Take Up Space: A Perimenopause Body Builder on Her Strength Journey

Real quick, before we dive into this episode, I have a little sleep secret I want to tell you about. Look, sleep is crucial for your fitness, but it's crucial for just plain old everyday life and function. And I find I sleep great unless I have a migraine. And I've had more than my fair share since perimenopause all the way through postmenopause. My secret weapon was Blue Sky CBD sleep gels. Each gel contains 25mg of CBD and 25mg CBN for deep restorative sleep. Something about it helps to reduce inflammation, which I believe for me was key in helping me get to sleep. But the biggest thing is so many of the over-the-counter solutions, whether for sleep or migraines, can ruin gut health, and liver health. Neither one of those did I want to be problematic for me. So this option is recommended by healthcare providers worldwide and backed by thousands of happy customers, many of whom come from our Flipping 50 community. There is zero THC, so it's non-habit-forming. It's made by a trusted family-owned company that we all can feel good about. Third-party tested for purity and potency. And if you're interested, you too can try a sample for just $6. But even better, you can get 30% off forever with discount code FLIPPING50. That's FLIPPING50. Just go to flipping50.com/blueskycbd. We'll put that link in the show notes and you'll find it everywhere on Flipping 50 at My Favorites. What are you waiting for? Good night. Strong does things that skinny doesn't even dream about. I love that quote, and this episode is for you if you also like it or want to learn to. A perimenopause bodybuilder is here to share her story of how to take up space and how to tell the history of women. And it was, by the way, strong Long before it was skinny. Inside this episode, recent book author Anne-Marie Chaker shares a history cycle that may surprise you about women's empowerment and when skinny in history reared its ugly head. Stay till the end and listen to a very subtle challenge we'll give you about observing the messages sent to women and what you can do about it. To make some change.

I'm Debra Atkinson, and you're listening to Flipping 50. I started this podcast over a decade ago to answer questions about fitness and menopause and beyond before you know to ask them. The goal: to help accelerate your results with the science and the practical application of proven protocols while living your best life. There's no more powerful health influencer in the world than a midlife woman.

It's not just you, but it's the 3 generations that you influence.

My unique 40-year career, including being a university senior lecturer in kinesiology, an industry subject matter expert, an international speaker, to founder of the first and the only exclusively made-for-menopause-and-beyond fitness membership in the world. Every week I interview experts behind the science of optimal hormone-balancing fitness and longevity and share answers answers to our community's questions so you can have the vitality and the energy you want, need, and deserve.

My guest again is Annmarie Chaker. She's a veteran journalist and professional bodybuilder. During her two-decade career at The Wall Street Journal, she held reporting jobs all over the paper, from the journal's regional editions to the spot news desk during the September 11th attack. She's covered covered everything from politics to news events, consumer trends, education, the workplace, and the major sociological shifts of our time. Her article, "I Never Thought I'd Write This: I Am a Female Bodybuilder," has generated more than 500,000 views since it was published in 2020. Chaker lives in the Washington, D.C. area with her partner Rick, daughters Juliet and Sylvie, and their overeager pup, Ninja. And I think you're really gonna like this episode. So whether you're perimenopause, postmenopause, whether you do or you don't have daughters or daughters-in-law, this one really applies to us. And if you're struggling with symptoms of depression, anxiety, mood disorders, or with a struggle with your body and the skin you're in right now, stay tuned. I think you'll like this. Annemarie, thank you for joining me.

Hey, Debra, thanks for having me.

I can't wait to dive into this. So first of all, we love the saying here, "Strong does things that skinny doesn't even dream about." And you're speaking our language because I think you've written this entire book that really is dedicated to that point. And maybe your own personal story falls in. So I want to unpack that too. But for the listeners, you started bodybuilding as a hobby when you were recovering from postpartum depression and a series of other life events that I'll let you unpack if you wish to. Talk about how training changed, changed you, and how it impacted that journey that you were on. And I'm going to guess intuitively that maybe your postpartum was kind of bumping right into your perimenopause. Am I right about that?

