Turning Your Personal Drama and Trauma into Transformation

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Personal drama or personal trauma? One and the same? I'll explore that today with my friend and colleague, Dr. Debbie Silber. She is a returning guest for a very good reason. This is not necessarily one of those topics that you would write in and say, I wish you'd talk about this, because for a lot of this, this can be something that we have and don't know or acknowledge can be something that we only acknowledge privately, not publicly, and don't necessarily ask for help. So this is me acknowledging the fact that sometimes we need this. And if you haven't looked at it, even if you think this is not me, I don't need this, please stay tuned. It may be you, it may be somebody you know, and maybe we can prevent it happening again. We all have some inevitable trauma from the human experience. When does it become life-limiting or prevent you from the health and happiness you want, need, and deserve? That's the question, really. The word betrayal will be one we discuss today right away. And when we talk about betrayal, most of us first think infidelity, but it's not always that. And it is so much more.

My guest today is a returning guest, Dr.

Debbie Silver, founder of the PBT, that's Post Betrayal Transformation Institute, and National Forgiveness Day. It's celebrated annually on September 1st, which mark your calendar. And by the way, Nothing says you can't just have Forgiveness Day at the first of every month. Wouldn't that be a good idea? She's an award-winning speaker and a two-time number one international bestselling author. Her podcast, From Betrayal to Breakthrough, is also globally ranked within the top 1.5% of podcasts. Her recent PhD study on how we experience betrayal made three groundbreaking discoveries that changes, how long it takes to heal. In addition to being on Fox, CBS, The Dr. Oz Show, TEDx twice, and more, she's dedicated to helping people move past their betrayals as well as any other blocks preventing them from the health, the work, the relationships, confidence, and the happiness that they most want. Stay tuned. I know this may sound again like an episode that isn't you, doesn't fit you. But you might be surprised to find out how this actually transforms you if indeed there is a betrayal in your background.

I'm Debra Atkinson. You're listening to Flipping 50. I started this podcast over a decade ago to answer questions about fitness in menopause and beyond before you knew to ask them. The goal to help accelerate your results with science and the practical application of proven protocols while living your best life. There's no more powerful health influencer in the world than a midlife woman. And it's not just about you, but the 3 generations that you influence. My unique 40-year career, including being a university senior lecturer in kinesiology, an industry subject matter expert, and an international speaker, to founder of the first and the only exclusively made-for-menopause and beyond fitness membership in the world. Every week I interview experts behind the scenes and the science of optimal hormone balancing, fitness, and longevity, and share answers to our community's questions so you can have the vitality and the energy that you want, need, and deserve.

Dr. Debbie Silver, thank you for being in the house.

Always great to be with you, my friend.

So true. And I want to start at the very beginning. I know you are not a newbie, you're a returning guest, and most likely this is not your last chance flying here either. But I think betrayal is such an elusive word. And I think immediately we might go to infidelity, but betrayal could show up in a lot of ways. Will you it. Give us some insight into what is the definition, how does it show up?

Yeah, it's huge. I mean, here's my definition. It's the breaking of a spoken or unspoken rule, and every relationship has them. So the way it works is the more we trust and the more we depend on the person, the deeper the betrayal. So let's say there's a child who's completely dependent on their parent. That's going to have a different impact than let's say your best friend sharing your secret, your coworker taking credit for your idea. I mean, think about it. We even had an agreement. I was gonna show up, we were gonna have a conversation. If I didn't, I would've betrayed you. Now that wouldn't have done nearly the damage as if something much bigger than that, but it's the breaking of the spoken or unspoken rule.

[Speaker:DEBRA_ATKINSON] Wow. Okay. So it shows up in so many ways in everyday life. Someone's— and I want to ask this from both sides— how does this impact somebody's health, work, relationships? And an answer from both the betrayed and if you are the betrayer.

