Talent Won’t Save You Bad Teams Will Kill You - Ra’anan Cohen - Bringg & MobileMax (#95)

At the age of 30, no background, no tech education, etc. Suddenly I'm the CEO of a public company. The company was less than 3 years old, so everything was skyrocketing. I received a phone call. We want to buy from you stock at $10 million. So in a press of a button, you have $10 million in the bank account. And the call ended with me not selling. In 2012, I found myself after an 8-year adventure at the age of 40 with a lot of memories, cool t-shirts, with not a cent in my bank from all this adventure, from being at the top of the world with, on paper, worth tens and even hundreds of millions to zero. I went to a lot of startup meetups. I was the guy everyone was pointing out saying, hey, he did an IPO, has millions in the bank.

Today's guest is a founder who's seen the startup journey from just about every angle. He's a serial entrepreneur, having founded multiple companies including MobileMax and Brain.

No one knew I didn't take a dollar. No one knew I'm broke. I'm struggling to reinvent myself. Eventually, In 2021, when we hit the unicorn, the $1 billion valuation, I sold my shares. The 8-year lesson and scar from MobileMax kicked in big time.

Today's guest is a founder who's seen the startup journey from just about every angle. His next act is sharing the good, bad, and ugly of that journey. He's a serial entrepreneur, having founded multiple companies, including MobileMax and Bring. Bring, a leader in last-mile delivery technology, was valued at over $1 billion when Insight Venture Partners invested in 2021. Ranan wrote a book called Confessions of a Unicorn Founder, where he pulls back the curtain on what it actually looks like to build and scale a high-growth company. The pressure, the mistakes, the personal cost, and the lessons most founders only learn the hard way. I'm so excited for this conversation. I actually saw Renan speak to a group of founders recently, and I couldn't believe how transparent he was. And honestly, I started this podcast to have these kinds of conversations. So, with that, please welcome founder, author, and entrepreneur, Renan Cohen.

Hi, David. Thanks for having me.

I'm excited for this. I've been looking forward to this conversation since that webinar. So, Okay, let's start. First question, what is the one thing that you did big or small at your companies that had the biggest impact and you would do again if you're CEO of another company in the future?

Yeah, so I think my journey, first company MobileMax, 8 years including an IPO and then Bring, 5 years reaching to unicorn. What I learned is that building the team is the number one factor by far. And what I learned following my first round, that it's not only about capabilities and talent, it's also about personality and attitude. And at Bringg, my second company, we had a very strict no asshole policy. And we built the company in times where the market was very competitive about talent. But we remained very, very strong about getting the right people, the right personalities, the right attitude. We looked at it, and again, after a first round, I understood that it's a marathon. It's a long-lasting journey, and you need people that can contribute and bring positivity to the journey. Talent is not enough. So this is something that I emphasize a lot, entrepreneurs and young founders, founders that I work with today.

How, when you were in that interview process at Bringg, how would you identify this? Was there a question you asked? Was there an interview process thing that you added? How did you do that?

So, yeah, so first, our HR department, they knew to flag for me special things that I looked for. For example, if I love sports, marathon running, any kind of sports, I had someone, she was a swimmer in the national team. Any kind of sports tells me a lot. It tells me that someone has been into the grind for a long period of time, day in, day out, went into tough positions. I mean, it's all about carrying on once it gets really, really tough. And not only that, but keeping the spark. So I'm looking for these kind of experiences. It could be sports. It could be even hobbies, things that mean you woke up one morning after the other. There were periods where you didn't like it and you still showed up. So these were kind of indications. Again, it could be education. It could be volunteer work. It could be anything that lasted for years. And during this journey of yours, you face challenges and you manage to go through them. So this is one thing that I look for in experience. Doing the interview, you know, I truly believe in reflecting and framing the journey. And because many of us, you know, we go into a startup or we go into something new and we see only the flair and the happy hours and the IPOs. And we all know that 90% of the time it's not like that. So I look for a— I ask for experiences where they were facing crises, the way they handled it, how they see their position coming into the company going forward. And I very much look into people that realize that they are going into a marathon. And in a marathon, there are miles where you have pain, there are miles where you wish you weren't there, and there are miles where you're asking yourself, what am I doing here? And you still go on. So I'm looking for this kind of attitude.

