Why Great Ideas Get Stuck with Fiona Stevenson

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You're listening to Foresight, the weekly podcast about HR leadership and the future of work. We explore the ideas, trends, and the real stories reshaping how work gets done. I'm your co-host, Mark Edgar, a former consultant and coach turned Chief People Officer on a mission to make work more human.

And I'm Naomi Teitelman, former big firm consultant and HR executive, now striving to make work better one leader and one organization at a time. Every week, we chat with top experts and dive deep into the issues facing HR and business leaders today, from retention and engagement to AI, flexible work, culture, and leadership effectiveness, with ideas you can use right now to lead with confidence into the future of work. Welcome to Foresight, a podcast about HR, leadership, and the future of work. I'm one of your co-hosts, Naomi Teitelman, and I'm joined today by our next special guest, Fiona Stevenson. Fiona is CEO and founding partner of The Idea Suite, where she helps brands unlock market-ready growth by turning human insight into commercially viable ideas fast. Fiona and I met, I think, about a decade ago at Forward Together, not to be confused with Future Forward, but Forward Together in Toronto, and I've been following her work ever since. I love, Fiona, your pragmatic approach to innovation, and when I saw that you had a new book out, it was the perfect excuse to invite you to our show. So welcome, Fiona. It's so great to have you here. How are you doing today, and where are you joining us from?

I am great. Thank you so much. I'm joining from Toronto where the Idea Suite is based, although we're often on planes kind of around the world. But yeah, just enjoying this great weather, feeling very happy and grateful to be here and be with you. I feel like when you see people on LinkedIn for years and years, you forget that you haven't seen them in person in a decade. But I see Naomi all the time.

I know it's nuts. We were just catching up before we hit record that Fiona and I ran into each other at a resort in Muskoka. I mean, gosh, it was definitely before the pandemic. It was probably like 8-ish years ago.

I want to say. I feel like our kids were little.

They were little. Yeah. And we were just catching up that our kids are not little anymore. So time flies. But the joy of LinkedIn that you get to see each other and feel like you're connected even when you're not. So kudos to LinkedIn for that.

This is not sponsored, but—

This is not sponsored and this will not be an episode about LinkedIn and the trials and tribulations of it. All right. Well, before we get started, we like to check in. So my check-in question today for you, Fiona, is What is the last breakthrough you had personally or professionally, and why do you think it happened?

I mean, I think the breakthrough— I mean, I guess it's not the last one, but an evolving one— has just been bringing more of myself to everything and being more and more authentic. That was definitely a COVID— I'm sure you've heard this on the podcast many times, but being so compartmentalized before COVID and then really Trying to hold that together in early COVID days and at some point just not being able to anymore and just sort of like, oh yes, this is my life. This is the chaos behind me. This is the stuff I don't show. This is me not feeling great today. Or like I used to, we used to have a Monday meeting, like a Monday team meeting Monday morning. And Monday mornings are just not good for me. And one day I was like, I'm not my best Monday morning.

And let's say it. Let's not hide that anymore. Can we change this? 100%. 100%. Someone booked a meeting with me the other day at 8 o'clock in the morning, and I was like, oops, I thought my Calendly was blocked at that time, but it wasn't blocked at that time for like that specific length meeting for some reason. But I was like, no, I'm sorry, like 8 AM is not a good time for me. Let's move it any other time in the day. So I feel like it was a breakthrough for a lot of people that like, let's just be ourselves and, you know, and have it be our best selves. Yeah, be our best selves.

It's a win-win for everyone. And I just—

exactly.

It's so almost Honestly, a little embarrassing to admit and think about how many times I was sort of self-abandoning, but also just, again, like not giving people my best and just not saying anything. And it was this, this, I hope, archaic idea of like, I must show up this way. This is what, you know, it means to be professional. You have no personal needs at all.

Yeah, totally.

It's, it's kind of crazy. It's been a journey. And it's like probably the feedback that I get most from people if I'm speaking or just out in the world. They're like, you're very Which maybe I would've taken as an insult, you know, years ago, right? Like, oh, what does that mean? Like, I wanna be polished, I wanna do this. But now I'm like, oh, I love that because I'm trying to, yeah, just be that. And I'm glad it's reflected back to me.