We see it in health, work, relationships a few ways. The first is, let's say relationships. I'll see it in one of two ways. A classic sign of an unhealed betrayal is a repeat betrayal. The faces change, but it's the same thing. We go from friend to friend to friend, boss to boss to boss, partner to partner to partner. We say, what the heck, is it me? Yes, it is. Not in that it's your fault, in that it is a golden opportunity. There's a gigantic lesson waiting and needing to be learned. And the lesson could be you are lovable, worthy, deserving. You need better boundaries in place. You finally need to understand how amazing you are, whatever that is, until and unless You get that. We have opportunities that look like people to teach us. So repeat betrayal, classic sign that there is something there left to heal. The second way we see it is the big wall goes up. We're like, nope, been there, done that. No one's getting close to me again. We think that's coming from a place of strength. Oh no, it's not. It's coming from fear. We are unwilling to risk that level of vulnerability because our heart was so hurt that we would rather keep everyone at bay than risk that level of pain again. But think about it. It's like, imagine if you love cooking and you burn yourself on the stove and you're like, that's it, never cooking again. Not fair to you, right? We need to learn how to cautiously, carefully go towards that stove again. So that's just in relationships. In health, we'll see in so many ways. One way is we go from, you know, to the best Doctors, coaches, healers, therapists to manage a stress-related symptom, illness, condition, disease. And at the root of it is an unhealed betrayal. Like for example, 45% of everyone betrayed has a digestive issue. Crohn's, IBS, diverticulitis, constipation, diarrhea. So you can go to the most well-meaning, let's say gut experts. We're friends with many of them, right? But if an unhealed betrayal is at the root of it, they can put you on the most amazing protocol. You are not getting all of what needs to be dealt with in order to completely heal from that.

Right? Wow.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, we see it at work too. You, you deserve that raise or promotion, but your confidence was shattered in the betrayal and you don't have the confidence to ask, or you wanna be a team player, collaborative partner, but the person you trusted the most proved untrustworthy. How do you trust that boss, that collaborative partner? Right. It shows up everywhere.

Wow. Okay. I want to come back to something you said, though, just to make sure that I clarify for myself. And so for listeners, when you say repeat betrayal, you don't necessarily mean the same person betraying you over and over. It's just like wherever you go, you're being betrayed. Am I capturing that correctly?

It's actually an end. It could be repeat betrayals from the same person because there were no consequences. Very common. And I'll tell you, in the study that I did, there were 3 groups who did not heal. One was the group, and I can share the discoveries, it'll make a lot more sense. But one group was the group where they had their story, they were sticking with it. They'd been betrayed, That's their story. They did not heal. The second group, this was the group that was numbing, avoiding, distracting. So they ran to the doctor who put 'em on a mood stabilizer, anti-anxiety medication. They were emotionally eating, they were drinking, you know, whatever they were doing, they didn't heal. And you know, maybe they slept a little bit better 'cause they took something to help them or whatever, but they didn't heal. The third group, and I'm bringing this up because of the repeat betrayal with the same betrayer, This was the group where the betrayer had very little consequence. So maybe, you know, it was because of financial fear, religious reasons. That was a big one. Like they did all they could just to turn the other way, look the other, you know, look the other way. I saw two things with this group. Number one, a further deterioration of the relationship. And two, this group by far was the most physically sick.

Hmm. Let me ask you something about tissue and trauma and aches and pains, because right now I think we're— I think there could be a lot going on with midlife women, and it can be a little hard to sort out. We just, we just got a name for it in July of 2024. Dr. Vonda Wright said, okay, we're going to call this musculoskeletal syndrome of menopause. And now it does have a name where so many trainers and health coaches and PTs for years, we knew midlife women keep having these recurring injuries and more frequently than other people. But I also think that the issues are in the tissues. Is that not the saying? So how, how would someone, or could someone unpack, is this an emotional trauma or is this an injury?

