How and Why to Consider Meditation in Menopause

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What are you waiting for? Good night. Does it feel like you're hearing about meditation every way that you turn, including here as I've told my own story? Well, we're going to dive a little bit deeper into it, a little more about what it is, how it can help, and why menopause might be the exact right time to give it a try.

I'm Debra Atkinson, and you're listening to Flipping 50. I started this podcast over a decade ago to answer questions about fitness and menopause and beyond before you know to ask them. The goal: to help accelerate your results with the science and the practical application of proven protocols while living your best life. There's no more powerful health influencer in the world than a midlife woman.

It's not just you, but it's the 3 generations that you influence.

My unique 40-year career, including being a university senior lecturer in kinesiology, an industry subject matter expert, an international speaker, to founder of the first and the only exclusively made-for-menopause-and-beyond fitness membership in the world. Every week I interview experts behind the science of optimal hormone-balancing fitness and longevity and share answers to our community's questions so you can have the vitality and the energy you want, need, and deserve.

Meditation in menopause or beyond can be a simple, free, and almost effortless tool for supporting your nervous system. If your rest and digest part of life needs to be flexed and able to squelch your fight or flight, AKA your watch says relax reminder, more than you'd like to, this is your episode. Look, very recently I've shared some stories about my experience in November of 2024 at a second of mine week-long retreat with Joe Dispenza. And Dr. Joe's work is also being really published and talked about wider and wider as he's, he's running so many week-long retreats, 10-day retreats, follow-up retreats. Streets around the globe and around the year that is penetrating more and more people. You may be wondering, even if before you've fleshed it or tried it and can't come to it— I didn't start meditating until I was 58, and once I did, I've never looked back. And it doesn't mean I meditate every day. It means I think about meditating every day, and I know when I absolutely need to get myself back. But I think you're gonna enjoy this. My guest today is Kelly Smith, a global yoga and meditation teacher, author. She's a 500-hour registered yoga teacher. She's founder of Yoga for You and the host of the iTunes chart-topping podcast Mindful in Minutes and Meditation Mama, and you're gonna wanna go and check them out. You'll hear why in the episode. Kelly believes there's not a one-size-fits-all approach to yoga and meditation, and she encourages her students to find their own personal practice, listen to their bodies, and find inner joy by accessing their most authentic selves. Kelly's best known for her guided meditation, yoga nidra, and restorative yoga practices that she's been sharing since 2016 on her podcasts and books. Can't wait to dive into this one with you. Kelly Smith, welcome.

Hello, how are you doing?

I'm well. And we should say, I wanted to say welcome back, but officially this is your first— this is your debut on Flipping 50. You've been here She Means Fitness Business. So to all my pros out there who are health coaches, fitness professionals who are also working with women in midlife, you may want to head on over there to She Means Fitness Business. And that one lives at Fitness Marketing Academy, and we actually are targeting females in midlife who are helping females in midlife. It's very meta, but we did a great episode. And, you know, diving in further to what you want to do, you know, it was kind of Shame on me for not bringing you over and sharing you here, especially in light of the coincidence of my fairly recent meditation experience. Let's first unpack all of this. So how would you describe meditation as a tool to help women in midlife, specifically, you know, menopause, going through the throes maybe of peri or post-menopause?

There's two things that I think are especially important when we're thinking about that particular stage of life and meditation. The first is I encourage everyone listening to think about meditation as resistance training for your brain. So just like we know in, I mean, all stages of life, but particularly those stages of life, resistance training, focusing on strength, on stability, on building up that functional movement is so important for our bodies. And meditation is that for the brain. So if you think about your mind as a light bulb, when you're walking around living your life, taking the kids to school, working, whatever it is, that light bulb is on, it's shining in all directions. When we're meditating, we're turning our light bulb into a laser pointer and we're pointing that laser at just one thing. We are training our brain to be able to focus on just one thing. We're also getting these great mental benefits. Again, thinking about this as resistance training for the brain, we are going to, with meditation, quiet down the amygdala, which is the part of the brain that kicks off anxiety, fear, depression, gets in the way of our sleep. And we are getting a stronger prefrontal cortex, which helps with like focus, concentration, reducing that mental fog and helping with some of the executive functioning that we need in our brain. So really think about it as like strength and resistance training for your brain.