Yeah, I love that. And I love how you mentioned that this is a win-win, 'cause we're gonna talk about innovation in this episode. And, you know, innovation does not get nurtured when you're, you know, not being your authentic self and you're trying to, you know, pretend that everything is fine when you're like holding a kid under your arm and also like, you know, cleaning up the floor while you're in a very important business meeting.

Yes. Oh, memories. Yeah. All right.

Well, before we dive into the book, I'd love to hear about your story. So can you take our listeners through your career journey from your time at Procter Gamble to founding your own innovation agency and what ultimately inspired you to write your new book?

Yeah, thank you. Well, I actually studied psychology in university, so Procter Gamble was one of those few amazing companies who who hired beyond just like standard business. And I was quite like extracurricularly involved in things. So people are always like, oh, you should apply to PG. And so I didn't really know what I was getting into, but it was an amazing place to start a career, such great training. And I became really passionate about innovation there and product innovation, but also just consumer behavior. I was like, this is actually the perfect use of my psychology. And so like, I loved being in focus groups. I loved watching consumers. And then as I kind of grew in the company, because I was there over a decade, I became really obsessed with like people stuff too, like almost really the HR side of when am I motivated? When am I not motivated? Why do I perform differently in different environments? Why with some people do I just have that like chemistry? And it's like all my best ideas are coming out. And then with other people, it's like, you know, it doesn't feel safe or the same. So there was always like this, like thread of kind of just like fascination with people. And then when I co-founded my agency with my co-author 11 years, 11 and a half years ago, I guess, that kind of followed us. So we've worked now on hundreds of projects with teams across the world, usually with big, important, you know, innovation agendas. And it's so interesting because every project is so, so different, but there's these common themes and patterns of just human behavior. And how, again, no matter how compartmentalized we might think we are, we just bring ourselves to everything we do. And that includes, you know, our brilliance and our creativity, but also our fear, our biases, and all these things really impact innovation outcomes. So back in probably like 2018, 2019, we were like, we should write a book about this, about like almost like where innovation goes wrong and what is that like? We were going to kind of diagnose it like a prescription, like Here's the symptoms and here's the diagnosis and here's the prescription to make things better. And so we outlined it and then we just got busy and kind of shelved it. And then we both in like late 2023 started like, hey, should we bring that book back? We got this nudge. And I think for me, my personal why, because it is a heavy lift to write a book when you're doing other things and running an agency, was just this idea of like the world really needs great ideas more than ever before. Like really big ideas. There's huge complex challenges, and we have the privilege of working, you know, with these big corporate teams and doing this work. But we wanted to sort of democratize the principles of innovation because in the end, it is kind of simple. Like there's a simple process that we've designed, which is quite easy to teach, but then there's also these mindsets and behaviors, which is just as important, if not, you know, more important. And if people at least know them, and start to see themselves in them, then that might give them the confidence to, you know, bring their great ideas out into the world. So that kind of became the idea. And I love, thank you so much for inviting me, 'cause I love just talking to people about it. I love sending them the book. I just wanna kind of get it out there so that people feel like, hey, like I have these ideas and now there's a way, there's a path for me to get them out into the world and into, you know, people's hands or minds.

Yes. Amazing. And so let's go into one of the principles of the book, which is that most organizations don't have a creativity problem, they actually have a human, organizational, and execution problem, which may be a little bit liberating for those of us who feel like the word innovation is really scary and non-approachable, and I can't be innovative, I'm too busy heads down doing my own work, right? So can you walk us through what that distinction looks like in practice, and what does the innovation curse feel like from the inside when you're living it?