Yeah, it's, you know, it's, it's such a, it's such a great question because because it's physical, mental, emotional, psychological, and spiritual. Like, there was— this was the second discovery in the study I made. There were three discoveries. The second was that there's this collection of symptoms, physical, mental, and emotional, so common to betrayal. It's now known as post-betrayal syndrome. So we've had, I don't know, over 100,000 people take our post-betrayal syndrome quiz to see to what extent they're struggling. And just about every countries represented, men and women, just about every age. And it's so fascinating because we've all been taught time heals all wounds, right? Well, I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that's not true. Um, you know, we count on time to heal it. We count on a new relationship to heal it, and it doesn't work. Like, for example, there was a woman in our program in her mid-80s, and she had a family betrayal from 70 years ago. Like, they didn't tell her she was adopted kind of thing. And that's betrayal, right? And so for 70-plus years, she had a gut issue. 2 weeks into understanding that this was a betrayal and how to heal from it, she healed from a 70-plus-year digestive issue. So this is what happens, even if the betrayal happened so long ago. I'm happy to share the symptoms if you wanna hear 'em.

I would love them.

Yeah. So now imagine, as much as, as much as I want you to pay attention to the symptoms, pay attention to these numbers too. Okay. So now imagine out of 100,000 people, 78% constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel a loss of personal power. 80% are hypervigilant. I mean, that's just exhausting walking around like that. 94% deal with painful triggers, which can be debilitating. The most common physical symptoms— these are so many of the women you work with— 71% have low energy, 68% have sleep issues, 63% have extreme fatigue. So they could sleep all night, they wake up, they're exhausted, their adrenals have tanked. 47% have weight changes. So maybe in the beginning they can't hold food down. Later on, they're emotionally eating. 45%, as I mentioned before, have digestive issues. The most common mental symptoms: 78% are overwhelmed, 70% are walking around in a state of disbelief, 64% are in shock, 62% can't concentrate. Let's just stop there. You can't concentrate. You have a gut issue. You're exhausted. Now you have to go work. You have to raise your kids. You have to take care of your aging parents. You have to figure out your own life, right? That's not even emotionally— emotionally, 88% experience extreme sadness. 83% are very angry. In one day, you can go back and forth between those two emotions how many times, right? 80% have anxiety. Just a few more. 84% have an inability to trust. Trust in yourself, trust in other people. Think about what that would do, right? 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they're afraid of being hurt again. 82% find it hard to move forward. 90% want to move forward, but they don't know how.

Oh my gosh. I'm gonna exhale all of that. Oh my gosh. Okay.

You know, I just wanna, uh, here's what's even more, two things, cuz I can't leave everybody on such a low. First of all, the, these symptoms aren't even necessarily from a recent betrayal. This could be from the parent who did something awful when you were a kid that was never cleaned up. This could be from the partner who broke your heart in high school. That person, so think about it, that person may not know, care, remember, they may not even be alive. And here we are with these symptoms today, right? The good news is you could heal from all of it. That was what the third discovery was.

Hmm. Oh my gosh. Okay. So what would you say, or what is the statistic if we know it on— I mean, all of us at some point in our lives have experienced some kind of a betrayal. You, you alluded to that before, that some of it is rather benign. I don't have a relationship with someone who was supposed to be on a podcast. She doesn't show, I don't really care. Now, I don't really want to book another hour with that person, but, you know, I— it doesn't hurt, you know, it's not a big deal. But, you know, the deeper it goes, many of us have been hurt in a way that we are most likely— or could we admit? Do we know? If we're asked, will we say we have?

Yeah, it's a great question again. And you know, it could be the big betrayals, a big B, right? But it could be the smaller ones too. Like for example, just imagine, this is just a classic example that just drives the point home. Imagine there's a little boy and he's 10 years old and he has some earth-shattering news to share with mom. And he races into the kitchen and mom's on the phone and she's like, shh, she shushes him. In that very moment, that little boy could have made that mean, I don't matter.

Right?

Now think about what happens. She's just on the phone call. He thinks he doesn't matter. He infuses it with some emotion, gets some feeling behind it, keeps that going long enough. And now your mind only wants to prove you right. So it's like, oh, okay. I didn't realize that's what you want to believe. We have between 60,000 and 80,000 thoughts a day. So, okay, no worries. I'll keep this running as a subconscious program. You go about your business. So think about it. Now imagine this boy has this feeling and this belief. It becomes a belief of I don't matter. Think about as he grows, what he'll choose to do for his work, who he'll choose to date, what he will tolerate, what he'll accept or expect from something as simple as a shush from his mom. Do you see? It's the meaning we give it. And when we don't unpack it and we keep it going, by the time we're an adult, we have so many programs that truly don't serve and that have created exactly what we have today. So if you're unsure what your beliefs are, take a look at your life. It's a complete representation of the beliefs we have.

