Why Working Harder Stops Working After 50 (And What to Do Instead)

Quick heads up before we dive in. Enrollment for the Flipping 50: The Stronger Way is open all month long, and you can still save $100 on annual membership. That's a total savings of $379 compared to paying monthly. Inside, you'll find 12-week strength training programs, plus dozens of yoga, Pilates, mobility, balance, stability, core, corrective exercise, agility, power, and recovery all designed specifically for women in midlife and beyond, all evidence-based and waiting for you no matter what life is throwing at you in this moment. This isn't just about longevity for someday later. It's about feeling stronger, moving better, and having more energy today. The link is waiting for you in the show notes. I'd love to welcome you inside. Quick heads up before we dive in. Enrollment for the Flipping 50: The Stronger Way is open all month long, and you can still save $100 on annual membership. That's a total savings of $379 compared to paying monthly. Inside, you'll find 12-week strength training programs, plus dozens of yoga, Pilates, mobility, balance, stability, core, corrective exercise, agility, power, and recovery all designed specifically for women in midlife and beyond, all evidence-based and waiting for you no matter what life is throwing at you in this moment. This isn't just about longevity for someday later. It's about feeling stronger, moving better, and having more energy today. The link is waiting for you in the show notes. I'd love to welcome you inside. Quick heads up before we dive in. Enrollment for the Flipping 50: The Stronger Way is open all month long, and you can still save $100 on annual membership. That's a total savings of $379 compared to paying monthly. Inside, you'll find 12-week strength training programs, plus dozens of yoga, Pilates, mobility, balance, stability, core, corrective exercise, agility, power, and recovery all designed specifically for women in midlife and beyond, all evidence-based and waiting for you no matter what life is throwing at you in this moment. This isn't just about longevity for someday later. It's about feeling stronger, moving better, and having more energy today. The link is waiting for you in the show notes. I'd love to welcome you inside. You want excellence. I want excellence. And yet we have to define what is excellence and how we get there. And whether we're talking about excellence in body composition, which I don't really think is the end game for most of us. We want that because of what we believe it will get us or make us feel like. I'm gonna let that sit in. That was a pregnant pause for you. But it truly is, for most people, when I've ever asked as a coach, "What do you want? What are your biggest goals?" It's often weight loss or it's, "I want to be toned," or, "I want to look better." And it's almost always a look. But that usually, asked again and again, and, "Why do you want that?" and, "Why is that important to you?" usually ends up in being something else entirely. A feeling, an ability. Um, it puts a fear to rest. So whatever excellence you want, whether in your job, your relationship, your body physically, or you want excellence in aging, let's approach this podcast with that lens and tune in because I think you're gonna love this one. You're in perimenopause, menopause, or postmenopause, and you're not slowing down, you're just getting started. But the old rules don't apply anymore. The workouts that worked before, they're working against you now. The advice you've been given, incomplete at best. I'm Debra Atkinson, and I'm the founder of Flipping 50, the pioneer in fitness for women in midlife. For more than 40 years, I've been in the trenches with women just like you, and for the last 12 right here on this podcast and, and the founder of Flipping 50: The Stronger Way app and membership. Welcome to Flipping 50: The Stronger Way, where science meets strength, where you'll find the tools, research, and real talk to build the body and the life you want in your second half. Each week you'll get evidence-based exercise and nutrition strategies, conversations with leading experts, and honest answers to the questions your doctor didn't get. Answers to in medical school and doesn't have time to answer in an appointment. This is your show. Let's get stronger. We're going to talk about excellence today. And you may wonder, "What? What? Like excellence in my morning muffins, in my coffee, in my walk, in my body comp?" It could be anything. And really, that is the whole point. And of course, I'm looking at it for you in the lens of optimizing your aging, changing your relationship potentially with lifting weights, how to do it, when to do it, why to do it, your mindset, and wanting to do the things that will get us the optimal health and the happiness that we actually want. Without sacrificing, I think what we think of is pleasure. We're sacrificing pleasure in order to get what we want. I think so many of us believe that we have to struggle. My guest today might squelch all that. Brad Stulberg researches, he writes and coaches on performance, well-being, and sustainable excellence. He's the bestselling author of The Practice of Groundedness, Master of Change, and co-author of Peak Performance. Stolberg regularly contributes to The New York Times, and his work has been featured in The Wall Street Journal and The Atlantic, among other outlets. He serves as the co-host of the podcast Excellence Actually and is on faculty at the University of Michigan. He lives in Asheville, North Carolina. Carolina. You will find him also on Instagram, and I highly recommend you go follow him just for a brief positive quote, a thoughtful, mindful quote for the day. It's not gonna trigger you, but it may inspire you. And you'll find him at @bradstolberg, and I will put that link in the show notes. But let's dive into this because I believe we had a really great conversation, and I think that you will pull away from this with the idea of reflecting on your own thoughts about what success means, what it looks like, not just in one area of your life, your physical fitness, but in all areas of your life, what that looks like and If you can get curious, you'll hear us talk about that. If you can get curious about why you have the thoughts you have now, how they got there, and ask yourself whether they're serving you and you want to keep them. I would love to know after this episode if it's been helpful. How? Let me know you loved it. And if you would please share this episode with a friend or two or three. It really helps us to spread the word for you and I to be surrounded with more women who are like us and who want to age powerfully or in excellence, whatever that means to you and I. We need community. Brad, thank you so much for being here.

