How to Find a Positive Body Mindset While Menopause Changed Everything

Real quick, before we dive into this episode, I have a little sleep secret I want to tell you about. Look, sleep is crucial for your fitness, but it's crucial for just plain old everyday life and function.

And I find I sleep great unless I have a migraine.

And I've had more than my fair share since perimenopause all the way through postmenopause. My secret weapon was Blue Sky CBD sleep gels. Each gel contains 25mg of CBD and 25mg CBN for deep restorative sleep. Something about it helps to reduce inflammation, which I believe for me was key in helping me get to sleep. But the biggest thing is so many of the over-the-counter solutions, whether for sleep or migraines, can ruin gut health, and liver health. Neither one of those did I want to be problematic for me. So this option is recommended by healthcare providers worldwide and backed by thousands of happy customers, many of whom come from our Flipping 50 community. There is zero THC, so it's non-habit-forming. It's made by a trusted family-owned company that we all can feel good about. Third-party tested for purity and potency. And if you're interested, you too can try a sample for just $6. But even better, you can get 30% off forever with discount code FLIPPING50. That's FLIPPING50. Just go to flipping50.com/blueskycbd. We'll put that link in the show notes and you'll find it everywhere on Flipping 50 at My Favorites.

What are you waiting for?

Good night.

So you're standing in the dressing room trying on yoga pants, a bikini, or bras. What are your thoughts when you get them on and you stare at that reflection in the mirror? Body positivity is a term now you you're probably familiar with, but do you have a positive body mindset during the throes of menopause and the changes to your body, your energy, and possibly the empty nest or the relationship changes that come at midlife? Today's guest unpacks her wishes for you based on her work with athletes, midlife women, and eating disorders, sometimes identifying it where a woman didn't know it existed, my guest's work evolved around positive body mindset. So I ask, where are you, friend? Of the up to 90,000 thoughts that we think a day, how many of yours are about the body you have and don't want versus gratitude for the one you've got? My guest today is Stephanie Roth Goldberg. She is a psychotherapist and a psychoanalyst specializing in treating eating disorders and athletes. And by the way, if you're not— stay with me— or you don't identify with that, stay with me. I think you're going to get still a lot out of this. She works with clients in New York City and New Jersey. She has both a group practice and private practice in New York and New Jersey. Additionally, Stephanie teaches on the subject of eating disorders, contributes to articles in several well-known publications on the subject of Anti-Diet Athletes, healing one's relationship with food, body image, and general endurance sport mental health. She collaborates with coaches and sports teams to help foster environments that promote body positivity and healthy relationships with food. Stephanie herself is an Ironman finisher. She's completed several 70.3 triathlons and several half and full marathons. She's a certified RRCA run coach, certified intuitive eating counselor, and most importantly, a mom to two kids who so far love running.

Go you!

All right, can't wait to dive into this episode. I'm Debra Atkinson. You're listening to Flipping 50. I started this podcast over a decade ago to answer questions about fitness in menopause and beyond before you knew to ask them. The goal: to help accelerate your results with science and the practical application of proven protocols while living your best life. There's no more powerful health influencer in the world than a midlife woman. And it's not just about you, but the 3 generations that you influence. My unique 40-year career, including being a university senior lecturer in kinesiology, an industry subject matter expert, and an international speaker, to founder of the first and the only exclusively made for menopause and beyond fitness membership in the world. Every week I interview experts behind the scenes and the science of optimal hormone balancing, fitness, and longevity, and share answers to our community's questions so you can have the vitality and the energy that you want, need, and deserve. Stephanie, thank you so much for being here. I can't wait to dive into this, talking about mindset and talking about as it relates to exercise, body image, and nutrition with you.

Thanks, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Absolutely. And we've talked about— listeners, you'll know this if you've been here for a minute— we've talked about eating disorders or disordered thinking. We've talked about maybe punishment with exercise, but we've never quite come at it with this angle with somebody who's got your background. And first, before we unpack all my questions for you, I'd love to know the big one. First of all, how did you come to this specific work as a psychotherapist? Why this?