Wow, I don't know. I don't know. But I do know that it was a rough time in my life. And you're right, I had just had my second baby and was really struck with how difficult it was. I really suffered with postpartum depression. But that was exacerbated by the death of my father, just like 10 days after the baby was born. You know, my parents lived a couple doors down, were very close. And I had just spoken to my dad where he was going on a grocery run, told him to pick up a couple things, and then he just died of a heart attack while walking the dog. And so it was You know, I think I counted like 11 days or something where I literally could not sleep, which I know sounds insane, but it's a sign of, you know, depression when you can't sleep. And, you know, I was sitting home in the living room, a neighbor came over, we were kind of cross-legged on the couch and just talking, and I told her how I couldn't sleep. And she said, just have a half a glass of wine or something and take the edge off before you go to bed. And so That's where it started. I was never much of a drinker, but kind of that half a glass became a glass and then two glasses. And then before I knew it, I was pretty addicted to the stuff and couldn't stop. So my marriage ended, you know, it's just like one thing after another. And this went on for like a couple years where I was just really struggling and All this came to a head. I took my daughter to an ice hockey tournament. I was coaching at the time, and we were on this drive to Ocean City, Maryland, 2.5-hour drive. I was with my mom, the hockey bags, and I just remember not being able to stop thinking about when I would get my next drink. And I had my— I was thinking I had my mom with me and how would I get around this? And it was just crystal clear to me on this drive that I had a problem. And we got to this hotel the stinky hotel where we were staying. And, um, in the hotel there was a fitness room, and I poked— I remember poking my head in. I don't even know why, because it wasn't like I was even working out at the time. Um, but there was a hockey mom in there, actually the mom of one of the kids that I, um, coached, who was just crushing a workout. She was lifting barbells and pulling bands and, uh, sweating, and she was beautiful and muscular. And I just really admired her. And I thought to myself, "That is what I want to be. Give me some of that." And so I struck up a conversation with her and asked her, like, "What's your deal? What do you do? CrossFit? What?" And she said she did bodybuilding competitions and she had a coach and tracked macros and da-da-da. And it all sounded very, like, serious and enticing and I said, "Well, you look amazing. I look terrible. I think I have a drinking problem. So give me the name of your coach and maybe she can work with me." So that's where it started. I got home, name of the coach was in my inbox, and she was this retired bodybuilder, and started working with her. And that is where my fitness journey kind of began.

And how old were you at that point?

I was— let's see, I was— this would have been 2019. I want to say I was like 44. Yeah.

And so you started actually bodybuilding. Did you start with the thought that I want to compete?

Oh my God, no, no. I thought like that sounded so completely ridiculous. And I, you know, thought like the spray tans and like, it just— no. Um, but you know, she seemed to, you know, she worked with people who are not just bodybuilders, but people who just needed to get some on some kind of path with fitness and nutrition. So So what I loved about her was that she just said, "First thing, we're just going to look at what you're eating. So let's take a look. Just log everything you eat for a couple of weeks and let's just take a look." And we realized that, like, my calories were really low. Like, I wasn't eating nearly enough. I was basically going from, you know, coffee in the morning to whatever scraps came off my kids' plates or whatever was quick, you know, nuggets or whatever they didn't want to eat. And then wine. So it wasn't exactly the breakfast of champions, right? So she was like, "Well, this is ridiculous. You're not eating nearly enough," which was interesting to me because my whole life I had been kind of taught, like, "Cut your portion sizes and diet and eat less and, you know, low-cal." Caloric deficit, yeah. Right. Or like, you know, low-fat. Fat and look at the fat grams on the salad dressing and stuff. So, um, this was kind of like wonderful news that, you know, I could eat more, and it's a little bit scary to me, right? Right. Um, the other thing— so we started upping my calories, um, and really paying attention. Taught me to track macronutrients, um, which are carbs, fats, and proteins. Um, and really with paying close attention to the amount of protein I was— so focus on whole foods, um, eating at home, and lots of protein. And, uh, then she started sending me to the gym, but not to do the stuff that I would have expected, which was like, you know, treadmill to burn calories and try to get— so it was a focus, actually no cardio, but a focus on lifting heavy weights, which I loved because I'd been an athlete in my childhood and in college. And I remembered when I was a rower, the weight room, and I loved it then. And I just had been away from it for so long. So the combination of the food and— I mean, it sounds so dumb, right? Like eating food and lifting weights. And like, I— naturally kind of stopped craving alcohol. I was just like so well-fed that like I didn't really— and just kind of taking care of myself. And I would come home from a lift at the gym and just feel this surge of— I mean, my work got better. Everything in my life got better, right? Like I started performing better at work. My ideas were better. I was more productive. I could even hear it in my voice. I would interview people on the phone and my voice was just more confident and I could push back and say no. Like, it was like this other person was emerging. I started wearing lipstick again, and I created a Match.com profile. I met my future husband. Like, there were all these, like, positive things. And the best way I can describe the feeling is that it was like suddenly I inhabited this body that I felt like I was always supposed to. And for so much of my life, I had been chasing trying to be less and never really like getting there. And it was so filled with dissatisfaction and like not liking what I saw in the mirror. And like, suddenly it was like I was an athlete again. And like, for the first time, I was wearing like a two-piece bathing suit and just— so the journalist in me— oh, and I skipped over— I ended up I ended up entering a bodybuilding competition. And so at that point, how far into it were you? Um, a year. So this was after about a year. My coach said, you know, you put on muscle really easily, you look good, you should consider competing. And I thought, no, no, no, that's not for me. And then like, you know, something just kind of in me just kind of said, you know what, screw it, like, do it. And like, maybe I'll write about it. And so the thing— I won my pro card, um, and first competition. Yeah. Wow. And I wrote a story about it for the journal, and the story just went bonkers, um, and led to this book deal, um, with Penguin Penguin Random House, which is coming out on Tuesday.

