What Male Partners Don’t Know About Menopause (and need to)

Sorry to say this podcast episode is not for you, but I think you're gonna enjoy it anyway. And as I will let you know, spoiler alert, there's an accent involved and there is a guest with an accent. And you know, this is a male author of a book actually targeting males. Partners, people who love women who might be going through menopause, particularly perimenopause. So even if you are a woman in your 60s or 70s and you're post-menopause and that ship, you'd say, has sailed, stay with me. I think you're going to find that this moment in time that we're in, that this podcast is actually going to really shed some light on you you and I are in a moment in history that will never be forgotten. It's never coming again. So if you are a health coach or a trainer, this is also for you, I think. Really great information. But definitely, if you've got, you've got adult children and you're listening, you potentially within 5 years may have somebody who's going through early menopause. And/or maybe you've got children older than that, this book may be appropriate for a son or a son-in-law, and you and I are the way this book will be known. So I hope you enjoy it. I think many of the answers will be surprising. We're not talking about the physiology of menopause here. We're talking about the role it plays in the relationship. Between men and women and/or women and others who love them. So stay tuned. This one's a must listen. You're in perimenopause, menopause, or post-menopause, and you're not slowing down. You're just getting started. But the old rules don't apply anymore. The workouts that worked before, they're working against you now. The advice you've been given, incomplete at best. I'm Debra Atkinson, and I'm the founder of Flipping 50, the pioneer in fitness for women in midlife. For more than 40 years, I've been in the trenches with women just like you, and for the last 12, right here on this podcast, and, and the founder of Flipping 50: The Stronger Way app and membership. Welcome to Flipping 50 the Stronger Way, where science meets strength, where you'll find the tools, research, and real talk to build the body and the life you want in your second half. Each week you'll get evidence-based exercise and nutrition strategies, conversations with leading experts, and honest answers to the questions your doctor didn't get answers to in medical school and doesn't have time to answer in an appointment. This is your show. Let's get stronger. What does your partner know or not know, need to know about menopause and doesn't? That is really what this episode is all about. So I am interviewing an author of a book published literally this last week as we are releasing this live. It's always a little bit longer to actually get queued up our schedule, but it was a delightful conversation, even more so having discovered, oh my goodness, there's an accent involved. My guest today is Joe Warner. He's an award-winning journalist and bestselling author. His new book, Burning Up, Frozen Out: What Every Man Needs to Know About the Menopause But No One Told You, explains how men can better understand and support their partners through menopause while also taking better care of their own health. He is a former editor-in-chief of Men's Fitness, and Joe has worked in publishing and media for more than 20 years and is a regular guest expert on national and international TV, radio, and podcasts. And he's a fantastic interviewee, I will let you know. You can hear his passion about what it is that this book was at the beginning and where it evolved to and what it became about. So I think there's several layers, whether you are really interested in authoring a book, you have authored, or you wonder how authors get their ideas, inspiration, and how the book actually rolls out and evolves as it goes from start to a finished manuscript. But there's also so much here about what, from a man's perspective, don't men know about menopause and how does that feel? And what happens in a relationship, which of course we're, we're getting this from the author who's a male, and yet he is writing and interviewed many females and, and male experts as well along the way. So it's a really interesting episode. I think you're going to love it, and I hope you get your hands on the book, whether for yourself. I'm reading through it right now, so I did my research prior to doing the interview. But wanna read through it a little bit more carefully. But there is so much great relationship advice in it, almost scripts for what to say, how to rehearse. And it's not just in this instance. I think you too will find, "But wait, I could use that at work," or, "I could use that somewhere else." So I can't wait to hear your feedback and comments. As always, you can find me behind the DMs in Instagram if you want to let me know that you've listened to a recent episode and how it landed for you. Welcome, Joe Warner. Thanks so much for being here.

Thank you so much for having me. Really looking forward to talking.

Well, every one of my listeners knows I'm a sucker for an accent, and so that they're like, oh, she's just on the edge of her seat. And yes, It's true, I am. I had no idea, everyone, that I was in for this. I knew this was gonna be so great. First of all, I mean, let's just talk about this. Why did you write this book?

