Better Mattress, Better Sleep in Menopause?

Real quick, before we dive into this episode, I have a little sleep secret I want to tell you about. Look, sleep is crucial for your fitness, but it's crucial for just plain old everyday life and function.

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What are you waiting for?

Good night.

Ask any woman what she wants and it just might be better sleep in menopause. Ask her what her biggest challenges are and she might just say belly fat or energy, but often the underlying reason is poor sleep, whether she knows it or not. Dr. Michael Bruce contributed an expert opinion in the sleep chapter of You Still Got It, Girl! The After 50 Fitness Formula for Women, my book. It was— I I believe it was out in 2015. It's a long time now, right? He was responsible for leading me to what's become not only a group of colleagues, but a group of some of my best and closest friends. I'm Debra Atkinson. You're listening to Flipping 50, where I address your top struggles and concerns, and I share what to eat, how to move, and how to change your mindset so you can have the energy and the vitality that you want, need, and of course that you deserve in this second and better half. I can't wait to do this with you. He's just a fantastic interviewee and he knows what you need to know and we bring it. My guest, Michael Bruce, is a double board certified clinical psychologist in sleep, Clinical sleep specialist. He's only one of 168, let me rephrase that. He is one of only, how much better is that? 168 psychologists in the world to have taken and passed the sleep medicine boards without going to medical school. Dr. Bruce is the author of 4 books with the newest in 2021, Energize: Go from Dragging Ass to Kicking It in 30 Days. I gotta love that. Adds the concepts of movement, not exercise, and intermittent fasting to his already famous sleep chronotypes. And it was recently named one of the top books of 2021 by the Today Show. In his third book, The Power of When, which is a groundbreaking biohacking book proving that there is a perfect time to do everything based on your biological chronotype, whether you're an early bird or night owl. Dr. Bruce gives us the exact time to have sex, to run, to eat a cheeseburger— I'm gonna have to beg, borrow, or steal that one— maybe buy, sell, ask your boss for a raise, and so much more on over 200 research studies that back it up. There's a ton of questions that we ask in this episode, and I know you may have a ton more. Here's a little spoiler alert: he's coming back within the next year. So you can load those up for me in my DMs at Instagram or on Facebook or at the show notes, and I would love to hear from you. Let's dive into this episode. Dr. Michael Breus, thank you so much for joining us.

Oh, well, thanks for having me. You know, I'm always excited to hang out with you.

So of course, you know, every woman here has probably dealt with at least a sleepless night or two, and I don't mean toddlers or dogs, even even snoring husbands. It's now she's dealing with her own menopause is causing its own wrinkles. But I want to ask you something. I— your book Energize especially, I mean, they're all great titles, number one, and great content, but you included the concept of movement, not exercise, in that. And given that one of the taglines of Flipping 50 is less exercise, more movement, I already love that, but tell me more about how you came to include the distinction of movement and exercise and what that means to you.

Well, you know, to be fair, it wasn't like that was the— it wasn't like I was thinking about it in that way. I was working with my friend Stacy Griffith, who's a big trainer up in New York City. She's in part of that SoulCycle, you know, the exercise bicycle classes.

Yep.

She's one of the top trainers there. Actually, I think she was the first trainer there. And we started talking about our patients and I said, I'm fixing people's sleep, but they say they're exhausted. And she said, well, are they moving? And I was like, you mean exercising? And she said, no, are they moving? And I was like, I don't know. I don't really think that's something I really ask a lot about. And she started educating me and then she said, well, my patients are exhausted. And I said, well, are they sleeping? And she said, well, I don't really ask about that. And so we were like, hmm, I think we're, I think we're onto something here. And so the goal was to start to understand the difference between movement and exercise, right? So, and what is the, what are the good that it can do? Because it turns out that very low impact movement can be 75% of what your body needs from a cardio perspective. Now, I'm not saying don't ever go out for a walk, right? I'm not saying don't get your heart rate up. But what I am saying is that movement in and of itself really kind of helps everything. It helps with your joints, it helps with your ligaments, it helps with your muscles. It also helps with your motivation. It's very hard to be motivated when you're sitting in a chair for 8 hours a day, right? Or on your favorite recliner or whatever. And so movement really is something that's always been a part of my life, but I hadn't really thought about it formally until I started to really look at the research and And the research on movement is quite astounding. But basically, if you don't stop moving, you're going to live for a very long time, and you're probably going to live a pretty healthy lifestyle.