Yeah, so I mean, we always say when we teach innovation, we say like, we're all creative. I mean, who are the most creative people you know? And people usually say kids. And we were all kids once, right? So we started to, over time, tell ourselves we weren't creative or, you know, put blocks on our creativity and filter things. So all the creativity exists. And in an organization, all the creativity and the best intention exists. But yes, again, it's like this, this human stuff that really gets in the way. So this innovation curse is where people are like, okay, we need ideas. And there's kind of this like force and pressure. And they keep having strategy sessions and brainstorms and meetings and talking about innovation. And it's like, we should do this, we should respond, and competition's doing this and we need to do this. But it's just kind of breaking down. And really the biggest common ingredient in that is fear. And it's this fear, like there's this, yes, this fear of inaction, but in a way the bigger fear is the fear of action and like choosing wrong, taking the wrong direction, the consequences, fear of failure. You know, fear of just things not working out and how that will reflect on them, fear of, you know, job security. And so these are real. I mean, I'm not denying that these exist in a corporate world, but it's how do you design a process that shines a light on that fear and kind of like, you know, allows us to work with it versus pretending it's not there kind of under the surface affecting everything.

Yeah, so let's go, let's double-click on that and let's go into the process that you've identified in the book with Shelly. You have 6 I's. So why don't you tell us a little bit about the 6 I's and where people think the process will break down, but where it actually does break down?

Yeah. So interesting because what people usually, when they think about innovations, and they are scared, by the way, it's a big scary word. Like I remember even close friends when I'd been working in innovation for years, they'd be like, what do you actually do? Like after several years.

Yeah. It's a high pressure word for some reason.

It is. And it sounds, they're always like, do you like, is it very technical? And I was like, it doesn't have to be. And we're not designing like the ultimate, you know, like technical solution. So, our 6I process, it starts with identify, and this is a really important step, but it's kind of the least glamorous step. So, when people think about like innovation, they usually think about ideation, and even teams, they always feel like they're a bit behind. So, it's like, oh, let's just jump to ideation. We just need to have ideas, but we actually don't need to start with ideas. We need to start with identifying what are we actually trying to solve for. So, we spend a lot of time here. I mean, I say a lot, our process moves quite quickly because momentum's really important, but we do not move on from identify until we've really clearly agreed together with the important stakeholders, what are we trying to achieve ultimately in market in a few years? But also with this program, what does success look like? What's our kind of vision of success? What are the guardrails? So no matter what we're designing, whether it's a product or an experience or a new way of doing business, it's like, what are the solutions that are in scope, out of scope, mandatory? And then getting really clear on that. And I think that's a misconception of, you know, blue sky, like no constraints. But constraints are actually really important. So once we're clear on that, we move to insights. That's the consumer touch, the human touch. It's so, so important. I'll probably talk more about that through the course of this conversation because it's kind of the key. Witnessing real humans, you know, interacting with your product or around the problem you're trying to solve, kind of witnessing that problem really opens a lot of eyes. Then you have inspiration. So this is another one that's often kind of skipped over before going straight to ideation. It can be really challenging to ideate and have a brainstorm in kind of a room with blank walls, just, okay, let's have ideas. And usually that yields the same ideas that everyone's been having for years, so it doesn't feel new. And that's where people are like, these are just the same ideas, what are we going to do? So inspiration is really key to unlocking people's creativity and sparking it. And that means case studies from around the world. That means you know, in and out of category product stimulus. So if you're designing a new candy, you might not just want like candy in the room, but you might want to have different like fidget toys and things from like snacking foods and like, you know, even sometimes we've used like paint swatches in ideation because they have very interesting names. And those names can kind of, again, like open your mind to like, oh, that's a really novel approach. So that could be a cool, you know, naming convention. So inspiration is great. Then ideation is what most people know. Actually having ideas. And then iteration, super important too. So when you come up with, I mean, hundreds sometimes ideas in a brainstorming session and downselect to the top 10 or 15, they're still only 50% baked. So it's really important to iterate them, kind of like write them up into concepts, iterate them within the business, share them with consumers. And that makes them like the 80 or 90% where they're starting to be like, these are exciting, feasible things. And then implementation. Which we don't tend to get involved in. That's where we kind of hand off. And it's funny because although we have this 6-step process, what I've really realized in the last year, I would add a 7th I now, which is intuition. And, you know, as I think about kind of psychological safety and all those things in a workplace, those really intuitive people— I actually saw an article about this on LinkedIn this morning, but this idea that, you know, these people who are very highly sensitive and intuitive, They are the people that you really want in your innovation journey because they're spotting signals, you know, they can kind of sense things, but they are also really sensitive to unsafe environments or, you know, where fear and those kind of dynamics are coming out. So that's where it's really important to manage like these, again, human aspects of your whole innovation journey to make sure that intuition is really leveraged.