Well, it's interesting. I kind of— it happened by accident. I was working for a practice in Midtown Manhattan, and we got a lot of dancers, a lot of Broadway folks, and I was working with all of these professionals, and eating disorders came up over and over. And I thought, oh, I do not have enough training in this. And then, so as I do, I went and I signed up for a training, and I met a woman who sort of leads the field of eating disorders within the psychoanalytic world, and she became my mentor. I've now spent years studying, researching, writing on the topic of eating disorders, discovered a lot about myself along the way. And then being an endurance athlete, I was like, oh, this is rampant all over everyone I know, all over the triathlon team I was a part of, and Then I started getting more referrals for endurance athletes, athletes in general, not just dancers. And it sort of kind of all happened.

I love that. I'm going to pick up on something you said, but I first want to come back to this one distinction. And is this gender specific? Does this occur more with women or are you also seeing and treating it in men?

I do not think it's gender specific. However, I think the research is really skewed. The research is done primarily on women. I think women had more access to treatment for eating disorders for a long time. There weren't even facilities that treated men or non-binary folks. There are now. And I think more and more you see more boys and men who have eating disorders. That maybe was always present, but social media I think really elevated it, particularly for young boys.

Wow. And you said something that made me curious, and I want to say this to anybody who's listening right now who feels like, oh, I don't identify with this, stay with us here, because I think in some way, like, every human has some disordered thinking about food and about, you know, depends on how you were raised. It's the lens that you look through. It's all that you know. You said, I discovered a lot about myself along the way. Say more about that.

Yeah, I mean, at the time that I was doing some of the bulk of my eating disorder training, I was running marathons. I still run marathons. And this is the early 2000s, early to mid-2000s. And I really thought I was just doing what runners did, like, oh, I just need to be thinner to run faster. That's just the deal. And I really was quite orthorexic unknowingly. I didn't even know what that meant. For listeners who don't know what that means, it's really a fixation on healthy food and really be, you know, the idea of like clean eating and really being restrictive around what you're eating under this sort of guise of health, quote unquote.

Yeah.

So when I say I learned a lot about myself, I was like, oh, my eating's totally abnormal. It's not normal to go to a restaurant and say, I don't eat these 12 ingredients in food. But the culture I was in, that's what was the norm.

So cool. And so talk a little bit about what, cause we're talking a lot about exercise and I think endurance athletes of any kind. So I mean, you could be an endurance biker or potentially a swimmer or anything, but I think yes, runners and triathletes, you know, it is all that, you know, get from A to B. And if I'm lighter, I'll do that better. And it is also, I think maybe this goes through a period of time when you're in high school or your college and you're competing, especially if you're a female. I mean, the clothing you're wearing is also a part of the problem. Absolutely. So it's like, you know, it's actually very refreshing, and you can probably speak into this, to actually be a part of a triathlon community and show up and realize, oh my God, it's every size and shape here.

Yes, definitely. I think you're right. And in high school sports, for sure, there's also so much misinformation. That we are given in any sport that I think is part of it, that a lot of times people find themselves thinking they're doing the right thing. Someone gave me this advice, I'm going to not eat this, and that's going to help me. And that kind of spirals very quickly.

So let's talk about mindset and where it comes from. So the mindset that any one of us has right now comes from our own unique environment and largely from the environment we had when we were young, plants a lot of those seeds. So talk about, you know, let's say you don't get to a woman until she is 52. She's listening to this podcast. She's got a lot of mindset, like, cemented. Like, what do you do with that?

You know, it's interesting. I actually just recently started with a woman who's in her 50s and never realized she had disordered eating and was diagnosed as early menopause because she had stopped menstruating, and she had all these diagnoses that fit if you weren't looking at the whole picture. And yes, so the mindset is really solidified. That's true. And there's so much uneducating that is required. But a lot of times, you know, if we look back when you're doing work on yourself and you look back on exactly like you're saying, like, what was my family? What did they say around food or bodies? And people can begin to see like, Oh, I think these things, but I never thought about it. This was my automatic ideas. And in some ways, being an older woman, you have more knowledge. You have the ability to say, oh yeah, I can think about this differently once I'm aware of it. And so some ways it's harder, and some ways the just experience of living makes it easier. Yeah.