Well, I realized after 20 years of working in men's health and fitness media, I was editor-in-chief of Men's Fitness UK for a number of years, that I thought I knew an awful lot about health and wellbeing and fitness and happiness and nutrition. And I did, but only if you were a man. I was able to help you if you, if you were a man. But apart from that, I realized there was a massive gap in my knowledge and I had no understanding at all of female health and fitness. And my partner during pregnancy, there was a cyst discovered on one of her ovaries, which, long story short, everything was fine and our baby was born and everything's been absolutely great in the 5 years since. But there was a chance that she was going to have to go through a medical menopause at age 35. And I remember sitting there with the surgeon talking me through it and just being completely I mean, I'm not often speechless, as you'll probably find out from the course of this conversation. But I was because I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to do. And then afterwards, when in the course of doing some research to try and find out exactly what a male partner could do in this situation, I drew a blank. I couldn't find any information that spoke to me as a male partner of someone going through either medical menopause or perimenopause. And in the spirit of, well, I can't be the only man that feels this way and is confused and wants to know more about this. Entire area of life that is sort of a bit of a secret until you stumble into it blindly one day, right? When, when you can finally connect the dots and realize what's going on to your partner. I thought I'd write the book and because there must be other men that need a little bit of help and support and guidance as well.

Yeah, love it. And I think one of the things that I— we stumbled on in the green room before we actually went live was You know, who is this for? And of course it's for, for you and the partners and the spouses. But also you said something about secretly wishing that maybe women would read it.

Yeah, definitely. That's been the really lovely feedback so far. It's like the book's only been out, out a week, but I've had some lovely comments from, from women who have read it. I think they've probably bought it for their partner and started having a flick through before they've handed it over and just saying it's been, it's been great because the book is about perimenopause, but really it's about communication. It's about navigating the midlife maze. And although women are going through a very different and a lot harder journey than men, a lot of the challenges we're facing in midlife as a couple are similar. We've got— maybe we're raising children who need a lot of time and attention. Maybe we've got elderly parents who are more demanding than they have been. And I mean demanding in a nice way. They need maybe more care and attention, help around the house, for instance. We're also at our peak professionally with an awful lot of responsibility and pressure. And I think realizing— my goal with this book, Debra, was to make men realize that they're actually quite powerful. They might feel completely hopeless and in the dark, but there's actually a lot they can do to try and remove some friction from their lives and their partner's lives. And I love the fact that women have been reading the book and going, ah, that's really interesting, I've not thought of it that way. Because the women's books out there are plentiful and brilliant, sometimes they're, and rightly so, focused on the biology of what's actually going on behind the scenes, and sometimes lacking in the practical day-to-day advise of how do you talk about this, how do you de-escalate the conflict that's blown out of nowhere, how do you try and explain to a male partner who has no idea what you're going through what you're going through. Um, so I think that communication angle has been really nice. I had one lovely, uh, DM earlier today, a voice DM from someone I interviewed for the book, who said now she's actually got the book in her hands, her and her partner are reading it together. She's reading a few paragraphs and they're using it as a springboard to have a conversation about their own relationship. And it was absolute music to my ears because That's the goal, right? If one couple picks up this book and starts talking about what they're going through, then that's a win for me. Because as we all know, it's really hard sometimes to ask for help or bring up a difficult topic of conversation because you're so in the middle of everything, the middle of life. And sometimes it's not just a conversation about who's not done the dishwasher or who needs to go take the dog for a walk. It's a conversation about your last 20 years of your relationship, isn't it? So much caught up in it. So it's been lovely hearing that feedback that actually people are using it as a starting point to maybe make it easier to bring up some things that they're not happy with or want to improve in their own relationship.

Yeah, I think that was the thing that really stuck with me most is that I opened it expecting that maybe you were going to get into the physiology and the what is going on. And then what I was really drawn to is that, you know, here's how you resolve this conflict that has bubbled up, but there's something underneath it. And so you really just, say, okay, let's push pause. You give some— literally, you give some script, like, here would be good suggestions, these are good things to say, you know. And so don't escalate it, but let's figure out a way that we get to what's going on underneath this. Can we just push pause? Can we— I mean, some of that was just every single relationship you have should probably be doing that every single day. So maybe we look at menopause as just a great opportunity to revisit good habits we should all be thinking about anyway. So amazing.