And I love that your 7th is actually also an I.

Yes, I know.

I was like, it works.

It actually works.

Perfect. Okay. We've gone through about 15 minutes so far without mentioning an I that goes at the end of an A. So AI. I had a bit of a debate at a recent conference about whether to use AI as an initial brainstorm tool or not. And people were very, very polarized on this topic. What are your thoughts?

Yeah. So interesting. I mean, I think AI is an input, and I think it can be a great input. I just don't think it's like the whole answer.

Yeah.

So I love— the best concept I probably learned at P&G was this idea of like the pendulum swing. I remember my early 20s of like, you know, things go like really big in one direction, then they go the other direction. And since AI has really, I'll say, exploded in the mainstream the past 6 to 18 months, it's just you're also seeing this craving for like human connection and the human side of it and this combination. And that's where I feel like, I think, you know, we do starter ideas when we have an ideation session. So again, people aren't coming into the room and there's kind of nothing there. So our team will come up with ideas, which we say they could be good, they could be bad, they could be like a little off strategy, but maybe they'll spark something for you. So that's where I think, again, I would feed into your AI tool, like what are the guardrails? What's the endgame? See what comes out. Kind of get rid of the stuff that's really bad, maybe optimize a little bit of the stuff that has potential, and then have it there as a starting point where people can take it and say, well, this is interesting, but this is how I would make it fit our brand or, you know, our company better. Because that's something that no matter how much you train it, I mean, we just know— you just know if you've been working on a brand or business for a few years, you just know kind of the DNA of it and where something like that just won't work or that feels more like this competitor and or this is how it needs to really be distinctive or breakthrough. But I think it can be great. It can be a great input. It can be a great way, again, when you have those ideas that are 50 or 60% baked to kind of like flesh them out and improve them. But then I would still do that human check because you can show something to a consumer in, you know, a focus group or a co-creation workshop and they're like, I have no idea what you're talking about. So you think you're describing, you know, this really like whatever it is, thin, crunchy cracker, and I'm envisioning a soft biscuit. Like, so not as clear as you thought.

Yeah, no, it's interesting because some people were saying like, it's great at solving the blank page problem. And others were saying, I actually think the blank page problem needs to be solved by the brain, the human brain, and then you can go to AI afterwards. And I don't think that there's a simple— I don't think there's one answer for everything. I love the idea of even asking AI, like, provide some really terrible ideas that would solve this problem, right?

Yes.

Like, that could get your juices flowing too.

So I remember that was a brainstorming technique that I learned once at P&G ages ago. And I thought it was like a little bit silly, but it's almost like, okay, now you're ideating on this problem and come up with like the 10 worst ideas.

Yeah.

Right? So you come up with terrible ideas and then the next step is now turn those into good ideas.

Right.

And suddenly you're like, oh yes.

Right.

A fridge that warms things. Okay, that's interesting because you could actually take the heat generated to cool like, So, yeah. Turn it on its head and lead to cool solutions. And I think what the person said to you is kind of brilliant. This idea of that blank page is also important. Like, we like to assign homework before an ideation session where you do empty your brain before you're seeing anything else, before you're seeing stimulus and other people's ideas and AI ideas. It's just getting that stuff out of your head. Sometimes that also just frees you to be open to new ideas because when they're not out, they're kind of like stuck and trapped there. And they're like a filter or a lens, which is kind of distorting your ability to see new things.

Yeah, 100%. So, you know, all these steps in the process, I'm thinking to myself, okay, but is leadership really bought in at every single step of the process? Because if they're not, and they're like, yeah, sure, go ahead and iterate, but we know what the end solution is, that could be really dangerous and a huge waste of time, right? So, tell me about how you go about solving for leadership buy-in as a critical piece of the process? And what's the difference between a leader who says they're committed to innovation versus one who actually is?