And I would say to a lot of women, so a lot of these women know, and this year we're recording, that I turned 60 and it's been kind of an epiphany. It's like, F you. Like, I don't really care anymore what you think, 'cause I only have a limited time on this planet and I'm gonna wear the pants I wanna wear. I'm gonna, don't tell me to cut my hair a certain way because I'm a certain age. And I think that is a part of, you're almost able to separate yourself enough and look like from outside and look at what I was thinking and where that came from in a way that it's maybe not so emotional. It is more intellectual. We can do that. A bit better later in life.

Yeah, you know, that's so funny. Just this morning, early, you know, 5 AM this morning, I was running with a friend of mine. We're both in our mid-40s, and we were saying— I said, oh, I feel so old, takes me so long to recover these days, I didn't sleep enough. And she goes, you know, when we're in our 50s, we're gonna say, what were we thinking? And then she said, well, we're in our 60s. And I said, oh yeah, that's so true. I see that now, even in my 40s, like, I thought I was old, you know, in my 30s.

Yeah.

And so it's funny you say that because with each decade you do get so much more wisdom.

Yeah. Yeah. And so those of you who are thinking you're old, when you're 95, your 95-year-old self is going to say, what was wrong with you? You were so young. Let me talk about this, and, and I'm gonna be totally transparent. So many of you know we pre-record these, and so they may not be released immediately, but it's fairly recent that we've passed through some holidays where we tend to feast and we like to overdo, you know, but then there can be this, especially for women, maybe in our audience who are feeling like I'm already out of control, like I'm already gaining weight and I'm not trying to do anything differently. My hormones are changing in a way that's like, I have not figured out my strategy for this new game I seem to be playing. And so exercise becomes a little bit of a I have to earn my calories, or I have to burn my calories, or I'm working on changing something about my body that I don't like. Talk about the damaging effects of that thinking. And what if you had someone that's where they were, and they're like, I don't like where I'm at, but I don't know how to stop this. How do we get out of that?

One thing I talk a lot about is You know, as soon as you're in that mindset of like, I have to earn my food or I have to burn my food, you're completely outside of your own body and your own desires. And what I would say to someone is, do you feel like exercising today? And let's talk about that. And do you feel like doing the exercise you think you should do or you're planning to do? Or do you instead feel like going for a walk or doing some yoga? And getting in touch with what our bodies need and what our minds and bodies want is really healing and helpful because we can begin to distinguish like, oh, okay, it's actually like I'm part of the cycle. I punish myself for eating and then I eat, right? Like we have to break the cycle somewhere. I also think if you have not yet thrown out your scale, that is the number one recommendation I have for every listener. This is the time of year where we enjoy different foods and we may gain a little weight. And then there'll be a time of year where you're outside more and you're walking more and you're doing more and you naturally lose a little weight, but we don't have to pay attention to it. It all balances out.

Ooh, you don't have to pay attention to it. That was really good. Okay, and so this is where I, I love you and I hate you right now, just transparency, right? Because so many of the women that are here are— they're worried about bone density and they're worried about lean muscle mass. And probably at a point in their lives, they should be concerned about what is happening with that lean muscle mass. Because if we don't lay that down now, 30 years from now, we're in trouble. So this is where I wrestle with that concept. And scale, I agree, at least the basis of weight, but I also think we need to know Are we losing muscle? We gaining muscle? Or are we looking at at least trending? We're not looking at it every day. We're not obsessing about that. So speak into that. Hey, this is Debra Atkinson, and there is one thing you can't do in the gym at your age, and that's get all the protein that you need. You've got to do that in the kitchen to make it easy for myself not only to get the protein but the fiber, the fruits and vegetables I want daily. I started drinking a smoothie a day 30 years ago, but when I realized all the junk, the sugar, and the extras that you don't want, that I don't want, hiding in most protein powders, that's when I finally caved in after years of saying I will never ever ever sell supplements. Stop skipping, skimping, and sabotaging yourself in the morning after workouts by always being prepared. Look, yep, I agree, real food first, but it's just not convenient to carry a turkey sandwich sometimes. The protein— and don't forget the fiber— they kill cravings and they boost satiety, and you've got to make it easy to to do the right thing. You can use code PODCAST for 10% off your first order at flipping50.com today.