So amazing.

Oh my gosh, so many questions and so many women potentially who are doing bodybuilding competitions who are thinking, what? She's like one competition and she did that? Because I, I'm not in that world and I don't recognize it, but I know a lot of people try over and over again in order to get that pro card because that's really coveted.

Yeah.

So at 44, you get started and whether you feel symptoms or not. And again, I think potentially I would say, you know, you're postpartum and so you didn't necessarily know what, which was which. But what is it like competing in perimenopause?

And are you still—

was there a second competition?

Yeah, so I, I've competed since then. This is gonna be my third season as a competitive bodybuilder and my first as a pro. So, and I'm 50 now, so it feels my body is definitely in the throes of perimenopause. As I've realized the last year, I've just had like a number of like symptoms and I just didn't know what they were. And finally I realized, aha, this must be what it is. So I'm taking hormone replacement therapy helps a lot. So this is all very recent, but it kind of took me by surprise for sure. I'd always kind of thought like, oh, hot flashes, like, what is that? Like, you know, I had this vision of like women getting hot and oh Lord, like, you know, that's not what it was like for me. It felt like a I— for me, it came in almost these like panic attack feelings. Um, I would get these like prickles over my body, my face, and kind of, um, uh, almost kind of this like panicky, anxious feeling. And it happened like fairly often. Um, and I— that I— I don't know. And then I had like an anger like thing while I was driving, a road rage incident, and it was so unlike me.

Officer, officer. Yeah, it's perimenopause.

I can't— it's menopause. This is, this is the maybe a reason for gun control because of a gun. I'm not sure. This is why I keep away from menopausal women on the road. But, um, um, But yeah, so, so that's been a different experience. And so I'll be, I'll be competing this summer as like a fully full-on menopausal lady. So, but it's no, but back to the book. The, so the book was born of a kind of desire to really kind of understand this like idea why Why had I been chasing kind of this false idol, you know, when it was so obvious that like my body worked better in every way when, when like it was well fed and strong. So I really wanted the book to be like a journalistic narrative about, you know, where the heck did skinny come from? What is the story of skinny, thinness? And, and where and why. And so, and why not muscle? So the first third of the book is kind of a look at the history of, you know, when skinny started and really like started, you know, in the 1860s, you know, when food became more plentiful. Yeah, you know, it became more of a— became— started to become more of a status symbol. At one point, you know, women who had access to lots of food were more rotund, and that was considered— so then once, you know, the economics of supply and demand kind of shook out, you know, thinness became more of a coveted thing. And there was stuff in the literature also about, you know, starting to emerge about like letters on corpulence. Corpulence started to emerge as this word of caution. And then, you know, restrict— the first glimmers of dieting. You know, we saw dieting seemed almost kind of a virtuous thing. If you look at like Sylvester Graham and inventor of the graham cracker. So there's this whole story, but that's a really fairly recent phenomenon. If you go back thousands of years, you know, I became really enamored of the research from this woman out of Cambridge who studied prehistoric bones, and she compared early women, Paleolithic bone structures in those women compared with a population of women students at Cambridge University. Had looked at athletes and more sedentary individuals and found that the early women's bones were the size of the elite rowers at Cambridge. And actually they were stronger and more buff than the rowers. So the notion that like women were the gatherers while the men were the hunters was just bullshit. Like it was actually like the women were buff. They were an integral part of agriculture. They weren't out there picking berries while, you know, men were out there with bows and arrows. They were, they were strong and they were buff. So that really, that study really synthesized it for me. It was just like, God, that is the OG woman. That is why I perform better this way, is because that is what we were meant to be. So, um, then kind of I started to look at, well, the science of muscle and how, and, you know, women's strength and how women are strong, stronger than men even in a lot of ways that just goes uninvestigated. And we can get into that. But that's kind of the— that's kind of the book.