Thanks, Debra. It's a pleasure to be joining you.

So of all things that we come across in social media, friends, this is a good one. So this is one of those things that caught my eye, and then I went on to read another post and another post. And you know how I tell you don't get lost in the scroll? I did. And yet, you know, sometimes you walk away not feeling better. In this case, the opposite was true. So that is why I felt compelled to ask Brad to be here. You also have a very recent book. When was that published and how is it being received?

The book came out at the end of January. It's called The Way of Excellence, uh, and I'm thrilled to say that it's being quite well received. I'm sure not by everyone, but by most of the people that I hear from, uh, it seems to be taking on a life of its own. And, um, really what makes me so proud and happy is I've heard from elite athletes in men and women's sports and elite coaches, but I've also heard from so many people in more traditional walks of life, knowledge workers, parents, parents, volunteers in one's community, artists, people who just want to be fit as a hobby that they're benefiting from the book. So if I can write something that the best in the world find resonant and that me in my own community finds resonant, then I'll take it.

Mm-hmm. So did you have somebody in mind when you were writing? Like, who were you writing to or for?

I, whenever I write, but particularly for this book, I write first and foremost for myself. So I use the page as a way to figure out questions that I have and that I'm asking in my own life. And this question of what does excellence truly mean and how can we aspire toward it in such a crazy and chaotic world is really a guiding question in my life. It's how I try to work as a craftsperson. It's how I try to parent my kids. It's how I try to be in relationship with my wife and on and on and on. So I was really writing for myself. And then what I'll do with all books, and I did it with this book as well, is I'll pick someone whom I really admire and look up to, and I'll say that the quality of the craft has to be so good that if such and such person were to come across the book, I think they'd like it. And for this book, ironically, that person was Steve Kerr, the coach of the Golden State Warriors, um, 9-time NBA champion, 2-time Olympic gold medalist as coach of Team USA. And just someone who I've admired, not just for his talent as an athlete and a coach, but for his integrity and how he lives his values. And it just so happened that a couple months before the book came out, I got put in touch with Steve Kerr and I was able to send him a manuscript. And he read it and he emailed me back and said like, this is it. And that's the peak of my professional career was that moment.

Hmm. Very cool. I love it. You also wrote something just really recently and I'm like trying to scroll the, capture the exact caption. So just correct me because I'm avoiding direct eye contact because I'm literally scrolling while we're on. But it was something like the secret sauce is having fun.

Yes. Like I write that having fun is the greatest competitive advantage there is. And I think that that is a misnomer. One of the many misnomers about excellence is that people think that in order to achieve one's potential, you have to suffer. And whether that is to achieve one's potential in the gym, to achieve one's potential at work, even in relationships like the, the helpless romantic, right? It's all suffering. And what I found time and time again in my research and reporting is that that's just nonsense. Uh, it might play well in certain corners of the internet, but it's so far removed from the truth. The best performers in whatever field domain they're in, they learn to have so much fun while working hard. So they 100% work hard, and sometimes you do have to endure pain and discomfort, but the totality of the journey and the totality of the path ought to bring joy. So the chapter in the book that I reference in that post is one in which I argue that joy and intensity can coexist, and in the best performers, they always do.

I love that. So I'm gonna try to articulate a question here that really, I think you say that people are avoiding or afraid of failure. They're afraid they won't excel. And so they don't even try. Like, I'd rather not even get partway there. I just—

I'm—

fear of failure is really a thing. Do you think that it's more the fear of failure— and correct me if that's not the term that you would use— or is it the fear of that this is going to be such hard work, so much insurmountable work which is it that we tend to avoid more?

I think it depends on the person, is the honest answer. And I think it's probably a combination of both. I think that the answer to the fear of failure is to acknowledge that essentially everything worthwhile in life lives on the other side of facing that fear. If you're in high school and you have a crush on someone, you're terrified that if you ask them out, they're going to say no. But eventually you got to shoot your shot. If you want to join a gym for the first time at age 60, but you're scared because you've never trained in that environment, well, eventually you got to just rip off the Band-Aid and step into the arena because on the other side of that might be an incredible community in strength and joy and satisfaction and all these things. So I think that what happens is we become so protective over our egos And this is, this is a learned behavior, right, throughout adulthood. But I often think about the curiosity and joy a child has when he or she is learning how to walk. And they just keep falling and they're falling in front of everyone. And then they get right back up and they try again because they realize that like the curiosity to figure out what it would be like to explore the world on two feet outweighs any fear of failure. And they don't know that people might be judging them. They're not concerned with what's on social media or if anybody is laughing behind their back. They're just like, I want I want to walk. And that's our natural state, right? Like, that's how we came into this world. And then as we, as we get older, we have all of these status games and social pressures and all of these things that can build up an ego, and with an ego, a fear of failure. And I just think like, we have to get over it. Because the most interesting people, the people that we admire most, if you were to ask yourself, just listener, who think of people you admire most, my guess is that they've all, one, they've all failed, and two, they all have had to take big swings and face their failures. To accomplish the things that you admire about them.

Yeah.

