How to Get Repeat Business and Referrals in Consulting

We are live. Welcome to episode 106 of Black Belt Startup with Feras. Thank you for tuning in. What's new in the world of entrepreneurship? Well, over the past couple of sessions, I've covered 2 critical parts of consulting and delivering the service. Whatever you sold, you have to deliver. So first I talked about pre-sales, how to set up the right expectations before the work begins. And then in last week's episode, I covered project management from initiation to planning to execution to monitoring and to closure and how to deliver the work in a structured, repeatable way. But today I'm going to talk about something most consultants overlook. What happens after the project is done? Because most consultants treat delivery like a finish line. They complete the work, they deliver, they send the deliverables, and then move on to to chase the next client. And that's where these consultants, they lose one of the biggest growth opportunities in their business. But today I'm going to focus on what I call land and expand. So before we get in there, let me show you where we are on this journey of the Service Delivery Playbook, the complete guide to help you grow your— to grow your consulting business while taking care of your clients and getting repeatable business and also maintaining profitability and your sanity. So let me walk you through that here. One second, just so we know where we are in this process. So that's what we been covering. So again, 2 sessions ago we talked about what happens pre-sales before you sign the contract. You do some discovery sessions, you understand the needs of the client, you present yourself, you educate the client about your services, you negotiate the price, the timeline, the deliverables. You have a signed contract, right? So that is— you have a signed contract. Then I covered 2 important processes here. One is do an internal sales to delivery handoff, even if it's just you. You got to change that mindset, that shift from sales to trying to convince someone, trying to build trust and rapport, to actually delivering the service in a structured manner. Talked about onboarding and that process, and I share some templates, all of that. All those links are available in last week's livestream. You can check those out in the description of the livestream. And then I covered the external kickoff with the client and how to prepare for that and how to have a very positive first impression on the stakeholders that were not part of the sales process, and then went over the entire project management lifecycle. So that is all in the last 2 episodes we covered on, on the live stream. Today I want to talk about land and expand. So beyond that first project, how to establish partnership with your clients, how to grow these accounts. Okay, and then in a future episode, we'll talk about scaling and systematizing using tech and AI and also delegation. But today the focus is, is on Land and expand. All right, so let's get to that. So how do you turn one project into multiple opportunities? And how do you do how do you do that without being pushy, without feeling like you are constantly selling? I'll show you exactly how to do it. I'll show you the numbers behind it and also specific— I'll share specific examples that you can apply right away. Now, before we jump in, if you're new to this channel, my name is Feras. Welcome. And my mission is to help you succeed. I've built 7 businesses, mostly in consulting, a couple to 7 figures and 1 to 8 figures that I ended up selling to a global media giant that And since then, I've I've been producing content and providing support to those who want to start a business. They want to get into entrepreneurship, and they're not sure how. They want to take the leap. They're not sure how. They want to get their first clients. They're not sure how. So check out the channel at Startup with Ferris at Startup with Ferris and Ferris spelled like my first name F E R A S. I have different playlists on planning, on vetting the idea, on working with business partners, with lawyers, with accountants, on sales, a lot of content on sales because this is an area where a lot of entrepreneurs struggle. 68% of entrepreneurs, they get into entrepreneurship and they don't have any sales or marketing background. If you are struggling with sales or marketing, check out those playlists I have on the channel. But today I want you to also think of questions that you're having, um, things that you're struggling with, challenges that you're not overcoming. Come back to me with questions. I'm here to answer these questions. Um, I get throughout the week, I get questions from the community. I answer them on these live streams. I cover a topic like we're talking about landing and expanding the work, but I also cover the questions I get. So if you are joining or listening live, leave me a comment again @StartupWithFeras on YouTube, and I will answer it. You can— if it's something personal, something you really don't want to share it with the world yet, you can send me an email at info@startupwithferas.com. You You can also leave me a message on LinkedIn. I do look at these messages and I help. I offer a couple of complimentary slots every week to help entrepreneurs overcome the challenges they're facing. A lot of people helped me along the way, and this is my way of paying it forward and helping others succeed, at least get to their journey with less gray hair and with less pain. But it is, it is I won't say it's easy. The journey of entrepreneurship is not easy, but when you work with, when you work with coaches, when you consume content and apply what you're consuming from those who have been to where you want to go, you can get to your destination with less resources faster. And again, with less gray hair. All right. So now let's step on the mat. Why most consultants stay stuck? See, the default model is that it's linear. Most consultants, they work on finding a client, they deliver the work, and then they move on. They repeat. So this means every new project requires More marketing, more outreach, new sales conversations, and most importantly, new rapport and trust building. And that is something that consultants think they have to do constantly, and they have to constantly start from zero. It is exhausting. And just to be clear, You have to have conversations, you have to have sales, you have to be out there networking and reaching out to your contacts and ex-colleagues and, and suppliers and vendors and people, ex-classmates and, and, and roommates. All of, all of that is important. I, I have a ton of content on how to do that. I want you to measure how many new conversations you're having every week. That's a very important key performance indicator, KPI. It's a very important KPI for new consultants to have conversations with new people. This way you let the world know that you have a new business. You also, you also practice your conversation starters or pitches and you get leads. So I'm all for that, but today I want you to focus on the few clients that you already have, how do I get more bang for the buck? And it looks like we have a couple of comments. Let me go there and see what we have. This is from Hi, Feras. Hi, thank you for being here. Love your videos. I appreciate it. So I have a— let's see, let me see the quick question here. Let me put it on the screen. Uh, I'm building a software for solo consultants scaling into boutique firms. Beyond basic operating operations and staff, what unique challenges or what unique growth challenges do you need software to solve? Okay, here. Okay, so from booking to billing. Okay, so so I don't know what your question is, but building software for solo consultants scaling into boutique firms. Well, I think you have to look at the needs of these solo consultants, which there's a whole lot of them. Millions start, at least in the US, millions start every year. So I think, I don't know if, I'm not exactly sure what the question is, but the challenge is in my mind, I speak with a lot of founders, a lot of entrepreneurs, 2 to 3 every week. A lot of founders struggle with with sales, how do I get sales, right? Or when they have it, when they close a deal, how do I deliver? So that is, those are areas, but there are backend challenges in terms of accounting. I mean, payroll comes later when you hire people, the legal setup that happens once, but, you know, in terms of booking and billing and tracking leads, there are all these challenges, there are a lot of solutions out there, so I just want to make sure if you're building software, I would, I would, my recommendation would be to make sure you're solving for a specific need. There's a specific problem that solo consultants have because you say billing. Well, there's QuickBooks. Again, this is in the US. There are many systems, but QuickBooks is one of them and it's been around for a long time. A lot of, a lot of people use it. So just make sure your software is well differentiated. Um, and, and, and I, I recommend speak to— I have this 10+5 framework. Speak with 10 potential buyers. In your case, speak with 10 potential entrepreneurs who are just starting out, and then— or maybe, maybe they've been around for a little bit— and then