The part you said about the positivity is really interesting because I feel like that is understated. I've done a lot of these interviews and I haven't— we haven't really talked about that topic. And it's when you're on that marathon, having somebody who has that positivity and can spread that positivity into their teams, into the company, it's a really valuable asset we don't even really think about. You know, you think about the grit and the resilience and the this and the k— but that positivity, especially when you're on this kind of a journey, is— I like that point a lot.

That's a must because in the startup journey, there's so many uncertainties. One thing is certain, there are going to be crises and big ones. And I want people coming into the journey realizing that. And when the shit hits the fan, you know, I like to even talk about it in company happy hours when we had like tough, tough times. I said, hey, you see this point of time that we're in where we lost a customer or something happened or we are in a deadlock with the product. I want you to remember this day. 'Cause we're gonna pass it and we're gonna look back at it and remember how everything is dark and we managed to pass it. Now, once you do this drill over and over, it's just like when I go out for my morning run and I'm starting to feel my legs, it's kind of like my body knows, okay, we've been there. And you know, let's have even a tiny smile And let's go on with it. And because this is mandatory, because the crisis is for sure, uh, it will come through. This is one thing common to any founder and any, uh, war stories that you hear. They were very deep and surprising crisis, and you need the resilience and the positive way, not in the survival way. Yeah.

Interesting. When you talk about that, I had this— I think people understanding the origin stories of the businesses, people understanding this folklore as you talk about these challenges that we've been through and how we made it through. I think it's really important. I've been thinking a lot recently about how, you know, when you get to the second or third or fourth generation of employees of a company, keeping what you just said, ground, keeping everyone grounded. Hey, I know you joined, we're already worth a billion dollars, we're growing like this, but do you know that when we were, you know, 5 guys in a garage, we actually almost went out of business and we were able to, and actually building that storytelling ability is really important because if you get to that 5th generation, they forget, they don't know, they don't know what what it took to get there. And the next time there's a crisis, they say, we're going to go out of business. I quit. We're going to go out of business. You know, but if they know that you went through those, what you just said, like those challenges and you made it through, it has like a different view of the business.

Yes, absolutely. And also for some, many of the team members are not that experienced. And I remember in the weekly like happy hours, Sometimes I used to say, hey, we had a great week, great progress, amazing. And some of them would tell me, you know, Israeli startups, everyone talks very freely. So it doesn't matter what the CEO says. And so they would call on me and say, hey, what are you talking about? This was a nightmare week. You know, we lost this customer and we have so many bugs and we have this and we have that. And I told them, all the things you described now, This is great. This is amazing. These are steps that we are going through the way of progress. And of course that we are going into a new territory, new customers, there will be new bugs. And of course, when we are growing that fast, some things are not perfect. This means we had a great week. So it's a lot about framing. And when you understand, and just like when you're finishing a long run, Preparing for a marathon and your legs are bruised and you finish it and I tell myself, hey, this was a great run. 'Cause it was. It doesn't mean, it's just like, you know, when I like to talk about like my family, I have 4 kids, married over 20 years. So then we have a great family and I have a great relationship. It doesn't mean that when we go on family vacations, I don't wanna jump out of the window in, in certain minutes. But still, overall, this is in my definition a great family, and then this is in my definition a great week for startup. And I, you know, I kind of pushed it like a mantra, and it builds resilience because then the team starts to look at challenges and at the hard times at the same manner and, and with the, with the attitude of This is what we signed up for. It's supposed to hurt. This is reality. And we can, we can take it.

And the weirdest part is that in all the companies I've been a part of, when the company exits, when I exit the company and I get back together with the people 2 years later, 5 years later, we get on the phone. People talk about the hardest times, not the times when everything— they remember when we had that thing and we all did this and we— it's kind of interesting. You know, I read a lot about Mount Everest and I've never done it. I don't think I ever will, but I read a lot about it. And it talks about how actually people remember the hardest parts of the climb more than they remember summiting. Like, actually the hardest parts of the climb are the things that they reflect on and say, I made it through Camp 2, Camp 3, that was the most dangerous, that was the most— and the summit is important, but actually the hard parts of the climb is what they're the most proud of, you know. And so it's kind of a similar situation.