Yeah, I mean, the bone density thing— you're not understanding your bone density. You're also harming your bone density by doing the, like, calories in burning, earning situation because you overexercising is the number one cause of low bone density and undereating, right? Like that combination.

Wait a second. For the people in back, Stephanie, would you repeat that?

Yeah. Overexercising and undereating is the number one cause of low bone density.

Yeah.

So the bone density question, I kind of want to say I'm going to ignore your Thoughts about that? You should be doing some strength training to build better bones for sure. The only measure of your bone density is going to happen with a DEXA scan, which maybe you get yearly, maybe you don't need to get it yearly, but unless there's a concern, there's no concern. Like it's not as fragile as I think it seems. And that's where regular strength training is helpful, particularly for women, you know, 40 and up.

If you're not working on that muscle to the extent. So you've gotta create a certain amount of stimulus and you have to have a certain amount of rest to allow that stimulus to take. But you don't know if you're doing that without some measure of progress.

But the measure of progress, couldn't it be last week I, I don't know, deadlifted X amount and this week I'm gonna add 10 pounds to that.

Mm-hmm.

Look at that progress.

Yeah, absolutely. It can be one for sure. And this is where I think that with any physical goals, I think we have to weave this in, that there may be a priority that you have to say, you know, right now I've got this mindset and all I can think about is the X's and the O's, and maybe I need to prioritize letting that go. And so I change what I'm doing. I change the way I measure. I change the way I think about this. And put my focus and emphasis into what outcomes make the most sense. Does that make sense to you?

Yes, because I think the problem with weight as the number one measure is it's fluid. Like you were saying, hormones are all over the place.

So like, yeah, and it's not weight, it's body composition and lean muscle mass that we're concerned about. So the weight could stay the same, right? And here Yeah, but we need to know, did we lose muscle or gain muscle? That we don't want to let go for too long without checking in.

Right. And I think that can be a check-in that happens also somewhat, you know, again, like less frequently. If you're working at it, you're increasing the weight or the reps or whatever it is, you know, you're still working on it without the attention being, how is my body changing? Because that can become kind of arbitrary. And like, that's where the disordered thoughts often creep in.

Yeah.

Whereas if you said, I should be able to add 10 pounds this week and I can't, what's up? Maybe I need another rest day. Let me add 5 pounds and see if that— right? There's like all other solutions to get to the goal.

Yeah. And definitely if you are going backwards, right, you're weaker or you're not doing as many repetitions, that's a good sign of the individual who may need extra rest day. Right, right. Yeah. Or more fuel, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. Amen. Yeah. So good. So you defined orthorexia. I'm so glad you did. As you were talking about it, I also want to define this word dysmorphia. So talk about that, what it is, how it manifests, an example. And then I'd love to talk about females specifically compared or contrasting with males. And dysmorphia?

Yeah, I mean, dysmorphia is really an extreme focus, usually on one body part. I think the thing that people don't know about, like, to be diagnosed with body dysmorphia, usually it's a hyperfocus on a body part. So the person who is obsessed with their shoulders, or, you know, I'm just picking a random thing. Yeah. And it's really a distorted view that one holds, and it becomes obsessive. So that fixing, that is the session. Is it dysmorphic to say I'm short but I am 5'8"? Okay, yes, but there's a measure and there's, you know, it's different than like something. But true body dysmorphia is really that hyperfocus on your body that you hold a distorted view of, which is different than distorted body image, right? So that we have to make that distinction. And so that's often how that distinction is made.

You're looking at me like No, it's the first time I've ever heard anybody say it like that. Yeah. And I know I'm trying to think. I think that for women, if I would say there is one area, I mean, everybody might think boobs when you're young. I don't know.

