Your Follow-Up Questions on Heavy vs Light Lifting After 50 — Answered With Science

Okay. Before we start this episode, if you're looking at the title, Heavy Versus Light: What Is the Real Truth? This is based on a follow-up, but the answer is yes and. I will spare you listening to the entire episode if that helps you, but I think you might want to listen. What I'm going to do is read all of the questions that have come in kind of after I did what I thought was a very clear and articulate podcast episode. We apparently still are at a battle. And I think part of it is between our own ears. We battle between feeling like I should be lifting heavier and somehow I still feel more vital or vibrant, maybe younger, like I'm not settling if we lift heavier. I will tell you a little bit of story as we go through this about my own journey through this and ego lifting. So stay tuned, listen to this one. It's a follow-up from a prior discussion about heavy versus light. And my answer again is yes and, but we'll talk about what does the science say in response to all of the questions that flowed in after that episode. Okay. So after this recent episode we did, and even a masterclass in the same month on whether we need to lift heavy or does light Light Work, the messages rolled in. A lot of positive comments also were like, thank you. I've been lifting light, but feeling guilty. It works for me, but I keep thinking maybe I need to lift heavy. I got all of those and I appreciate that behind the scenes. It tells me that you're listening and there's some value here in this podcast and it's helping you make decisions about what you're doing. But I also got a lot of questions still stumbling in of, do I have to lift heavy or not? What if my joints hate heavy weights? Is lighter training a waste of time? And did you change your position? That was an interesting question. So today I'm answering those real questions with science and with protocols so that you understand. So I'll take some science and break down what did the scientific study do? What were the protocols? What did they find? And we'll do all of this without the Instagram drama, okay? So let's be clear. The research shows that heavy lifting works and that it's safe and safe and sound for postmenopausal women with osteoporosis. I'm just gonna use that as an example because it is one of the most common fears, I think, that you think you're postmenopausal, so you're, Lower on estrogen, your bones are not as resilient. Neither is your connective tissue. You feel maybe more prone to injury and you've got osteoporosis and maybe have been reading too much online about all the contraindications that used to be out there, floated out there in the mid-'90s that we no longer maybe have to adhere to. So You know, as a 61-year-old myself, I think it's really important that you feed your brain and your thought process, so therefore your beliefs, something really good. If you don't have evidence around you that every 61 or 5-year-old falls and breaks something, you know, let's just not go down that path. But let's also realize there is a history. There are statistics. Let's just not constantly play them over and over and over like a Sean Cassidy record. Okay? So did I just date myself? I think I might have. All right. So here's the deal. Heavy lifting works. It doesn't prove that lighter lifting doesn't work. Those are very different claims, right? So today I'm going to unpack what load comparison studies actually test and how, what populations relations were studied, how researchers interpret hypertrophy— that's muscle growth data— where menopause physiology changes the conversation for us, and how you apply this without wrecking your recovery. Very significant piece. So this isn't a redo of a recent episode, though it may feel like an overlap. It does answer questions from some of you via our Insiders Facebook group and in DMs on Instagram that I personally see. So let's roll. Question number 1 came in, "If lightweight weights work, why does everyone push heavy?" So, well, let's break that down. First of all, I think I could just speak for myself. Some of us like heavy. And again, I do think some of it can be, you know, a bit of ego and we don't want to let go of what we what we used to be able to do. Because comparison theory is a real thing. And I don't mean you and I comparing ourselves to Demi Moore. I mean comparing ourselves right now to ourselves then. Yeah. So let's just put that in our sock and think about it a little bit. But let me break this down. So in a study that was done by Brad Schoenfeld, you may recognize that name. He's been a best guest on the podcast because he is a really well-known professor. He does a lot of research with his grad students and a lot of traveling to lecture. And he was published in 2017, this particular study, in the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. He's widely published, by the way. And in this study, there were 49 resistance training studies looked at. So this is kind of what we call a review of literature. We're reviewing a lot of things. To take a real lot of subjects in a lot of studies and look collectively. Most of these were younger adults, so we have to take that into factor, but it still can point to what's true. It was both sexes, so males and females. They looked at low load, which is about 30% to 50% of a 1-rep max to failure. Now that is really light. Generally at about 40%, we're talking this is very functional movement. We can do things over and over. And