also research 5 competitors. That research will help you, I think, will help you niche, niche down your offer and also, also understand the the specific needs that you want to solve. So these are some quick thoughts. So going back to— thank you for your question again. So going back to where consultants stay stuck. So again, this cycle of finding a client, delivering the work, and then moving on back to marketing, back to sales, that is very exhausting. And not to confuse this again, I want you to be thinking of sales and networking That is all very important, but there are ways for you to grow beyond just new sales, especially after you've landed a few clients. So when you have a client, they trusted you, they bought from you, especially in services, especially in consulting, people buy from people. So, so if you, if it's taken you, let's say 3 to 4 weeks or meetings and calls and Back and forth proposals, negotiated, met the client a few times on Zoom, in person. They now like you, they like what you offer, they signed up with you. That's pretty important. Through that process, especially if you've delivered the service and they've witnessed how you work and they've seen the value that you've delivered, the impact of your consulting on their business, now They understand your value. They have context about how you work and how you address things and how you identify problems and your creativity. All of that, they've seen it firsthand. They've experienced it. And they also, most importantly, they trust you now because you've delivered value. You've delivered on your promise. And with this, with understanding your value, with understanding the context within which you work and the trust you've built, that puts you in a significantly stronger position than any new prospect. Remember, new prospects, they have to trust you. They have to learn about you, your service, why you're so good. They're talking to competitors. They have to trust you before they buy from you. But with existing clients, all of that is taken care of, which brings me to this concept of land and expand. So think of your business— land is your initial project, expand is everything that comes after. So I don't want you to stop at land. I want you to land projects. I want you to land new customers, 100%. And it should be over time as your business grows, as the business grows, You want to have in your revenue, in your P&L, in your profit and loss statement, you want to have potentially new revenue, recurring revenue, all that, you know, you track it so you understand where the business is coming from, so I want you to land customers, but the real leverage is how do I expand from what I've landed? So this doesn't mean that you push services. It doesn't mean that you make up things to sell to the client. It's really about identifying a natural next step. And I'll, I'll go over examples. I'll show you some numbers. I have a spreadsheet that I'll share as well in, in the notes for the, for the live stream. And I'll show you, I'll share a specific example. But what I want you to— before, before I do that, what I want you to do before you think of selling, before you think of expanding, I want you as a consultant— you're a vendor, you're a supplier— but I want you to think as a partner. Think of yourself as a trusted advisor, as a partner for the client, not just a vendor. And the shift is subtle but powerful because a vendor Comes in, completes task, and move on. A partner cares. A partner thinks ahead. A partner is aware of what's happening in the client's ecosystem, what their competitors are doing, what's happening in their industry, what clients, what reviews the client is getting. You're as a partner, you're really taking care of your client. So, so instead of coming to a client and say, because some people hear, hey, Feras said land and expand, so they go to a client and say, hey, what do I— what do you buy from me next? What did I, uh, what, what, how can I sell you the next thing? No. So, so, so instead of asking, instead of asking, here's— or telling, here's what I want to sell you next, in your weeks or months of working with this client, you've got, you've got a lot of exposure to the client's environment and what they're doing, their processes, the way they do marketing, the way they do sales, the way they do internal reviews of things. Depending on your consulting, what you offer, you get a lot of exposure to the client's own environment with a new set of eyes, with a clear mind. You're seeing things, you're seeing, you're seeing inefficiencies, you're seeing things that are not being done well. Your things— you're seeing things slipping through the cracks. So with that mindset of a partner who cares, you think, what does this client need next? So if, for example, let's say you've improved reporting, their reporting, whatever, whether it's financial reporting, marketing data reporting, sales reporting, Let's say you helped a client improve their reporting. You've automated it for them. They go into HubSpot or they go into— they have a Claude, they have a custom AI assistant in Claude or in ChatGPT, and you go in there and you set up all those things for them, and now they click one button and then they get the report. So you've saved them hours of aggregating data to produce their weekly or their monthly report. So that's great, they paid you for it, you're done. But maybe, maybe based again on your assessment and your understanding of their needs, they don't have the capabilities or they don't have the time to derive insights from these reports. So that's a logical next step for you, or that's a logical need that the client has. They have reporting, they have automated reporting. Now they could use help to create insights or to derive insights. Or let's say you've optimized a process for them. Let's say it's a manufacturing company and they have a lot of back office processes for assembly and production. So as you're going through this, maybe you've done it for one department Potentially you can scale this automation or this process optimization to other departments because now you, you have, you've seen the need, they've, they've tasted the benefit and the impact on the bottom line from your work. Potentially you can now expand that to other areas. Or let's say, let's say, let's say you've built my most favorite example, things I sold 20+ years ago, websites. If you built a website for them, Now you can drive traffic to it, right? Now you can create a mobile version of it. So where is the next need from you as a partner, from you who cares about the client's business? If you think of what you've done and how you've helped, and then you've also based on your knowledge of the client environment, now you can think of— you can identify the needs And that creates continuity, so you're not just pulling stuff from thin— out of thin air and pitching that to the client. It has to be something that you are good at, you do, or you can potentially have a subcontractor help you deliver value to the client, but there has to be a real need for the client. It's not about— Sales and business in general is about building these relationships, about building the trust between you and the client, because once they trust you, once you are a trusted advisor from their perspective, then they're more open and they're just naturally, they're just, they're less guarded. You're not a salesperson. You're not just pitching. At times you have to send a proposal, you have to negotiate, but that's during that sales— then there was that time of selling the service. But throughout the process of you working with a client, you are understanding again their needs and you're finding opportunities to help. And, and that continuity helps you thinking of reporting, then insights or process automation in one area and scaling, scaling that to other areas. All of that comes across as sort of, it's like it's creating continuity and that continuity creates opportunity. Now I want to talk about how you structure the expansion, how you structure those opportunities, but before that I have some questions. Let me, let me put those here. Um, I'll just, I'll go ahead, I won't put them on the screen, but let me just cover them right here. So question, what if the client doesn't have budget for more work? Right now, so so if the client doesn't have budget for more work right now, remember what I just said. I said in sales, in business, it's it's really it's all about relationships. So if you identified a need and the client confirms with you that yeah, this is oh yeah, this is something that is not helping us. This is something that we need to get fixed, but now budget is tight. I wouldn't push beyond that point. I wouldn't push at all, actually. There's, there's 2 ways to answer this. One is that there are always money, unless someone is really, really struggling. Like sometimes companies are struggling, they're in the red, and, and, and they had a bad quarter, a bad month, and Yes, sometimes companies are really struggling, but a lot of times they might not have a budget for this, for let's say marketing or for HR or for IT, but they have money elsewhere. Companies have, have money allocated to things sometimes they don't need. So, so I wouldn't— and, and how to find