I think that's so important. I think everyone— I saw there's a stat during the course of my research, it was something mad, like 97% of people rate themselves as excellent listeners. And it's like, have you been on the internet recently? Human beings are not great listeners. What most people are doing in a conversation are waiting for their turn to talk, right? This is just— we see it time and time again. And I think the one thing that stuck with me very early on in my research, which made me give those kind of scripts— and there's a list of phrases never to use in a conversation and phrases that could be more helpful— is that a lot of men were too afraid of saying the wrong thing, so they did nothing instead of making the effort and getting it wrong. Maybe they tried that a few times and were rebuffed or rejected. They'd sort of go into their shell, and nothing good comes from when one partner is being defensive or avoiding conversations. It's really simple. None of the advice in that communication section you mentioned is groundbreaking, but it's really useful to— for instance, I got a former police hostage negotiator to give me the advice on conflict de-escalation, because if anyone knows how to calm a very tense situation, it's going to be someone who's trying to get the robber out of the bank vault. Right. And it's really simple when you think about it. Avoid saying you always or you never in a conversation, because what you're turning is a minor quibble into a full-blown character assassination. But we do it, we get defensive. And it's not necessarily about what you can say or what you shouldn't say. It's about giving you and your partner the best chance of having a positive conversation. So that can be location, that can be timing. We go into all of this, just basically nothing revolutionary, but how can you shift the odds of what you're about to say landing really well and leading to a positive outcome and hopefully being the first of 20 conversations that get you back on the same page and not have that terrible conversation that sets you back a month and suddenly there's slammed doors and screaming again. Because I'm not trying to say for one second this isn't incredibly difficult, period. Of course it is. But I think sometimes men are shooting themselves in the foot rather than giving them the best chance of showing their partner they're there for the duration and they want to help. They're just too afraid of getting it wrong.

Mm, love that. Okay, so tell me this, because literally I don't know the answer to this one. What is it that you either realized, you noticed, you knew before you wrote the book, or did you discover this during the writing? What is it that men consistently get wrong about menopause or what their partners might be going through?

Yeah, it's a really great question, and there's a number of things, but first I'm gonna sound my not all men klaxon, right? Because sometimes this can come across as a sweeping statement. Yeah, but the one, the one thing, and I'm sure your listeners are going to be very, very familiar with this, but the one thing I heard time and time again from women was, I wish he'd stop trying to fix me. Men see perimenopause as a problem that needs to be fixed. And I think so much of the book and so much of the disconnect that I kept coming back to was men had good intentions but terrible execution. So they wanted to help, but their version of help was, I need to fix it. And men, I think, naturally are solutions orientated, which is great if you've got a broken drain pipe, but it's terrible if your partner's going through perimenopause because it's not— but by even suggesting that there's a problem can make that person feel like it's all on them, it's their fault. There's blame, there's shame, there's guilt, all of these emotions that are tied up to it. And we talk about that very early on in the book, like, this is no one's fault, this is not a problem to be fixed, you don't need to go all Bob the Builder. What you need to do is actually shift from that support mindset— it's a shift from the solutions mindset into the support mindset. And I think that's quite reassuring for a lot of men because they realize that the pressure comes off. You can almost see them stand a little bit taller when you tell them you don't— there's nothing there that needs to be fixed. So I think that was, that was the big one. I think the other thing that shocked me from day one, Debra, was just how little women knew about this. And that's obviously terrible and something that we're all working to try and do something about in our own small way. But weirdly, it was actually quite liberating for me because I went into this project thinking, what right have I got to talk about the perimenopause? What, you know, what should a man be doing? This is obviously a hugely important women's health issue. But then I spoke to doctors, GPs, endocrinologists, amazing experts who failed to recognize perimenopause in themselves. And it was like I said, it almost took the weight off my shoulders by going, actually, do you know what, I don't need to know anything here. I don't need to be an expert. Um, I'm just trying to find brilliant people who've got amazing information and that I can translate into what the average Joe can then start to implement into his life. So I think those were the, the two things. It was, yeah, that just the lack of awareness across men and women, and also that the frustration women were feeling by being treated like a problem, and that, that misalignment between good intentions and bad execution, which I think is a cause of an awful lot of household turmoil.

Okay, I'm going to ask you something. It's just real pure curiosity here with this one. So you, of course, are in the UK. If anybody— if that escaped you, that's where the accent comes from. So I'm in the US.