So you really, really get it because what you've said is so true. Sometimes there is this almost like the ideation session is almost a bit of smoke and mirrors. Like, let's all, you know, let's get a bunch of people involved in the process. And then in fact, the leader has a very specific solution in mind. And you sort of realize that where there's just not this openness and stuff. And that's where I think that, you know, the number one sort of ingredient I would say, or the difference between leaders who say they support innovation and those who actually do, is what happens when things get uncomfortable. So a lot of leaders love innovation in theory. It's very like exciting to talk about like disruption and transformation and breakthrough thinking. These are all quite sexy terms. But real innovation requires ambiguity. So it actually requires, you know, navigating these like areas where there is no certainty. There has to be this tolerance for experimentation and occasional failure, actually like quite a bit of failure. Even when people are putting like the lead ideas into test, I always say like put 10 or 12 into test because some will drop off and that's okay. We can learn from those. But you don't want to say like, this is it. You know, these are the 2 ideas. And if they don't test well, What are you going to do? Like, now you have to backtrack. You've lost a lot of time. So I would say the best innovation leaders that I've witnessed are ones that really do create the psychological safety. And it's in what they say, but it's in what they role model. You just see the difference when they're in an ideation session and people aren't constantly almost like looking at them to monitor, like, is it okay to have this idea? Am I being judged? And they can play just like everyone else because we do like to make our sessions playful. Like, we use Markers. We have some toys around. We have a lot of stuff in the room. You know, we use music. It's very strategic just to get people to kind of like loosen up into their bodies, out of their heads. But they have to feel comfortable. And it's such a shame when— and these are not like toxic leaders. They're actually leaders who often mean really, really well. It's just they want things to go well so badly that they are more rigid than they think. And they're just not allowing that sort of place for the play and exploration and the what-ifs and let's try and maybe a bit of a moonshot on this one. And this one seems more of a sure bet.

Yeah, it feels like we're all so pressed for time these days too, that you like start to see the impatience coming out in the faces of some of the leaders. And, you know, people catch on to that really quickly.

Oh, you can totally tell, like, you know, top of the day, like, yes, whatever. And then the sort of like, you know, phone coming out and then kind of disappearing for longer breaks and then Yeah, just the— okay, like, yeah. And it is such a shame because again, if you think about like one day of devoted, like really in a 12-week or 8-week project, there really are just these like few days where that focus is required, like the hour and a half kickoff meeting, you know, the consumer immersion, the one-day ideation session. It's not a lot of time in the grand scheme of things when you're trying to come up with a $10 to $100 million solution. Right.

Yeah.

But we forget that because we're so— I mean, we are so overloaded.

Yeah.

In Canada, I would say especially what people have on their desks. Like, we used to always say that at P&G. It's like, this role 5 years ago was 6 people, and then like 2 years later, it'd be like, I'm going to solo fill it.

Yeah.

Like, all the time, right?

Yeah, yeah. So, there's a real tension between, you know, the freedom to innovate, but also like providing some guardrails and making sure that, you know, we stay on task and we stay on time. So, how do you coach leaders on finding the balance, and what does it look like when the team gets it right?

Yeah, I think one thing we do try to bring in the mindset kind of training and discussion even at kickoff. So we'll talk about like how we need, you know, how we need everyone to be. And, you know, there's a time for generating ideas. Like the signaling is really important of we're going to be generating for 60% of the day. And then the last 20 or 30% of the day, we're putting on our judgmental kind of multifunctional hats and really critiquing things. So just helping people know where they kind of are in the process. Helping them nurture other people's ideas, knowing that it's okay if you don't love this idea, we're going to have a voting in the end. So versus like debating every idea that doesn't feel right to you, it's just, you nurture it, try to make it better, and then move on to the next idea because we're just generating right now. And then like you said, it is that structure and freedom balance. So I'm sure you've heard before this like idea of creativity loves constraints, and we really, really feel that. So that's a lot of that. The initial setup of what are the boundaries. And sometimes people want to put a lot of stuff in scope and it's like, you know what, like it's actually better sometimes when we have less in scope or we separate those into 2 separate ideation sessions. It's a lot more freeing for people versus ideating on, you know, 3 brands, 3 categories, like all these things in one day. You're just kind of all over the place. It's a bit chaotic. So, and innovation can become chaos really soon. And that's where constantly it's like, this process that in some ways people want or expect to be somewhat playful and different than their ordinary day jobs, but we're still behind the scenes really devising things very intentionally in terms of like, okay, we need to have this before we move to this. We need to get stakeholders aligned here so they're bought in so we don't have to then go backwards. So there's kind of this, again, behind-the-scenes structure to create a feeling of playfulness in the parts that we can.