As for your second point about— I'll summarize and say like a fear of discomfort. I think that the trap there is when you take a really big goal and you think about it all at once versus breaking it down into its component parts. So a huge goal of transforming a lifestyle and being able to run a 5K and lose 25 pounds or whatever the goal might be. That feels daunting. But saying, I'm going to sign up for a gym and I'm going to walk 25 minutes a day for a month, and then I'm going to reevaluate, and then maybe I'm going to walk 30 minutes a day, and then maybe I'm going to jog for 5 minutes at the start of the walk. That's how you get to the 5K or the marathon or whatever it is. So I think the trap there is when we, when we take big goals, but we don't break them down into their component parts, because the path to accomplishing any big goal is to break it down into the smallest parts possible and then focus on being really consistent with those small parts.

Beautifully said. Yes. Okay. So let's, let's frame this for my listeners. So many of them are women who were successful by pushing harder, by doing more. I mean, women are notorious for this, outworking everybody around them, constantly thinking about what I can do for somebody else. What do you think is the biggest mindset shift required when that strategy stops working in midlife? And I'm gonna almost rephrase my question because it might be a small mindset shift that actually makes a big difference. But what is the mindset shift that might be required for her to get what she wants without that pushing harder, doing more? Because it's it's right now causing adrenal issues for most of them.

Yeah, so I have, um, I have two that are related and that I want to share. But first, what I'll say is, um, you're speaking to my core readership. So my, my core readership are women that push really hard, and I think the, the women part is because women are just smarter than men and I write pretty smart stuff. This is true. Like it's not the BS self-help books that all the dudes buy, all the bros buy. And if, like, if you were to look at my core readership, like, it tends to be elite women performers. So artists, athletes in business. And I think the smarts has something to do with it. What I'll say is that it's often harder to hold yourself back than it is to push if you are a Type A ambitious person, for sure. The two critical mindset shifts. The first is that self-discipline and self-compassion can coexist. So if you want to attain your goals and if you are ambitious and driven, you have to have self-discipline. Anyone that tells you otherwise is full of it. It requires self-discipline. However, if you cannot be kind to yourself at the same time, then your self-discipline will not be sustainable. Because as we just talked about, stepping into the arena, facing discomfort, facing failure is hard. And if every time you misstep, you beat yourself up and the answer is just push harder, you're gonna burn out. There's no way you're gonna last. So it's not, let's all hold hands and sing kumbaya, but it's also not, let's kill ourself all the time. It's let's push hard in a way that aligns with our values. And we have to learn to be kind to ourselves and to have our own backs. The second mindset shift, which is a corollary of the first one, is that stress plus rest equals growth. You cannot grow without recovery. This is true for a physical muscle. It's true for intellect. It's true for creativity. It's how relationships evolve and grow. You have to take on challenges, put yourself in uncomfortable situations, push hard, and then allow for recovery and reflection.. And so often Type A, I call them pushers, Type A pushers, they're really good at the stress part. They're really good at the taking on challenge and the pushing part, but they neglect the recovery. And when you're younger, you can get away with this, but as you get older, the role of recovery becomes so much more important. So the easiest way to explain this, and I think the simplest use case is if you think about how to make a muscle stronger in the gym. If you go to the gym and you pick up a way too heavy weight, you're going to injure yourself. So the first step is you got to find the right weight. Now, even if you find the perfect weight, if you go to the gym every day and you lift that weight as hard as you can and you never allow for rest and recovery in between, the muscle is going to atrophy. It's actually not going to get stronger. It's going to get weaker. The way that you make a muscle in your body stronger is by stressing it at the right level of challenge. Followed by rest and recovery. And the gains, they don't actually happen in the gym. They happen when you sleep. They happen during the recovery period.

Right.

This is not just true for a physical muscle. This is true for every element of our life. We, we want to take on challenges. We want to push. We want to celebrate that about ourselves. And we have to acknowledge that a part of growth, an integral part of growth, is also stepping back and allowing time for ourselves to renew and replenish.

Beautifully said. And to every listener here who found their way here and you've gone through the Hot Not Bothered 10-Day Challenge, so many of you started there, you got on then to something else and something else. But the challenge that we run is not the kind of extreme boot camp where you're exhausted and you need a vacation after day 11. But it is, I'm going to give you a smaller amount of thing to do but you're going to rest and recover. The challenge is don't do more. You're going to think you should, but don't do more. We're trying to reset because whatever you're doing right now is not working. And inevitably, day 3, somebody is saying, I— exactly what you said— I'm asking if I should do more, if this is enough. And, and it's, you know, let's just see how you are at 10 days because You can always go back to what's not working, right?

So it requires, it requires a real leap of faith. And I think what makes this leap of faith easier is this mindset shift. So even if you are someone who is hyper-ambitious and driven and all you care about is attaining your potential, I would still say that you need to rest. And for that person, the mindset shift is not to think about rest as something that is separate from their work or separate from living a big and full life. And to think about rest as an integral part of the work and an integral part of living a big and full life. If you look at the best athletes, they take recovery every bit as seriously as they take their workouts. Yeah.