So true. So much of that is also ringing true for women with insulin resistance in midlife. You know, the key is maybe more movement and fewer shorter breaks of it, as opposed to one long, you know, 45-minute walk.

Absolutely. And I mean, I think there's, I think that's also a good way to think about it is more is not always better, right? So more movement equals exercise in my mind, right? And so less movement is real movement and you don't have to do it for long periods of time. I mean, literally the way my Energize book works is we have what's called a 5x5 program. So 5 times a day you move for 5 minutes. That's it. So it's 25 minutes. And again, it's not an exercise program. This is merely a program to just kind of wake everything up every, let's say, 2 to 2.5 hours or so. But it really makes a lot of sense. And once you start doing it, it's super addictive.

Yeah, love it. And for your brain too, probably, right? I mean, you're just firing on all cylinders.

Absolutely. And I actually find that I'm doing some of my best learning while I'm moving. So as an example, one of the things that I like to do is I like to listen to books on tape. Actually, it's not tape anymore. I don't know what you'd call it anymore. Gosh, it's dating me, isn't it? I like to listen to audiobooks. There we go. While I'm on the treadmill. And so what I've discovered is, is I can't be at too fast of a pace. Otherwise I can't really, you know, my breathing is louder than the book and, you know, all of that nonsense. So, I found that I've got a pace where I'm fast walking, so I'm getting enough movement, but I'm not going over and I'm still listening to a book. And, you know, I can do that for 15 minutes, then go get a drink of water and then do it for another 15 minutes and go get a drink of water. And it works out great.

I love that. Those little short bites are doable. I think that's probably one of the things that are the biggest piece of resistance for anybody getting started in exercise that may end up helping them sleep is that, I don't have time. I don't have time to do that.

Yes. Yes. Well, that's what I hear. Like, I hear people tell me that they don't have enough time for sleep, much less that they don't have time for movement, right? Because their schedules are so busy and all this nonsense. And so, you have to sit down, you have to really understand people's priorities. And I don't think a lot of people— well, let's be fair. Nobody prioritizes sleep until You don't have it, right? So until you're sleep deprived, you don't really care that much about your sleep. You're like, yeah, I go to that room in the back of the house, I turn off the lights, I close my eyes. 6, 7, 8 hours later, I come out, I feel okay, and I continue with my day. It's almost like this requisite part of your day, like breathing would be, right? But there's some rules to it that you really have to know and understand, right? So I think that when you start to really think through the idea of sleep, most people can structure their day, but they don't have structured nights. What I'm asking people to do is not a lot, but just a little bit of, add a little bit of structure to your evening time, and you'll be shocked at how far along it gets you with your sleep.

Love that. I really wanna dive into something related to your sleep chronotype. So first of all, define that for everybody.

Sure.

So a chronotype. So a lot of people out there may not have heard the term chronotype, but you've actually heard of the concept. If anybody out there has ever been called an early riser, early bird or a night owl, those are chronotypes. So these are genetic predetermined sleep schedules that we all have built into our DNA. Believe it or not, you can— if you sent me, Debra, if you sent me your 23andMe or your ancestry.com, I could actually show you where on your genome it would tell us exactly what kind of sleeper you are. It would even tell us how long you need to sleep. It would tell us the quality of your sleep. You'd be surprised how much information is kind of on there. But this, a chronotype is your genetically predetermined sleep schedule. Now I want to be clear, it sticks, but it doesn't stick when you think it would. So as an example, all babies are early birds. I call them lions. All babies are early birds, right? They go to bed early, they wake up early. Then when you're a toddler into middle school, you're in the middle, what we used to call a hummingbird, what I call a bear., right? Get up around 7:30, go to bed around 7:30. Life is pretty good. Or you're a night owl. That's usually when you're an adolescent. So 12, 13, 14 years old. What do you wanna do? Wanna stay up until 12 and sleep until 2, right? That's, that's at least what I wanted to do when I was 12, 13 years old. Then when you hit like age 25 or so, your chronotype seems to lock into place for about 30 years. Until you're about 50, 55 years old when melatonin production begins to change and then it starts to go backwards a little. So anybody out there who ever called up their grandparents or their parents and said, hey, let's all go out to dinner. And they say, yeah, we'll meet you at 5:00. And you're like, why are we having dinner so early? It's because their melatonin is marching backwards and that's when they're hungry. And so chronotypes are this idea of hormone distribution, specifically melatonin, at very particular times, and it seems to stick with people for extended periods of time.