Have you—

so you have a lot of communications here as well. Have you seen a distinct difference in like what's going on in the UK in terms of awareness of menopause, either among women or the men who love them, and among the US? What's the difference or similarities? Hey, before we go any further here, it's time to have a little heart-to-heart about muscle. Unfortunately, I'm going to start with the three little words that none of us loves to hear as we age. It gets harder to gain muscle, but most importantly, it gets harder to support our mitochondria. Mitochondria are our energy central, and they produce all of the energy so that we can have the effective contractions from the weight training that we're doing. And look, it's not just about muscle size. And it's not just about discipline and doing the work. We have to have effective energy at the cellular level for the muscle to work efficiently so we can get the results effectively. Introducing Mitopure. Timeline developed Mitopure, a supplement containing urolithin A. Urolithin A supports a cellular process called mitophagy, Mitophagy helps the body remove damaged mitochondria. Think Pac-Man, taking out the ones that are damaged so that the good ones can have room to do their work. It recycles cellular components and supports healthier mitochondrial function overall. The benefits can improve your cellular energy, your muscle strength, your recovery. Hello, yes please. And therefore, healthy aging. Timeline has spent more than 15 years researching mitochondrial health, invested over $50 million in research, and conducted multiple human clinical trials. One study, participants experienced 12% improvement in muscle strength in 4 months with no change in their exercise habits. So I love this as a missing link for many of you doing the work, putting in the discipline, trying the willpower. But listen, it's not you. You just may need a little personal training friend. I love this, and I love personally the gummies, but it's up to you. Timeline's clinically proven formula is now available at a new lower price. Mitopure now starts at $99 with the exact same science and formula. And my listeners can still get 20% off when you go to timeline.com/Flipping50Show.

It's difficult to say, I think primarily because of our different healthcare systems. So a lot of the conversations in the UK are about how to get the NHS, the National Health Service, to be more on the front foot here. And we have an awful lot of conversations about women being medically gaslit, for lack of a for lack of a better phrase, not getting— not being offered treatment, being put on antidepressants. And I strongly encourage male partners in the book to go along to appointments, to be the advocate there, because we're asking— we're expecting women to advocate for their own health at a time in their life when they're least capable of doing so. And I think that's where male partners, not only at the onset of perimenopause, can start spotting the signs. I think men can be the scout because so many women don't know what's going on. If men can start to join the dots when it's very hard for the person person going through it to do it because of fear it might be something very, very serious, that they might— the woman might put their head in the sand or a little bit of denial. That's where men, I think, can save potentially months or years of conflict and confusion by, by spotting it. But to come back to your question, I think we've had a number of celebrities in the UK really make a big deal out of this, and we're seeing a lot more openness and transparency and willingness to talk about it. I think it's the same in the US. There's obviously a number of really high-profile names now talking about it. In terms of the differences, I'm still seeing men not joining the conversation on both sides of the pond, to be honest. And I think— I don't think it's a lack of empathy. I think it's a lack of education. I think a lot of men are probably still worried about getting it wrong, or perhaps don't want to put their hand up and say, I don't know, because they feel like they should know more. And there's maybe some embarrassment or guilt that they've not been brought up to speed. But then I think we need to remind everyone that this isn't taught. This isn't something that's discussed until you're in the room. It's, you know, I, in the book, it astonished me that menopause wasn't introduced into the British school secondary system curriculum until September 2020. This is less than 6 years ago, was it even being talked about at school? And then boys and girls are typically being separated. And I think It's easy for me to say, you know, the British, the stiff upper lip, we don't talk about sex and all these stereotypes, right? But we need to be talking about it because I really hope people buy the book before they're about to go through this, because that knowledge is power. You can see things coming, you can maybe talk about things before they arise. And I think that's such a powerful tool. So to answer your question, I think, you know, a lot of experts said to me that the UK is slightly further ahead in terms of talking about it and awareness. But, you know, I've not spoken to enough US experts or spent any time on the ground to say that myself. That's just what I'm hearing anecdotally.

Mm. Love it. Okay, so let's talk about this, this, and unpack it, because I think the stereotype would be that it's the intimacy issue and the libido and the, you know, the challenge that women have with comfort or the even wanting it that suddenly changes a relationship. And certainly not for the better. When you lose the intimacy, you lose a connection, you lose a piece of maybe what was you as a couple. How has that piece become such a challenge in this stage from, from, from a he said, she said standpoint, I guess, who are covering this?