Absolutely, I relate to it 100%. And the young founders that I follow today when they're facing a very difficult challenge, I always tell them, listen, this will be a great chapter, an amazing chapter in your book. So, I'm very happy for you that you're fortunate to face this challenge.

So, let's talk about, you know, through your journey, you've faced a number of challenges yourself. Can you give me just a little bit of the background on MobileMax just, you know, so we have a context of what kind of business that was And then I'd like to talk about kind of that journey and, you know, what happened with MobileMax. But I think it's important because of the timing to understand kind of what that journey looked like and what that company did.

Yeah, definitely. So I'm personally a late bloomer. I came into tech only at the age of 30. I studied accounting. I had no tech background. I found myself working for a startup as a project manager. Been there 3 years. After 3 years, I decided to open my own startup. It was like mid-2000. The mobile industry was blooming. And I had this idea of smartphones were starting to come out. It was like 2004. And I had this idea of if we have a smartphone, why can't we have technology that will identify expensive calls and reroute them? And it was pretty vague, but I went out with it. And all the stars aligned in the sense that the market was very hyped. For mobile technologies. And eventually, my idea turned out into a platform where you can develop once and deploy it on multiple devices. Back then, there was a jungle of devices— Nokia and Microsoft, BlackBerry, LG, et cetera— non-compatible. We had a platform that you develop once. It works on all the devices. So it's magic for the telecom providers, for Verizon, AT&T, or these guys. And so from day one, we raised money from VCs. And they started signing up customers all around the world—Telefónica in Spain, Singtel in Singapore, Verizon in the US, AT&T—all around the world, opened offices around the world. The company was exploding. Less than 3 years later, underwriters came over, said, hey, we have been following MobileMax. We want to take it public. We did an IPO in 2007. The company was less than 3 years old. So everything was skyrocketing. Now, if we zoom out a bit, you know, me, Ranan, I was still with the strong imposter syndrome coming into the industry at the age of 30, no background, no tech education, etc. Suddenly, I'm the CEO of a public company. I'm on stage. I'm in financial news. So, and I mean, like my early 30s, and I must admit, All this success, on one hand, it builds the most important muscle in my view that you can build, which is the muscle of believing everything is possible. So, you know, and we kept on growing up, but it has also a dark side. The dark side, at least in my experience, was that with all this success, I kind of felt like unstoppable, like I'm a Superman. And nothing would ever stop me. And, you know, it's the only way is up. And just a few months after the IPO, I received a phone call from one of the institutional investors saying, hey, Ronan, we want to buy from you stock at $10 million. It's just a part of your stocks. And the beauty of it, it's a public company. You just say yes. And in the press of a button, You have $10 million in the bank account. And me, at my early 30s, I find myself answering them, I appreciate the offer, but the company is only worth $100 million. It will be worth billions. Selling now doesn't make sense. I'm leaving money on the table. And, you know, these are experienced bankers. So they said, okay, are you finished with the bullshit CEO talk? You know, everyone says it and everyone plays along, but everyone sells. So come on, you know, I know you have a family, you have kids, you have a mortgage. Take the $10 million, have your financial cushion, and you still have a lot of shares to dream. And they say yes, and we have a deal. Now, back then, you know, today I want to believe that I respond differently to these kind of situations. Back then, I was hearing between the lines that he doesn't believe that I have the balls not to sell. So I went even more all in and the call ended with me not selling. And a few months later, we're talking about now 2007, the iPhone came in and after that Android came in. So the entire mobile industry was reshuffled and instead of a jungle of devices, it took a few years. But, like, as they say in Wall Street, like gradually and then suddenly, the entire mobile industry shifted to a duopoly of two operating systems, iPhone and Android. And a platform like ours that unifies development over multiple devices, suddenly we lost our value. And the company started in its spiral death. I mean, we tried spinning, we tried selling to Google, and there were several anecdotes along the way. But eventually, in 2012, I found myself after an 8-year adventure at the age of 40, um, with a lot of memories, cool t-shirts, with not a cent in my bank from all this adventure. I didn't— because I didn't sell one, one stock. Now This, you know, obviously has implications on me, on the family, on my life, you know, from being at the top of the world with, on paper, worth tens and even hundreds of millions to zero. And I found myself starting from zero, trying to reinvent myself and with no light at the end of the tunnel.