this is, you know, just your lighter weight, your bands, your tubing, you're going really to the far left of the weight stand. Okay. And then they looked also at moderate to higher loads, 60 to 85%. Just to give an idea, 85% is probably between 8 and 12 repetitions for most of us. So the findings were hypertrophy, which means that muscle size, the fiber size recruited, was similar across the loads when the sets were taken close to failure. So if you were picking up a low load, it means you had to do more repetitions or you were going to go slower, but you were going to muscle failure. And likewise, with a moderate to high load, probably was going to take fewer repetitions as you did it. But if they were both taken to failure, the gains were going to be about the same in terms of hypertrophy, how much muscle fiber size was gained. Strength gains were superior with heavy loads, and we know this. So if we look at really heavy loads, it's pure strength. If that's what we want, that's probably what we need. We are gonna have some strength gains, but it's going to lean more toward muscle endurance when we go lighter and do it more times. But the interpretation here, muscle growth appears to be driven by 5 different things. Mechanical tension, the motor unit recruitment, and that might even engage our mind thinking about it. Proximity to failure. So again, you know, if we lift heavy, Sometimes we're putting those things down before we're actually at failure versus if you used a lighter weight and you went to true failure, you might be more advantageous that way. And volume. So volume can be a lot of things, but generally it is weight times the number of times you're lifting it. And that could include the number of sets that you do, but it also can include the number of repetitions. So sets times repetitions times weight. Equals volume in a lot of schools of thought. So lifting heavy is often promoted because it improves maximal strength more efficiently. It does. You're gonna get stronger faster if you lift a heavy weight. But some of you are thinking this already, you're way ahead of me, as long as you don't get hurt. And you've heard me say this potentially if you've been around for a minute. You don't want to be the person who is saying, "I was in the best shape of my life right before I got hurt." We heard that a lot with people doing CrossFit. And CrossFit may not be the problem. The coach around you watching you is probably the bigger challenge. It's either a benefit or not. But it was when people were doing CrossFit, like, many times a week. And not allowing the recovery that really became the problem. So it improves maximal strength. Heavy certainly does. We can't argue that. Bone density studies often test higher load versus higher rep for the high strain magnitude. We're looking for how much can we load, and when we say strain the muscle— so your muscle, let's say the bicep, inserts or it originates, let's say at the shoulder joint, and it inserts closer to the elbow joint. Those two places where it's attached, if we're using a really heavy weight, that's making the muscle more tension, more tense on the bone. It's going to help bone density more, and the load itself will do so. Number 3, it reaches high threshold motor units faster. So let's talk about motor units. Those are kind of the little pieces, like parts in your car that help muscle work. High threshold motor unit stimulation involves recruiting large fast twitch muscle fiber that produce high and rapid force and explosive movements. But unlike low threshold endurance-based fibers, which we call slow twitch, the high threshold motor unit stimulation activate only during heavy, intense, or explosive tasks, and it results in quick, powerful contractions, but they have rapid fatigue and high metabolic cost. By the way, this is good news. This is why really heavy or really powerful, using speed and strength component together, moves and can be short workouts. And actually should to be more beneficial. You can't like really do a longer workout thinking if a little is good, more is better. We have to kind of drop some of that mentality if we really want to take advantage. So if you want a short workout and you want to do them, realize that you are going to fatigue very quickly. And that's not so bad because you actually recover fairly quickly too in a minute or two. So if I said, I want you to squat down as low as you can and I I want you to jump as high as you possibly can. And I want you to do that again. And in about 2 or 3 repetitions, you're going to be like, just give me a minute. And maybe sooner, but it wouldn't take probably more than a minute and you'd be able to go again. But those explosive moves, you're not going to be able to do many of them. And then you've really worked at capacity. We don't have to do a ton of those. The quality matters. More than quantity. And some of us still have the ladies of the '80s mentality where more must be better. If I do an hour on the StairMaster, surely that must be better than 15 minutes. The truth is, maybe not. Maybe not. So that does not mean lighter loads fail to stimulate muscle. All right. So in fact, other studies, when comparing— this is going to feel like a little tangent— we look at 2 versus 3 times a week. It doesn't matter as long as there's a volume. Is the same. If recovery is a limiting factor, you want to do fewer yet slightly longer workouts. Longer by really just 5 minutes, maybe because you're adding one more set. A set can be done easily in a