Oh, it's interesting. I was thinking abs too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And if you look at most popular videos on YouTube, so I happen to have a very dangerous, robust— I know, don't do it. It's not a recommendation, listeners. But if we post an arm exercise video, okay, it's gonna blow up. And if you just do a search, you'll see. And again, this is not a suggestion, I'm just telling you so you don't have to go to it. But arms are a big one. I mean, we don't like our arms. Yeah, tend to think I can't go sleeveless until, you know, until, you know, I, I couldn't now, you know. Yeah, it's an interesting piece.

Well, and that's part of body dysmorphia often is hiding that part of the body, like one or parts. So I think, you know, body image is probably more what you— you know, body dysmorphia is like, I'm convinced my arms look so different than they are, and I'm constantly thinking about how to change the way my arms look, what to do about my arms. Like, I am really obsessively focused on this aspect of myself. It could be my arms and my legs, it could be my arms and my butt, whatever it is. But it's like really a focus on that and a compulsion. You know, either people often avoid looking at mirrors, like it's really a— I refuse to kind of like accept any reality about this. I'm unable to accept the reality that my arms will fit in the sleeves of that shirt or whatever.

Interesting. Okay, so with women who— maybe it's body image that I should use here as a word or the term— when they have a distorted body image, they often, I think, see themselves as too big or, or overall too big or just too big in certain areas, whereas men— am I being stereotypical? And you work with more— tend to see themselves as too small.

I think that's right.

What does that do when we're talking physically? Like, a woman feels like she's too big. What does that do to her? Like, her voice?

Yeah, I mean, you know, it's interesting. The way that this all takes shape for people is different. But a lot of times women want to be smaller, right? And it ends up being that they want to take up less space, so they do in all of the ways. So like, they won't ask a question, they won't, you know, sort of demand space in a gym or anywhere else. Like, it becomes unconscious. But when your self-esteem is low, you tend to not want to take up too much space. And when you're constantly thinking about I need to change, it's hard to then embrace who you are and have desires that you get fulfilled or anything like that.

That was also a mic drop. And that message that, you know, if we are trying to change or constantly not liking where we are, thinking we're in transition, it's hard to know who we are and what we want.

And it's hard to demand that, even if it's as simple as that person cut me in line at the dry cleaner, like, you know, or whatever. So yeah, I think when we try to shrink ourselves in one area, we shrink ourselves completely.

Wow. And so men, are they different? Are they similar? How does that evolve for them?

It's interesting. I think men, it does evolve differently, but also it's less acceptable to talk about it. The other way that I think this affects women is people spend so much time talking about this when we could be talking about So much more interesting or important things, right? So in that way, I don't think it takes over in the same way, but men will spend a lot of time building. And there's such a difference, even symbolically, about building something versus trying to make something smaller.

True.

I'll demand time at the gym or I'll like, you know, move my way into this squat rack when people are there. You know, it's just the difference of like, oh, okay, I'll wait. I don't want to be a bother. And so. Symbolically and how it happens concretely is different.

What about you? Were you always a runner?

No, I was not always a runner.

So prior to your runner self versus now, what happened to you mindset-wise, or the way you think about yourself, or maybe the way you stand up for yourself or use your voice? Is there a distinct difference that you can like describe?

You know, it's interesting. I'm the youngest of 3, so not a ton, but like I needed to be loud if I wanted something. So I always was the loudest in my family, and my mom was someone who was okay, you know, taking up space. So I think I, I think as a runner I really came into my own. I was like, oh, I have power I didn't know I had. I have, you know, more confidence than I had. But I think I was someone who was always somewhat, at least outwardly okay, like asking for my needs to be met, even if then I would go home and be like, oh, should I not have done that? Maybe I should have said that. I think, you know, when women step into their power, whatever that means career-wise, physically, it does allow us to feel more bold in every other area.