Such a great quote. Resistance training for your brain. I love that description, and the analogy is so easy, you know. And with that, we're going to segue on that one to my recent experience. But before we do make it all about me, let's talk about you. And I mean, you, you are like a global yoga and meditation teacher. I'm just gonna guess, and I could be way wrong, that the yoga came first and meditation second. Would that be true? And how did you get into this space?

Um, how did you know that that was my order? You know, yes, I did start with the yoga, and I started quite young. So there are a few different factors. One, I was young. My first yoga class, my mom had to drive me to because I couldn't even drive yet. And I was also there as cross-training for my sports. I was an athlete. I was in yoga for a purpose. That was to, you know, get my stretch in. I knew that yoga would help reduce injuries and increase my stability. And that's where I started. And then life gave me some curveballs, um, like that same mom who I love dearly, who is still with us, she was diagnosed with stage 3 breast cancer when I was 16. And I started to— anyone who's a caregiver out there, current, you know, past, you know what it's like to be a caregiver. I was one of my mom's primary caregivers at that time. And you have to— you can't care for someone else unless you're on your own life raft, is something that I've learned. And I didn't know it at the time, but some of the things I was doing to help cope and deal with that stage of life was mindfulness and meditation. And that really opened my eyes to some of the softer sides of yoga, because meditation is one of the limbs of yoga. As is asanas, or the poses. And it just opened my eyes to how— I mean holistic in the terms of like whole person, whole body, like how holistic the practice of yoga could be and how helpful it could be, including meditation. So, um, I didn't do much with it for quite a while. I continued to really pursue yoga. And then when I was hearing from some of my students that this was something they wanted to learn about, maybe their doctor said it'd be good for their blood pressure, um, or their anxiety, or they wanted to learn how to do it, I was like, I can't really teach something I haven't done. And that's when I really started to embark on this journey of learning everything I can about meditation, trying all these different styles of meditation. I always say I like to go do the deep dives, take the vows of silence, live with the monks, and then bring it back and give it to you in digestible bits so you don't have to do that. And that kind of is where— I don't know, that's what brought me here.

Very cool. Wow. And not very cool, I guess, that you've got your initiation in the way that you did. But, you know, the wisdom of that gift now is that you got it at a very young age and you've been able to apply it, you know, for so many others and a benefit. And thank goodness she's still here.

So yes, yes, we love Mama Smith around here. She's great. Grandma now.

That's so cool. So cool. Okay, so Let's talk a little bit about the increase in anxiety, the increase in depression, and the increase of just the spinning plates that occurs in midlife. And it doesn't matter really if you're in your late 30s or your early 40s and you're entering this whole thing, or you're, you know, late 50s, early 60s, and beyond, because it's postmenopause is till death do us part, of course. But, you know, A lot of women might— and we can use the word— resist meditation and sometimes yoga. And I'm going to throw this out there right away, upfront and early, so that anybody with us who is resistant might stay with us. But I often still get— and I'm still surprised, taken aback by it— that there are women who don't want to practice yoga because it it feels like it's interference with their religion.