Yep. It's a job for sure. I love it. Okay. How do you distinguish between lowering your standards and creating a healthier definition of excellence as we age? And I think a lot of women or potentially hear me say, "No, eat more, exercise less. You know, take another day before you do that next hard workout," and they hear, "Oh, I have to settle for less fitness." And that's not at all what we're saying. We're saying you're going to get it if you do these things. But I think there is that, you know, thought that, "I've got to lower my standards and just get used to this body that hormone changes have given to me. How do you reconcile that? This episode is sponsored by the Flipping 50 Menopause Fitness Specialist. It is the framework that we designed our entire membership and program based on. Since 2013, I've been developing that after 30 years of working with women in midlife. That was born, and in 2018, we rolled out the Menopause Fitness Specialist to train other fitness and health health pros on how to actually prescribe exercise. Here's where we're going next, in case you want to get started now, that we're actually training physicians on exercise prescription, knowing they get very little of it in medical school, and hoping that it also bridges the gap for you who may be a fitness or health professional, or want to be, who works with women in menopause, because there is so much demand and so much room for you right now. If you are working with women in menopause but not getting all the results, don't have a reliable, predictable framework that gets you results over and over that people know, like, and trust, come and talk to us. We'll put the link in the show notes for today. That's the Flipping 50 Menopause Fitness Specialist. And if you want to head on over to fitnessmarketingacademy.com, it's where we have all of the content dedicated to you, health and fitness pros.

The way that I define excellence is involved engagement in something that matters, that aligns with your values and goals. So what I would say is involved engagement means paying close attention and being responsive to your environment and having a sense of focus and presence. Something worthwhile can be whatever big project you have in your life. It can be run your first 5K or marathon. It can be you want to be fit to play with your grandchildren. It can be you want to stay in your job until you're 75 or 80. It can be make a beautiful piece of art or put out an album or write a book. It doesn't matter what the goal is. It's just got to be something that you find worthwhile. And that's excellence. Like, excellence is the process and the result takes care of itself. If you pay close attention and you're focused and you do it the right way and how you define the right way. So I would actually say that this notion of doing a little bit less and settling is, is kind of nonsense. If the— well, let me reframe. If you want to be excellent at training yourself into the ground and pushing yourself into the ground, then yes, doing less is a bad idea. But that's not most people's goal. Most people's goal is, again, to be a better parent, a better grandparent, a better partner, a better employee, a better executive, a better athlete. And a big part of that involved engagement and paying close attention is realizing that as your body changes over time, you have to evolve your approach with it. And that's actually integral to high performance. That's not like, that's not giving up on high performance. That is continuing to be a very high performer. Um, and again, the hardest thing for Type A pushers is not to work hard. It's to be able to step back and rest. Um, something that my strength coach always says is that there is a big difference between training for performance and health and exercise addiction. And sometimes we confuse those two things. Um, and I think if the goal is training for performance and health, you have to make yourself uncomfortable, not just in the gym by pushing hard, but you also have to make yourself uncomfortable by taking the extra day off from time to time.

Yeah. Yes. So well put. Yes. And I know that there's a portion of people listening who can identify with that one.

And it's hard. Like, I'm a, I'm a pusher. I have no problem burying myself in it, at work, in the gym, like that, that is very easy for me to bury myself. It is much harder for me to rest and recover. And again, you write the book you need. So like the reason that there's a whole chapter on renewal and recovery in this book is because I need that chapter as much as anyone. Yeah. But the more time that I spent in the research, in reporting on greats across all these different fields, the more I realized that rest is a discipline. Like, it doesn't come easy to them either. Mm-hmm. Um, but just like the hard work is a discipline, it takes discipline to rest, but it's a very important one.

Amazing. You write a lot about identity and growth. So what advice would you give to, to a woman who's listening and her body is not responding the way it always has for her, and she feels like she's losing a piece of her identity?

Yeah. Okay. So this is my favorite, probably my favorite part of the entire book. And, and, and I, I, I'm giving a lot away here, but please still, still read it. But we'll go, we'll go deep on this because I just love this metaphor. So I've come to think about identity like a house. And the foundation of the house are your values, the things that you hold most dear. Things like family, creativity, ambition, respect, honesty, integrity, wisdom, health. Doesn't matter what they are. Different people have different values, but they are core to your being. They have nothing to do with your accolades or what you've achieved. They define who you are as a person and how you want to show up in the world. That is the foundation to your house. On top of that foundation, you can construct a house that has multiple rooms. So there can be a parent room, there can be a leader room, there can be an athlete room, there can be a bookworm room, there can be an artist room, there can be a creative room, there can be a German Shepherd lover room. It doesn't matter. Again, different people have different rooms, but our identity houses have more than one room. And over the course of our life, We spend different proportions of our time and energy in different rooms in our identity house. And much like an actual house, we often renovate and remodel and paint the rooms and take down old art and put up new art. And sometimes we even decide we're gonna knock a room off the house because we wanna make a, an addition or a renovation somewhere else. The values, the foundation, that stays the same. That's what holds the house together. The different rooms, we should expect over time that we're gonna have different rooms in our identity house. In the research literature, it's called self-complexity. And what self-complexity means is that you have, um, various elements in your life that you derive identity and meaning from. So you're not fused to just one room in your identity house. And even though those rooms can be different, and even though the rooms themselves can change, you can put up new wallpaper over time, you're still integrated and cohesive because your values that's the center, that's what holds everything together. So the way that I would think about it is, of course, like, the rooms in your identity house are going to change over time. Um, if you've lived in a physical house for 50, 60, 70 years, uh, you got to do repairs, you got to paint things. Like, sometimes, sometimes you need to make changes. I mean, I think about something that— I'm a little bit younger, so my kids haven't left the house yet, But like, I'm dreading the day that my kids go off to school. And I'll probably leave the room with all their stuffies and trophies and the sports things on the wall. And at some point, though, I'll have to change that room.