So is that something you want to try to override or you want to try to honor?

No, no, no, no, no. You want to honor this. Here's the deal is I believe, well, let me back up. 8 hours is a myth. All right, I want to be super clear about this. 8 hours is, it's not a made-up number, but it's not what everybody needs to get. However, I think that the reason that we have 8 hours of sleep is because what we're really trying to do is get 6.5 to 7 hours within our chronotype. And so we're giving ourselves a little bit of leeway on either end, if you will. Got it. So what I tell people all the time is, if it's possible, try to do what your chronotype does. You would be pleasantly surprised. And that's kind of how this whole thing started. Now, somebody out there is going to be like, well, I'm a night owl and I don't want to get up until 8:30, and my boss or my wife or my husband or my partner says, hey, that isn't kosher, what do you do? So the first thing you do is you educate them and you say, I have this genetic thing, it's called night owl, and that's how I am. And if you want me to perform better, you will be surprised if you just give me a little bit of flexibility in my hours and you say, let's run the experiment. So this is exactly what I did when I wrote my third book, The Power of When. Is I had a patient who came in who I couldn't figure her out. And she said something to me that I thought was really interesting. She said, Michael, if I could just live in a different time zone, everything would work perfectly. And I'm like, this is when I was practicing in Georgia. And she said, if I could live in California, it would be great because 7:00 there in the morning is 10:00 here in the morning. And that would be just about perfect for me. And I said, well, your body adapts based on light cues and things like that. So I think moving to Cali is probably out. I said, but we need to start to figure out sort of how this works for you. And once we were able to, we discovered that she was what I call a dolphin. So this is the fourth chronotype. She has high anxiety. So she was a lot like an early bird, but just with just enough anxiety to throw her over the edge. A little bit of OCD is what I see in a lot of these patients. And so what ends up happening is they're highly anxious. Really intelligent, fast talkers. They're a lot like leaders. They're a lot like lions or my early birds, but they just have just enough anxiety to kind of throw them over the edge.

Huh. Wow.

That's fascinating. Yeah, it's, it's really pretty bizarre. If people out there want to learn what their chronotype is, if you go to chronoquiz.com, you can take it. It's free. It takes about 3 minutes, and then we'll send you information and we teach you the best time of day to drink coffee, the best time of day to go to sleep. I mean, honestly, I can teach people.

That is awesome.

Okay.

It's nuts. We've got that. We've got that. So, best time of day for sex. Yep. And you say best time of day to eat a hamburger? Yep. Okay. All right. Love it. How much is that going to change, like when we're in our 80s and 90s?

Then what? So, it changes, but it only changes based on your melatonin production and the timing. So, what ends up happening is, let's say that you were a night owl for most of your life, and then you hit age 55, you could either become an in-between or an early bird. And then you just still follow the same rules, you just adjust for the time difference. And we show you how to do that in the book.

I love that. All right. So, thechronoquiz.com, we're going to put that in the show notes links too because everybody is going to be walking right now. I just— yep.

Okay.

And I love that to learn more about, you know, how you can modify your schedule. And yeah, you were talking about that. Here's where my mind went. So let's say we've got a woman out here, and, and most of them are menopause or beyond. Yep. And they're going through all those fluctuations. And if, if not hormonal fluctuations, it's midlife chaos no matter what. What if we've got a woman who, you know, she is actually fighting her chronosystem and she has been maybe much of her working life, and she has to get up, she's got to commute, she's getting up really early, but that's totally against her chronotype. What is that doing to her health?