Wow. Okay, so say somebody's into self-reflection and willing to take a look at that and look at the things maybe we don't love about our own lives right now and feel a little, okay, this isn't happening to me, I've actually chosen this in some way. Why do we stay stuck? Why do we keep reverting to the things that we, we actually don't want or don't feel we, we deserve or choose.

Yeah. It's so comfortable. It's so familiar, even if it stinks. I mean, it's, this is the kind of thing where I see people actually, out of the, the third discovery were that there are these 5 stages we go through if we fully healed. Most people stay stuck in stage 3, which is the scenario that I just described. That would be someone in stage 3. But what happens is when, when we're there for a while, we can't imagine being anywhere else. And then we, our thoughts are, I guess I must deserve this. This is who I am. And now if this is the energy we're putting out, well, like energy attracts like energy. So now we start attracting people and circumstances and relationships to confirm this is where we belong. And then think about it. Things like, let's say in betrayal, now you join that lame support group, you will actually sabotage your healing because you found your people. You're afraid to outgrow them. Here's where we may be healing and we will actually sabotage our healing because we're afraid to outgrow our betrayer. I mean, it's so common. And now because we're here longer than we should be, it feels so awful, but we can't imagine any other space right here, we start numbing, avoiding, distracting. So we do it for a day, a week, a month, right? Now it's a habit. A year, 10 years, 20 years. I can really see someone 20 years later and say, you know, that emotional eating or that drinking, do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? And they look at me like I'm crazy. They'd say it happened 20 years ago. All they did was lock themselves in stage 3 and stay there. And this is where most people stay for life. And they also, they're so afraid of changing because it'll create a shakeup. Everybody's used to where they stand, where they are. Everything sort of runs, quote unquote, right? So like, what's going to happen if all of a sudden I create this uproar, right? This, this healing from betrayal is a full-on reckoning. And most people are just too afraid to create that shift. And it's interesting because the betrayer was the one who made those decisions that created the damage. But very often the betrayed is like, oh, but I don't want to create a shakeup. So they, very often they cover, they cover for the betrayer.

Hmm. So what is the answer? How is it? How is it, girlfriend, that you were such an overcomer? Because everyone needs to go and listen to previous podcasts. We're not going to unpack the whole thing right now, but you, of course, you know, in multiple ways, you know, were the betrayed. But you, I would have to say, are most definitely one of the lucky ones who's turned it into a gift over and over again.

Yeah, I don't— I really don't believe in luck. I really don't think that has anything to do with it. I really looked at it like I don't have a choice. I mean, I had 4 kids, 6 dogs, a business, like I couldn't afford to check out. And I'm also one of those people that the, the feeling of what if is so much worse for me than doing something and failing at it. So I, I really looked at it like I couldn't have had all these betrayals just because I'm supposed to be the poster child for betrayal. That just doesn't feel like my— why I'm here. You know, there's got to be something good I can do with something so painful. And, and, and if you do, and when you do, it's trauma well served. It's, it's simply like, it's just a choice. And, and I have trained myself over the years that I would rather try something and fail— it's not fail, feedback, right? A million times than not do something and wonder, what could I have done? What could I have been? Who could I have helped? Like, that thought kills me. I would so much rather try something and be like, oops, that didn't work.

So beautiful and such a great— just an amazing message for your own circle there. But, you know, that of course is amplified out to so many. I'm dying to ask this question, but it begs another one. I mean, I want to ask who needs healing the most, the betrayed or the betrayer? Although that begs to say, in your experience, how often do the betrayers want to heal?