Because one of the things, you know, when you say that feeling like Superman, I think that most founders, anyone who's been part of a company that's been successful, there is a moment in time, especially first-time founders. I think every founder I've worked with myself, like, you feel like Superman. You feel like this can't go down now. I mean, now we're just going up into the right. I'm raising all this money at these high valuations. I feel like right now, like literally as we speak, we are going through this moment with the AI first-time founders, AI companies where, you know, they're doing $2 million of revenue, $10 million, $50 million, but they're raising at $1 billion, $2 billion, $3 billion. I've talked to some of them and they literally will say, yeah, I mean, this is, we're going to be a $100 billion company. Yeah. You know, I talked to some founders, they said to me, I said, would you sell the company today? They're $20 million of ARR. I said, would you sell the company today if someone offered you a billion? They said, no way. I said, $2 billion? No way. I said, what are you trying to aim for? They said, we're gonna be a public company. And I said, let me just tell you, I promise you if someone offers you $2 billion of cash for your $20 million company, take it instantaneously. And they said, you're crazy, Dave. We are building a public company. And it was their first company and possible, possible, but you know, not probable. And I think what you just described is how so many, we don't talk about, actually we don't talk about this enough of this is the most, so many people have that moment. And the question is, you know, can you get out before that moment, you know, before you get over that or you kind of get stuck in this situation, which you got stuck in, which I think is what 90%, I mean, it has to be statistically 90-something percent of people never actually get the liquidity. They never go public. They never, you know, Yeah, exactly.

And, you know, I have these talks almost on a weekly basis with founders I work with that are in this skyrocket startup. And, you know, one of them, I told him, listen, at least cash out a little, take something just for security. You're a first-time founder. You don't have any substantial equity. And he looked at me and he says, you know, Ronan, I think you lost your edge. Look at the, look at the facts. We're exploding. I don't need to take money off the table. You used to be brave. I used to look up, up to you, and now you're talking about— so because it's kind of a paradox, you know, we have in, in our industry, we have the winner's bias and, and the survivor's bias. We, every day we see in the media the, the new unicorn, the new IPO, and this one exited, and we don't see the other 99, and we get the feeling that everyone is killing it, that it's a one-way rocket to the moon. And if we are fortunate to be on such a ride, it's very hard for the founder. It's like he's on a trip to realize that, you know, there is not a non-significant chance that it will end up with nothing. So, I have, you know, in the tech community here in Israel, they know I have like, I call it a founder's emergency room where you can call me 24/7, anytime. And there's two conditions for this emergency room. One, the first one is if someone offers you a big chunk of money to buy your shares or some of your shares and you're considering not to sell, Immediately call me, I'll slap your ass and we'll make sure that you don't make a big mistake out of it.

So yeah, it's, uh, I think it's very timely. This, this right at this moment in all these peaks in '21, today, like in these peaks, this, this, this advice is, is so timely.

Yeah, I have, I have friends in 2021 when, when it was the peak of the bubble and then we hit unicorn and I have friends who were on paper, you know, worth like $70, $80 million each. And they could have took money home, but they said, you know, you know, we'll do it in the next round or the next, next round or whatever. Everything is going amazing. And suddenly came 2022 and the valuations dropped and suddenly things happen. And now you're sitting on a piece of paper and that's worth nothing. So, so, and this is a very hard, you know, one, one challenge to, for a founder We all know the statistics. So one challenge is that if you go in and your company crashes, you know, this is the statistics. This is one mental challenge to go through. And more difficult one is that when you hit the jackpot, like you, for example, in my case, when I did an IPO, IPO is like you get on the podium and you have this big prize and the investors can sell and you can take money. And instead of taking the prize, You put it all on the roulette. This is another level of sleepless nights because you were one of the lucky ones and for ego, for recklessness, for I don't know how to call it, you know, you just gambled on it and this has implications.

So let's talk about for you, MobileMax, you end, you know, it goes to zero. How did you deal with that? How did you talk to your wife about that, your family about that? Like, how did you deal with that in, in that moment in time?