Relatively, yes. You know, women's strength. And I think— I think of art. So I spent my first couple of years in college as a graphic designer with lots of art history. But notoriously, that was true in art too, like Italian Renaissance, Baroque, you know, until about the 1920s, ample, rounded, curvy women were— that was the COVID That's what you see in paintings there. There weren't these frail individuals until like the, you know, the flappers in the '20s, you know, that we began to see that. And then of course, every— everyone associates Twiggy in the '70s with that, you know, and I wonder what's happening to us now, right?

Well, it's interesting that you say that. There is a theory that these moments where skinny becomes— comes to the fore across history follows these waves of women gaining more power. So for instance, the flappers came around when shortly after women had got the right to vote. So, you know, it's almost kind of like this cultural backlash to these moments when women become more empowered, and it's almost kind of a patriarchal way of like making, pushing women back and making them in a more childlike state. So for instance, you know, Twiggy Twiggy happened after, you know, the second wave of feminism. You know, the waif. You think about the waif and Kate Moss and that whole look. Well, that came after, you know, women were kind of, you know, the power suits and they were surging into boardrooms and in professional newsrooms and rank in a big way. And today, you know, we've got GLP-1s, which came about when women and autonomy has you know, and reproductive rights has a new sense of urgency. So, um, yeah, no, it's really interesting when you start to think about some of this stuff.

Amazing. So there is still this huge emphasis, I think, on aesthetics, but even in bodybuilding. So talk about that. But one thing I would like to, for listeners, is maybe define and distinguish between bodybuilding and figure competition. If you would do that, just so that everybody has the idea.

Okay.

What is that like? Hey, this is Debra Atkinson, and there's one thing that you can't do in the gym at your age, and that's get all the protein that you need.

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So there's actually, um, different classes, um, in bodybuilding, women's body and men's bodybuilding too, but, um, I compete in a division called bikini, which is kind of like a— I would say it's a more athletic physique. Muscle is important, but it's kind of a little bit more of a leaner, more athletic physique. The next level up is figure, which you mentioned, which is a little bit more muscle, and the posing is a little bit different, similar to bikini, but just a little bit more muscle on the frame. The third division is the most muscular, and that's called women's bodybuilding. It's, again, the posing there is different. It's a little bit less popular now. Fewer women compete in that division. Bikini, I would say, is the most popular.

Got it. Okay, so come back to this for a second because notoriously in sports, you know, of any kind, and in broader— if we say just inclusively in fitness for women— the sports that seem to get women in the most trouble are those that reveal the most skin. You know, it's, you know, it's the gymnasts, it's the swimmers, it's the divers who tend to have the most dysfunctional eating and/or, you know, become amenorrheic because it can matter to performance. But it's also, I think, they're encouraged to look a certain way that, you know, thank goodness in gymnastics we've really broke out of that. You look at now compared to, you know, Nadia Comaneci, you know, and the waifs that we saw then, women are strong. I mean, we see gymnastics as something very different than we used to. But talk about that and how that lands for you. I mean, was that, you know, any bit of a push-pull, or the— yeah, how did that fit for you?