that budget, that's a different topic for a different live stream. But if the client Sincerely, they just don't have budget, or sometimes they don't have time because they have some very critical deliverables and they're busy with some initiatives. They're wrapping up the quarter or whatever. It might be the budget or it might be the timing. So I would make a note of that. I'd say, totally understand, but that's not a dead end. That's something you come up with a plan in that same discussion, or maybe over email. You say, I totally understand. Quantify the impact. If you've identified the issue that the client has and then how your solution will address that issue, quantify the impact on the bottom line— money, revenue, more revenue that could be had, or cost savings that could be achieved, or client satisfaction, or employee satisfaction, again, depending on the service that you offer. So quantify that. Yeah. and let them know that totally understand, I will check back with you in a couple weeks or in a month. And, and, and then, and then continue to follow up, continue to add value in your follow-ups. So at times, the timing is just not right. Like, someone just was just— someone pitched me something we, we need in, in our— in my business, in, in the Startup Affairs business. I know, uh, it's to do with social media, and I know I can improve. I know I was looking for someone actually, and I know I could use the help, but Eric and I, my co-founder and I and the team, we're super busy wrapping things up in— before— we want to wrap things up before the end of June. So we have no bandwidth whatsoever to address something that is leaking. somewhere else. We're aware of it, we want to fix it, we see the value that this vendor or partner would bring to the table, but we just have zero bandwidth for the next few weeks to address anything else but this big rock we're trying to move. So if that vendor becomes very pushy, that's going to leave a bad taste in my mouth and I won't hire them, but if they understand where I'm coming from now and I say, please check back with me at the end of the month, then we're good. So at times in sales, in business, timing could not be, could not be on your side. Timing is not on your side and you have to live with that. So, and hopefully you're pursuing other opportunities. You have other clients that you want to upsell, or maybe you have, you're doing more outreach and more marketing, or maybe paid ads, whatever you're doing to bring leads in. So Long answer to a short question, but it is important because clients do, um, do have sometimes timing or budget issues, or sometimes resource— they don't have any, any bandwidth to work with you on this. So that was the first question. The second question, before we go into how you structure your expansion, how you expand your opportunities, the second question I got is here: how do I identify real opportunities versus just adding More work for the sake of it. Okay, my friend, I don't want you to add more work just for the sake of it. It might be tempting, but that will erode trust. Remember what I said earlier, and for those of you who are just joining earlier, I talked about when you have a client, when you're selling, you're building rapport, you're building trust. That's at the personal level. Of course, you have to educate the client about your service. You have to understand their real problems. You have to make sure that your solution addresses their problem. All of that just is part of the sales process, and building that trust is important. Once they buy from you, and once you've delivered and they've seen, they've reaped the results of your hard work, that trust now is, is really high. The appreciation is really high. The, the gratitude is high. If you've done a good, good job and, and you help them solve the problem they had, they should be happy. They've paid you. They're singing your praises. Great. So, so if you start to do things that will make them question Your intention—that's not good. That's going to erode that trust. It took you two months to build that trust, and now now you're eroding that trust. So so I would I would definitely not just pull stuff out of thin air to add more work for the sake of it. Yeah, that's good for me. I'll make money. But then you're not building a long-term relationship, and you lose out on things that this happy client—that the now happy client. Could actually stop doing that will actually impact your expansion. So definitely focus on real opportunities, on value that you add to the client. Sometimes it's— I remember we were doing work for a client of ours. This is when we were building websites and they had been with us for a long time and we would do— we had an ongoing retainer. Renew it every month, every year, and it was in, in the thousands of dollars every month. So it was a really nice retainer. We took care of that client really well. And every couple years we would do— we'd recommend, I would propose a new web design so that we keep their brand image modern and, and relevant and, and using the latest design best practices. And the owner— I used to work with the owner directly, and the owner appreciated that. And he had, he had a taste, and he liked new things and new designs, so he was on board with this. But one year— and I usually, I would send the proposal in December to cover the, the 12-month agreement for the next year. And also I would say, this is the ongoing retainer we've had for years, we're renewing this, and here's the scope. And then I would say, oh, Optional, a web redesign. And again, every couple years they said yes. This one year they had a really, really bad year. It was something to do with their industry they were in, some new regulations, some issues, economy, what have you. So they had like their worst year ever. So now he's the business owner. Is thinking, and it was like a $20 million business, it was not a small business by any means, but now he's evaluating whether he wants to cut down my retainer in half because money was really tight, so this was not the time for me to pitch a retainer at the same value at the previous year as well as a new project that's— that is more sort of on the aesthetic side of things. So, so you have to also understand that even if the client loves you, even if the client sees the value, even if you're bringing leads to clients, at times they might have some constraints that you have to be aware of. So again, think as a partner. Think of, is this going to add value to this client? Yes, you can maybe, maybe offer So what I ended up doing, uh, I offered, okay, we'll put this web redesign project on hold. We'll revisit it in 6 months. And then for the retainer, instead of cutting this in half, let's keep it at 80%. And then I, I, I listed why it's important. If sales was hit last year, actually we want to do more of these activities that will help you get more leads. We were doing search marketing at the time. So, so we ended up instead of losing half the retainer, we only lost 20% of it. But, but, but that's— the client was in a bind. They, they, they were in the red, they were hurting, so they had to keep things to a bare minimum. And for, for us and for them, bringing that retainer down to 80% was the bare minimum because we were bringing that— we were bringing them qualified leads, and that was really important for their growth. So, so again, Keep in mind that you have to look for real opportunities and you have to be aware of the client's situation. We're not robots. We're not just saying, let me sell you, let me sell you more, let me sell you more, let me sell you more. No, it doesn't work that way. Okay, so now in terms of how to structure— this is the next point— how to structure expansion opportunities. As I said earlier, there should be some continuity into what you're offering. So expansion should feel like progression, not something out of the blue, not just selling something random. And typical ways to structure opportunities beyond that initial project could include monthly retainers, it could be ongoing audits, it could be ongoing advisory, it could be some ongoing continuous optimization, or it could be support and maintenance. Again, all depends on what you offer. If you are an HR consultant, it's different than an IT consultant, it's different than AI workflow consultant, it's better— it's different than if you provide services for speaking engagements. It's, it's all different if you do video editing. Look at what the service that you offer and look at the needs of the client, and then think of ways you can continue to add value, whether it's a retainer, monthly retainer, could be advisor. You come in once a month or once a quarter and you, you, you, you have a strategic discussion on what worked, what hasn't worked. Give people options, give your client options, pros and cons, because you're the expert, you're the consultant. You can do audits, you can do process improvements, you can just be there to provide support, you provide an 800 number that they can call you when there's an issue, like insurance, some customers like this. I don't have any ongoing business, but if I have a question, I like to have a vendor who's super responsive, I'm willing to pay a premium for you to respond to me within 