Yeah, so this is, this was very, very complicated days. I wrote a lot about it. So my wife, Ravit, I was fortunate that we have an amazing relationship where, you know, she kind of, uh, the style is that Okay, I don't worry. You probably built another one. I'm sure it will turn out fine. This is kind of the attitude. So I had one less front to handle. But I remember there was— it took almost a year until I had the chance to found Bringg. And during this year, I went to a lot of startup meetups and investor meetups. And in the local industry, in the local ecosystem, I was the guy everyone was pointing out saying, hey, he did an IPO, took— had— has millions in the bank, and now he's doing another round for fun. No one knew I didn't take a dollar. No one knew I'm broke and I'm struggling to reinvent myself. And I remember before going in, I used to do like a short meditation to put on a million-dollar smile walking around, like, you know, I made it. And this was very tough for me. And by the way, this was one of the reasons I wrote the book, because in our industry and I think even in general today, there is a strong culture of fake it till you make it. And I'm a— I like it. You know, I believe in this kind of attitude of manifestation. You know, you need to manifest success and you need to show success in order for success to come. I believe in it 100%. But this has a dark side. The dark side, and I remember myself walking into these meetups, and for guys who haven't been into startup investor meetups, the vibe is, you know, you have baristas, you have barmen, and the words that are floating are exciting, killing it, fabulous. Everyone has this million-dollar smile. And I remember going home from these events sleepless nights thinking, what's going on here? Everyone seems so successful, so easygoing, and I'm struggling to fall asleep feeling that everything is so tough for me. So, so, you know, it could lead to a conclusion of whether, well, maybe I'm not suitable for this kind of game, or maybe I'm not on the right path because It feels like I'm the only one struggling. Later, as the years passed, I learned that everyone is struggling. Everyone is faking it. Everyone is worried today. And since my book came out, I have like daily interactions with founders of unicorns, IPOs, and early stage. Everyone, everyone is struggling. Even the ones that we look at and we see and we think that, okay, they have it all. Going on for them and they're already in the right place, they're still struggling. And everyone is fighting their own battle. And I think it's very, very important to, to understand it because just like in marathon training, for example, I go back to sports and marathons that I love. In marathon training, there is the famous wall after like 3 hours of running. Your, your body is, is— there's no glycogen and, and You suddenly feel like you can't move on. And the medicine to it is just continue, continue. Even if you slow down, continue and it will pass. And everyone that trains for a marathon knows about this phenomenon. And once it hits you, I remember myself in my first marathon, I even kind of say, hey, I got the wall. Wow, it's pretty cool. Let's, let's see how I handle it in the founder life, no one tells you about these walls. And especially founders that usually there are people who are used to be cheered, they're used to all their lives since they're kids, these are humans that are used to get applause. Suddenly you start going for the startup world, you're looking for funding, you go to investors, they ghost you, they don't answer you, they tell you that it doesn't So you're starting to be in a reality that if you are not prepared and if you don't understand that this is the reality, it might push you to pull out the white flag or to feel that you don't belong. So I think this dark side, you know, where people like to say startup is like a roller coaster. I think this is very misleading because roller coasters, you know, the 50% of the time go up, 50% go down. This is like physics in the startup life. As a founder, I think that 90, 95% of the time I'm in crisis mode, depression mode, crisis management mode, and maybe there's like 5% of joy. So it's more like a marathon. It's most of the time grind and crisis management. And it's very important to understand it because once you understand that this is the reality that I need to handle, it's not a problem that I need to avoid. This is a reality. This will be my life for the years that I chose to put on my new venture. And just like in winter that it rains here, my life is about handling this kind of stress. And I think this is, this is a must. To understand and to frame your journey in this manner in order to survive it in a positive manner.

Yeah, you know, when it was my son's 12th birthday recently, you know, I was going through photos with him. He wanted to look at photos of him as a kid and as a baby. And we were looking at photos and it was in the years that I was building BetterCloud in the early years. And I saw that I'm absent for most of the photos actually when they're like real babies, important moments when they, my second one was born, I was there and then had to leave for a VC meeting. When my older, when they started to walk, I wasn't there because I was traveling for work. When all these various things, but also I see myself getting more and more tired in the photos, you know, less and less. I can see it in my own, like in the photos, you know, I look exhausted. I'm in the background, like on the couch trying to sleep, you know, any minute that I can get, you know, all of this stuff. And I, as I was reflecting on it, I thought to myself, because I've thought this a lot and you kind of were just saying it just then, is, is this something that I needed to do? Did I need to do that? Or could I have built the company, you know, over a decade with more work-life balance, with being there, with making, you know, less sacrifices? And actually, my unfortunate truth at the end of my reflection over that weekend was, no, actually, I'm not sure I would have achieved what I achieved.