minute if you're doing really heavy weights. You're doing fewer repetitions, you're not even taking a minute to do that set. You're taking longer to recover from that set. So when you're already warm, to do another set it's far less time and energy investment than to go home and then come back another day where you've got to plan it in your schedule. You got to plan the time to do the workout and to probably shower and get ready afterward. All of that takes a little bit more time and energy. So question 2, does menopause mean I need heavier loads because of anabolic resistance? It's a really intelligent question. Anabolic resistance is our resistance to even holding on to the muscle we have and easier losing it than gaining it. We are resistant to that because we have less estrogen that used to just help us safeguard that muscle. Now we don't have it. There are only two ways you can get it when we no longer have that simply youth on our side. Eating higher levels of protein can increase muscle protein synthesis. Now, that's not to say just eating higher protein is going to help you gain muscle, but it might help you maintain it. I will tell you that. The second way is resistance training. Now, it needs to be done with a certain slant on it. So lots of things are resistance training. If you go swimming, you're resisting by being in the water. You could be water walking, it's resistance training, but is that going to help you gain muscle? Probably not. You have to reach that to muscle fatigue. Is Pilates working against resistance? Yes. Whether it's you and your body weight on the mat or it's you on a reformer pulling on something, we don't go to fatigue in Pilates. And I'm not discriminating, I'm a mat and reformer certified Pilates instructor as well. Love them both. but not necessarily are they in the top echelon of the priorities for my week if I'm thinking aging well. And that's important to me. Don't know about you, but let me reference this study. So this was from 2016, so a decade, but part of the reason that this is true is because it becomes more well and well known and it's just used over and over again in studies. As a citation. Like, we're going to reference this study because it already established it. So this study looked at younger versus older adults, and I've talked about this previously. There was resistance exercise stimulus given to both. Okay, so similar. Now, we're not saying that the 20-year-olds were given, you know, 25-pound dumbbells and so were the 70-year-olds. It was relatively the same. So we were giving the same kind of load. They each reached fatigue at approximately 10 repetitions. And I'm giving you this— this is not verbatim protocol, but explaining to you how it was similar in terms of the taxation on their muscles and workload. Then they did a measurement of muscle protein synthesis. So we know that resistance training was one of those things that increases muscle protein synthesis. So we wanted to see how high does it go. We know that older adults show anabolic resistance. Muscle protein synthesis response is blunted compared to the younger adults if the loads were the same. And that was that. Older muscle might require, and in fact it does, other studies have shown this, a higher protein dose and greater effort or adequate stimulus. So for those older adults, they may have needed to do another set in order to achieve the same muscle protein synthesis. Maybe they needed to do heavier weight, but right then we have to look at, but were your joints, your ligaments going to handle that? Okay, maybe not. So the second set might be the answer. They needed also though greater recovery. So we're not going to reap those benefits if we don't have that. Remember that stimulus can be achieved by a higher load, but that's only one path. Higher volume, that is adding another set, adding more repetitions to muscle fatigue, or possibly adding another day, but only if recovery still happens, and training closer to failure. So not giving up just to say, "Oh, I reached 10," but because if you could do 5 more, you should probably do 4 or 5 more. Real quick, I'll let you in on a little secret. I'm a homebody. In this past year, in every possible way. I moved home to be closer to my family and new grandson. I chose a home I knew I would love every day in. In every way, I choose the kinds of things that surround me really carefully. My most recent home luxury, a much-needed new comforter from Cozy Earth, breathable temperature-regulating material with a cloud-like feel, and just for me, no-show essential socks. Cozy Earth creates essentials I love from sleeping to padding around my home office, behind the scenes in comfortable socks. The right things elevate everyday experiences. What I love about shopping at Cozy Earth, they have a risk-free purchase, 100-night sleep trial. Try them for yourself. Every detail is designed to feel effortlessly comfortable. Returns are easy, but after feeling this level of comfort, you won't let them go. There's even a 10-year warranty. Built with care and precision because true comfort is meant to endure. Discover how care in every detail transforms simple routines into moments of true comfort and ease. Head to cozyearth.com and use my code FLIPPING50 for up to 20% off. And if you get a post-purchase survey, be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Experience the craft behind the comfort. And make every day feel intentional. All right. Question 3, what about joint pain? Heavy feels worse to me. That is