest of the house, maybe it's like A smidge too light or a smidge too dark. That's not like a, "Hey, the kitchen is on fire right now." And so, this at least I think helps real estate individuals be able to understand who's a serious buyer and who isn't a serious buyer. And if you think about it, let's think about industries where this is important. And I always love to think on the extreme. So, think about what is the most blatantly obvious industry? So, if we think about used car dealerships, Used car dealers, they always have to deal with, is the customer serious or is the customer not serious? Are they window shopping or they're not window shopping? And to a certain extent, having quizzes, having this kind of online social media funnel saves these people time because they don't even have to talk to the individual, they immediately qualify. So I think real estate's a good industry for this. And real estate's a good industry because a lot of these people, they actually become content creators themselves. What they do is, They'll basically tour houses, they'll make that content. When they need to get local buyers that might be interested in homeownership, they run ads, right, in that local demographic. And if they've got a funnel, it's an extremely efficient way for them to actually like, you know, map out the market, or, you know, I'm selling this house in Chicago, Illinois, in this neighborhood specifically, right? Boom, I just got viewership from this many people. And I put these people to the funnel, you know, with the power of ads and something you can get maybe like 1,000 kind of like impressions, right, on or high-quality impressions, right? People who actually see the quiz. Let's say you have, let's say, a 10-20% conversion rate. That's 200 people that you've now funneled in. And if 10 of those people are like, hey, like, we're like super close to buying, like, that just saved you a ton of time. So, I think real estate is a good example. There's a bunch more we can dive into. Do you have any experience with real estate, I guess, as a funnel for Interact?

Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, literally the same thing. So, this is like a fun conversation because I'm just like, we're seeing it from different sides. But it's the same exact implementation, exactly what you were talking about. You're qualifying the lead. I think the thing that I would add to that and what I've seen from the real estate side is framing the quiz funnel in terms of what the buyer wants. And usually that looks like something along the lines of what neighborhood is the right fit for you, or what type of house is the right fit for you. And then you'll tie that back to a neighborhood. And so framing this funnel in terms of what does the buyer want, what does the ideal customer want, and you are helping them get what they want, but you're also getting what you want because part of that funnel is gonna be like you said, asking them, are you ready to go right now? Or are you just kind of casually browsing? Because like you said, that is Invaluable. If you can only talk to the people that are ready to go right now, not only do you save yourself a ton of time that you can put back into marketing and growth, but also you're not burning out because like burnout is almost always a function of doing the wrong activities. And so qualification is what you want and getting people into the right bucket is what you want. But then framing it in terms of what the person taking the quiz or going through that funnel, what they want, that's like the hook. That's what gets them in the door.

Yeah. And really quickly, I want to add burnout actually. So there's a huge problem with creator burnout, and that's actually part of the reason why our company started. And presumably one of the reasons why Interact exists as well, right, is this idea that it's already so hard to kind of get, we'll call it a successful niche, right, in social media and become successful and grow and get followers and viewership. Them, all that stuff. Doing the business stuff on the side when that's not necessarily something you enjoy doing is oftentimes one of the biggest reasons why there's burnout and people are like, "This is impossible." And so, our North Star is oftentimes like, "How can we make it easier to make a dollar on the internet?" And for Interact as well, it seems to be one of the axioms you guys operate by. But I wanted to flag that burnout actually, we always talk about burnout in professional industries, people getting burned out from their 9 to 5, sometimes content creators getting burned out, One thing that I think is important to kind of qualify, no pun intended here, as to why quizzes can actually help you out more than you think is there's also the follower burnout. Follower burnout is like communication cadence, right? Sure, I signed up for this email list or sure, I joined this community, but I'm getting emails all the time and these emails have nothing to do with what I want. So I'm gonna unsubscribe. Getting that person to resubscribe or to rejoin your community is oftentimes 10 times harder than getting them to subscribe in the first place. But if you got them to subscribe in the first place and you qualified them with a quiz that was able to tell you, hey, look, this person's not really in this kind of category, so we're going to target them with this kind of type of communication with this cadence, right? Because every time you talk to them, you've got to be giving them something like 10x value for them to be like, all right, now I understand why I'm subscribed to this, why I'm doing this. And so I think one of the biggest reasons why I think for industries like these, right, that's super important is just actually qualifying the buyer or qualifying the follower and making sure they don't burn out from excessive communication or the wrong communication or even messaging them at a time when it just doesn't really make sense.