Yes, thank you for bringing this up, Kelly. Yeah, thank you for bringing this up, Debra. This is something I love to talk about. The part of my story I left out is when I said my students were asking more about meditation, these are my students— the first yoga studio, I've only owned one yoga studio, but the one when I opened it up It was in a one-bar, one-Walmart town of Missouri. So I will let everyone listening imagine how many times I heard the feedback. One being, I was at the public library there and I was teaching like a kid, like a free kids yoga class, and I brought a book. It was Peaceful Piggy Meditation. Remember the librarian telling me I couldn't use that book in my class because it would upset the parents because it had the word meditation in it. And that was actually the first time that I was— I was newer to the area. We moved from Minneapolis Minneapolis for my husband's job. And that's when I was like, huh? And I was so confused. I was like, wait, tell me more, help me understand. And this was the first time that I was introduced to— and this is my own kind of, you know, ignorance, like blinders, moving from, you know, Minneapolis to now living in, you know, rural Missouri. And where I've landed on all this, what I tell my students if someone comes to me— and they do, they did then and they still do to this day— people will tell me this. The first thing I tell them is, if you truly feel uncomfortable with something don't do it. Like, trust that. I'm gonna, you know, in a moment tell you all the reasons why I don't think meditation and yoga are necessarily against your religion. But if you feel like in your core it's not right for you, then don't do it. So I'm going to give you that permission. As what did you say? Early, early— I'm going to tell you, you know, quickly and early on or something. You recently said so. So quickly and early on, I'm just going to tell you, if deep down in the essence of your being you're like, yoga and meditation do not align with me as an individual, okay, then you don't have to do it. With that being said, let me tell you why I do not feel that as someone who was raised Christian, went to like a Catholic school when I was younger. To me, meditation, just like I said Resistance training for your brain. It is turning your light bulb from on and shining to a laser. To meditate, that is a verb. You choose where you point that laser. No one is going to tell you— they shouldn't tell you— that you have to point that laser at a different religion, a different deity. Meditation itself, if you go back and look at the history, does have roots in non- Christian communities, and that is because it's older than Christianity. This idea of single-pointed concentration goes back well beyond— if I'm assuming we're talking about Christianity, but maybe not— meditation itself is so old. That's why, that's why you see it referenced in other communities, in other faiths. Also, we didn't you know, we used to be pretty homogeneous in terms of our communities usually practicing the same faith, so there wasn't as much of a separation between religion and like, you know, our rules and our community rules and things like that. They were very much intertwined. But to me, to meditate is this verb. It is a thing that you do, and you choose what you put your, your laser at. It could be your breath, it could be a body scan, it could be a visualization, it could be positive affirmations you're telling yourself. You could choose to take laser and to point it in your devotional practice. I have many students where they look at prayer and meditation as the same thing. Prayer is pointing their laser at their time, at their devotional time. You can absolutely choose to do that, but you get to decide if you want to make meditation a religious practice or not. But it in and of itself, separate it— to meditate, not a religious practice. To do shapes with your body to do a down dog. Yoga is so much more than that, but to do a down dog, that is not a religious practice. It's up to you what your intention is and what you want to infuse into that practice that decides whether or not it's in alignment with what you believe. Yes, my two cents. But what do you think?

So, so well said. Yeah, I, I— it saddens me, I think, most of all when I hear that somebody is just taking it off the table. And not, not often I don't get a good answer. I simply get that potentially someone has been conditioned by another entity that this is not compatible with what we do, and, and they don't necessarily have a good reason, which I'm sure is also frustrating for the individual. So But it saddens me that someone is robbed of the benefits of just— I think we can say to anybody, stretch, you know, and go stretch. But when you have the structure and the, the blueprint for something, it is so much easier, right? And we can, again, we can give you images and say, I want you to do this hamstring stretch, and I want you to do, you know, this stretch for your hip flexors, and that, that also is structure. But I do think that there is something to the ritual, to the sequence, because yoga has such an intelligence that it's like, is it any wonder that we continue to come back to it, you know, as a, like, a cyclical thing? I mean, when it came back, and I would say, what, you know, 15, 20 years ago, it really kind of came back hard, and it's, it stuck. Right? It's, it's here and, and stayed. But I'm— you, you described this so, so very well. So I hope that helps anybody listening who still is having some resistance to it, or maybe wants to stick with us and have a little bit more open mind. And what you said about many people equate meditation with prayer, it drives me to a close friend of mine who, you know, she's an adventure seeker with me. We've gone to the Grand Canyon and hiked Rim to River to Rim. And, you know, she's somebody that, you know, I do things with. And I've gone to a week-long Joe Dispenza retreat, and I'm like, I would love for you to come to this next one with me. And I'm like, do you meditate? Because we'd never really talked about it. She's like, well, I pray. That was her answer. And, and, you know, I like— I think you would really like this, you know. And, and for so many reasons, right? The anxiety, the the lots of things going on in your head. She's an overachiever. You know, go figure that I would befriend somebody like that.