2 hours if I have a question, so those are things you can do, to structure this expansion. So, so this is not just another service I offer. It's, here's what we've done, here's what you need, and here's a next logical step. So now let me show you some examples of what I said. Let me share my screen here. Let me go right there. So Let's say you're a web consultant, my favorite example, and let's say the initial project was you built a website and then you charge $5,000 for that. Let me use my cool, my cool, yeah. So yeah, and then one idea for expansion is you do search engine optimization, well, setup and optimization. Or as it's called today, GEO, right, or answer engine optimization, and there's an initial setup and then there's monthly, a monthly search engine optimization retainer, and maybe that monthly is $1,000 times 6 months. So in total, so instead of getting $5,000 off this client and then you move on to look for another client to build a website, you can do expansion number 1, SEO setup and optimization, $4,000, and then monthly retainer, $6,000. So in total, you have $15,000. That's 3 times the revenue. Now you might say, well, I don't know SEO. I don't know, I don't do SEO. Well, swap this here, what you see in row 7, from SEO setup to something else. What do you do? Paid ads that you can add? Maybe you do, you maintain their website. They have new case studies, new articles, they have a blog. Are there, how do you keep their website fresh? How do you update their content, new images? Again, depending on your client type. So that is something that you can think of based on what you do. Potentially you can have a trusted partner of yours who can do this for you. SEO. If the client needs SEO and you don't do it and you want to be involved and manage that relationship, you can have a subcontractor come in and do this work for you, and then you can maybe add a 20% margin for you to project manage this effort on behalf of your client. We can talk about this, having subcontractors and having partners deliver with you. That's a different discussion, but these are ideas I want you to think of for your service, for what you offer. What What else do typical clients need? And, and, and you can offer that. And, and you can see here that instead of, again, $5,000 of revenue from one, one engagement, we now have 3 times the revenue, $15,000. All right, let me see. Oops. Okay, my Presentify is going nuts now. Wow. Here you go. Oh wow, it's pretty cool. I do not want to zoom in. All right, here you go. All right, that's an example. Another example is if you're a strategy consultant, same idea. Your initial project, let's say, was marketing strategy. Well, you charge $8,000. That's great, but You came up with a strategy. The client needs help in executing this strategy. So that's $7,000 right there. It's the second line. And then another expansion, once you've executed this campaign, have an advisory retainer. Maybe they are doing things in-house and they don't want you to run the campaign, but they want your expert advice on how they're running their own campaign. So that would be expansion number 2, and that is a retainer, an advisory retainer, $2K times 6 is $12K. So we went from $8,000 to $27K. Again, we are talking about 3.3 times the revenue. So if you're a marketing strategist and you don't want to execute campaigns and you don't want to do advisory, think of— Excuse me. Services you can offer that will help the client. Potentially you can do a monthly workshop, 2-hour workshop, to educate the client on the latest in AI and marketing and content and, and how they can improve their processes. So whatever your areas of expertise, and it has to kind of map with what the client needs. And a lot of times you as a consultant have to also stay up to speed on the latest in your area, in your tech, in your sector, in your area of work, so that you can be a few steps ahead of the client and then offer them, offer them that service. And, and, and the third example here, let me go right there. So this is, uh, this is where this is beginner-friendly, I called it. And again, phase 1 initial project is Basic, a basic consulting package, whatever you— it could be you're doing a financial audit, you're doing an IT audit, you're doing the process automation with AI, whatever the consulting is, your initial project is sort of low entry point, $3,000. Great. Once you're in there and you spend a month with this client delivering a service, you will find things they need help with, and those map to your skills, and that's something you can offer. So, so expansion number 1 is whatever that additional scope— this is really a formula for you to figure out. You can— I'll share this link here. I put it in the description for, uh, for this episode. But basically, think of expanding. There might be a one-off, a one-off, and then something ongoing. Ideally, that nice recurring monthly revenue is amazing because Because you have almost guaranteed— some people cancel, they cancel on you, but you have guaranteed revenue coming in. So you don't have to be chasing new sales every week, every day, every day, every week, every month. All right. So in this case, we went from $3,000 a month for one project to $10,300. That's 3.4 the revenue. So Let me go back to— I want to talk about one thing here before we move on to the next section. So, so it's the interesting part here is that, uh, this is from Miguel Diaz 1292. Feras, thank you so much for doing these videos and lives. Uh, Miguel, you are most welcome. Thank you for being here and thank you for Your nice comment. I appreciate it. If you have any specific question, feel free to add it here or send me an email at info@startupaffairs. I'm happy to be of help. So, so one thing for consultants is the way you grow your business. Some of it come based on a plan you put you put in place. Say I want to sell this service. I want to expand going from. SMB, small and mid-sized businesses, to larger companies, to the enterprise. Or you might want to say, I want to start with selling service A and then service B. So all that based on what the demand in the market is and also based on your skills. But there are times where needs that the clients have will just surface and it's something that you haven't thought of and then it happens with one client and it happens with another client and you're sort of not picking up on those signals because that's not something you do today, but over time you're seeing a lot of clients asking for this and I would say if that is the case, invest in learning whatever the client is looking for and then offer that service. I'll give you an example initially from the analytics work that we've done. Initially, for those of you who are new to the channel, I started in 2003 after a very painful layoff, couldn't find a job. I started a web design firm with a co-founder. So we struggled a lot, but we got good at selling websites and that was great. But then people wanted to get traffic to these websites, so we're starting to hear about this thing called SEO, search engine optimization. So we've invested time to learn it and start to sell this project and then this service. And then paid ads were coming up— Google and Yahoo and others at the time. So Google AdWords, it used to be— now it's called Google Ads. It was called AdWords early on, and then there was Yahoo Ads as well. So So that's something I had no idea what it was, and like I didn't even think, I thought it was some sort of gimmick, like you mean people will click on this ad and come to you? Your competitors will go and click on these ads, they'll deplete your budget, that's what I thought, that's what the clients were thinking, but then Google was promoting that service, and there was some positive ROI, and— And clients were asking about it. So we went, myself and a couple of our team members, we became Google certified in Google AdWords, and then we became company certified. And that was a significant line of revenue for us. So we had website, then we have search engine optimization, then we had pay-per-click. When we started, we were just focused on building websites, web design, web development. And we were— we got into developing portals, which was a huge, huge mess. We'll talk about it later. That did not pan out very well for us. Sometimes you pivot into something and then it doesn't work out, just the nature of the beast. But when you have to, as a founder, that sense of inquisitiveness, that sense of curiosity has to be there. So when you're hearing a lot of clients asking about search marketing, then maybe something I want to invest time. It does require extra work, extra time, weekends, weeknights to learn these new things, but then you can offer it and have some amazing, amazing recurring revenue. When we were building websites, we had $200 a month worth of recurring. We had $300, maybe $500 a month. That was max. But, but when we started to sell paid ads and, and search engine marketing services, our retainers were at $2,000, $2,500, $3,000 a month. So a significant shift in the type of revenue and the actual amount of revenue that we were getting from these clients. So again, you have to plan and plan for different services. You might initially focus on a couple of services or maybe just