Yeah, I think HubSpot published a stat that 86% of consumers expect communication to be personalized. And the reality I don't know if you have any sort of ballpark on this, but I think the reality is like less than 20% actually do that in terms of the creator businesses. Hardly ever is there any sort of personalization at all. It's like join my list and I send the same thing to everybody. And maybe that's helpful for like part of your audience, but if the majority of your audience actually finds your content to be not helpful, then you're doing more harm than good. And then you're doing all this work to create the content. It's not that it's not good, it's just that it's not what people want. Like, they never had a chance to tell you their preferences, which is a huge thing with the quizzes. Like, uh, another example I'll pull out is from Gretchen Rubin. She's a 5-time, I believe, New York Times bestselling author. Really, really great content. It's all about happiness, like how do you make your life more happy and enjoyable. And one of the quizzes that she launched January of last year actually helps you find the right habit you should adopt for happiness. But that quiz, it doesn't just tell you like, oh, you should exercise more. It says like, oh, you should exercise more with your friends, or you should exercise more on your own because that's your meditative time, or you should exercise more hiking outside. There's like 5 versions of exercise more. And then there's other categories and each of those has like 5 versions. And then she's got all this content for each of those, but there's like, I don't know, there's north of 30, I think, different ones. And so now when she's sending out this content, that's like, hey, here's some like great tips to like increase your outdoor exercise this year. She knows that you want to learn more about how you can increase your outdoor exercise because that was your goal for the year. If you know what they want, like what your audience wants, now you're working together instead of you trying to convince them you should do this, you should do that. I recommend this, I recommend that. Nobody cares what you recommend. Not even if you're like the biggest creator. They want to know what's going to work for them because everybody thinks about themselves. I believe it's somewhere between like 60 and 80% of what we think about and do in a day is about ourselves and getting what we want. And so if you're missing out on that, it's a massive missed opportunity.

Yeah, absolutely. And you always hear right now, you know, there's a lot of chatter going on about the rise of agentic AI, right? The concept of, hey, like, you know, this sales development representative or this business developer representative can be fully kind of automated with AI that can actually go and act autonomously. And so if you think about like going back to the, you know, you know, Viewing content creators or these individuals that have these leads and they generate leads and they drive business, right? And they're using content as a distribution channel for them to get out there and get more, right? What we're really talking about, if you view this from the lens of everything going on in the world right now, is we're basically developing massive buckets of context per business, right? And that context might not be immediately accessible. You know, how am I going to use this context to 10x my business or to whatever my business— if I was to get started on Pillar and Interact tomorrow and I have no videos out there, I just get started tomorrow, right? Sure, I got to make content. Sure, I got to put my Interact quiz together. I'm at a certain point, I need my Pillar, right? And I put the Interact quiz there and maybe I put different Interact quizzes and I kind of sort people the right way. I'm collecting this information right now, right? It's more important than ever, putting the TikTok ban stuff aside where it's like owning your audience, A year, 2 years, 3 years, 4 years from now, whether it's even from Pillar or Interact ourselves, building these in our product roadmaps, it's just like, I don't need to hire someone to go and basically write email copy for 5 different types of funnels and then do different nurturing steps and then A/B test that and say, "You know what? We had a higher open rate for this one and a lower open rate for this one. Chances are that this one is actually not optimized for this audience." And then we look at it, oh, it turns out There's actually a question, question number 6, which asks, what's your body fat percentage? And the follow-up question they were asking, there's a lot of drop-off there. So, let's increase that. Okay. Now, we have more people completing this quiz and now, actually, we have a better context. And so, these AI agents, kind of going back to this, I think a year, 2 years, 3 years, the people who are doing a good job with quizzes right now are going to be the people who are going to be able to flip a switch when the products and tools are ready, right? A year, 2 years, 3 years from now when it goes, upload your data, import your Pillar, import your Interact CSV, the folks that have fewer empty cells in that CSV are going to be primed to actually automate their businesses, actually kind of revolutionize stuff with the power of AI. The people that are going to get started a year, 2 years, 3 years down the road, I think those people are going to be at a disadvantage. And obviously, it's important to get started whenever you're getting started, but if you're making content right now and you're not doing this, I think that you're just putting yourself at a disadvantage. It'll cost you more money to run your business if you don't do this than if you're just doing it right now.