I don't know why, but, um, you never would know.

No, no. So talk a little bit about starting at this age. And, you know, like someone else might be listening and saying, you know, is it too late for me to start strength training? You know, another individual might say, well, I've never done that before. I, I don't know where to start. I'm just gonna inject before you start that it might be one of the best times to start. But talk to me, talk to me about why start now and how to start now.

So it is never too late, ever. The best time to start meditating— this sounds cliché, but it's truly like today. That's the best. Just like, when's the best time to start moving your body? Like like, right now, immediately, you know, move your body a little bit. And I think at this particular age, at this stage of life, there's also a component of— there's a lot of changes happening in our brain right now. You're going to hear us talk a lot about the body and the brain today, but there's a lot of changes that are happening in your brain, hormonal changes. There's so much going on in in you right now, that if you're kind of a why person or you need a what's in it for me person, I do not begrudge you at all if you're that type of person. I'm a why person. I have a 4-year-old at home who's also— he's a why kid. I have to tell him, I can't just say, please don't do that, that's not safe. I have to explain to him why it's not safe. So at this stage of life, whether you're perimenopausal, menopause, you know, postmenopausal, there's so many changes that are happening in your brain and in your body. And studies have shown that meditation can actually help to alleviate a lot of those symptoms. Reducing anxiety, reducing depression, help with the brain fog. It can help balance out your cortisol. And Debra, I know you can speak to this better than I can in terms of like cortisol and all of that happening. And it also helps you to boost your ability to focus and concentrate on something. So if you feel like you're getting forgetful, if you feel like— I don't really— I feel like I'm losing my mind is what I hear sometimes. I feel like I'm just like, my brain is out to lunch. Meditation can help with that, can help with your sleep. And when you work on some of that hormonal stuff, can also help with some of the hot flashes. So if you're a, a Y person, if any of those things apply to you— also great for high blood pressure if that applies to anyone, um, can help reverse the aging of our brains on like a cellular level— if any of those things apply to you, meditation can help. And Studies tell us 8 minutes a day is enough to get the physical, mental, emotional benefits of meditation. That's the other piece too, that emotion piece, because, you know, you might feel like you're on an emotional roller coaster right now. And although meditation might be able to help level that out a little bit, it's also going to help teach you how to be able to sit with those feelings and be able to sit and kind of parse through what's actually happening in my heart right now, which I think is a benefit that we don't always talk about because it's not super scientific, but teaching like intentional introspection, being able to sit with whatever is happening within you and around you, is a really important life skill to have. And that's something as well that I think can be so great with starting a meditation practice. And you only need those few minutes a day. So that's the why. Do you have anything to add before I talk about the how?

You know, I love so much of what you've said there, and I mean, anxiety, depression, you know, and just calming down. I don't know how many of you also experience this, but we're all, we're all wearing these little things that talk to us more than they should, you know. And, and I really hate this nasty little bitch when she says, relax reminder, relax reminder. I mean, there's no irony in what I just said either. They're just— but seriously, And so we all know we need it, and I am usually like, mind your own business, you know.

I just— mine goes, time to stretch your legs a little bit. And I'm like, okay, I know I've been sitting here working for a while.

Thank you. Yeah. Oh, you are so nice. I am so not.

There's that.

Okay, this is why we have you here. But talk about this nervous system, and I think Everybody here is intellectually processing when I say nervous system, it calms your nervous system. Can you just unpack that a little bit? Because I think we may be easily able to gloss over it. And what does that truly mean to support our nervous system? Do you have a question for a podcast, a question you'd love to ask, or maybe a story you want to tell.