one, be really good at it, Get the testimonials, get the thumbs up from the clients, get the referrals based on that service and the great work you do, but gradually you want to expand on your own, you're aware of things that you can do, and also listen to what the clients are asking for and listen to the market, the new technologies and new ways to do things, and we're living in this amazing time, scary a little bit. AI, AI adoption— there are a lot of ways for you to come in as a consultant in almost every sector. You don't have to be an AI developer to leverage AI. You can use applied AI if you are into— name it, you name it— IT or HR or content. There are so many ways to use AI effectively and optimize some of the mundane processes and then focus your energy and your client's energy on creativity, on doing things that are unique to the brand of your customer. So always look out for opportunities beyond just what you have thought of and your plans. Look, listen to what customers are asking for, Watch, also keep track of the competitors and what they're offering. Don't follow them blindly. Sometimes they're going into a dead end, a dead end. And then also be aware of the changes and technological and regulatory and external type changes that, that, uh, that will impact how you do your business. All right, so, so good. Um, the next section here is Timing, so timing and trust actually, so when do you pitch? When do you bring up this idea of expanding on what you've— what we've told? This is really important because remember what I said, the whole thread throughout today is about building, about establishing, building trust and maintaining that trust, not eroding trust. So if you start pitching services, new services, new opportunities too early, you will erode that trust. So do not pitch, do not bring up new services before you deliver results. Before delivering results, no sales. You got to deliver on what you promised, on what you sold. So before building trust, before delivering results, before you've demonstrated competence, No selling. Now sometimes this is probably a rarity, it happens like there's an immediate need, there's something that just comes up. Like a client in our— I remember we— I remember in, in one of the— one of our clients, they're, um, we were doing some analytics work at the time and they had an agency that was doing some search engine marketing for them and for some legal purpose or for some non-compete or for a reason, that agency could not work with them anymore. So it was, imagine a client that was a large brand, you know, with, I don't know, 5 or 6 figures of ad spend, so they're spending $50,000 a month, $100,000 a month on paid ads, and the agency that was managing that budget couldn't do it anymore for some, again, I forgot the specific reason, but— but there was some legal, some non-compete, something that their parent company could not work with that company. So anyhow, so that agency had to leave and they immediately asked us, hey, can you help with this? We have an immediate need. So we came in and did that and I sent a proposal and they accepted it and we worked. So that again, that's a rarity. If it happens, that's your lucky day. But in general, don't pitch new services, don't pitch new opportunities, before you deliver results, before you demonstrated competence, before you've added value. So the right sequence is deliver value, enrich or enhance the trust that you've built, and then identify opportunities and then expand. All right, so, so that's really important. If you skip step 1 or step 2, that, that delivering the value and demonstrating competence, and you start pitching services, it is— it's cringeworthy. Like, people— clients just don't appreciate it. They might smile at you, but, but back in their mind, like, why is this person pitching? Like, it's just, just not, not good. Um, I, I don't think it creates a, a healthy environment between you and the client. So I have a few questions. Let me get to those right here. So how do you suggest— how do I suggest more work? How do I suggest more work without sounding pushy or salesy? I mean, follow the sequence I said. You're a partner. If you're thinking of yourself as a partner, you really care about the client's bottom line. Like, if you do that, something in the universe happens. People feel that. People sense it, that you really care. Okay, so, so you care about the client, then you deliver the service. And then you understand the need that the client has, and then you bring it up in a conversation and you say, say, this is not a sales pitch, but I did notice A, B, and C, and I believe our team can help. I can bring my— now if it's just you, you have to obviously bring that up. and address the specific needs, but ideally if you have a business partner or someone else, not you, who can come in and address that, it makes you feel less as a salesperson. So you say you or someone on your team would come in and address, can go over my observations and the issues that I think can be resolved with our help, right? So just very very direct, very professional, at the right timing, most people would appreciate it. And then they'll say, okay, we're good in this category, we don't have time to look into it, that's fine. But you bring it up after you follow the sequence I mentioned earlier. Another question here: what is the best way— I don't know if I addressed your question, I think I did, but in case it's not clear, let me know. All right, what is the best way to transition from a project to a retainer. So that recurring revenue is something I want you to be very creative, and I want you to about and, and be proactive about and to pursue, because it does give you a lot of stability, a lot of stability. If you have, if you have a recurring revenue of $6,000 a month on top of your project revenue, you know that Even with some churn, even with, let's say, 10% churn, like $600. So planning-wise, you have $5,400 every month that's coming your way. I mean, that gives you stability in terms of hiring help, in terms of outsourcing certain things, in terms of marketing budget. It is sweet to have that recurring revenue. So, so how to transition from a project to a retainer? Again, depending on your service. I gave you a lot of examples earlier, but if you're listening live or watching live, just let me know what your service is and I can give you some specific examples, but look for ways where you can transfer your skills into something the client can benefit from every month. So if you are, let's say you are, You are in content marketing and your scope, that initial scope of work is to make sure the client has an active and engaging presence on LinkedIn, very specific scope on one channel, LinkedIn, and you have 3 posts a week and one short video. That's the scope, right? And maybe the project was for you to come in and develop content for them for one quarter. And that's it. You develop that for them, hand it off to them. Well, you came up with a strategy to help them identify their ideal client profile, update their LinkedIn presence. You've done all that prerequisite work, and then you give them content for a month, right? Or for a quarter. That's the project. Just that, that type of service lends itself to ongoing work, the retainer. So, well, you're happy with the results. You've got more followers, more engagement. You've got qualified leads from the content that you've been producing, so now, well, I can now do it on a monthly basis, and if they're happy with things on LinkedIn, and potentially you can expand that and you can do, maybe help them do Shorts on YouTube, maybe you can help them do things on, you know, Reels on Instagram, depending on their business, right? So map your areas of expertise with what they're looking for, And give it that ongoing nature where you have work and they're getting the value and that everybody is happy. And the last question, then we move to the last section, uh, when is the right time to bring up additional work? I already answered this a minute ago. Basically, after you've established yourself as a trusted advisor, after you've delivered the work, after you've demonstrated competency and they've they've experienced, and there's something material, something concrete that they have as a result of your service, that is a good time before you wrap up the engagement, you can say like, here are some other things, here's what we've identified, and here's what we can help. I mean, this is not in the services industry, but I'll give you an example. When I go to the dealership to get my maintenance on my car, they offer this free What do they have? They have a nice name for it, like a 20-point free checkup, right? Cool, free checkup, do it. But then they give me this report, okay, green, orange, red. So if they've identified a couple reds and they have the car, guess what? I'm going to have it repaired there. So they offer this free, this is their way of keeping me as a client and They offer this free audit, and then typically, especially as the car gets older, there'll be issues that need to be addressed, and you're there, and they've done your maintenance. Now they will fix your car. You'll have their car. You don't have to, you don't have to have it repaired there, but it's very