Yeah. Well, two thoughts on that. One, we may or may not be working on something behind the scenes that potentially parlays nicely into that. That's awesome. I love to hear that. Couple pilots last year and it's pretty cool. And number 2, that was the initial premise of Interact. If you look at how the logic of a quiz looks, I wrote a post about this a while back, and then you put it side by side with how a neural network works, which is a lot of the basis of AI, it's the same thing. Not even changed. It's just the same thing. And so if you're doing this work of like mapping out all your work and seeing how it all correlates together and Oh, this type of person needs this from me and this type of person needs this from me. And same with the pillar. Like, if you understand the hierarchy of like, I need to order my products in this way and I need to offer these things to these people at this time, then the AI writes itself literally. Like, yeah, you are formatting your stuff in the way that the AI needs because the AI needs simplification, organization, and structure. And the businesses that are going to succeed with that are the ones that do that legwork now. I think it's such a misnomer that people think, oh, AI is going to come along, download my brain into it, and then it'll just be me. Nothing could be further from the truth in our experience. And I'm sure you guys have been working with it, but like we have too. And it's just, that is absolutely not true unless you make things really simple for it, you're gonna be so far behind when that day comes where it is like, oh cool, now you can make your own AI agent that can help your audience or talk to them on your behalf or whatever. You're not gonna be able to do it.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, you know, even like something weird, something we've been doing with AI, so we've been using AI for, I would say about maybe 2 and a half years now, 3 years now. In the very beginning, the AI, and this is, we're talking GPT 2.5 even before 3, right? AI was kind of useful for, you know, at the time a big focus at Pillar was like, how do we make people more money? And one of the first areas where we started to help people make more money was to get bigger and better brand deals. And part of that was by doing sentiment analysis on your comments and then kind of ranking you and being like, hey, actually there's like, you know, there's actually decent engagement here. Moving on, right? Like once we started to kind of build up our storefront capabilities, a big question was like, One of the biggest things, and I look at this every single day, you know, all right, today, you know, this week or something, you know, who canceled their subscription for our platform? And I think to some extent, every company does this. And why did they cancel? What was the reason listed? One of the biggest things that we fight, you know, towards to solve this for our customers is, I don't have something to sell, right? And so, yeah, that's a great reason to cancel, right? Because you don't need to monetize if you don't have something to sell. But how can we get you something to sell?

Right?

And so a lot of the times these people signing up, they're like, hey, I've got 500,000, 1 million followers. That's enough. That's a lot of followers.

Right?

And maybe they've collected some information before, and so they're porting it over and they're getting started and whatnot. But one of the tools we have, we just call it Pillar AI for simplicity, is an ebook generator. And the more prescriptive that you can be to the ebook generator, obviously, the better you prompt it. The better quality product's going to come out there. But one of the easiest ways to get that kind of output without having to put the work in to be prescriptive and lay out every single condition is to just qualify our audience and then kind of be like, hey, look, it's getting more and more granular. Instead of writing an ebook for a million followers, I want you to write this ebook for the 6,000 followers that distinguish to me that they're between 15% and 20% body fat. They've got this much time on their hands, they spend this much time in a chair, and they need something bespoke. And then in less than 5 minutes, Pillar AI will actually write an ebook. Those people are going to be like, "Wow, this is speaking directly to me." And so oftentimes, they're not even going to know. I mean, our AI spits it out into Canva and then you can go and put the human touch into it if you'd like very programmatically, but it cuts down the time to create one of these kind of bespoke products from— it takes people weeks or months. They got to outline the ebook, then they have to actually write the content, then they got to design it so it doesn't look bad, then they got to use personalized images, then they have to like trim it down, blah, blah, blah, this and that. You know, it, on with Pillar AI, they can do it in an hour, but you know, it's only as good as the context. And so if the context is better because you've already been qualifying the audience with the quizzes, that's how you get that kind of, you know, this is a product that actually is like pretty good versus this is just another AI-generated product. I think that's important to distinguish as well.

Yep. No, it's fun working with you guys because I feel like we're on parallel tracks. We have an AI that makes quizzes and it either reads a website URL or takes a chunk of text. And if your website is not written in a way that's really precise, or your, you know, ebook that you want to put in to make a quiz is not written in a way that's really precise, then the quiz comes out really poor because it's literally just reading your stuff and then reformatting it to be a quiz. And that kind of goes back to what we were talking about before. It's like, if you are not dissecting your audience into what are the different types of people that I work with? Because it's such a weird thing to me that everyone talks about like, oh, ideal customer profile, ideal customer avatar. I'm like, there isn't one. Like, you have a set of them and sometimes your set is not even small. Like in the fitness example, right? Like we see a lot of that too. Like workout recommenders, like You're not just recommending 2 different workouts to people. You might have 10, you might have 15. Like, it's not as simple as like identify one persona that wants to work with you. Maybe that's what you start with in the very beginning and your audience is small. It's like 1,000 people who are just this type of person, but people are all different and you have to understand like the archetypes, right? Which is like a Jungian term. It's like archetype literally means like the components that make you a human. Who are the humans that are in your audience? And the more you can break that down, you can make better content, you make better ebooks, you make better quizzes, make better product offerings. You're gonna be able to speak to people, right? Like in a way that's like, hey, I know who you are. I can see what's going on. Versus like, hey everybody, I know y'all wanna get more fit. It's like, no, duh. Like, I think 95% of people want to get more fit. There's like a study every, every year about that. And it's like, well, yeah, that's obvious. AI could tell you that by itself. What's going to differentiate you when the bots start coming out? And I think, yeah, yeah, you got to do that.