100%. 100%. You know, and that's why I think also People talk about work-life balance, which is great. But if you're going into the founder play, you know, there's no work-life balance. You can close your laptop. And I used to be, I'm a family man and we used to travel a lot with the kids. I used to be there with them on the beach. But as a founder, 100% of your energy is on your venture. And I remember Ravid used to tell me, hey, we're talking, but I see you're not with me. Because this is a— a founder needs to have this internal fire and obsession even over what we're building. And it comes with a price. It comes with a price. And is it worth it? It's a different question. But I believe today that even if you're not a founder, even if you're a lawyer or a banker, almost in every position in today's world, there's a lot of stress and there's no real work-life balance. So you, I kind of believe that you sacrifice almost in every, I would say, capitalistic path that you choose. But as a founder, I don't think, just like you said, there's no on and off or there's no dial where I can play with it. It's just like I said, I remember I used to do stuff that Later on, before going to sleep, I would say, why did I do this today instead of being with the kids? This could have waited. But that's, I think that's the dark side of the secret sauce that keeps on pushing and what can we do more and faster and stronger.

When you were in this period of time, that one year between MobileMax and Bring, Was there anyone that you could talk to? Like, I know exactly what you're talking about. Everyone thinks you crushed it. You're doing great. You know, this was— there anyone that you confided in? I assume your wife, but was there anyone else? Investors, friends? Like, could you talk about this?

Did you talk? Not really. Even my wife, she knew, but I didn't want, you know, I didn't want to make her worry. And so I kind of, you know, I played it like it's okay. I'm working on my next thing. And, and during this year, I, I kept on trying new stuff, you know, like crazy stuff, like, like a dating service for 70-year-olds, diet, gambling, whatever, you know. I, I shot all over the place. And this was a very, very lonely period because there's no one really that you can talk to or you want to talk to, at least in my case. And So, you know, I kind of grind it until just like most of the things in my life, one night by chance, the pizza was late. So every Thursday night we have a pizza night and the pizza was late again. And we're talking now, it's about, it's like 2013, right? We had Uber, we had Amazon Prime, but it was the early days of delivery. And, you know, it blew my mind. I said, okay, why can't I have the same experience I get when I book an Uber or when I order on Amazon? Why can't I have it when I order pizza and see where the delivery guy is and have this optimized, etc.? And I looked into it and the answer was pretty clear that these companies, whether it's pizza or other companies that deliver goods to customers, They are not technology companies. They are not Amazon. They are not Uber. So, what happens is that the— back then, e-commerce was 5% out of retail. Today, it's like 20%, but it was exploding. Now, e-commerce, you know, e-commerce is a fancy word for logistics. You order stuff and you need to get them. So, in the first years of e-commerce, everyone was amazed that you can order online and get it. But once we got used to it, now it's not enough. Now the bar is set higher and we want to get it fast and we want to get it in a convenient manner. And companies like Amazon and Uber and the new guys, they set a new standard in delivery and they did it. But with technology, they developed very advanced logistics technology that enabled them to optimize, etc. And this sparked the insight that if I could build similar technology and provide it to the old guys, to the Fortune 5000, the non-new guys, that they could compete back with the new guys, this would be great. And I hooked up with a buddy of mine from one of the marathons, Lior. He was the CTO of GetTaxi. GetTaxi is Israel's Uber. So like the number one person to develop such a platform. And we started Bringg. So Bringg was a SaaS, a software as a service company that developed technology for companies that have deliveries and enabling these companies to have very advanced capabilities. So we had customers like Walmart and McDonald's and Coca-Cola and Pizza Hut and AutoZone. Any company that has large-scale deliveries now was challenged by Amazon and the other new guys to deliver it faster, more optimized, et cetera. And the company from day one, again, skyrocketed. It was the stars aligned in a way where e-commerce is growing, logistics technology is super in demand. And here, you know, we already came, I came as a second timer after an IPO and Leo was a, a very, very famous in the tech world personality. So investors kind of lined up, and we were cashing in funding. Like, the company raised like $200 million. But from the beginning, every 3 months, we had funding rounds, doubling the valuations, tripling the valuations. And this time, I learned. So we always had overbooking of investors. And from a certain point when the company reached like, I think, $100 million valuation, when there was overbooking, we sold some shares, me and my co-founder and employees. So every round we sold some, half a million, a million, $2 million, like, and this thing grew. Now in my case, some of the investors, some of the shareholders, they didn't like it. You know, in general, you can, in this context, you can split the investors in the world into two philosophies. The old school, they believe that the founders and employees should stay like broke until the mega exit. This will keep them hungry, this will keep them working harder, etc. The new and more common belief today among investors is that, okay, if someone has a dream of $1 million, let's make him get this million so he would dream of $10 million. And if he has a $10 million dream, once he will touch it, he will— this is the capitalistic world we're living in, right? The hedonic treadmill that we're running on where we crave something. And I kind of swear to the universe, just get me this and I will never ask for something again. And once we get it, we want more and more. And so in my case, I had investors who were old school and they didn't like the fact that we are selling secondary and selling more. So this created situations between me and some VCs. And I wrote an entire book about it. And eventually, in 2021, when we hit the unicorn, the $1 billion valuation, I sold my shares. And since then, I'm not active in the company. And I said, you know, Okay, for me it's enough. By the way, the gossip in the tech ecosystem back then, 2021, again, it was like crazy days. The gossip was like, Ronan left at a billion. Well, Bringg will definitely be at Nasdaq at $10 billion in a year or two tops. He left so much money on the table. And I used to say, you know, I know it. I believe it too. I believe that this will happen. But this is enough for me. Enough. You know, obviously then came 2022 and things were not that sunny anymore. But I think the 8-year lesson and scar from MobileMax kicked in big time. And that's when I pulled the plug. And one of the first things I decided that I said, you know, After 13 years as CEO and founder, I feel like strong urge to write the story of behind the scenes of the founder, the startup world. Initially, I didn't think I will publish it. I thought I will write it and just give it away to founders or aspiring founders. And eventually, it found itself to a publishing house. After it was released, it literally changed my life because it became like a number one national bestseller and created a lot of impact. And now it's in universities. I give a lot of talks and mentor and in social ventures. So it opened for me a new life.