Yeah, you know, we have an amazing program for the betrayer. Certainly it's not gonna be every betrayer who would be interested in a program like this because you have to face yourself. And many people who betray are just unwilling or just not ready. So for the person who's like, I made a mess, I completely destroyed the heart, the trust of the very person that loves me the most, that I love the most. I mean, that person is ready for that reckoning too. And it's interesting because at first when I was asked over and over, do you have any programs for the betrayer? And I said no. And I really thought, ooh, is this gonna be too triggering for my coaches, for my community, for me? And I thought and I held off, but we created an entirely separate community for them and a whole different curriculum. And so there's no overlapping and possible triggering. But what's so interesting is I love working with them now.

Really?

They have the pad and the pen out there, like, what do I say? What do I do? What do I never say? What do I never do? And it's beautiful to watch these people completely transform. I mean, they are, they have shed their egos. They realize they have gotten so far away from who they truly are and who they're meant to be. And they are ready to intentionally and deliberately recreate themselves. I mean, it is so common for us to have our betrayed goes through our Reclaim program, our betrayer goes through our Rebuild, and they come out as two totally different people. Like, here's an example. We had a couple and in this case, he was the betrayer, she was the betrayed. Certainly not always the case. We've seen it every which way. And I was giving him the playbook. Really, you know, 'cause I understand it, right? And don't say this, don't do this, whatever. And he was following everything I was saying. And then I get the betrayed on a group call and she's like, I have to speak up. I have to say something. I don't know what he's doing in that program. He's better than the guy I met in college. I'm like, I'm like cheering 'cause I'm like, oh, he's listening. And the potential is there. And at first I was like, can betrayers really change? But I had seen it in my own relationship and then I I see it with all the betrayed. If they could change and transform to the level that they do, who am I to say that the betrayer can't make those changes too?

Wow. I love that. Okay. So I want to, I have to tell you, so total disclosure to everybody here. And many of you know, I also run a business podcast for our health pros and fitness experts. I was just talking this afternoon on a podcast about video testimonials for them. Is there an instance— so I'm dying to know, do your betrayers give you testimonials?

They do.

Do they?

There's the—

you know how often I had an in-person retreat just 2 weeks ago, and, and it would— there was, out of the, the group we had here, there was one couple a betrayed and a betrayer. And I mean, he was just— the gratitude, just, you saved my marriage, you know, and so grateful, the tears. When people realize and get back to who they're supposed to be and they get this beautiful opportunity of a second chance, whether it's with their partner or a second chance to do right Going forward, they get it, they get it, and they take it seriously. And what we see with the betrayed too, I mean, they don't just rebound from this. They, again, just like the betrayers do, recreate themselves to a version that is almost unrecognizable because they're so confident and empowered and healthy and healed and whole and strong because of what they went through.

Amazing. When I think about this as a problem, I almost think about it as an illness, like an addiction, like a pattern of behavior, which is what addiction is. And when people need to recover, I mean, that is like a saturated program. They go into recovery, they're in it, and just as long as they need. How, how does this work with betrayal? Best, best.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I would say it's interesting. Like we had a group call yesterday and the betrayed was there and her husband is the betrayer in the program we have for the betrayers. And she said we have done more in the past 3 months than in 31 years. And I guess the way I approach it, which may be very different, I'm a big believer in, yes, you need to clean up your trauma. But it's never an excuse to betray, ever, ever. And a lot of times the betrayed uses that as an excuse too. Oh, well, they're going through a lot. They have such trauma. It's like, yes, so do you. Did you make those choices? No. So I don't shame or blame, but I'm not easy on them either. Because betrayal is, I really think it's one of the most painful of the human experiences. Because this was the person, or these were the people who gave you a sense of safety and security. So when that's the person who takes it away, it's horrible. It's horrible. So yes, that person needs all kinds of help to figure out why they made those choices and how to do things differently. But that doesn't— that's no excuse to betray. No.

This is so interesting. So my brain keeps turning this over. I think I'm having a hard time wrapping around it. So listeners, if this is you too, I'm asking for all of us. All right. Like the first instance where the little boy and the mom on the phone, that was like a perceived betrayal.

Yeah.

Right.