Sounds great. So I'll give you an opportunity to brag a little bit because you've kind of led this type of process with hundreds of companies. So what's a breakthrough moment that stands out for you in one of your client situations and what made it work?

Yeah, thank you for that. I mean, it's hard sometimes. It's hard to actually when you're in innovation because there's so much you can't talk about because it's—

Right.

Yeah, so secretive. Yeah, I sometimes have to go way back to stuff that's come out in the market. Yeah, that's good. I would say One of my favorite types of projects is, and we've had this a few times, but I'll think of one example where teams have these like big trend decks. So sometimes they've spent, you know, like $100,000, $200,000 on this like macro trend definition or whatever it is. So they've got like all these insights around what the trends are, where the future is headed, but they're just a little bit stuck. Or quite a lot stuck. And it's almost like, oh, where do we go from this? How do we get from this to ideas? And the solve in 90% of the cases is getting, you know, consumers involved. So this is where, you know, talking or being able to witness your consumer or customer. And we've done massive, you know, customer or consumer research plans where we're spending, you know, tens of thousands of dollars. But sometimes where there isn't the budget, it's like, okay, you know what, talk to friends and family. You know, if you're trying to design like a new approach to signing up for a credit card, like actually, you know, talk to people who have recently gone through it or go into a bank yourself and try to apply for a credit card and see how that process actually feels to you. So being in the pain and like just being with consumers and seeing all those things, how people contradict themselves or, you know, where they're saying, oh, this is great, but you can see in their body language that they're tensing up. Like, I just love those moments. Being in consumers' houses where they're like, oh, I'm like super, super healthy. And then at one point we do a cupboard tour and it's just like, you know, candy and chocolate and things everywhere. And they're kind of like, oh, well, but those are my treats, but like only a couple times a day. And so you're like, well, what does health mean? It depends. It's a very personal definition, right? So I would say that. I think too, when you're talking about very emotional categories, like I have done projects on, you know, incontinence or Menopause many, many years ago. Like, I think that was over 10 years ago where we did this perimenopause and menopause project. And these women who we talked to felt so unseen at that point and were— and it was a different time where it wasn't really talked about. And we would have them like actually hugging us as moderators at the end of an interview because— and like crying because they just felt so seen. And of course, then as you're designing solutions for them, it's not your intellectual brain. Like, you're designing from the heart of like, I felt that person's pain when they felt dismissed by their doctor? How do we give them tools to help them talk to their doctor and have those like difficult conversations? So yeah, I've kind of talked about a bunch of different examples, but the consumer stuff just makes me so excited.

Yeah, those are great, great examples. It's so true because even, and we're going to go to HR in a second, but even when you ask employees like how they're feeling, like engagement surveys, all that stuff, there's always a beat that happens in their brain before they actually give their input, right? So if you could See like them in action and actually doing the thing as opposed to asking them how they feel about doing the thing. I mean, that is gold, right? Like you could watch like 10 people do different things and that's like way more valuable than having like 1,000 responses, I would think.

It's so true. And I do wonder now about like surveys, just, it is so tempting for people to use AI.

Yes, totally.

And even if they train their AI to be their voice, it's like, what do you think of this? And so. Being able to really distill that is so, so important now because— Yeah.

Yeah. So I would love to hear from you. Many of our listeners are HR leaders. So 2 things. One, you know, how do you, how do you build the next generation of talent? How do you, how do you bring them in? How do you develop them? How do you coach them to bring out more innovation? And then the second question will be specifically like any tips around HR processes. So let's start with the first one around talent and how to develop.