Yeah, I talk about this a lot and I speak to a lot of men about this. And I think it's really helpful initially to separate whether or not a woman is comfortable having it or the perimenopausal symptoms are really stopping it, not just from a libido point of view, but from a physical comfort point of view. Right. Because that's a slightly different conversation to couples just being on different wavelengths and getting it wrong. I think on that latter case, again, the men I speak to and then when I spoke to their partners afterwards, it was the same thing as I was talking about before. It was the good intention but the wrong execution. And what I was hearing time and again, Debra, was maybe something hadn't— that there hadn't been intimacy for a while. So 11 o'clock on a Friday night, the man makes a move, you know, nudges his partner and says, well, now. And it's completely the wrong moment, it's completely the wrong time. And an expert explained this to me, is men— it's still— men are spontaneous. They can— when they're ready, they can just go. It's that, that, that sizzle versus the simmer that a woman would need. And when I explained this to men, and again, when I— when it was explained to me, your, your listeners and viewers will will know this, but men, it's all a light bulb moment, like, ah, okay, so we both want the same thing, but I'm approaching it in the wrong way. I'm being too abrupt, or there's too much pressure, or maybe because there's not been the communication around it, we're not quite hitting the, the need or the desire at the same time. And one man explained it to me very eloquently. He said, I just assumed there was something wrong with me or the relationship because sex was the one thing that had always just been fluid and natural and we never had to talk about it and we never had to— it was just there and it was great. And then when it's not, because that's such a seismic change, you just assume, well, something's broken rather than life just happening right and being pulled in different directions and not having time for yourself and time for each other. And the way I try to explain it to men in the book is quite often, again, sweeping statement, not all men, but a lot of men, when the intimacy or the connection is missing, they think they can get the connection back through sex, whereas the women I was then speaking to were saying, I can't have sex until I have the connection. And it's that, it's that mismatch, right, which I know you've talked about before and is a very common situation. I really hammered that home in the books. I think a lot of men need to know that. I think especially for men, so much about sexual prowess is tied up with ego, and it's what we're supposed to do. And then you layer in Hollywood and pornography and all these other things, and suddenly there's so much pressure on not just the man, on the couple. Well, something's not right. We're broken, whatever. And then it's really, really hard because the longer it's been, the harder it is then to reconnect. And we do— there's some little games and things you can do that we outline in the book to try and get you back on the same page with no pressure, no judgment, no explanation, just to remind each other of why you fell in love in the first place. And I'm really conscious that this sounds so simplistic and I'm oversimplifying everything. And of course, it's not that way. But my message is very much to men who read it, like, there is hope. I spoke to couples that had got through this transition who were reporting that the sex was better than ever because they'd been— that they were forced to be open and communicate their needs and desires with each other rather than just going through the motions. And it's difficult and it's awkward and it's embarrassing because sometimes you feel like you shouldn't have to talk about this, but without talking about it, the connection can go. Um, so it is a message of hope ultimately, like by getting through it, by talking about it, by being honest. And really important, I think, have the humor. I think that's the other thing I learned from the book. You need honesty and you need humor. You can't do it with both. You need both of those things because the honesty sometimes is too harsh. Just the humor. You need to be honest. Um, and yeah, speaking to couples who, you know, had tried new things or done things that they've not done for years, but they had to talk about it and they had to laugh about it. And then once you realize you actually do want the same thing, you're just approaching it from completely different avenues. I think it takes the pressure off because no one's feeling rejected. No one's feeling like they keep trying and keep getting rebuffed. It's all about— are you giving— again, like the conversations— are you giving yourselves together the best chance of a positive outcome here by the right time, the right setting, the right conversation, the right connection?

Mm-hmm. So good. Okay, so you are really tackling perimenopause. Did you talk to many in, in the book? Did you include anything about The next transition, meaning post-menopause, which can, I mean, have a whole different spin. And because every woman's journey is slightly different, some will not experience the symptoms that one does in perimenopause until, you know, a couple years after post-menopause. Did you break it up or did you speak to menopause kind of all as a collective?