Yeah, um, that's a really, really interesting question. Um, so I fell in love with, you know, the world of muscle and, uh The sport drew me. I think I mentioned earlier that I thought this was not for me, this is not my jam, but it did teach me a lot about focus and strength and nutrition and training hard. And I kind of fell into this world of like, It changed my aesthetic. Like, I had once chased this kind of, you know, trying to emulate this kind of body, but I fell in love with, you know, muscle, and muscular bodies became very beautiful to me. Um, and I just, uh, really love muscle on a physique, and that's what that became like what I chased. Um, I think what you're referring to is, yes, part of the thing, the, the, the challenge with the sport is it's a very subjective one. Um, you're not being graded on performance, you are being graded on your appearance on a stage side next to other women. And so yes, there was some discomfort of that for sure, especially a woman in her 40s, um, competing against much younger women. And there is a— I don't know, shall we say a sexiness to it? The poses, you know, you're strutting on a stage, you're striking poses. But, you know, it was so different for me. It was so different from kind of the staid, sort of office-y kind of culture of The Wall Street Journal. That— and nobody knew who I was on the stage, you know. So like getting to take on this persona and, you know, be in a bikini and a spray tan with big hair and lots of makeup and all the muscles and strength, I just loved it. I was surprised at how much I loved it. And I loved the community of people who also loved muscle and making more of it and who found beauty in this aesthetic. So, yeah, it just was a lot. It opened up a whole— I met like really interesting new people that I wouldn't have met otherwise. I compete in a federation called the Organization of Competition Bodies, OCB, and it is a drug-tested federation. So people who compete in it have to take a lie detector test. They have to— if they win a class, they have to have a urinalysis. So it's a commitment to, you know, to a high standard of competition. And it's just a— it's a very cool community. So, yeah, no, I know, I know it sounds very unlike, you know, But it's something that I just, I still really enjoy participating in.

When you were talking about that, it makes me think, and this is not necessarily a direct parallel, but in some way it's like stepping outside of your normal role is actually very empowering. Do you remember when Demi Moore starred in The Stripper Show? Oh, she was doing all the publicity for that. And I remember her saying, you know, I highly recommend that you learn how to do this. Do it for yourself because it's— it will affect you in a way that you don't expect. You know, you'll feel differently, but you feel empowered, not belittled, not, you know.

Yeah, yeah. I, I think that I never— was it a— was it a movie that she was in? It was a movie.

Yeah, I can't think of the name of it, but she in it had to strip, and I think she was trying to support her— she was single mom trying to support her daughter, and that was right, right. What she was resorted to.

Um, it's funny because I was on another podcast and it was a man who interviewed me and he, you know, acted very like, you know, kind of horrified that like I, you know, what was it, is it a panel of men that are just, no, there's like, you know, it's like, no, I'm old and like I know myself and I, I, I own it. Like, and it's, um there's nothing wrong with feeling a little sexy. And you're right, like, in another— in a bunch of sports, the aesthetic is a part of it. It is. I was a figure skater for many years when I was a kid growing up, and, um, and, uh, you know, there's, uh, aesthetics is a huge part of that sport, um, and that's, I would argue, part of the beauty in it. And I think same goes for for bodybuilding competitions. What—

so I want to ask, do you have daughters or sons? Or—

I do. I have two girls, yes, ages 10 and 14.

Oh, oh, so you're right there, really. So where do you think we're headed, given that you've really— you dove into history, you dug into your reactions and responses to changing the way you thought about physical activity and the way you take care of yourself. Where do you think we're going, you know, in the future? And what are your hopes? If you don't have that crystal ball, what are your hopes for your daughters?

Yeah, um, well, it's definitely a different world than the one we grew up in, right? Um, they, uh, I really tried to keep the phones away from them for as long as I could. And this year with my daughter and 8th grade. I've given her access to a phone and she looks at social media, she looks at TikTok, and sometimes I see what she looks like— she looks at, and I don't always like it. And so that concerns me. So this has been— you're really leaning into a hot topic in our household. These—

I bet.

Yeah, it's real. It's real. So, uh, on the other hand, I will say that in the years since I've been training, so since 2019, before COVID I'd say in the last year or two, I've noticed a flood of young women in the weight room like never before in the gyms. I would say at any given time, 50% of the people in the weight room are female. They're usually in their 20s, I would say, and they're probably influenced by some of the very stuff that my daughter is looking at. So not all of it is horrible. These young women, these kids, these young women know what they're doing in the gym. So it's not like they're going in there not knowing. No, they know exactly what they're doing. They're doing lifts correctly. They're showing up with friends. So that's good. I think this world of gymfluencers and social media has opened up strength training to a generation of, of, of young women. At the same time, I worry about the GLP-1s. I think time will tell how this will— I do not dispute that it helps some people who really need it, but I also think it's being used cosmetically for people, women who are just like trying to take '10 pounds off,' or, 'Look good in,' you know, 'a dress,' or whatever. And so I just, I'm very careful with how I communicate about some of this stuff with my daughters. I like that they see me lifting weights in the basement. They don't think anything of it. They think it's cool. They sometimes participate with me. I think that's great. In the kitchen, when I talk about food, I talk it I'm very careful with how talking about it in the positive. If I'm weighing something and they ask me why I'm weighing it, I say it's because I need— for mommy sport, I need to take a lot of protein and make sure I'm eating enough protein. So I'm always trying to put it in the positive. But yeah, I worry about the daughters who see moms taking GLP-1s and what message that sends. So there's a lot of conflicting threads here. I hope that the strength and the more stuff and themes like in, in my book will help the next generation see that there's another path, you know, that there's, there's a whole other path of, um, of, uh, being strong and being more and not, you know, just feel like our whole lives we've been fed these messages of of like thin and skinny. You know, think about it, like it's in the name of the crackers we buy in the grocery store, thin this, thin mints, thin wheats, and like the jeans we wear are skinny. Like skinny and thin, it's like the constant drumbeat of a woman's, you know, society bringing up. And so, you know, I hope if anything that this next generation will really kind of be able to look at that and say like, huh, you know, maybe enough of that. You know, we don't have to be— we don't have to be fed that, and we can look at it critically. And, and maybe that's the start to, to something new.