Mm-hmm.

And that's, that's true in a physical house. But that's also true as my identity as a father. And like, that's just how I think about this. Like, you got— it's just, there's acceptance. And then there's building an identity house that has more than one room. And realizing that just because the rooms change over time doesn't mean that you as a person and your fundamental values change.

Mm-hmm. Such a good analogy. And so I'm going to go down a stream here that I think sometimes too we're forced to move, right? So when I was moving in 2014, one of the hardest things was not just lose moving from that house, but it was realizing I don't have this room for my son anymore. Like, it's, you know, that thing, that place, that anchor was no longer there. And I think sometimes women can feel that way, like an event will force their hand. And like, it's not necessarily just something that softly evolved and happens to every woman, but something more dramatic or traumatic happen to make that pivot like you've got to do it now. Yeah.

That's right. Did you have a podcast back then?

I did have a— I had a fitness professionals podcast back then. I didn't have this particular podcast for about a year later.

Yeah. So it's interesting. The reason I ask is like now you have this super successful podcast, you've become a real pro at this. It's another room in your identity house, like, that wasn't there, and now you have it. So I just think it's like, at what— when one room is forced to change, if you feel like you don't have enough other rooms, then you build a new one. Um, there's a saying that I love that, that gets thrown around in sport a lot, which is, um, athletes die twice. They die when they retire from their sport, and then they die when they die. Because their sport and being competitive is such an enormous part of their identity and they have to grieve that loss. And all the research shows the athletes that make this transition best, it's hard, they go through a real period of grief and loss, and they find other things to apply their drive and motivation to. So they become business people or artists or agents or coaches or volunteers. Um, so I think that even if it's a stark transition, you're on top of the world as an athlete and you tear an ACL and the surgery doesn't go well, so your career ends, it's gonna be a, a huge period of grief and loss. And those that come out of those periods are able to throw their ambition and their motivation and their wisdom into other pursuits that were different than sport. Um, and then the last thing I'll say is like, it's so important to surround yourself with community to hold you up. When it feels like the ground underneath you has been swept out. Because it happens to all of us, like, to live is to lose, not to get too philosophical, but it's just true. You know, everything, everything that we love, on the other side of everything we love is grief. Because we can't, as much as we wish we could, like, we can't just hold on to things in a certain state forever. And I think the only way through is to lean on other people that are going through their own stuff because it's the human condition and to love and support one another. Simple, not easy.

Okay. So a lot of women in their 50s and 60s, and I think we're going to see even more of this because it's— I think it's one of the fastest growing centers or people behind new businesses. They still have enormous goals. And if we look historically at women you know, in their 50s, 60s, and 70s, they've done some pretty significant stuff. How do you pursue meaningful ambition without falling back into the hustle pattern that it kind of got you there in the first place, got you to want it, but you also know this has kind of driven me out of one thing and now I want to, I want to jump boxes, but How do I avoid the problem again?

There's a line in the book where I write that the things that work, work until they get in the way. And I think what you're describing— yeah, what you're describing is like a wonderful case of this. Um, I think that is maturation, is being to acknowledge when something worked and it doesn't anymore, and then to let that go. And It doesn't mean that you have to look back on it with resentment or judge yourself. You can actually say, like, wow, the way that I did things, it really got me interested, or it got me going, and it served me really well until it stopped serving me well. And now I have to have the maturity and the guts to try a new path or to make adjustments to how I did things. Um, I think that again, any super successful person has different tools that they use at different times of their life. And if you are rigidly stuck to just one set of tools, it might work really well for a few years, maybe even a decade or two, but at some point, like, you're gonna have to use new tools. Um, and that's the value of listening to podcasts like this, of reading books. It's a growth mindset, right? Like, to continue to be curious, to learn and grow. Something else that I found in my reporting on excellence, and particularly in individuals that are in the second half of their life, we talked about the importance of having fun, self-discipline, and self-kindness. Another attribute that really stood out to me was just how curious lifelong high performers are. And I think a big part of that curiosity is a willingness to try new things and to not think that you've got it all figured out because the technologies evolve and you as a person evolve and it's an ongoing process of learning.

And I think something really powerful about that word in so many places, curiosity versus judgment. You know, I think you get a certain outcome, you know, and it may look or feel like a failure. It's not quite where you wanted it to be. But instead of being judgmental of that, being curious about it, like, Why, why did I do that? Or why am I thinking like that?

Yeah, curiosity is, is, is incredible for that reason. There's, there's this framework that I love called finite and infinite games. Have you heard of this or no? No. Okay, so finite games have winners and losers and they run for a set amount of time. So playing tennis or pickleball is a finite game. Launching a business is a finite game. Like, you're either gonna succeed or not. Um, publishing a book is a finite game. You're gonna publish the book. Then there are also infinite games. In infinite games, there are no winners and losers, and the entire point of the game is just to keep playing. And I think that we ought to focus more on the infinite game and realize that if we show up and we play the infinite game, eventually we'll win some finite games along the way. And it's that mindset of curiosity and growth that you're always learning. So you could win a championship or lose a championship, and that's a finite game. But the infinite game is just you as a person. You're going to get lessons and growth and learning from both. And it's not to sugarcoat things and say that when your business fails, you should be happy because, oh, I'm playing the infinite game, I learned something like, no, it sucks. And it's just true that like, so long as you keep living, you better learn something because otherwise, what was the point of failing?