convenient. They know you, you know them, they're taking care of you, and the cars are already there, so might as well just have it repaired with them. So that's that one way. that a car dealership keeps you, you know, they sell you that maintenance plan for the next 2 years or 3 years, and then every time you go, they have this free checkup, and then they give you a list of things that your car needs, and then you end up doing that with them. So be very creative in how you package these services. All right, so the last thing I want to talk about here is If your service— I mean, this works both ways, but for those of you who have a service that doesn't lend itself to additional work or to additional retainers or ongoing retainers, so I get it. If you, for example, I know of a consultant who helps law students apply to law schools, so they get very busy during that season, but then The students are getting in or not, you know, they're getting rejections or they're getting into these schools and they're most likely not coming back. I mean, those who got into the school, they're done. So they might have some repeat business, but for in general, it's sort of a one-off type consulting. There's 12 things you can do with the existing client, the clients that are happy, in this case, the clients who got into their law school of choice. You can still get additional value. You can capture additional value. And again, whatever your business is, whatever your consulting business is, whether it lends itself to ongoing work and recurring revenue, or if it doesn't, you can get the following. You can ask for feedback to improve your processes, request testimonials, ask for referrals, and ask for case studies. Do not be shy about these things. This is part of this land and expand strategy. Even if the client is not ready or they don't have a budget or the timing is not right to do more work for you, that's okay. We talked about this earlier. Note it down in your CRM or in— if you're using my DIY CRM, just— Mm-hmm. noted that in a month I'll get back to them. I'll share with them an industry report. I'll share some case study. I'll share with them some cool insights about their industry. This way you're always adding value when you follow up, and then I'll come back and re-pitch that ongoing work, the recurring revenue. But in either case, whether you're pitching a new service to them or a recurring service to them or not, Don't be shy before you close the project to ask for feedback, request testimonials, ask for referrals, and ask for a case study. Now don't just go in and say, hey, I need these 4 things. No, say, as part of our project management lifecycle, um, I'd like to go over a few things with you. First, I'd like to hear from you about how we've done. In sales, in project management? Are you happy? Are you not? And I have a template, actually. I'll share it with you. I'll put it in the note. If you haven't asked for client feedback, I have a list of questions. You could put them in a Google Form, email to the client, or you can just ask the client this on a Zoom call or in person. So ask for feedback. That's really important because if something's going really well, you want to keep on You want to keep doing that, and if things are not going as well, let's say in responsiveness or maybe in the quality of the deliverables, you want to hear that feedback. And of course, if you get less than stellar feedback, and it happens, it happens to all of us, see what you can do to make it up for the client. Say, oh, so sorry we did not meet your expectations. How can I make it up? Offer a free training thing, a workshop, offer a free design of something, offer something of perceived value, so make it up for the client if you get feedback that is not a 9 or a 10 on a 10-point scale, so I do have a, not a checklist, a template for asking for feedback, I'll share it in the notes of this episode. So that's on feedback. Second, ask for testimonials. So if they're very happy, don't hesitate, just say, it was great working with you, it means a lot to my business, can you share a testimonial? And then if you go to startupwithferaz.com/testimonials, I practice what I preach, we have a long list of testimonials, it's nice, it feels good that people appreciate what you've done for them, and other people who want to buy from you and they want to use you as a consultant, they'll see what others have said about you. And again, that's— it takes the client 5 minutes and they're done. And sometimes some clients, they said, sure, I'm super delighted, just let me know what I want to say. So sometimes you can send them a sample, they can just tweak it, refine it, and then post it on your website or put it on Yelp or whatever makes sense for you. So just let them know where this will go, the testimonial, and then while you're asking for testimonial, and actually I want to share this with you, you can ask for a case study, a case study, especially from a known— the more known the brand, the better, the stronger the case study is. I mean, case studies in a B2B sale, they sit on the top of the marketing pyramid in my assessment. There's nothing stronger than a third party, a customer saying this consultant is awesome and here's how they've helped us reduce our campaign costs by 75%. Like who wouldn't want to hire you if they hear this stuff? So, and I use this throughout our consulting accounts and projects and and, and the businesses I've done, we've used this strategy all the time. Make sure the client is super happy, bend over backwards for the client. We weren't perfect by any means, we had issues, but we always tried to make it up. But then when the clients are super happy, ask them for a case study. Let me show you how this— how you can go through and get that going for your business. Uh, this is, uh, Steven Banks. Yes, this is actually live. Yes, I am live. So if you have any question Let me know, happy to answer it. So, and thank you for joining, Steven. So here is, there's an article on my website. Let me just remove these controls. Yeah, if you go on startupaffairs.com, I'll put this link in the notes in the description, but basically how to collect and use case studies and testimonials. So again, if you haven't done this before, I know it, oh my God, I feel shy. I feel like I'm going to burden the client. No, no, no, no. There's timing. When the client is happy, after you completed the work, this is the opportune time to ask for this. So I talk about in this article that you're seeing on the screen, for those of you who are listening, I'll just walk you through it quickly. What is a case study? What's a testimonial? Leads love them. And then you want to have a diverse portfolio of proof. This is your social proof that you're— this amazing consultant that you exceed expectations, all of that. By the way, if you're new to consulting, you haven't had any clients yet, there's nothing wrong with you leveraging past quotes or experience, whatever great things people said about you. Sometimes they can do this on LinkedIn. They can add, they can have a review for you. I forgot what LinkedIn calls them, but there's a section where they can add that for you, or if they left something, sent you something personally, you can sometimes— they want to put their name, people don't want to put the client's name, you can put their initials. Don't make this stuff up, get it from people who said good things about you, but then here's in terms of the case study, all right? You basically— I have a sample in this article you can download and repurpose, but basically give a title, something that shows the direct impact on the client business, especially if you can quantify it. People love like improved X by Y, reduced costs, improved revenue, improved efficiency, something like that. And then list the challenge that the customer had, and then your approach to addressing that challenge, the results, and then a quote, and then some visuals, right? And again, there's a sample case study you can download, and I have even the text on how to ask for this in a professional, polite way, and you make it very simple. I won't go over all the details here, but you tell the client, hey, we want to highlight our mutual success, and I would be most grateful if you could share a few words about this experience. That's for the testimonial, and the same thing for the case study. And I know there will be some objections. Some clients don't want to share a lot publicly, so tell them that you respect their confidentiality, them that you will have the case study reviewed by them before it's published, give them assurances, and that you'll do all the work. Just get some specific things they're willing to share publicly, and then you create that case study. So go through this article on startupwithferus.com. I'll put the link in the description, and it'll show you exactly how to ask for testimonials, how to ask for case studies. It's proven, it has worked. For me, not every client will say yes. Yes, not just like sales, not everybody would, uh, let me go back here. Yeah, not every client will say yes to your request for feedback, for testimonials, for referrals, for case studies. No, some people will not respond to you. Some people say no thank you, but a few will say yes