Yeah, I love that. And I think that, you know, like, your transformation, you know, from, you know, a place where you were really struggling to a place of empowerment You know, feeling good, feeling good in your own skin, feeling energy. You know, it is our legacy to pass it to daughters or daughters-in-law and look at, you know, who are we, what are we doing, what are we passing down. Yeah, I, you know, I think that, you know, I'm gonna ask you this. I mean, how do you propose that women make that mindset shift? Because you and I can talk about it, they can have listened to us for a half an hour now, and nod intelligently. But I— there's this habit gravity that I think can happen in so many places in our lives where they're still going to potentially make that next decision at dinner or when they walk into the gym, like, should I do cardio, should I do weights, I need to do both, you know. And they may be pulled to the default, I'm going to burn calories. How do you suggest that a woman makes that mindset shift such that it changes the action she takes next?

Yeah, I mean, like we talked about, it's, it's, it's been so ingrained in us from day one. I— it's not our fault, first of all, that we are, you know, you know, thinking this way. So I don't want women to beat themselves up if they're like, oh God, I wish I didn't feel like I had to do cardio. Like, is it It's okay. It's because, you know, like me, how can we not? Like, there's a Pilates studio a block away, and like, the messages on the window of this Pilates studio drives me crazy. It's all like, lean muscle, and, you know, lengthen. And these are just coded words for like, get thinner. And so I think an important step— there's a whole section of my book, actually. I talked with a researcher out of Stanford about— who works with disordered eating. And his advice is to, like, really take a pause and look critically at that and just kind of, hmm, you know, like, start noticing it and tell yourself, like, Maybe that's not okay. You know, maybe there's a better way. That's actually not healthy. Actually, there's no such thing as lean muscle. That's marketing speak. Muscle is muscle, and it's healthy and good for me to build more of it. So just kind of like recognizing that those messages are there and we've— we notice them now in a different way and to start, you know, telling yourself like, huh, maybe that's bullshit, maybe that's crap, maybe there's a better way. And I think I know what it is.

So, so good. Yeah, I hear you saying, you know, get curious, not judgmental, but just get curious first and put your antenna up. Yeah, you know, and see after this conversation if you look around you know, at any ad or billboard and you see it differently, that's progress. Even that is progress. Yeah, I love it. And where can everybody follow you first of all? And I'm guessing they can get their hands on the book anywhere books are sold, but tell me if otherwise, where should they go?

So you can, uh, find me on Instagram. It's Anne Marie Chaker, C-H-A-K-E-R. Um, I have a website, annemariechaker.com, and the links to where you can buy the book are on my website. You can get it on Amazon, Barnes Noble, Target, Walmart, anywhere books are sold, um, and it's available.

Thank you so much for this discussion, so rich, and thank you for the book. It will help so many women.

Thank you so much, Debra. I hope it brings a lot of good into the world.

Thank you so much for listening. To listen and access a decade of episodes and the show notes, visit Flipping50.com, where you'll be able to find all of our prior episodes. And I made it easy for you to make the most of your listening time by selecting 5 specific areas most commonly high priorities for our community and giving you top 10 lists if you let me know you'd love them. If you know a midlife woman or a soon-to-be one who wants to optimize her midlife energy and time with the right exercise and lifestyle changes and a mindset shift about just what is possible, share this podcast with her, and I thank you. There is no more powerful health influencer in the world than you, midlife woman.