We focused on perimenopause just because, I mean, the book— my publisher won't be happy with me saying this necessarily, but I kept wanting to do more and more and more because it started as a perimenopause book, but it quickly became about relationships and then it quickly became about wellness. So the book is divided essentially into 3, 3 main sections. The first is about knowledge, which explains what's going on, very, very top line, what men need to know. But it also covers what happens to men in midlife as well. So I felt it was important to make men aware that there are some changes going on. It's not the same as menopause in any way, shape, or form. I want to make that crystal clear. But there is— some men report a loss of sense of purpose, direction, motivation. I thought it's important to address that, to make them feel part of the picture, but also to help the empathy play, help them realize that them and their partner are in this together. So that's the first section called knowledge. Then there's the middle section called communication, which is how to talk to each other and to to doctors and other medical professionals. And then the final chapter, which could have been a book in itself, is called Power, which is the lifestyle intervention. So stress management, sleep, nutrition, and exercise. So once I'd sort of covered all of that, there wasn't really much scope to go into the rest of your life. But we do touch upon it right at the end. But this is the next chapter and how in Western in Western social systems, there's still that sort of terminal decline vibe about menopause, where in China and Japan it's the second spring. It's the chance of, you know, a rebirth in many ways. So we do allude to that. But to answer your question, we did focus really on this, that the perimenopause period, because that I felt is where we're seeing the kind of fork in the road for a lot of couples. Do they get through it or do they fall apart? And that's where the need was to get that knowledge up to speed.

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It's a really great question because I think what was reassuring— and it's not quite the answer, which I'll get to in a second— was just how Everyone said yes. Everyone I went to said yes, and everyone said this is needed, which is always good for a writer or an author, right? Where people are going, this is absolutely essential because men are such a big part of the piece. And I think it was that although it's incredibly a dark and difficult period, speaking to those couples who had come through it, who almost to a couple said they were happier than they had been before because they were forced to look at their relationship And I think so many people and couples, we're on the metaphorical treadmill, right? We're just sort of short-term firefighters because there's this problem here, this work, this home problem, whatever it might be. And we never really get time to step back and check in with ourselves. How am I doing? Like, am I coping or am I just muddling through? How are you coping? Because you know what midlife relationships are like, right? Sometimes it's less a married couple and more like the co-directors of a logistics company. You know, who's Who's doing this? And we're just constantly in firefight mode. And I think that the aha moment would be, if you can crack this, then you're unlocking a potentially far superior second half of your life. And that's the message I really wanted to get across, that no matter how bad or dark or dangerous the situation is right now, there can be a way through. But that's never going to happen unless, unless the male partner steps up. And I, I think that it's so important to realize there's an awful lot that you can do to support, but it all starts by stop making the mistakes that so many men are making. Again, not from a lack of empathy, but from that lack of education. It's just not knowing what to do. And if you don't know what to do, you can't support if you don't understand, right?

Truth, truth. Yeah. Oh man. Okay, so from the men who've read this and maybe given you some feedback, are they telling you like what is the most valuable part for them, or are they just in overwhelm?

I think I almost feel like overwhelm is the starting point of anyone who's going to read the book, right? Because, because you're— yeah, I'd love to think some couples are going to pick this up and flick through it well ahead of, well ahead of the symptom. But we all know most people start to respond to, to a situation when it becomes problematic. So I think a lot of people's first initial reaction will be, oh my God, I'm so over my head here, what, what do I do? Which is why very early on we set out, it's not your fault, no one's broken, this is a situation, this is a life transition, and there is that way through. So that's been the initial reaction. It's almost relief, I guess, for lack of a better phrase, that they don't have to fix anything. They just have to do more of the simple things. And I say to men, your first job isn't to do anything. You just have to listen. That's all. You are just basically sitting there and taking on board what's happening. And that's why I said earlier, you know, words to avoid: never, always, you just need to, you should, or being dismissive. You can't possibly have a feeling of insects crawling under your skin. What 'What are you talking about? You're mad.' Because men don't go through the symptoms, I think there's a disconnect. But no, it can't possibly be that bad. You're overexaggerating again. Or, 'Well, why is she suddenly blowing up over this? It never bothered her before.' And is that explanation that the hormonal changes— I don't know if I'm allowed to swear on this, but you might have to bleep it out. But the way I explain it is like her bullshit barrier is gone. All this— yeah, she's not just suddenly getting cross. With you about this. It's that she was tolerating it before and she's not tolerating it now. And I think it's all of these— it's pennies dropping constantly, is what guys have told me. And almost all of them in a reassuring way, like, ah, that's why. Ah, that's why. Because I think most men are coming to the book looking for answers. That it's not as though they're immediately, right, here's my 10-point action plan to fix our relationship. They're like, what WTF is going on? How? I don't understand, right? So So I think that that's probably been the most common, but also the nicest from my point of view, that it's doing its job of making men just slow down. And all you need to do is listen, because the first thing your partner says to you might not be the real issue. It might be the fifth conversation, the sixth conversation. And this is where men tend to kind of, oh, I really wanted a quick fix for this, or I really hoped it. And it's like, patience. You need to be quiet and you need to be patient. And I think once you accept that's the way through, everything then can fall into place. It's when you try and rush it or treat it as something that it's not, then that's where some of the problems can be compounded and exponentially worse.