Whereas, okay, infidelity, that was so reality. Is there a difference or not? Are they just one and the same? Betrayal, betrayal.

Yeah, there, there's a difference in, of course, let's say a child is sexually abused. I mean, things like that, or there's severe neglect or abandonment, you know, trauma, those things, those actions need a lot more cleanup than let's say the child who was shushed. But so much of it has to do with the meaning we make it. Our minds are so powerful. So powerful. So the boy in that instance who was shushed could have, you know, think about it. If you spend 50,000 of your thoughts every day on, I'm not worthy, I'm not lovable, I'm not good enough, I'm not this, I'm not that. And it becomes your belief and you are determined to make that like, no, no, no. You want this, like, this is who you are. You make this your story. You make this your personality, you make this your life. Of course you can have all kinds of health issues. Your body can't be physically healthy when that's what's going on. So, you know, while I would say, of course, the bigger traumas have a bigger impact, but I don't wanna negate the profound impact our own minds have over us, cuz it's huge.

You have this unique— so you've hinted at this, so I wanna kind of unpack this and then paint it. So you have like a track. For betrayed versus betrayer. But then, so in the instance of, for those of you, again, I'm basically, I'm giving you the trailer for the podcast you need to go listen to with Debbie before where we talked about it was one of the betrayals she endured was with her husband, but they since have come back together, renewed their vows. It's amazing.

I think they got married again. This was no renewal.

Oh, okay. I stand corrected. I love it. But you bring them back together then if, if they're both involved in the program. Talk a little bit about that and talk about like short, give me some fix right now as opposed to, you know, over an extended period of time.

Yeah. And here's the thing, when they both completely and totally heal, they may not be a match for each other. And, and so there's really no guarantee. And this is why we have a lot of people who come to us with therapy trauma because they've been to the most well-meaning counselors or therapists who sort of minimize what each other's going through just because the goal is to get them together. That's not our goal. Our goal is to get each of them to their highest and best because from that place you can both become a power couple. Right? But if, if you're both compromising who you're supposed to be or what the repercussions, the ramifications are of this, and you never feel heard, seen, valued, all of that, and you settle because you're afraid of what's going to come of it, that's a waste of your trauma. So, you know, we have the 5 stages that the betrayed goes through, and they do. And then for the betrayer, they become someone unrecognizable as well. So when those two meet up again, they're meeting up as two very different people. It's like, you know, instead of two halves coming back together, that whole you complete me thing, I can't stand that. So like, okay, it's like, I'll make you a healed enough half so that you could be okay with the other healed enough half. No, I want you to be a rock solid whole and then you to be a rock solid whole. And together you're a power couple.

I love that. What a great quote. Okay, we're going to, we're going to write that. Mic drop down. Thank you very much. Where can someone learn more about you? And is there a way— what is the best way for, for a friend, a loved one to refer or share this with someone that they might identify as could use it. Yeah.

You know, everything is at— and thank you— the PBT, as in Post Betrayal Transformation, thepbtinstitute.com. You know, it's funny because this is one of those things that you want to help your friend, but you're like, can I? Is it too much? Am I, you know, am I intervening too much? And so what a lot of people do is they'll say, oh, I saw this great TED Talk, and they'll share that. But, but really, if you love your friend, your whoever is struggling, and they just take a look at the site, let them see. Because so often, really what we find is people don't know there's a predictable way to heal. And when they know, oh, wait a second, I've been stuck for, you know, 30 years. You're telling me I can move through this in a matter of months? Yes, I can. It's just a game changer.

So good, so powerful, and you're doing so much good in the world. Thank you so much for sharing. Okay, everybody, you heard it here first, right? So all the links to connect with Debbie— she's also phenomenal on social media. She's there, she's just talking the real talk every single day, direct to camera. I promise you, and you're gonna love it. She's got TEDx talks that you may in fact want to link to, to a friend, hypothetically. Or, or for yourself, however you want to use that. And she's got a podcast as well. So all those links will be in the show notes, and your show notes for today will be at flipping50.com/personaldrama. Thank you so much. Thank you.

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