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Yeah, so our nervous system is a part of the bigger picture of like the functioning of our body and our mind, the way that we take in sensory information, different functions in our body. So most of us are probably familiar with this idea of fight or flight and rest and digest, right? So we kind of have this like autonomic nervous system. We have the, we have the parasympathetic nervous system, the sympathetic nervous system. These are all like the technical terms to say fight or flight, rest and digest. We chronically find ourselves in fight or flight. This is where the amygdala, the part of the brain that is the fear, pain, worry, anxiety center of the brain— it's a very important part of the brain. Fight or flight gets a bad rap. It is important that we have this fight or flight mechanism or part of our nervous system. It is a nervous system component. It is important we have this because if you're going out, you're hiking, and all of a sudden a bear crosses your path, your brain needs to go, oh, danger, I need to be ready to run away or fight the bear. So I'm going to do things like jack up my heart rate because I might need to run away really fast. You get butterflies in your stomach because the blood flow is actually moving away from your internal organs and going to your extremities in case you need to, like, you know, fight the bear, maybe use your legs to run really fast. Your pupils will dilate, and you'll start breathing faster to prepare for this big exertion, right? So it's important that we have this fight or flight. The problem is our brains take any, quote, perceived stressor or threat, and it will interpret it the same way. So watch something distressing on the news, if we think about something upsetting, if we— the example I use, because this one, you know, my former life when I worked a quote real job, um, when your boss says, you know, can we put some time on the calendar to meet or whatever, do you have a few minutes this afternoon to talk? And you're like, I'm getting fired, what's happening, what do you want to talk about? Our brains take that same information and interpret it as the bear. And it goes, oh, fight or flight. Okay, prepare, prepare to protect yourself, prepare to fight. And our amygdala over time will actually get bigger and faster because our brains can change— this idea of neuroplasticity— they can change over time. So our amygdala goes, wow, there's a lot of danger out here. I need to be ready to activate and fire at any moment, and I need that response to be big. So that's one piece, that fight or flight. Then we have the rest and digest, which is the other side. That is where, you know, you're, you're hanging out in bed, you have your fuzzy socks on, you're, you know, laying back and reading a novel, and you're just feeling like, you know, maybe your stomach is making all of those noises. Anyone who goes to yoga, and sometimes they'll say like, when I go to Shavasana, like, why is my stomach so loud? So the opposite is happening. All that blood flow is going to your internal organs, helping you with things like digestion. Also in rest, that's when like a lot of our hormones either get replenished or working on, you know, balancing out some of our hormone levels. We do not spend enough time in rest and digest, and we spend too much time in this fight or flight. So when we're talking about, quote, the nervous system, we're talking about the umbrella that these things fall underneath because our nervous system is what is like responding to these different stimuli on like both sides of the spectrum and everywhere in between. Your nervous system, you know, responses to things, like when you hear a sudden loud noise, you jump and you're like, ah, and it takes you a while to kind of, you know, come down. All of that is your nervous system, and meditation can really help to support that holistically.

Love that. And, and I love that we could, we could flip this to the opposite and say, okay, if the brain responds to, you know, a murder mystery or to terrible news on CNN, you know, in the same way as something really tragic happening in real life, then it also doesn't know the difference between you, say, meditating and focusing on something good, right? And, and that, you know, is the whole point of— if I wanted to, I can focus on something good and puppies or kitties or, or a future that I see and want and want to run to or be in. And, you know, we, we can flex that muscle as much as we want.

Absolutely. And our— all, all we do is we're just responding to stimulus. That's it. We're responding to what's happening around us. And so we can kind of change our surroundings a little bit to change sort of that information that's coming in. Also, just becoming aware of how we're responding to things can be really hopeful. And then doing intentional practices like meditation, also mindfulness, which is sort of just slowing down, intentionally doing things once, you know, one at a time. That can be really supportive for our nervous system in terms of kicking out of that sort of heightened state, that fight-or-flight response, and then into a more relaxed sort of homeostasis that we're designed to be in. We're not designed to be in fight-or-flight chronically, yet so many of us are.