So it's a great question. Um, the body is very resilient, and so while it's not doing her any favors, it's probably not damaging her all that much. However, If she has any medical frailty, then it's gonna make it worse. So if she has asthma, her asthma's gonna be worse. If she has lowered immune function, then immune function's gonna be worse. If she has high blood pressure, then her high blood pressure's gonna be worse. On the mental health side of things, I think that's where we really see more damage really being done. Depression absolutely gets worse. Anxiety absolutely gets worse. Anger control issues definitely get worse. And so what ends up happening is when you're forcing somebody to wake up at a time when their body, not their brain, mind you, but their body doesn't want to be up, the, the, the body has all kinds of ways of, you know, making that really difficult for you. And so if I've got somebody who's going through the throes of menopause, let's say they're a night owl and they have to be on the road by 6:30 every morning, that's going to be tough. What I would recommend in that situation is number 1, let me talk to your boss so I can educate your boss on what is the situation. Number 2, can you take it during your lunch hour? Can you split it in half and take half of it and take a nap? Because that's what I would do is I would have a safe place where my employees could go. And if they want to close their eyes for 20, 25 minutes and, you know, set an alarm and then wake back up, splash a little water on your face and go back to work. I got no problems with something like that. That would be one potential solution. Because what ends up— here's the problem is going to bed earlier isn't going to work, right? Because she's a night owl. And so when you're a night owl, it doesn't— it's not going to work too well going to bed early because your body isn't ready to go to bed early. So I would say take that nap no later than probably 2:30, 3:00, right? And then you should be in pretty good shape. I would also avoid caffeine in most of the day, like anytime after noon, because what's going to happen is if she's a night owl and she's dragging it in the morning, she's going to drink 4 or 5 cups of coffee. Before you know it, she's got 200-300 milligrams of caffeine on board, and that can make it very difficult for her to fall asleep that night. So you end up in this kind of washing machine, perpetual negative feedback loop. So I would say she can nap. She would probably need to lower her caffeine. And I would personally recommend exercise right after work. The reason I would recommend exercise right after work is, especially for my early birds, not so much for everybody else, but for the people who are being forced to wake up early, exercise can give you some energy. And so if we know she's a night owl anyway, she's gonna do better exercising in the evening anyway. I'd have her, you know, after work, go straight to the gym, hydrate, workout, go home, and then have a, a good protein-rich, low-carbohydrate dinner, something that's kind of sleep-friendly. So fish, anything with omegas in it, anything with magnesium in it. So kale, salads, leafy greens, legumes, all that kind of stuff is all very good for sleep.

So good.

Okay.

This is a question that comes up frequently. Well, actually, I want to come back to something you said. 8 hours is the myth, and I want to just clarify. So we've also kind of dripped in here, maybe, you know, that's so we can get 6.5 or so hours. Do some people need more though? Do you find some people are needing 9?

Great question. So 9 is kind of my upper level limit. When somebody tells me that they need more than 9 hours of sleep, I'm wondering if they have a sleep disorder. I'm wondering about the quality of their sleep. You know, when we think about sleep, usually we just think about it as quantity, right? So how many hours, how many minutes do you get? But it really doesn't matter. What matters is the quality of the sleep that you're getting. And so if somebody says to me, Michael, I need 10 hours of sleep every night, I'm going to bring them to the lab and I want to figure out why, because normal humans don't need 10 hours of sleep. They just don't. Now, if she has narcolepsy, then maybe she does. If she has depression, then maybe she does. So like, those would be, those would be big warning signs to me, but I would say the upper level limit is probably 9 hours.

Okay, great. Glad we answered that. This question comes up, I'm asked sometimes, and I'm like, I'm not your expert for this. How do, how do listeners pick a best mattress? And, and if they're sharing that mattress with a partner, what kind of things need to factor in there?