One thing I want to go to, something you said about the secondary and the different types of investors. Because I've seen— I actually have two companies that have raised in the last couple of months, and one of those companies, the investor said no way to secondary. And I told the founder, you're oversubscribed, take the secondary. And it was, you know, this back and forth. And then I have a different one who went through the process, and their new investor actually urged them to take a lot, like millions in secondary. Exactly what you just said. Literally the two situations we just went through And I see it. Yes, I went through it myself, but now seeing two founders of a similar age in their early 30s with kids, you know, like right at the same place and the one that's taking millions, it is going to complete— I would bet almost anything that company is going to go through. He has so much stress with his two kids and his this, and he's had no liquidity and he's burning into every dollar he saved. He's going to go in credit card debt and you give him that money. It's not like he's going to go buy a house or something. Like, he literally is going to take the money, put it in the bank, but now he doesn't have to stress that he can send his children to school and this and that. And he's going to go— I can already see it. Like, he's going to go and crush it. Now, if you gave him $100 million, maybe that's a different story. I mean, that may be a different story. But the other one was fighting over a difference between $250,000 and $500,000 of secondary, as if it's— like, what is that going to do in today's— in living in New York City? It's not even, you know, it's just some buffer. Yeah. But I've seen that. And I definitely think investors who have not been on the founder side or they're not the founders of their fund or they're not, they don't understand actually that all that stress and the distraction and the sacrifices you're making and your spouse being pissed off because you're not, you could solve a little bit of that at least with that. I mean, that's such a, it's such a good point.