your answer right there. End of story. Load increases joint compression. No contest. But muscular tension doesn't require maximal joint stress. So let's say I picked up a weight, not the extremely heavy one, but kind of moderate to heavy in that range. And I just went slower. So I'm creating more time under tension. You know, if I went, okay, lift and then lower and then lift and then lower and then lift and then lower versus I went lift Slow it down. Okay. Now lower, slow that down even more. The difference in those repetition ranges, like almost twice as much, right? In the second example, muscle tension is created for a longer period of time and probably more muscle tension is created because that muscle is going to fatigue more quickly. Slower tempo training at moderate loads can increase time under tension, increase motor unit recruitment because of that, and reduce peak joint forces. So we don't necessarily always have to go heavy to increase motor unit recruitment. And if we had two side-by-side studies where one looked at heavy, one looked at it's a little lighter, but we did more tempo, slow tempo, time under training, would we still have more motor unit recruitment and heavier? Potentially so. But is it minimized because we found another way around it? Yes, that's generally what's found. Hypertrophy, that is the growth of fiber size, depends on tension and fatigue, not compression alone. So if your joints are limiting for you, you want to focus on 60 to 70% of a one rep max. So remember, if we're talking 85%, 80, 85 is about 8 to 12 repetitions. Okay. And so we're more than that. We're probably at 15. We might be up to 20 repetitions. Control your tempo. And you might not make it all the 20 if you go really slow. Make it nearly to failure and be strategic with the amount of volume. So adding another set could be advantageous. Sometimes what I like to do is play with sets that are not allowing me adequate recovery between. And I know sometimes I talk about, well, Well, don't do that. You got to recover so that you can work at your capacity. But if I really want to create muscle failure, I really want to get there, then what I'm going to do and try to increase motor unit recruitment is I'm going to come at that maybe with a different weight. So I might lift a really heavy weight, 6 repetitions, all I can do is 6. And almost immediately I'm going to go put that down. And then I'm going to lift a weight, find a weight I can do 12 times, and that's it. And that's got to be-ish, right? Because you can't predict completely exactly where that's going to be. But then right after that, I'll go grab one that I can do 25 times. And that kind of uses really heavy, moderate, and really light, but I reach fatigue, fatigue, and fatigue. And those muscle motor units probably got tapped into significantly 3 different times. That's also really time efficient. If you want to see that in action, I have a YouTube video on that. So head over there if you'd like to. So important that you are looking very strategically. It's still valid. You still get it. Question number 4 is exercise for bone density different from muscle growth? Yes. In a word, yes. And this is where confusion explodes. Though. So in the LIFT MORE trial, and this is what everybody's heard and passing around and they're sharing, and this is from 2018. It's not the only one, but there were 101 postmenopausal women. They had low bone mass, so obviously osteoporosis. Okay, funny that they say it that way, but the protocol was 80 to 85% of a 1-rep max. Remember, I've shared with you that's 8 to 12 reps. Twice weekly for 8 months. There were significant increases in lumbar spine bone density. Lean muscle mass also improved. So bone responded to high strain magnitude and high strain rate. And in this study, they used heavier loads. Muscle hypertrophy, it can occur across a broad spectrum. So the lift heavy messaging often originates from isolated bone research, not hypertrophy or muscle gains comparison studies and not even inclusive research about bone density. So it's a little skewed. And it was like, ah, but, ah, here's the good news for people like me and maybe like you. I am able to lift heavy. I am able to do high impact. And as long as I can, I'm going to. I'm not going to start preserving myself like I want to look look good in a box 8 feet under. I mean, that's ridiculous, right? I want to skid to an ending, getting off, declaring, what a ride, don't you? Right? You know, and so I'm gonna have a few bumps and bruises, and, you know, so be it. I'm not gonna do damage. There's a difference, right? So I know when to start, I know when to go, and I know when to stop and to recover. And that is the difference between going all out, doing a high impact, going hard, and complete recovery in between. It keeps your capacity where it is for everything, for the lifting, but also for the life between lifting. So different tissues, different adaptation rules. Years ago, I worked with a client for years who was constantly afraid to lift either to muscle fatigue or to challenge herself with heavier weights. She had had significant, although unwarranted, warranted fear about getting hurt. And I worked with her for several years. She was never really injured from lifting weights. She had some history, however, is frequent illness. She was constantly canceling because of a cold or the flu or whatever the bug was going around. I mean, more times than most. So she did have osteoporosis. And instead of opting for my recommendations