So this is, you know, I, I feel like I've saved more marriages as a sleep specialist than I ever would have as a marital therapist for a couple of different reasons. One is mattresses for sure. And when you look at mattresses, there's a couple of things that people have to think about, right? So number one, soft or firm, and people have very different needs, right? So let's say you have a 120-pound person with a 240-pound person, right? The structural needs for the mattress itself are going to be different just purely based on their weight. So a lot of times I'm looking at mattresses that have zones in them, so they have different type of support levels for different types of people. Sometimes you look at mattresses based on position. So there are special mattresses that are specific for side sleepers versus back sleepers. Sometimes there you need a mattress for somebody who's quite large. So somebody who's 250-plus pounds, that's going to require different support characteristics. So what we did was if people wander over to thesleepdoctor.com, I've done reviews now on about 120 or so, I think, different mattresses, pillows, sheets, those kind of products. And we brought them into the lab, we tested them. So you really get a good understanding of like, what is the material you're getting? What effect does it have on your sleep? Those types of things. And so I would recommend that people, number one, do your homework. Go out and get reviews, get reviews on mattresses. Many mattresses are no longer sold in stores. They're all shipped to people's homes because during COVID basically nobody went into mattress stores anymore. The good news for everybody out there is almost every one of these programs has at least a 90-day, if not longer, return policy. Some of these companies will let you sleep on their product for a year. And you can still return it if you don't like it. So I always recommend to people to, you know, don't rule out online purchases. I actually have, we have two beds that we bought online here at the house. So, you know, I think that it can be very confusing and overwhelming. So we try to take a lot of that out by doing the reviews for people.

Super helpful. Yeah, and great. And we'll put a link to that in the show notes as well. That is so good. Okay. So, let me ask you a question. Fire away. You actually, in the green room, told me you had just been at the gym doing a presentation. So, I know you have a gym. What do you do for exercise and what time of day do you do it?

So, this is interesting. So, I have a very regimented morning because I used to be a night owl. And now that I've turned 55, I'm starting to get up earlier and earlier and earlier. Now, some— now my summer got thrown off because my daughter is home from college and she doesn't like to drive in downtown traffic. And so every morning we leave the house by 6:30 and I get her to work at 7:15 and then I hit the gym at 7:30. Normally that's not my normal routine because she goes to college. Normally I get up between 5:45 and 6 and I have 2 dogs and they both— one of them requires medication. So I give my dog his medication and we have to wait about 10 minutes to feed him. So then I feed them. Then I throw on my gym clothes. I take the dogs for a quick spin around the block. And when I walk back through the door, I sit on the ground with them and I play with them for 5 minutes every single morning. It's good for them and it's good for me. Nothing wrong with a little unconditional love, right?

Every morning. I'm naming my new puppy Oxytocin. Yes.

There you go. Exactly. And then from there, I usually leave the house by about, oh, I'd say 7:00, 7:10. I'm at the gym by 7:25, and then I do a very minor cardiac workout. So, I do 10 minutes on the treadmill to warm myself up, then 500 meters on the rower. And then, I have a trainer and he created a multiple body routine, multiple, not multiple body, multiple body part routine. I used to be a guy who I would do chest, bis and tris or back and legs and traps or whatever. And, number one, it was boring, but number two, I really wasn't getting the shape to my body that I was looking for. And so, now I do these more complicated moves, moves that require balance, moves that require multiple thighs, core, and arms, that kind of stuff. I'm usually doing that for about 60 minutes. Then I hit the sauna. I'm in the sauna for between 18 and 22 minutes. I can't really take it for much longer than that. Then I hop in the shower. The last minute of my shower is as cold as I can take it. And then I'm behind my desk usually by 9:30, 10 o'clock, and then my day starts.

Wow.

You are not kidding. You are very regimented.

I am very regimented. And on the mornings when I'm— I was— yeah, a lot. And on the mornings when I'm feeling like a little off, I usually put a 10 to 20 minute meditation in before I walk the dogs. And so I sit on the floor in our den because I can see out of our balcony. And one of my dogs likes to crawl into my lap while I meditate. And so he kind of falls asleep in my lap while I'm meditating. The other one's right next to me. So sometimes there's a little bit of variation.

You know, I would consider myself a morning person, always have been. And then I went to a Dr. Joe Dispenza event, and you know, when he said, yeah, we're starting at 4, I said, I'm not that kind of a morning person. Are you kidding me? Yeah, I like my coffee at that point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, very few people are. And I mean, to be fair, I'm not a morning person either, but literally once I hit 52, 53, I started to wake up earlier and earlier and earlier. And now at 55 I'm waking up at between 5:45 and 6:00 almost every single day.

And I don't know about mine, but— America is waiting to find out that what time do you want to be asleep?