to case studies. More will say yes for testimonials. It's easier. And then I think a good number will give you feedback, but try to do these 4 things again: feedback, testimonials, case studies, and referrals. And referrals, this is the ultimate thing. This is where you're not having to sell. When a friend of mine, someone I trust, tells me that this consultant is great, they're, they're reliable, they're they're an expert in such and such field, I don't have to do a whole lot of validation because my trusted friend or colleague or ex-colleague, they— or spouse, they told me that this person is great. So, so this word of mouth, this referrals, is key to grow your business, especially initially. Later you can do paid ads, you can do all kind of marketing things, but initially, or if you're struggling in consulting today, That is, those approaches really, really work. And a lot of times we as consultants, especially those of us who are new to sales, most of us that is when we start, you just feel awkward about asking people for all these things. But remember, you are a trusted advisor. You are a consultant who's solving problems for clients. So it's not charity. You're not begging for things. You've improved someone's bottom line. You've generated more revenue. You brought them qualified leads. You made their website look great. Whatever value you've added, that has a direct impact, positive impact on their business, and you've established that relationship, so you can dip into that emotional bank account or that client bank account and ask for these things. As I said earlier, if you did not deliver value, if you did not demonstrate competence, if you did not deliver on what you promised in sales, that is not a good time to ask for any of this stuff. You can ask for feedback, specific feedback so you can improve, but testimonials, referrals, case studies, the ask has to come after you've delivered, after you've demonstrated your competence. And you should as a consultant, and trust me, this might not happen day one. We struggled a lot with our very first few clients. Luckily, they were nice enough and patient enough to stay with us, but the very first project, I always tell this story, this was after that painful layoff, we sold websites, we sold a 4-page website, a huge 4-page website. With no e-commerce, nothing sophisticated, just a basic website with a form. It took, it took us 3 months to, to wrap it up and complete it and collect the 50%, the $700 check, the 50% on completion. But it was mostly on us, partly on the client, because part of the, part of the thing I didn't know, I should have put it in the contract, the clients will provide pictures of their menu, menu items, right? they'll provide description of their items. The client didn't have any of this stuff. This was back in 2003, so websites were sort of new to small businesses. So it took us 3 months to deliver that 4-page website, but we made sure the client was super happy. They're still up and running, thriving. They're in Santa Clara called Athena Grill. So if you happen to be in Santa Clara, check it out. It's very good food, Greek food, amazing food. So So that's what happened. So we couldn't ask for a testimonial from that client when we were going through the iterations and getting the site ready, but after the site was ready and we added some free maintenance for a month, and then I went back and said, when the client was happy, and then, okay, we've made up for the delay, so now can you give us a testimonial? Can you give us— can you refer— can you be a reference for us? And the lady at the time was very nice and said yes, and especially because we were customers, we would go there like once every couple of weeks, so it worked out well for everybody involved. So initially, you might have some issues in delivering your services. That's— I don't want to say that's expected, although it could be. It happens because you're new. You might know your area, IT or HR or AI process automation, whatever it is, you know very well, but you haven't done the full cycle of selling, of property scoping, of negotiating, of delivering the service, of communication. So all of these areas you have to do the reps to be better at, which comes with time. You can learn from— I have a lot of material on my channel on all of these aspects of the business, but you really have to do it to master it. You have to do the reps. You have to do the the 10,000 reps. No matter what you hear on social media, no matter what you hear on YouTube or on Instagram about that, that instant becoming a millionaire instantly, it doesn't happen. You cannot go from $0 to $40,000 a month in consulting. It doesn't happen. Yes, it's like winning the lottery. No, don't buy a lottery ticket. Don't waste your time. But it's— the percentage is like, it's like the likelihood is like 1 in 293 million. But for the rest of us, hard work, commitment to your service, to your business, learning, applying what you're learning, and then, and then, and then, and then just give it, give it your best. Put a lot of time into it. It will pay off over time. Success is not guaranteed. If you're looking for that instant gratification, that instant success, this is not the channel. I'm not your guy. But if you're looking to build a sustainable profitable consulting business and you want to create, achieve your dreams of financial independence, of creating this amazing culture and have lifelong friendships with your co-founders and your teams and your team and your employees and your partners, this is, this is what I've done over the last 20+ years in 7 ventures, and I'm hoping that you'll find this content useful and that you can apply and apply to your business and in a practical way. So before we wrap up, If you have, for those of you who are live with us, don't hesitate to leave a question or a comment. I'll be more than happy to address it. And for those of you who are listening or watching later, do leave me a comment. I do address all the comments. I'm on a mission to help you, to help you get to your dream of being your own boss and creating a profitable business. So we have a comment from Steven. Let's see. What is your advice about building a pipeline a pipeline of businesses. So a pipeline, I'm assuming a sales pipeline, leads. So I'm gonna— today, the session today was more on delivery and about generating revenue from existing clients, even if you only have a few, 2 or 3 clients. This is what today's session is about, but your question is about Building a sales pipeline. So I say I'm a big proponent of— let me back up. For new consultants and those of you who are struggling with consulting and sales, most, if not all, that initial revenue is going to come from your warm network. So I'm a big proponent of doing outreach to your network. So, so, so go to your LinkedIn profile. In the settings, there's a way to download all your data, all your contacts. So download that, put them in a Google Sheet or an Excel spreadsheet, and then identify, identify those that you can reach out to. Um, maybe let's say you, let's say you offer HR consulting. So do you have anybody in your network who is an HR manager, an HR director, VP of people ops, right? Or if you have close friends, people who know you, who trust you, they know that you're really good at what you do, can they make an introduction to HR managers, directors, VPs? So I would say spend a lot of time identifying opportunities within your warm network before you do paid ads, before you do other things. I'm not saying those are bad things, no. Those are great, but initially that outreach is really important. So to build a pipeline even from existing clients, yeah, it is, if you have existing clients, there's a process I'll talk about in a second. You can have like in bigger companies or when we were in 7 figures and 8 figures, we had 2 ways of tracking revenue. One, Say new, new sales, and then we have the customer success team. This is recurring revenue, so how to maintain and how to grow it. So new sales, you have— in my mind, it's all about outreach. Once you exhaust your warm network, you can start doing cold outreach. You can go to events where your potential clients are, so conferences, exhibits, meetups. That's— and I have— if you check, check out, I'll go to my YouTube channel, I'll show you. There's a video called The Ultimate Guide to Starting a Consulting Business, and it's a 51-minute ultimate guide, but I go specifically into how to do it with templates and worksheets and all that good stuff. So that's for new business. So you always have to have that, like even if you're very busy delivering what you've sold, you don't want to, you don't want to I don't want you to go through that feast and famine cycle that most consultants go through, and what happens is that when they get so busy delivering what they've sold, they neglect marketing completely, so when you're very busy delivering, you still have to have some marketing efforts, some outreach efforts, some— instead of maybe going— if you're very busy for the next 3 months because— and revenue is great and profitability is awesome, Great, so instead of maybe going out once a week to a networking event or doing like a marketing initiative, you know, once a week, maybe you can