So true. So true. It's where all the growth happens. That is for sure. You've written about consistency over intensity, and, you know, there have been times in this last dozen years really focused on females in menopause where, you know, like a lot of people, I think older adults need to be sure they realize, first of all, they're not broken, or they're not fragile, not yet. And they can avoid it potentially by doing hard things, but consistently— consistency does still trump. You got to be doing it first. What are some examples of boring? And I love this so much. I just had this yesterday. A client said, I So I went in and I was lifting the weights. They say it's so boring, she said. I'm like, oh gosh, here we go. But, you know, give me some examples of what's boring but powerful practices that compound over time, become more important, not less important as we age. What else would you categorize there?

So first off, I'll, I'll say I just think about Roxanne. So Roxanne is my training partner. I'm 40, Roxanne is 73. We, we both train on Monday, Wednesday, and Fridays at the same gym. It's a gym in Asheville called Strength Ratio.

Okay.

And Roxanne trains harder than anyone at that gym. And why? And Roxanne, she's always been an athlete, but she didn't start strength training until she's 60. So she's been doing it for over a decade, but she started at 60. And her secret sauce is she's been showing up 3 days a week for the last decade. Now, granted, there have been injuries and illnesses, but you zoom out and you look at the average, it's 3 days a week every week. And her workout program is not full of bright and shiny objects and super sexy stuff. It's squats, it's farmer's carries, it's lunges, it's pulldowns. She works with a great trainer that can make sure that her form is good when she needs check-ins. And she just shows up. And the training's boring, but you know what's not boring? The fact that she is now part of this community. The fact that all those myths that, oh, you know, you're 72, you can't deadlift. You can deadlift. Now, you can't deadlift with bad form, but if you're patient and smart and consistent, you can absolutely deadlift. You're a resilient, robust person. And I look at her and she's always inspired by me and my work, and I'm like, no, no, no. Like, I wanna be doing what you're doing when you're 73. What's the secret? And she says every time, she says, you're looking at the secret. It's being around motivating people and doing the basics. And that's true. Like, that, that's not just in the gym. Again, that's in everything. You ask me some other practices that are like that. I think physical practice, physical activity, I think social practice. So being in community, like making the time to prioritize relationships is so important, especially as we age. Uh, sleep is another one, is like not neglecting sleep, not stressing out and freaking out over it, but not neglecting it, making sleep a real priority. Um, the way in which we, we nourish ourselves with food. Uh, you know, you probably know this from my book and my page, I'm not big into optimization and all these rigid rules, but I also think that if you just follow the default path, at least in America, you're gonna end up pretty unhealthy. So you do need to have some intention around how you eat. Mm-hmm. And I really think that like you put a couple simple but not easy boring things together, physical activity, social relationships, trying to eat a, a reasonably decent diet, good sleep, and then avoiding toxic substances. And you're probably like 98% of the way there. And everyone's looking for the, the hack or the secret. True. And generally the hack or the secret is nailing those basics now. There's a reason that there are coaches like you and books like mine, because we need someone to hold our hand and walk the path with us. Because it might be simple, but that doesn't make it easy.

And, and to that point, doesn't make it easy, I think it's because there's a large percent of the population resisting. And so I think for people who do change their mind, they want to— they're swimming upstream. So they've got their own internal resistance they're still trying to overcome. They acknowledge, but then they've got this external resistance. That's a lot of resistance, right?

Yes. And that's the importance, I think, of good books, good coaching, and good community. I was just having this conversation with someone yesterday, and I'm like, if you find other people that get it, you hold on tight. And that can be authors, that can be musicians, again, coaches, community. Ideally, you have all of it. Because as I write in the book, so much of, of excellence is about the ecosystem around you. And the default ecosystem is terrible. As you said, you're just, you're swimming upstream. Yeah. So our work is to create our own little ecosystems around us that support our values and goals. And what are the key ingredients to ecosystems? It's the content you consume. So the books you read, the podcasts you listen to, it's the mentors in coaching and teaching that you have. So your coaches, your mentors, your teachers. And then it's the people that you love. So your friends, your family, um, in your chosen community. And if you can be really intentional about selecting those things well, then it makes everything else so much easier.

Well said. Okay. What do you know from your studies, your work? What are the people who are aging exceptionally like Roxanne?

Right.

What are they doing well and what are they doing differently that we need to pay attention to?

Oh, you're asking such good questions. I, I think there is this— the curiosity thing I really think is, is real. So like this ongoing hunger and zest for learning and for growth and never letting go of that.

Mm-hmm.

Something else that's interesting that, that is just an observation. I haven't studied this, but it seems like those individuals go out of their way to surround themselves with people who are younger than them. And this is something that I am trying to already do. Um, I look at Roxanne and like, again, she trains with me and Zach, and Zach's like 36, and she could train with other people, but she's like, I love, I love this. Like, you guys make me laugh.

Yeah.

I think that seeking out people who are younger and more energetic— not more energetic, but have a different energy, a more youthful energy just because they're younger than you, mm-hmm, I think goes a, a long way. Um, and then I think continuing to challenge yourself, it's kind of like you said at the outset, if you think that excellence is only for the people on the top of the podium at the Olympics, like that's nonsense. The, an excellent result might not be possible for everyone, but the process and the pursuit of giving worthwhile activities your best shot and doing it in a way that aligns with your values, like that's for everyone at all stages of life. And if that becomes a guiding principle for you, um, you could carry that into your 90s.