100%. And also, you know, oftentimes, I mean, look, most people that are kind of out there making content, it takes them a while to kind of hit their stride. Part of that is because they're just constantly— if you think about it from the perspective of a startup or let's say just a new company, you got to basically run a million experiments in order to figure out what's going to work. But when you run an experiment, sure, there's the, "All right, let me run this experiment. I'm going to test A versus B, this and that." But reflection is important and you can't reflect on how successful or unsuccessful you were unless you're able to qualify. If I've got a million followers and I'm targeting the 5,000 of them that I think fit this criteria, But I have no way of distinguishing that. I haven't qualified them, whatever. The product flops, right? I'm like, "Wow, you know what? I've got a million followers and I only made 200 sales and I haven't really done a good job of slicing and dicing my audience." And so, 200 sales divided by a million, it's very small, right? Far less than a percent, 0.0, whatever it is, right? But if I'm able to qualify and be like, "All right, I made 200 sales, but actually it turns out 160 of them came from this kind of subset of my audience that I was actually trying to target. And so, you know, I made 160 sales, right? And this subset is 5,000 people and okay, well, it turns out I just converted 3% of that, right? And so now suddenly it becomes, all right, I went from converting like 0.000 whatever percent to converting 3%. That's not a failure. That is like knowledge, right? And so now I go, all right, how do I, how do I increase that? For the next kind of tranche, right? For the next people or whatever. And so I think like this kind of reflection is important, especially if you're kind of iterating with this content stuff and trying to monetize. The more that you can kind of run these experiments quickly, the quicker you're going to understand what's going to work. But if you're not reflecting on them, you're not understanding because your data's muddled, your data's, you know, we'll call it confounding variables or kind of preventing you from understanding and drawing conclusions. It's going to take you a lot longer. And, you know, I think that's like a very important thing to just tell people when they're getting started is like, you know, you got to have clean data. Right. And that's ultimately what I think the quizzes are, you know, that's where their value is, you know, worth its weight in gold.

Right. And that circles right back around to what you were saying earlier of like content fatigue or content burnout from your audience. If you are onboarding people with a quiz and you're able to tag them in all these ways, like not just their quiz result, but also different answers that they gave along the way. Hey, this person really doesn't care about working out. They really are just here to learn about healthy eating. Great. Don't put them on the working out list. Put them on the healthy eating list. Only send them emails about healthy eating. Now they're only getting stuff from you that's useful to them, which increases your open rates and increases your list health and all that kind of good stuff. And when it is time to sell to them, you're not bothering everybody that doesn't care about your new meal plan ebook that you're offering. You know, you're not bothering the people that just care about fitness. You're only hitting the people that opted in and told you, hey, I want to learn about this. And there's something really powerful about somebody's voice actually mattering, especially in your audience, especially if you're a big creator. Where, hey, I'm an audience member of this creator. The creator has a million followers, but I told them that I only care about healthy eating and I don't care about fitness, and they only send me stuff about healthy eating. I feel so much more connected to that brand. I have so much more affinity for that brand than I would if they were just spamming me with like everything they have to offer.

Yeah, 100%. 100%.

Yeah, man, this is a fun conversation. I feel like we could do this again. Yeah, probably get it wrapped up. Here and just kind of let people know, like I said, you can now put a quiz directly inside of your Pillar instance. Is there anything that you'd add to that in terms of like the benefits for the audience?