So for me personally, it just kind of depends upon what's been going on that day and my nighttime. You notice I don't have as set a schedule for my bedtime. I do have a very set schedule for my wake-up time, and I'll explain why in just a second. But for my bedtime, I can go to bed anywhere. I start watching TV on the couch. My wife likes to watch in the bedroom because she watches shows that she likes. And then I watch shows that I like. I usually wander back into the bedroom somewhere between 10:30 and 11, and she's either fallen asleep with the TV on and the dog's in the bed, or she hasn't. And we chitchat and then go to sleep around 11, 11:30, something like that.

Got it. Okay, this has been so good, and I'm— there's so much great information here. I'm going to ask you one probably toughest question, but sure, easy for me. We're talking to women between 45 and 70, and they want, they want a second half that's as good or better than their first half, right? What question should I have asked you?

That is an interesting question. What question should you have asked me for second half of life? I think, well, there's a couple of things that kind of come up. Number one, the question you probably could have asked me is how does our sleep change over our lifespan and is it different for women than it is for men? And the answer is yes, it is different for men than it is for women. So let's talk about that for just a second. So as we age, the strength of our sleep begins to fade. So just like our muscles are stronger when we're younger than when we're older, the same holds true with our brainwaves. And so right around age 50 or so, the amplitude or the strength of the brainwave begins to slow down. It gets smaller. We even have to change the scoring criteria when we're scoring people for sleep studies at that point in time. Also, if you're hitting this age range, You definitely want to talk with your doctor about having a sleep test. More women have sleep apnea than they realize. Most women think it could be insomnia, but in fact, when women come to sleep clinics, they talk about insomnia, but in something like 60% of the cases, they actually have a mild case of sleep apnea. Once you cross that menopausal kind of energy gap, that life change that seems to occur, then we see that the incidence of apnea goes from 2 men for every 1 woman to 1 to 1. So we know that happens there as well. And then there's all this crazy hormonal stuff that is going to occur post-menopause or during menopause. And the good news is, is it doesn't last forever. I've written quite a few articles on this if people wanna swing over to thesleepdoctor.com and just type in, in the search bar, menopause. You'll really see some, some things in there that I think you'll find interesting. But I would like to give everybody a little fun night sweat hack if I could. Yes, please.

Okay.

So this is gonna sound a little weird, but it actually works. So what you do is you take a plastic water bottle, you know, like the kind that you get at the store. Yeah. And you throw it in the freezer, take two of them, actually throw them in the freezer till they freeze completely. Then take a pair of tube socks, you know, like athletic socks, and wrap it around the bottle. Just put the bottle inside it, frozen inside the tube sock. Okay. Then take one of each of them and put it on the outside of your hips and go to sleep. It's like having your own little mini air conditioner.

Oh my God. That was worth the price of admission. See? Thank you so much.

Try it out. It works so, so well. The socks are so that the, you know how the, the, um, the moisture kind of gets on the outside of the bottle and you don't wanna have a, you know, a, a wet bottle in the bed. So that's what the sock is for. Um, but it works really well. And when you wake up in the morning, if you're, if the water's already melted, then you have your morning hydration.

Beautiful. Yes. Oh my gosh. Brilliant. Thank you so much for this Tip Rich podcast about a topic that is really the number one pillar for almost anybody here. Anybody who comes to me for fitness knows without this, we're not going to do a lot of good.

So it's, it's interesting. There's really 3 things that if you can't do those 3 things well, nothing falls well into place. And that's sleep, hydration, and breathing. I think once you get those 3 things down, everything else is possible.

Beautiful. I love it. All right. And let's say it again, the website or best place to connect with you on social.

Sure. So I have the same name on social that is the website, which is The Sleep Doctor. So just put it into Facebook or Twitter or TikTok. I actually have TikTok videos, believe it or not, and all that kind of fun stuff. Or swing by the website. You can even take the Chrono Quiz there, or you can go to chronoquiz.com.

So good. Dr. Michael Baroofs, thank you so much for being here. And to everyone who probably wishes they too could be here and ask questions, you can let me know what I didn't ask if you'd like to. You can leave me that at flipping50.com/bettersleepinmenopause. And what are you waiting for? Let's start Flipping 50 today.