of lifting a little heavier, she resisted and preferred to do more, like more repetitions, lighter weight, more days per week, more cardio, more walking. Now, I love walking, but not when it comes or removes and takes the place of time and energy that could or should be spent on strength training. So the sole reason we never heard about the possibility of reversing bone loss before recent years of, say, LIFT2MORE and other studies is that not many women with osteoporosis were ever encouraged to go to muscle fatigue or to jump or to lift a little bit heavier. They were told to be cautious, be careful, we need to bubble wrap you. They were handed a prescription. And so no longer are we living in that era. However, that information is still out there. So if you are still reading it, if you are still being fear-mongered into, you need to go into an OsteoStrong and nothing wrong with them. But, you know, those are franchises looking to sell you something, and it's very important you realize you still need to be lifting. You've got to be going through functional movement. You can't just go get in there and have a machine push on you, or you push on it statically. That is not going to make you functional in real life. It will make your bones stronger, potentially, But it doesn't make you move better. Doesn't make you more agile. Doesn't make you able to right yourself if you slip or trip. That's a big distinction to make. So very few people, including some trainers, understand the difference between bone and muscle goals. Following bone goals actually reaps the muscle benefit. So if you're beginning and within your first year going for muscle as a beginner, you should go with light and then moderate weights, and you can still increase bone density significantly for up to about 48 weeks doing moderate training. That's around 15, 16 repetitions to fatigue, and then you might plateau without some significant change to either heavier weight or some other kind of stimulus coming in. But that's a long time. That's a whole year of focused workouts that could increase your bone density. Okay, question number 5 is, did you change your stance? Somebody wanted to know, and I, I would say no, actually. I have really always believed and loved heavy, and yet I also acknowledge the fact that this study that I, I have quoted many times, starting with light, everyone has to do that. Even if bone density is your thing, by the way, if you've come off the couch and you're lifting light, you've improved your bone density, I guarantee you. To do. But then transversing and progressing into moderate weight training still is very valuable for bone density. We've seen it, we've seen it in our community. During the pandemic, people weren't going to the gyms. I had a woman start lifting weights at home. 9 months later, she did her second DEXA scan. Her bone density's improved. That was moderate weight, a repetition range around 15 or 20. So not heavy, really heavier than she was used to the year before because she hadn't done it before. And that is what you have to remember. It's greater stimulus than you had. You also have to prepare your ligaments, your tendons, connective tissue to be able to support the pull of the muscle on the bone and on the joint. I've always valued heaviest you can lift safely. For bone and for metabolism. However, I'm an endurance athlete and I've trained many endurance athletes. So I've juggled the benefits of heavier for power and for strength with a need for lower stress and optimal joint integrity because we want to save our bodies for the endurance work we're doing. You know, an overall load we just have to juggle. I don't want to overtax myself. I do want to maintain strength and power metabolism. And I've always watched since I was 30, my body composition. So watching my muscle mass to be sure I wasn't losing any, because as a triathlete, a lot of time on the bike, a lot of time in the pool, these are unloaded anti-gravity kinds of things. And so it is very easy to lose bone density and/or muscle mass. And if you lose muscle, you will lose bone density. No, no contest. So I always was lifting heavy to counteract those where low bone mass— we know Lance Armstrong, right? Osteoporosis, loading on the bike. And if somebody as powerful as him, you know, is not able to sustain his bone density as a male and he's on a bike, I knew I wasn't going to. So a biker, what I'd like to do though, strategically, when I was training for an endurance event, you know, strategically I would for myself counter the poses that I was in. So hovering over a bike in an aerodynamic stance, you know, you want to open up the chest and you want to open up your hip flexors so that you're prepared, but you also want to strengthen the glutes and the quads so you have more power for running and pedaling uphill. So you complement everything you're doing in your real life. We want to do that too. What postures are you in every single day? Let's open up the chest because we're all over a keyboard, right? Maybe you're bending over, you're caring for kids during the day. We want to open you back up. We want to open up the hip flexors. We want to stand, we want to lift, we want to stabilize. And we don't need more forward flexion, by the way. So stop those crunches and sit-ups right now. Please do yourself a favor, okay? And we don't want more just wear and tear mileage on our joints either. So So choosing appropriately to do the minimum effective stress is really a wise decision. If you choose minimum