Talk about the mindset shift that a woman might have. And of course, every woman is going through menopause. Not every woman has a child, but I think like going through menopause, and that just is a coincidence, or God with a sense of humor. I mean, we also go into empty nest at the same time. It's like, oh my gosh, that's a lot of change. Yes, at one point. And a woman suddenly is like, you know, if her identity was largely wrapped up like in being mom, and you know, now that's gone, you know. And then menopause brings other changes. It's like romantically, that intimate relationship may take a different dynamic for a moment to talk about the mindset of midlife women. And I know we're like accelerating you for your future that you may or may not want after we're done today.

Yes. No, I mean, I think when I think when I work with women who are in that place is you have to plan for it, right? Like just like anything else. I think that women don't— I wish that women nested like, you know, how we nest before we have kids. Like you have to sort of do the same when you're empty nesting though. Like, what are you filling your life with? What are you filling your house with? What are you, you know, adding in so that you don't just feel the loss of this? And then you have menopause, which I do think now there's so many more resources for. And to your point, we can set up our bodies to be a little better off. You know, that's where the muscle mass and bone density does come in.

Yeah.

Um, but I think not ignoring it and just waiting for it to happen is one of the best pieces of advice. But the mindset does have to— there's kind of, you can have a growth mindset with anything. I look at this as a way, as a potential for me to learn something about myself or to grow in some capacity. Or you can have a fixed mindset, like this is what it is, it will never change, there's nothing I can do about it. And so I think learning and leaning into a growth mindset when these changes are happening is how you're going to enter the next phase of your life.

So good.

Yeah.

And I totally agree with you. And I think by now, at least, you know, by 40 even, but definitely by 50, if you have not stopped and taken a moment, I think at this point we have to say, look, I could be only at halftime right now, so I better freaking get on with a plan for the next 50 instead of thinking I'm coasting downhill and I'm just going to go along for the ride wherever the bus stops, whatever. I mean, who wants to be on that one?

Right, right.

So good. Stephanie, is there— knowing we're talking to primarily women 45 to 70, and if you're an outlier, we see you, we're not ignoring you— what question should I have asked you that I didn't?

I think the question I would love for people to think about is like, what is going to keep you moving into your 70s, 80s? 90s, right? Like, and I think the question is, how do people find joyful movement? And that doesn't mean that every time you leave the house you're like excited to go exercise per se, but it kind of goes back to that what we were saying earlier, like, do exercise or movement that you enjoy. You need to build muscle, you need to work on having strong bones, but you need to work on sustainability too. And so find pleasure in your body and how it moves and experiment with what that looks like for you. I think that's the question is, how do I make this enjoyable?

Beautiful, beautiful way to end. Where can listeners come stalk you, follow you? They will do that, you know. Great.

And Instagram at embodiedpsychotherapist is my Instagram handle. I'm just switching over. My website is S-R-G, my initials, psychotherapy.com, and come find me, send me a message. I'd be happy to hear from you.

Awesome. Yes. So you heard it here, everybody. So the link for her on Instagram will be in the show notes for today. And we would both love for you to go over there and just say, hey, I heard you on the Flipping 50 podcast. Thanks for the work you do. So we want to know that it mattered and you listened to the episode. Both would be great. Stephanie, thank you again for your time today.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you for listening. To listen to a decade of episodes and to get the show notes, visit flipping50.com where you'll be able to find all the previous episodes and I made it super easy. To make the most of your listening time and get exactly what you want to listen to as top priority by getting the top 10 episodes in the areas you most care about, like how much protein do you need, weight loss, and other 3 ultra-important topics we've identified as our community's top 5. There's no more powerful health influencer in the world than you, midlife woman. So go and listen right now. Do you have a question for a podcast? A question you'd love to ask, or maybe a story you want to tell? Did you know we have a special group just for podcast podcast question roundups and the answers. My community coaches and I provide answers daily inside of this group, but it's also where I go when I occasionally say, okay, open call for podcast questions, or tell your story. Would you like to be a guest? So if you're looking for a community of women who are also interested in optimizing their health, strengthening their mindset, and looking forward to every new year. Join the Flipping 50 Insiders group. That's Flipping 50 Insiders on Facebook.