Okay, so I have to ask you this. Um, you've, you've done meditation for a lot longer than I have, you know, I'm guessing. So you started yoga when you were, you know, not even 16. When did the meditation kick in? Did you begin to use it for sport?

I did not. I would say I really started using meditation when I was in my early 20s, and this was when I When I did my first yoga teacher training, I feel like I learned a little bit about what meditation was, but not a lot. So when my students— when I was in this one bar, one Walmart town, which technically I think there were like 3 bars and 1 Walmart, but you know, you get the vision. I did this thing where I found— I know that what I'm about to say is going to need a little more explanation, so if you want more explanation, let me know, Debra. I found these monks on the internet. I found myself Googling. I wanted to learn more about meditation. I found a group of monks on the internet. They also happened to live in Missouri, the other end of the state. I started emailing with them about this particular style of meditation that they taught, and they said, why don't you come stay with us for a little bit? We'll teach you. And being in my early 20s, I thought, sounds like a great time. It was— my mom was like convinced I was gonna get murdered. Now that I am a mom, if my kids were like, I met these monks on the internet, and they invite— and of course they lived in like the middle of the forest. There's like no Wi-Fi. You have to take a vow of silence, turn in your phone. Of course my mom was horrified. I still did it anyways, and it did end up being life-changing. It was totally fine, very safe there. And I just kind of threw myself in headfirst. I took a vow of silence. I studied with them for a couple of weeks. I was doing like 4 meditations, 3 meditation sessions a day that are about 3-ish hours each, and then kind of like a mindfulness talk in the evening. And it completely changed my life. And from then I was like, I want to learn even more. And so I started dabbling in different styles, and that's where I really came to this conclusion that meditation isn't a one-size-fits-all thing. It's not— you don't have to go and live with the monks and take the vow of silence. You don't have to go to a Joe Dispenza retreat. You absolutely can. You don't have to. You can listen to a short guided meditation. You can do a body scan. You can take little elements from different styles of meditation. And just like we know with movement and also diet, it's not one size fits all either. Not every body needs the exact kind of movement regimen or like the exact macros or whatever it is. Like everyone's body, everyone's mind needs something a little bit different. That's the same for meditation, is finding like what feels good and nourishing for you and finding your formula. So since I'm also neurodivergent, have ADHD, and dyslexia, I love a hyperfixation. So I really wanted to start learning more and more about meditation. I love science, meditation in the brain, all of these things. And I just kind of dove in headfirst, and I loved it, and I'm still swimming in the deep end.

So very cool. I love, love, love. So I want to ask you, yeah, and, and then I'll share a little of my personal story too. Do you even now still have times when you are intentionally setting out, I'm, I'm going to have a session, this is my time, and you resist? Like you can't get your— you can't get that laser pulled in?

Yes, absolutely. Yes, I am a human. I get anxiety. Sometimes I feel tired and burnt out. Sometimes I feel like, you know, sometimes we resist the things that we know are the best for us. Sometimes I do sit to meditate and I'm like, my brain just is having such a hard time getting into it. None of that has necessarily changed. That still happens to me. But what has changed, even in those moments, is I have a lot more kind of space and patience for myself. So one of my favorite things that meditation teaches you is this idea of nonjudgmental observation. So old me, before I was, you know, really meditating or had really opened my heart and my mind to this practice, if I, you know, was trying to meditate and I felt like it was a quote bad meditation, there is no bad meditation. If you're sitting and you're trying, that's amazing. Like, there's really no good, there's no bad. They're all just sort of equal, right? Kind of like with our feelings. Some feel more pleasant than others, but like, there isn't necessarily like a, like a bad feeling in terms of like, well, it's bad bad to be sad and it's only good to be happy. It's like one feels better than the other, but all emotions really are kind of equal. Let them be with you equally. It's sort of like that where meditation is just the practice is what the practice is. Sometimes you feel like, oh, I went a little deeper. Sometimes you feel like, oh my gosh, I could not stop thinking about, you know, don't forget bananas at the grocery store later today because whatever, my 4-year-old loves a banana in the morning. I'll get a temper tantrum if we don't have that banana, whatever it is. And being able to just observe and be like, oh my gosh, I am so worried about those bananas. And like not spiraling, not being like, oh my gosh, Kelly, why, you know, oh, why can't you just— trying to like stronghold my meditation and quote, like, get it right. And just being— and just nonjudgmental observation of just like, huh, would you look at that? I am really— those bananas are really distracting today. And just letting it be that. And that is where I've really seen a lot of the change. Or just being like, you know, I probably, quote, "should meditate today." Maybe I'll give myself a pass today. And not letting that be the end. Of course, if I find myself, you know, not doing it kind of chronically, then I'm like, okay, you know, reset what's going on here. But every once in a while, is it the end of the world? No. Can I be kind to myself in those moments? Yeah, and it's all fine.