Yeah, so love that. And I— two things come to my mind. I think it's part of the reason why university towns, cities are— I think people, certain people gravitate toward them because they feel like they're a part of that younger community. Yeah. And I remember distinctly being in a gym, being a part of directing group fitness or personal training. And quite often we would, we would look to segment, separate older adults and give them a group of people that was their own. And a lot of times they fought it, you know, they would prefer to go where the younger, youthful people are. And for exactly the reasons you said, I think they want that stimulation, they want that energy, and the blended community is actually good for probably every age group in that way.

I was just gonna say, because the young people get, like, I am just soaking up wisdom from Roxanne, and like, she thinks that I'm the one inspiring her and motivating her, and I'm like, it's the opposite. And we both feel that way, and that's the magic. And I feel that way when I work with younger kids, and I shouldn't call 'em kids, like young adults, people in their 20s and early 30s, 40s, uh, they think they're, they're learning from me and maybe I'm teaching them a thing or two, but like, I'm just soaking up their energy and like their, their, their lightheartedness and their ability to laugh. Like, it's great. It, it, it keeps me youthful.

So awesome. So as we wrap up, I want to ask you one more question. If strength training is the physical practice of resilience, what's the psychological equivalent? I know we led, we kind of opened with mindset and, you know, what mindset shift, and yet that's kind of elusive. I mean, if you tell me to go lift a dumbbell X amount of sets, I can do that. But if you tell me to go have a mindset shift, I'm gonna struggle with that one.

So no, I got you. I've been thinking about this a lot. I think that The equivalent to training in the gym for our bodies, for our psychology, is reading books, especially, especially in today's era where it is so easy just to scroll on your phone and watch short-form videos or to turn on Netflix. And I do this too. We connected on Instagram. It's not all bad, right? There can be a lot of good out of it. However, much like the default in a physical environment, you get in a car, you drive somewhere, you sit a lot. Like, there's a reason that we have to go to the gym. We have to carve out time and space where the whole purpose is to challenge our bodies because that's what makes our bodies stronger. Sitting down to read for between 20 and 30 minutes a day is the same thing for our brains and our minds. It forces you to engage with something, to single task, to focus, to wrestle with ideas, to see yourself in ideas, to disagree sometimes. These are all the things that, that, that make our mind strong. Um, and I think that it used to be 30 years ago, you didn't have to carve out this time because pre-social media and really like pre-internet 2.0, 3.0, like this current internet that has just got such high velocity and 24/7 cable news and just screens everywhere. Yeah. The ability to slow down and to think your own thoughts and to feel your own feelings was a natural part of life. And now you can go from one thing to the next and never think your own thought and never feel your own feeling. And I think sitting down for 30 minutes a day to read a book is the mind gym.

So let me ask you something. As the author of books, do you have a preference? And is there a difference in the way that it lands psychologically if I read your book or I listen to your book?

Oh, this is like asking me about politics or religion. People feel very strongly. About this topic. So for me personally, I have a much— and I can only speak to my own experience— I have a much better, fuller, more textured time if I sit down and read a book versus listening. I feel like it's more active. I'm taking notes in the margin of the page.

I flip in the corners and—

yep, highlighting. I literally cannot multitask. Because you can't do two things at once, whereas if you listen to a book, you can be walking or doing the dishes. However, and my wife is a huge audiobook person, so she listens to books. So this is a point of contention among us. And for the longest time I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. And then I saw some interesting research that showed, and I should have been more empathetic and realize this myself, that we have different brains, like different people have different brains. And for a portion of the population, what I get out of reading a physical book is what they get out of listening to an audiobook.

And does that have to do with a matter of knowing yourself? Sorry, does that have to do with being a kinesthetic learner? Is she potentially more—

you know, that's also interesting because when we lived in Oakland, there was this lake called Lake Merritt, and I would walk around the lake reading a book. It wasn't great for my neck because I'm looking down while walking, but I am a kinesthetic learner. So like I try to take phone calls, I try to pace even as we're recording this under the table. I'm like fidgeting. I'm, I'm, I am of that ilk as well. I don't know is the short answer. I don't know the research on it. I think what happens with me is when I listen to an audiobook, I have my mind like I don't get that workout of like having to sit still and think because my mind will drift elsewhere or I'll start doing something else. I suppose if you were to sit in a chair with no distractions and just listen to an audiobook, it would be the exact same as reading. I just don't listen to books that way. But I think the ultimate answer is like, know your brain and know yourself because there's nothing inherently special about reading. I don't think— I think what's special is exposing yourself to new ideas in a non-distracted way that forces you to focus, feel your own feelings, and think your own thoughts.

Yeah, that's so good. That is— I'm going to leave everybody listening to think about that one because I there is something that pulls me to the fact that I think you've got something in sitting down or standing up or whatever, but reading the words on the page. We just don't do very much of that, and we don't, we don't do our own thinking anymore. We ask Chat, we ask Claude, or we ask somebody else, and that is scary, frankly.