Yeah. So with talent, so looking new talent to an organization is absolute gold. So, I love, you know, interns, my new hires. They bring these fresh eyes that are such an advantage. And if you, you know, if they either have the self-talk or you even indirectly, like, impose on them, like, you need to learn how things are done around here, you're going to squash that. And it's such a great opportunity. So, like, I think the best question or challenge that a new manager can pose is, I want you to really look at everything. How we do things, whether it's from meetings to our systems, the category, you know, the brands or business we're in. And please, like, make your notes of everything where you're confused, you don't understand, you see a better way. And then, you know, I think it's really, really great when they can speak up and voice that. I think it helps everyone else voice that too, even someone who's been there 10 or 15 years and is like, I haven't liked that process for 10 or 15 years, but I never said anything.

Oh boy, I wish people asked me those questions when I was a junior, honestly.

Yes!

We weren't allowed to say anything. We were meant to, you know, just nod and do the thing.

I remember at one point, and I was like super green, but like giving feedback to my agency and my manager like muted the phone at one point because—

Oh my goodness.

Obviously, like, you know, not saying the right things or not delivering it in the right way. And it was like, you know, just those signals of, oh, right, okay, I've got to learn that things are done here.

Yeah. Wait. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's great advice.

So, and I think that's where I think being tolerant, I mean, obviously someone can't come in and bulldoze everything, but if it's like, we'd love to hear your suggestions, how you think about things, create safe spaces for them to, and time. It's not like the, oh, do you have any ideas?

But I've got— Right, exactly. Yes.

Let's have a spacious hour or lunch together where we just chat about this. I'd love to know your thoughts.

And be open to it.

Easier said than done.

Yes. And, and really being open to it and not promising. I think oftentimes we don't allow that space because we're worried that we won't be able to deliver on whatever information we get from people. So maybe it's as simple as setting up, like, I can't promise that anything's going to change immediately, but I would love to hear your thoughts on how you've experienced this onboarding process or how you've experienced this, you know, customer call. Are there things we could do differently? And really be open to those suggestions because, again, not just does it benefit, like, the business getting better ideas, but it benefits the employees feeling like they have agency very early on in their careers, which is really important.

Totally. And I love that one sentence you used. Because you're exactly right. Like, I remember at one point we were trying different culture-building initiatives. This is years ago. And we were like, you know, we have to be okay with if we start a book club and it kind of fails after a few months and it fizzles, that's not a failure. It's like, okay, that's interesting. There just wasn't energy for a book club.

Right now at this moment or in this iteration. Right.

Good point with these people. But like, it's not this whole like, oh, we always come up with stuff and then we don't do it. It's like just reframing. And, and what you said too, what a great sentence for a leader to say, like, I can't promise that we can address, you know, we definitely can't address all of them at once. We might not even be able to address them, you know, right away. But I'd love to hear, because then it does free you from truly being open.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, I think that's the most important thing for all of us at the beginning of our career or now. It's this natural kind of like default or desire to self-protect, you know, to appear. I mean, this was my big problem early in my career. And I say early, but like the first I don't know, 15 years of my career.

Yeah.

Of just feeling like I have to be right. I have— or like look right. I have to look smart. You know, I have to be efficient. I have to be polished. And so if you're always trying to protect, there's never a chance to say, oh, I messed up.

Yeah. That was wrong.

And people see that, right? And I remember one time where I had someone on my team who kind of like made a mistake or something didn't go quite the way she wanted it to. And when I was talking to her about it, she actually said like, you never fail. You're always perfect. And I was like, oh my gosh, like I fail all the time.

Yeah.

But it's behind the scenes. I don't show them that. And by not showing them that, I'm actually creating like a really dysfunctional culture.

Yeah.

And I had to like really feel that and kind of remember back to, oh, the beginning of my career, I thought no one was failing either. And I thought I was the only one.

Yeah. So let's now parlay that to HR because we are notorious for wanting to look polished and have all the answers. And our process is not up for debate and is not up for, you know, discussion, but there, we know there are a lot of processes out there that just are so ripe for innovation. So, any tips of inspiration, any stories you can tell about an HR process, this, you know, Six I's working in HR, or any, any thoughts on how we can employ this method?