effective stress, I know that if you're an overachiever out there, this is like going against every grain in your whole body. Like, I would never do the minimum. I get it. I am an overachiever when it comes to exercise as well. I just mentioned I like endurance. And it doesn't love me back is the problem. So it's like, what have you done for me lately kind of thing. But the stance that I have is heavy works. And if you can do it, you feel good doing it. You feel— I don't mean just while you're doing it. I mean afterward, you really feel good. Keep doing it. I think so you don't lose it. But moderate works as long as it goes to failure. Light works as long as you take it nearly to muscle failure each set. The key variable is sufficient stimulus and recoverability. I want you to realize that you can do light weight and high reps, and if you go to muscle fatigue, you can do some, some good with strength and some, some strength and hypertrophy. However, you may also do wear and tear stress on the joints, and your recoverability might not be as good. So remember, power helps you reach fatigue sooner, faster. And then what are you doing? You're recovering. So you're enjoying life while you're doing that. So Pilates and yoga are not enough for strength and power. There isn't the to-fatigue occurring in either of those. Are they good activities? Absolutely. Do they still have some implementation of of muscle pulling on bone. Absolutely. Just not quite enough. Um, there is some bone density research to show yoga can help with bone density, so I don't discount that entirely. If it's all you can do, fantastic. But I wouldn't stop there. I would have it as an ancillary. It's another thing. It's an extra thing. And if you are a little anti-resistance training right now, you're not sure you're bought into that, and you will start with Yoga, start with yoga. So use all of them as a part of your routine, but not the exclusive part of your strength routine alone. After 50, recovery capacity matters as much as the intensity you get during the exercise. The goal isn't always heavy. The goal is adaptation after getting stimulus. And I'll leave you with this final thought: the goal with exercise isn't always go heavy, go heavy, go heavy, do the heaviest you possibly can. But it's actually, okay, let's cycle through. Let's start here. Let's go a little heavier. Let's go maybe a little heavier, a little challenging, and then let's drop back. And we do that, say, over the course of a month. So you're cycling, you're giving yourself the opportunity to build. I'm gonna challenge myself, and then we're gonna come way back. We're gonna really recover. So that when we start back in the next month, we're starting at a higher place than we did that last month. And we're gonna go a little bit higher yet, and then we'll come back. What happens when you cycle like that is you keep your body fresh and resilient. Because if you keep trying to go heavier and harder and heavier and harder or longer and further, if you've ever been a runner or a walker or a hiker and you try to go more and more and more and more, pretty soon You're gonna get hurt because you're not respecting the body and the, the system. So cycling through, you can keep going in those circles of cycles, can keep going a little bit higher, but it's gradual. And then every once in a while you want to take a big cycle and say, I'm gonna really do this one lower. And maybe that's the cycle that you're in your summer season of— I'm a golfer. And there's not a lot of resistance training there, but you're just strengthening enough to maintain the muscle you have and enjoying the activity you have elsewhere. And when you come back to fall, you may be stronger and more refreshed and have a fresh capacity to go in the next year. And what we wanna watch, especially if you live in a northern climate, you see this easier. From year to year, you know, you, you end your season of outdoor play maybe at the end of October or November, if you're lucky. And then you get to start again in March and you don't wanna see any decline the next time you start again. And that's success. So thinking about this, I hope this has given you some answers. If you had questions or you just need to visit this one again, in because I think there's, there's really two sides of this coin. There may be some of you listening out there and you are from the school of go hard, go heavy. I love to lift heavy. I love to do this all the time. And doing that all the time though may not be the most advantageous way to be the most fit for the longest in your life. Likewise, if you fear going heavy and you always lift light, I think if physically you are compromised, and that's what makes the most sense. Your joints, your ligaments, previous injury or current ones dictate to you, this is it. Awesome. Let's make the most of where you are right now. But if you can and you actually haven't tested, can I do a little more? Can I do a little more? You may be much more resilient than you give yourself credit for. I hope that's been helpful. If it As always, I would so love it if you would share this with at least one friend. It's how we spread the word. It's how we stay actually at the top of the charts. And thank you for keeping us there. As a listener, I appreciate you. And if you have a question that I haven't answered, but you'd love answered, you can reach me, truly reach me behind the scenes in my direct messages in Instagram. And what are you waiting for? I'll see you on the flip side.