Yeah. I'd say a couple of things. The first thing is the benefit of like, if you're using Pillar, you're using a link in bio and you want to get people to answer your quizzes, but you also want to capture more value from each session. From a visitor on your kind of LinkedIn bio, because that LinkedIn bio session, oftentimes there's two types of people that are interacting with your LinkedIn bio. Excuse me. The first type of person interacting with your LinkedIn bio is a first-time visitor. For them, they're just feeling, okay, I didn't know you had the store. Here's all the different things you do. They're kind of going window shopping. The quiz is a low barrier entry way for you to kind of establish a relationship further than them visiting, right? That back button, or the fact that that quiz is a funnel in the sense that you can either funnel them off the LinkedIn bio or you can bring them back into the LinkedIn bio, which is what most people do. And then they go and buy your other products or they check out your other products. Now, that's kind of the equivalent of someone, if we think about this from the perspective of, let's say, Reebok or Adidas running paid ads to get people to buy their newest sneakers. Oftentimes people convert on the 6th, 7th, or 8th touch. But if you can get a very, very meaningful session in, your number of touches before path to your path to first purchase gets shrunk to a point where it can actually make a meaningful kind hit on your— or meaningful, you know, boost your conversion. So that's one thing I'll say. The other thing I'll say on the quizzes and kind of best practices for the quizzes is to make sure that they're above the fold on your pillar, if that's your core. If you're trying to get a lot of quiz results, because ultimately that'll lead back feedback to your customer table on pillar, all this other stuff, make sure it's above the fold. On a phone, right, you've got your profile picture, bio, etc. You've got space for 1 or 2 items before they have to start scrolling. So if that quiz is really important for you to get, make sure that's above the fold on your Pillar so that you actually get a meaningful amount of traffic to the quiz. The other thing that's really interesting is if you're doing an Instagram story, you know, on Pillar— or sorry, if you're doing an Instagram story or you're doing a TikTok story or something like that and you want to drive people to your quiz on Pillar, you can actually share a bespoke link that will take them through the Pillar embed experience. And so instead of going to your LinkedIn bio, then they click on the quiz to do, they'll go straight to the quiz. When they finish it, they'll land on the LinkedIn bio. And so that'll get you people that are viewing the rest of your items for sale, right? It'll get you the quiz results and stuff as well. But it'll help you kind of, you know, just drive people to where they need to go, like really, really easily and with a smooth experience. So I'd say zooming back out here, right, make sure that your quiz is above the fold. If that's your core, are you trying to get leads that way? Take advantage of the fact that you can share the quiz directly and also kind of have people end up in the LinkedIn bio and yeah, use the funnel capabilities of Pillar to direct people to wherever you want to go after they complete the quiz, whether that's back to your LinkedIn bio or to something else or to a product specifically. But yeah.

Yeah. I echo both of those. The reducing the number of touchpoints that you need in order to make a sale 100% is something that can happen if you have a really positive interaction, like they go through a whole quiz. And then, yeah, definitely great reminder. You got to have stuff above the fold. It's funny how often that gets missed. It's like way down there and people wonder why it's not seen. You know, we're, you've probably been around long enough to, to remember this, but, you know, SEO is not necessarily people's number one channel anymore, but when it was, the number one result was like 66% of clicks. The number two was like 32, and then the number three was like 2%. So it's not different just because it's link in bio. It's like everyone clicks on the first or second link and the first way more than the second. So if you want people going through it, then have them go through that one.

So yeah, oftentimes, like you said, it's like asymptotic decline. There's a very long tail afterwards and you want to kind of capture the alpha in the beginning. So it's important to just be reactive to your audience too, right? If, if there's something that's above the fold and it's getting lower hits, like fewer, fewer people are converting on that. Than what you had before, then, you know, use that as information to tell yourself, hey, look, maybe I'm not marketing this correctly, or maybe this is something people don't want, right? And all that information is kind of available, available to you without having to do any analytics set up on Pillar directly. Um, so, you know, take advantage of it and always be iterating. I think that's very important.

Yeah, that's actually a great point in terms of like testing out different offers, whether it's a quiz or something else, as that number one option, being able to see, hey, this many people clicked on the first one, and maybe it's flipped where like people aren't clicking on the first one, and then it means your first offer is probably not what people want. So yeah, gives you that data. That's awesome. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, that's cool. It's cool. Well, thanks for being here, man. This was great. I'm excited about this integration, being able to keep people right in that experience. It's going to be super solid. So yeah, thanks for being here and sharing all your wisdom with us.

Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed chatting with you. Hope we can do this more often. And yeah, everyone go and check out the integration, get your Interact quizzes, and you know, share them directly with your audience. Let's, let's see who can kind of get the most success in 2025. And I think the people that are able to kind of build up these lead lists using a combination of quizzes and, you know, good distribution strategies are going to find themselves in pretty advantageous positions in the near future.

Yep. Yep. Totally agree. Totally agree.