do it once every 2 weeks or once every 3 weeks, but maintain that, you know, that funnel, right? That the whole— you have your target audience, where are they? Are they on Facebook groups or on LinkedIn groups? I can go and contribute to those groups. Are they in person? I can meet them at different, you know, different ways. If I'm selling something local, I can go to the local chamber to be an eye. So depending on what you offer, I think you want to maintain some level of marketing, some level of networking, some level of outreach, even when you're very, very busy delivering. Now from existing clients, I think what I said throughout this session today is on listening, understanding what— when you are in the thick of it, when you are working with the client and focusing on your service, you're interacting with the main point of contact, with other stakeholders within the company, so you're there understanding or getting— becoming aware of the challenges that they have, becoming aware of maybe they're solving things inefficiently, So being an active listener and sort of like almost like an investigator without— you don't want to be awkward, you don't want to be too nosy, but over time as you're working with the client, you'll have access to things and to their internal dynamics and who does what, and I think that in your mind, okay, there's an opportunity there, there's an opportunity there, so track those in your spreadsheet just like a new opportunity. And if you're not tracking opportunities, I'll put a link. I have this DIY CRM. So if you're just starting out, do not buy a CRM yet. I'm a big believer of CRMs. I use CRMs in every venture, Salesforce, HubSpot, all of that, 100%, big believer. But initially, if you don't have a whole lot of leads yet, track these opportunities in a spreadsheet. And then in your mind, think of each opportunity from an existing client, okay, when is the get— who's the decision maker on this? Who— what are the obstacles? Who will be impacted? Who is impacted today with this issue not being fixed? So in a way, do your own research and from what you're hearing from the client, and then after a specific milestone, before you say thank you, goodbye, you know, with the project, when you bring up that. So I would track again, in terms of pipeline, track a pipeline for new leads, for new sales, and also one for existing clients as I just described. Another one here, yeah, what do you recommend if the repeat business becomes bigger than a sole consultant can handle? Okay, So what the question here is, again, thank you, Stephen, for posting the question here. So what do you recommend if the repeat business becomes bigger than a solo consultant can handle? Do I get a few trusted independent contractors? That is a very, very good question. And I'll give you the, the most common and best consulting answer. It depends. But I won't leave it there. I mean, depends on, I would say, what do you want to do with your business? If you want to stay a solo consultant because it has worked well for you and you're making a good amount of money, good profit, and you don't want to worry about employees and performance reviews and people issues, and so if that's your vision and that's what you want to do, Nothing wrong with that. I think there's a cap on the revenue and the profit you can get as a solo practitioner. Potentially, there's the— many years ago I read this Million Dollar Consultant. You become an industry superstar and you can do other things. You can write a book and get speaking engagements, and there is that path. It's again, very, very small percentage of people end up there, but that's one path if you want to want to stay as a solo consultant, but the majority of people will, the majority of solo consultants, they're not going to be able to grow their revenue beyond the number of hours, or even if you're selling based on value, there's, you'll reach a cap. So that's the trade-off. You might have a very good living, nice profit margin, but there'll be a cap if you want. And there's also one more thing here is that long-term life and business, it's all about trade-offs. At one point when you are close to retiring or you're sick and tired of the business, you want to sell it, if you're a solo practitioner, there are some not so great trade-offs like People want to buy your business, but if everything is tied to you, it's going to be really, really difficult to sell that business. I'm not saying you can't sell it, but you won't sell it at an optimal value. Actually, we just helped last year, we helped a founder sell his business, and he was a solo consultant for 20+ years, nice margin, but it took a bit of, you know, the deal, He could have gotten a whole lot more value had he had more processes, had he had more like a team around it, but that's one path. Now, if you are looking to grow both in revenue and profitability and you want to hire, what you suggested would be a good step is before you hire and you bring this work in-house, you can have some trusted independent contractors who can work behind the scenes, while you can be the client-facing, right? Potentially those independent contractors, after you've tested them, you like them, they share the same values, the same responsiveness, the same work ethic, potentially they could be also client-facing, but they're just still independent contractors. So, so that model works. I know someone, a friend of mine here local, for 15+ years he wanted to just— he was the manager, a director, and he, he was sick and tired of the whole corporate thing. So for almost 15 years, he was on his own, one person with a bunch of contractors helping him behind the scene, and he kept the business to a certain level. And then later he said, okay, now I'm getting closer. I want to, I want to leave this business in 5 years from now. So now I have to build it, I have to grow it. So he brought in, brought in people to be with him, a project manager and then a designer, and then he bought a small company. He got a loan from the SBA. So, so now he has He shifted his perspective on things, and now he has a business with a team, and the business has grown significantly since, because his end goal, his vision changed, which is okay, you know, people change. So I think you have to make that decision. If you want to stay as a solopreneur, I think you'll have a cap on revenue and profitability, and then there's some— you won't reach the optimal value when you want to sell the business later, if you want to grow in terms of revenue and profitability, and also potentially have a significantly better value when you want to exit the business, then you want to take that growth path of having team members and having processes and systems and really scale the business so that it runs without you. I'm not saying this, like some of the stuff you see on YouTube, like, I work 2 hours a week and I make, you know, $2 million a year. No, no, you still have to be involved, but you won't have to be doing the work yourself. You can have other people, you can delegate and have other people do the work on your behalf. So these are my thoughts. In upcoming livestream next week or the week after, I'll be talking about— actually, let me share this. I think I shared it earlier. But I will be covering this one right here. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. So, so, so we've talked about pre-sales 2 live streams ago. We talked about project management last live stream, and today we talked about land and expand. Either the next live stream or the one after it, I'll be talking about scaling. And that's, I think, if you decide not to be a solopreneur and want to grow in terms of how you systematize, how you leverage tech and AI, how you delegate. All of that. There's a lot of science to systematizing and also to delegation, but also there's a lot of art to it, so I'll be covering both the science and the art of scaling in an upcoming episode, so if you're not a subscriber, please subscribe, and if you're liking this content, I appreciate a like and also again, provide any feedback. Before we wrap it up, I do want to share again, this is the YouTube channel. Um, what I want to, to highlight is this, uh, the video I mentioned earlier. Yes, the Ultimate Guide to Starting a Consulting Business. It's again a long— a lot of these videos here are long. Ultimate Guide, 51 minutes, but I go over all the specifics on growing, starting and growing the business. And then if you're struggling with proposals, I have this other ultimate guide, an hour and 4 minutes on, on writing winning proposals. So, so check those out. And the last ultimate guide that I just released, actually one on, on delivery. So I talked about delivery at length with a lot of worksheets and templates that you can leverage right away. That is it for today. So yeah, uh, Steven, yeah, you are most welcome. I appreciate you being here and asking questions. I do these live streams every Tuesday at noon Pacific and 3 PM Eastern, so just if you subscribe to the channel, you'll get the notification, you'll get the livestream announcement, and feel free to email me if you have a specific question, info@startupwithferus.com, I'll be more than happy to answer. Alright, thank you all so much, and see you next time. Bye.