Yeah, it's, it's— but it— but that's what I'm saying about going to the gym. Like, Claude and Chat are, you know, they're going to be the equivalent of like, uh, a monorail or a highway where you just get in the car and you don't have to work your body. So we go to the gym because it's still important to work our bodies. And I think setting aside 20 to 30 minutes a day to sit down and focus and read is, is going to the gym, but for our minds. Um, I don't even think about it as like reading for pleasure. I mean, it can be, but it's like, I call it a deep reading practice. And just like you have a physical practice or you go to the gym or an exercise routine, you have a reading routine. Um, and I think that it's, it's increasingly going to become important to, to, to strengthen our minds and keep us sharp and, and ultimately afford us more resilience because resilience is, again, it's, it's forged by making yourself uncomfortable. And what is making yourself uncomfortable if not exposing yourself to new ideas, having to think about them, having to focus.

So you've written multiple books, so this is your most recent. Is there a grieving period when you're done writing?

Ah, what a great question. No is the short answer. I think my curiosity is, is so strong that I'm just on to the next project. Like, once the book is written, it's out of my system. Um, I think the challenge can be letting go of a book from a marketing and promotion standpoint. Which kind of feels like, um, letting a kid off into the world on their own without supporting them. Mm-hmm. So like when the kid's a baby, when the book first comes out, you've gotta do everything for it. And then as the book gets older, you do a little bit less. And then at some point you say, all right, like I gotta turn my attention to a new baby. Mm-hmm. It's not the perfect metaphor because you don't give up on your 4-year-old when you have an infant. But, um, the life cycle of a book is obviously condensed versus a human life. But that feeling of not knowing when to just let it go off on the world on its own. Can be challenging, but from a creative standpoint, um, once the book is out of my system, it's out of my system and I'm on to exploring the next thing.

So is the next book usually born out of the writing of one where you realize this is another idea I have big enough to explore on its own?

100%. That's how all my ideas have happened. The writing and the conversations and the reporting. Someone will say something in an interview. That just blows my mind but isn't the perfect fit for the book I'm working on, or it's just too big of an idea, like it doesn't need its own chapter paragraph, it needs its own book, uh, and that becomes its own book. So for example, for this book, one of the chapters that readers appreciate most is on caring deeply and just the power of like giving a damn. And, um, I decided that I just want to write a book on caring deeply. I want to explore how people live lives where they care deeply. So that'll be the next book, and that was born out of writing this one.

Amazing. Amazing. I'm going to give you an open platform. Is there anything you want to leave listeners with?

This was such a great conversation. I feel like we covered so much ground. Challenge yourself and be kind to yourself and do both those things at the same time. I increasingly think That's the key to physical resilience, to psychological resilience. Something else that I've written that one day I want to get put on a mug because I think we need it more than ever is like, I have kind of 3 simple rules for life, which are do good work, love good people, and don't be an asshole. And I think it's like simple but not easy, especially in today's world. And like, I try to hold myself to that standard and it's not always easy. Um, yeah, so I guess that's— those are my parting words.

Fantastic. And tell everybody, where can they find you, find the book? Everywhere books are sold. And where can they follow you?

So the book is The Way of Excellence. Um, again, you can get it Amazon, Barnes Noble, audio, ebook, all the formats that we just talked about. Uh, I'm Brad Stahlberg. In my Instagram handle is just my name, @BradStulberg. And then my Substack is my newsletter, which is also just my name, @BradStulberg.

Fantastic. And everybody, we've got you. If you're walking or you happen to be lifting, it's in the show notes. Brad, thanks so much for your time.

Thank you. This was a good, this was a real treat.

Thank you. The information shared on Flipping 50 the Stronger Way is for educational educational and informational purposes only and not intended as a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always consult your physician or qualified healthcare provider before beginning any exercise program, making changes to your diet, or adjusting any medications or supplements. Individual results may vary. Debra Atkinson and Flipping 50 are not responsible for any injury or adverse outcomes resulting from information presented on this podcast. If today's episode reminded you that it's time to put yourself back on your own priority list, don't wait. Join me inside Flipping 50: The Stronger Way and save $100 on your annual membership. You'll get year-round access to progressive strength training programs, mobility, yoga, Pilates, balance, corrective exercise, and so much more, all created specifically for women who wanna stay strong active, and independent for decades to come. You can join monthly if you prefer, but the annual membership gives you the biggest savings, $379 savings compared to paying month by month. The link is in the show notes. Come train with me. Your strongest years don't have to be behind you. They can absolutely be the ones you're living right now. If today's episode reminded you that it's time to put yourself back on your own priority list, don't wait. Join me inside Flipping 50 the Stronger Way and save $100 on your annual membership. You'll get year-round access to progressive strength training programs, mobility, yoga, Pilates, balance, corrective exercise, and so much more, all created specifically for women who wanna stay strong, active, and independent for decades to come. You can join monthly if you prefer, but the annual membership gives you the biggest savings, $379 savings compared to paying month by month. The link is in the show notes. Come train with me. Your strongest years don't have to be behind you. They can absolutely be the ones you're living right now. If today's episode reminded you that it's time to put yourself back on your own priority list, don't wait. Join me inside Flipping 50 the Stronger Way and save $100 on your annual membership. You'll get year-round access to progressive strength training programs, mobility, yoga, Pilates, balance, corrective exercise, and so much more, all created specifically for women who wanna stay strong, active, and independent for decades to come. You can join monthly if you prefer, but the annual membership gives you the biggest savings, $379 savings compared to paying month by month. The link is in the show notes. Come train with me. Your strongest years don't have to be behind you. They can absolutely be the ones you're living right now.