So good. So good. And I— you and I talked about this in the green room and potentially on the other podcast, but, you know, my experience basically always wanting to be curious about it but never really being able to get into it, it wasn't until about 3 years ago now that I actually started. And, you know, I— somebody came in front of me and it just was the right time. It's like, yeah, I'm, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna try this. And so the, the— maybe the blueprint or the format and the way that it was presented to me just fit and it worked. And I was with a small group of other friends, more so acquaintances, less friends, which I think was also beneficial, right? So we were very respectful of what somebody else was learning but didn't know enough about each other's lives, which I think was just the right place to be. But I find that a lot of women in midlife were making changes. We hear about this, you'll hear about this on social media, that, you know, women are— you were getting divorced more frequently at midlife, were leaving jobs, were, were changing, were choosing an adventure, you know, that maybe others would think, you know, it's eyebrow-raising kind of thing. And, you know, I think some of us may want to do that but not be ready to pull the trigger. For me, I knew there was something I needed to do, and until I was meditating for, you know, about 6 weeks consistently, I couldn't, couldn't walk away from that thing. So it allowed, you know, a door to open that otherwise I knew was the best for me, but it just became crystal clear when I was sitting with the meditation and knew what that was.

Wow. Yeah, say quiet the mind and the soul shall speak. Mm-hmm. Sometimes you take away all of that noise, all that stimulus, and that is incredible. Thank you for sharing all that with me. And this is something that I hear— I think your experience, although profound, is not uncommon. Because sometimes it's not until you really turn the volume down on everything else that's happening in your life that then you can really hear what's happening underneath the surface and hearing what you're needing and wanting, what you're yearning for. And that if you don't know what's underneath the surface, you can't honor that and fulfill that because you don't even know it's there.

Can we tap into that for a second? Because I wonder if Without knowing this, anybody listening who resists the idea of meditation may actually be trying to protect this method of getting from one day to the next that they have. And there they fear, if I give this up, who am I? I'll be doing things differently, and I don't know what that looks like. So it's a little bit scary.

Yes, and I'm going to yes and you. Yes, and what's really scary is what if I start to get to know myself better, getting a little bit deeper into meditation? Something I love about it is it helps you to connect to your true self or your soul space, your essence, whatever you want to call it. What if that person that's really inside is different than the person I've been living as for the last 40 years of my life, 50 years of my life. That's scary too. Then what happens?

Well, okay, we can't just leave him hanging with that.