Wow. Yes. So glad that you wrote this book. And I think it's like life-changing, game-changing just to have to have a man in the room talking about it openly. And I think from where you came from, the perspective of, I don't have all the answers, like, I'm not a doctor or researcher who wrote this from a clinical standpoint. I'm, I'm a guy who loves a girl and we're trying to figure it out together. And I think that's like a movie line, but we'll use it.

Where most people are though, I think that's where most No, most men are confused. And as I said, I'll give one more example of that good intention but the poor execution is when I talk about exercise in the book, you know, we all know that strength training and HIIT and LISS is really important, especially for women in midlife, especially with bone density loss, with muscle mass loss. You know, your protein is your pension. You need to be making sure that you're doing all these things. And a lot of men were saying, well, I try to take her to the gym with me, or, you know, I bought some dumbbells and said we can work out together. And the women were saying, I see him however many hours a day, my exercise time is my time. I need it. What I need him to do is to do the laundry or to do X, Y, and Z. So I've got 2 hours whenever on a Saturday or whenever it is to go to the gym, to go for a walk, to bang my head against the wall, whatever it is that I need to do in that moment. And again, men, we know our way around the weights room, we know what to do, we can help there. Yes, we can. But actually what is really helpful is doing more of the domestic stuff so you, so you can reinvent time for her. I've got the kids, I've handled this, I'll do whatever it is. You've got Saturday, go and do whatever you want to do. Because as you know, and the research backs this up, women are so good at putting themselves last because there's always something that needs to be done and it's really hard for women And the research again backs this up. Common reasons not for exercising in midlife: guilt. There's too many things that need to be done. I don't deserve it. All of this we hear time and time again. And it's another area where men can make a profound difference by giving her the space. I'm like, I was almost going to say the word permission there, but that's the wrong word. It's the opportunity to go out and have that time, whether or not it's brunch, whether or not it's exercise, whatever it is. You can only really truly get the stress-releasing benefits of that time if you feel like you're owed it. You don't want to be in a rush. You don't want to feel like I should— there's other things I should be doing. So I think that's another example of men trying to help, but, you know, missing the bullseye and shooting themselves in the foot.

A beautiful, beautiful story. So the book, you all, if you don't have your hands on it yet and want to, it's Burning Up, Frozen Out: What Every Man Needs to Know About Menopause But No One Told You. Thank you so much, number one, for being here, but also for writing the book so everybody is dying to know, is there a next one? I mean, and tell me a little bit about what else you've written. How distinctly different was this from other topics that you've written on?

Yeah, it was completely different. And I think like so many people in this situation, I think it's like when people start a business or start a podcast, I think you go into it and you're naive, you don't quite realize it, because if you knew, you probably wouldn't do it. And I think that naivety, and possibly with a more positive spin on it, that curiosity is really quite powerful. I think my background as a journalist, as you say, I'm not an expert in any of this. My job, and my job has always been to find the experts, try and ask them some brilliant questions, and then distill and translate that advice, that research into applicable information for the average guy and the average girl. So I think, yeah, there were certainly moments in the process of writing the book where, I mean, I was so out of my depth, but all you can do is keep asking questions, right? And then you find out what is important, what is relevant. So it was completely unlike anything I'd done before. I mean, it's by far the most satisfying and rewarding project I've ever worked on. I've been really lucky to work on a number of amazing media projects. In terms of what's next, I'm actually writing another book at the moment, which is— I guess it's tied to menopause because it's about families and it's about communication, but it's actually a guide for fathers on how to raise boys in the 21st century. So it's— I think we're the first generation— I feel like certainly that I'm the first generation in history who is raising a son through a childhood that I didn't experience. You know, my childhood wasn't that different to my father's. It wasn't that different to his grandfather's. I mean, there was color TV and more sugary snacks, but we were still playing outside. Video games were nascent at best, whereas my son is going through a digital screen-first childhood. And we're a generation of fathers trying to navigate this with no prior experience. And for me, that was absolutely terrifying because again, you, you, you can see how young boys are— we're going so off topic here, so I'll keep it really short.