Yeah, well, I would say, I mean, I love like the openness. I think HR is so, so critical to innovation and creating an innovation culture because Because as I said, psychological safety is kind of at, you know, at the foundation. It's human dynamics that impact things. And so, on a structural level, these are bigger things, but really looking at like the reward system, work plans, like what are people measured on? I know through most of my career, the measurements did tend to be like, how much has your business grown? How, you know, what percentage of your initiatives are successful? And so, if there is no tolerance for failure, you're naturally actually not going to have as, as much of an innovation culture as you want, or as your competitors who are actually looking at things a bit of a different way. You know, awards and all those things. I always think back to, again, like 15 years ago when I was working in Switzerland with Procter Gamble, where one of our agency partners was like, you should have a Smartest Failure Award, and it should be presented at the big, like, annual marketing awards. And, you know, it can be recognized and celebrated, and some of the, you know, extracted lessons can be shared with the whole organization, that is going to do wonders for your culture.

Totally.

So looking for those opportunities, right? I think HR being— again, I remember when I first started at P&G, HR was like in— I think— well, I don't want to get this wrong, but I think there was like an HR lead on every team. And so in all of our meetings, HR was there. And over time, I think there was kind of like 1 or 2 HR people for the whole company, right? So that wasn't possible. But I think by being there and being able to witness just some of the unintentional, you know, again, things that are maybe creating some fear or where there's some bias, and then having those open conversations about those would be amazing.

Yeah.

I just want to go back to like, no one— You know, in 99% of cases, it's the nicest people. It's people with the best intentions. It certainly was me many times in my career where you're doing something and you don't even really realize that you're doing it.

Yeah.

And it's just quietly having this impact on things getting out. And also people speaking up. Like, how many times have you had new people on your team and you know they must have like really valuable things to say, or introverts on the team, you know, not all introverts, but some introverts who just like don't tend to speak up as much. And if you're not mining that gold, right?

Yeah.

I mean, they might really be hearing and sensing something because they are sitting back that could be so, so valuable to the conversation. But maybe managers need tools on, you know, what are like some tools or techniques you can use in a meeting to keep the momentum, but to make sure everyone's opinion is heard? Do you get people in small groups and then they go back and share their ideas? Yeah, all that kind of stuff. I think people just need more tools, and people love learning and tend to be, you know, they love self-assessments, like all those things. But how can they be seen as not separate, like an HR exercise or, you know, a team-building exercise? It's like, how do we then integrate that into our most important work?

Yeah, great points. We are getting to the end of our time together, Fiona, so Before we go, how can our listeners find out more about the great work you're doing?

Thank you. Well, I have a website, my name, so fionastevenson.com. I've got a lot of my stuff in there and ways to contact me. And then I have 2 passion projects, which I'm really excited about right now. So one is Open State, and that's openstate.ca. And that is kind of a new experiment that I'm doing with my friend Alyssa Kerbel, where we're kind of looking at how to bring like nervous system regulation and music and movement into the creative process.

Oh, I love that.

So actually, like, getting to— getting teams together and first starting with this, like, joyful, you know, music and movement and really getting out of your head and into your body and then tackling your biggest business problems from there. And then kindnessatwork.com is my other passion project. And we are introducing some inaugural Workplace Kindness Awards and having a ceremony in New York City in Kindness Week in November. So super excited about that. Nominations just opened and I'll be sharing stuff on LinkedIn. LinkedIn, as I said, I'm a huge fan. So, yes, LinkedIn is also a great place to find me.

Fantastic. Wow, you're a busy woman. Amazing, amazing work. And it's been such a delight to catch up with you. What is one thing you're feeling good about today?

Hmm, I think I'm just, I'm kind of excited about this time, I would say. Like, it's, there's a lot going on. It's crazy. I, I don't tend to engage with like the news and stuff too much, but just This AI boom and, you know, the creator culture and like stuff that young people are doing. I just feel like there's so much opportunity and it's, you know, for a futurist or someone who works in innovation, it's really hard to know what the next 2 or 6 or, you know, 12 months will hold because the speed of change is just so fast. So I'm, I'm loving it. I'm excited by it. Sometimes a little scared by it, but—

Yes, that's, that, that, that's perfectly normal. I'm glad that you're on the optimistic side. I am as well. It's been a delight to have you on our show today, Fiona. I'm looking forward to keeping in touch and hopefully seeing you in person soon. And until next time, everyone, take care. Thanks for listening to Foresight. If you enjoyed the episode, we would love to hear from you. Leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts.

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