Yes. So to go a little bit deeper, and I share that fear because it is one that I've heard, or I hear people, maybe they go on retreats with me or something like that, and they're like, the more I do this work, the more I'm discovering who I was living as isn't my true, like, most authentic self. And the thing that I will say is changing can be hard. However, living your most authentic expression, being connected with your soul space, I think that's really the secret to having like a happy, fulfilling life. Change is always tricky. Change feels uncomfortable. Change, you know, is bumpy, all of that. But when you do connect with that most authentic self, there is no better time to start living from that space than right now. Then you realize it's like your eyes open of the things that you've been doing that really don't bring you joy, or that you really don't find to be fulfilling, or that really aren't in alignment with who you are. And once you have that awareness, that means you can start living in alignment with who you are. You can start doing the things that truly make you happy. You live from that most authentic space that is within you. And that's really truly life-changing. I'll give a tangible example. During a meditation practice— there's two practices that stick out in my mind. One is just out of nowhere— it was actually in a yoga class. I was laying there in shavasana and we were doing like a meditation, and I just felt like— just kind of hit me like a ton of bricks that a couple of things in my life that that I used to view as tragic, right? Like my mom getting sick when I was young, um, kind of one of those like sort of why me moments. Like that was so hard. Now, now that I'm so much older and I think back and I'm like, gosh, like 16, that's like a baby. That is so much to have to deal with at such a young age, you know. Why me? Why all this? And, you know, some other things. And it occurred to me that it just was a blessing in disguise in a way, that those things that I went through led me to the person that I am today. And it was in this sort of meditative state that I just had a complete perspective change, like a 180 on, on my perception of a couple of things that have happened in my life in a positive way. Another one is I was sitting in a meditation. This was around the time I was first starting my business. I did not have a bunch of people that were supportive of my business when it started about 10 years ago. First of all, yoga, meditation were not as like in vogue as, you know, they weren't as mainstream or popular as they are now. And people, I think they kind of thought like, oh, it's kind of a weird field to get into. And also I think that for a lot of people, seeing someone follow their dreams can be triggering if they have a dream within themselves they never chose to follow. Um, you know, a lot of people— my husband is in medical school, so I got the feedback like, oh, so you're just going to stretch with people until you can be a doctor's wife? Which is like so condescending and minimizing. Yeah. Um, but it was in a meditation, I was sitting with this and I had a lot of fear around my business. I was sitting with why this was— I mean, these things that people said were hurtful, they hurt me.

Yeah.

And so I was sitting with them and I realized that it was because a lot of the fears that people were— a lot of the hurtful things people were saying were actually my own internalized fears of like, is this like, why, why does this bother me so much? And it occurred to me that it was because I had internalized some of this stuff too, of like, is just teaching meditation not a prestigious enough job? Or, you know, will people think I'm just buying my time until I can be this like kept woman? Which I would like to say that I, I like to remind people that it was my career that paid for that medical school. So have I really, you know, Am I really just a doctor's wife? But, you know, all these things, it was really— I wasn't able to see that they were just speaking to my own internalized fears. That's why it hurt so much. And once I recognized that, I could release it. And then I really did not— it did not hit the same way after that. I could see it for what it really was, was either their own fear or them kind of poking a soft spot in me that I was working on. And it really didn't hurt the same way. And being able to kind of reframe those things after sitting in meditation, maybe it doesn't sound profound or big to anyone else, but it was big and profound to me. And it made really big shifts in my life for how I was able to then live moving forward.

Very cool. Okay. With that, we— I think we've brought them down off the cliff a little bit. This is so good. Kelly, tell everybody, how can they find you, learn more about what it is that you do, and maybe bridge the gap for themselves not having to try it all alone.

So you definitely don't have to try it alone. I would love to invite everyone to come join me on my podcast, which is called Mindful in Minutes, and I've been doing it for 8 years. So there's over 500 guided meditations over there. Most of them are between like 8 and 12 minutes. You can just scroll, pick a topic that feels right to you, and hit play, and I'll walk you through the whole thing. I like to refer to myself as like the gateway drug of meditation. I would love to be your first little dabbling in meditation if you would allow me and then my website is yogafreelonline.com. There's information there about, you know, retreats, trainings. You can find a link to Instagram, you know, you can click around there and see what speaks to you.

So great. Any exotic locations for your retreats?

Well, I am going to Scotland this spring. That one is full. And then I am currently working on what will be coming in 2026.

Very cool, very awesome. Thank you so much for being here.

Oh, thank you for having me. It's always such a delight to talk to you.

You too.

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