No, it's okay.

How young boys are seeking out certain figures on the internet for, you know, if I'm going to be diplomatic about it, because there is that— what does it, what does it mean to be a man in, in the 21st century? And I think a lot of fathers, a bit like how I felt there must be a lot of partners really struggling with, with perimenopause, I think there's a lot of dads struggling with fatherhood. So it's about raising kind, resilient, empathetic boys. It's about, you know, showing, leading by example and trying to do more of the basic things right. But Debra, to be honest, it's another book about communication. I know I shouldn't be saying this, but that's what it essentially is. And I think that's where I feel like the most important work is to be done because we could be talking about any given number of scenarios. But if you can't communicate how you're feeling or what you want or what you need, then you're going to go through it alone.

Beautiful. And every, every, almost, I should say, not every, we can't say that, but almost every listener here is, you know, in some way a parent, a grandparent. And so what you just said may have felt very off-topic. I think to every listener it felt still very in topic with where she is in her life and what things are important to her as she— because we're watching this, you know, in a second generation, we're watching, you know, the these grandchildren like have screens and have so many gadgets that are electronic in their nurseries. It's like, oh my gosh, there was this talking giraffe the other day that I was creepy. I'm like, oh my gosh.

Research is there. And I should also caveat by saying, although this is a book about fatherhood and raising boys, I mean, that's the hook, right? But in the way that I'm hoping women read my book on perimenopause, I'm hoping mothers read this because yes, there are some biological differences the research suggests in what boys, especially young boys, need growing up and how boys communicate and how they find their feet and their place in the world. There's still an awful lot of overlap between how we just raise kids in general. When you mention screen time, when you see some of the stats and the research around resilience, around attention span, these are problems that we are going to have to deal with not just as parents, but as a society. And I think the more we can get all of us, every single person listening or watching this, we want our children to thrive. And that is going to be incredibly difficult. Where you look at just how much technology has changed in the last 3 years, right? We've got no idea of what's going to happen in the next 5, 10, 15 years. But the one thing I don't know anything about what's going to happen. But the one thing I do know is that if we put our heads in the sand, we are in trouble. We need to be aware of what's coming. Again, it's some amazing experts who already contributed, and none of the advice is necessarily groundbreaking. It's just presenting it in a way that makes people go, of course, that's what I need to be doing. Because I think with social media, you know, we're seeing the perfect partner, we're seeing the perfect parent, the perfect mom, the perfect dad. We're comparing ourselves to all these narratives online that may bear very little resemblance to what's actually happening. And I certainly have a lot of conversations with my partner about, we do, we got that wrong, we got that wrong. And I spoke to expert who said, Joe, if parents are getting it right 25% of the time, you're winning. And again, it's that reassurance that this is hard. We're navigating something we've never, we've never navigated before. But if the heart, if the heart is there, then we're giving ourselves the best chance of, of getting through it, not only for our kids but for us as well.

Amazing. Thank you so much for your time. Everywhere books are sold, I would imagine they can get their hands on Absolutely.

And I am giving away a free chapter, which is the chapter all about— it's called Men, Mojo and the Midlife Crisis, which basically talks about male midlife and basically sets the scene for what your partner is going through, although it's not the same thing. So if you want to download that and pass that on to your partner, you can get that at burningupfrozenout.com.

Perfect. Thank you so much for being here.

Thanks for having me.

On Flipping 50 the Stronger Way is for educational and informational purposes only and not intended as a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always consult your physician or qualified healthcare provider before beginning any exercise program, making changes to your diet, or adjusting any medications or supplements. Individual results may vary. Debra Atkinson and Flipping 50 are not responsible for any injury or adverse outcomes resulting from information presented on this podcast.