I relate to that so much. And not only that, you know, you will grow his dream. Because once he's, he's broke and he's stressed, he's saying, okay, you know what, if someone buys my company for $30 million or whatever, this is my dream. Suddenly, if he gets a few million or whatever in the bank, the dream will automatically grow. And, and I learned that, you know, now I invest in startups and I see it every day that, you know, this, uh, founders that do secondary, suddenly they look differently at the world. The, the stress is, is, is removed. And I totally agree with the distinction between investors that have been founders or not, because if you've been a founder, you realize that a founder has a burning fire It's like an internal engine that you can't turn off. It doesn't matter if it takes money. It doesn't matter. You can't turn it off. He will continue. You are just moving the distraction of the stress and enabling him to continue. It won't turn it off. And I think this is today the majority of the modern investors realize that because we are all living this trap of, you know, just a little bit more. Where we always have a number in our minds, and once we reach this number, suddenly there's a new number being born that you aim for. And doing secondaries, I think it's also making the, the, the balance between investors and VCs and, and founders more fair in a sense where they, they startups in some cases they run for 10, 15 years. The journeys become longer because the companies are built, built bigger. Now, during these years, a VC that invested in early stage and suddenly the company is worth $200 million, $400 million, $500 million, they— and the fact that their investment grew so much, they go and raise a second round and a third. Such a good point.

Such a good point.

Even if they don't sell, they cash big time on this development. So it's just fair that the founders and the employees, after working 4, 5, 6 years, would also benefit from this capital gain. It's fair, you know. So, so I think in, in all— that's a good point.

That's a, that's a good point. Yeah, I never really thought about it that way, that they're getting the benefits. I mean, of course they're getting the benefits on their fundraisers and everything else. More management fees. Yeah, yeah.

They don't even need an exit. Everything grows just because of the fact that they came in at a $50 million valuation and now it's $500 million.

One founder told me maybe the best way I've ever heard it described because I've felt this and I've seen it with other founders is someone said to me when they took secondary that they had an open loop in their brain for 11 years until they got like $5 million of secondary and they built a company worth $1 billion. And they said they had this open loop. And as soon as they took that money, it closed the loop that every single day they had the question, what if this goes to zero? And they said, as soon as that loop was closed, to exactly your point, they viewed it at that point. Okay, let's go. Let's now at this point, let's swing for the fences. Like you said, let's make this thing worth $10 billion. But they had this open loop. I was with the founder in a, in a, after an event, we got an Uber and in the Uber, he literally was on his phone. Doing a calculation, just us sitting there, of how much his equity was worth. And I said, wow, you're like, you know, what are you doing? And he told me, and he's like, yeah, I'm just thinking if— I'm like, how often do you do that? He says, every day. Like, I basically every day try to do the calculation, you know, of what it's worth with no secondary, no— same kind of thing. And it's like this open loop. And I— all the things you said, I, I I really, the investors I talk to, I urge them to tell their founders to take secondary because of all of these reasons. And I think it does work. I don't know that all VCs agree with it, but I do think that it also creates a much better relationship if we're being honest, because now that founder looks at that VC in a different way. They got me that money. Now I should deliver for that. You know, so, okay, let's talk about, so this chapter that you're in now, this is like a very different chapter for you because you went from being, running businesses, building companies, to being an author. And then now it sounds like you're getting into, you know, maybe making a movie or series about this or something. Like, can you talk about that?

Yes. So, yeah, so just over 12 months ago, I released the book, and then last month it's released internationally on Amazon. And, you know, first of all, I found that the experience of writing was kind of this reflection kind of brought everything into closure and therapeutic. It's like therapeutic, totally therapeutic. It's things that if someone would have told me 5 years ago, you know, writing is therapeutic, etc., I would tell them, hey man, come on, go easy on what you're taking. Because, and it was like magic, this process of writing and putting it out. And once it got out with the impact and feedback that I got, so today, you know, my wife said I'm more busy than when I was a CEO. Today, all day I'm communicating with readers, I'm lecturing, I'm giving talks and workshops, all voluntarily. So, it fills me so much. And this rolled into a, again, this production company buying the rights to develop a TV series. So I went to study screenwriting so I can communicate with the team. And now I'm doing Zoom calls with Hollywood. So I'm actually in my new startup. I'm building a new network. I'm learning new terms. And I love the fact that after building two companies, you kind of— at least for myself, I thought, OK, I don't know what will be next, but I don't think it would be this exciting because, you know, I've been through quite a lot. And I must say that these days with all the things that are going on behind this, it's even more exciting for me than the startup days. So working with founders and communicating about it. So I really found a new journey. I'm still very active in the ecosystem. Them, but now in a different angle. And I see it like, you know, I, I would— I don't know, I wouldn't use large words like, like life mission, but I have a strong passion about communicating this stuff. And on a daily basis when I, I talk to founders, you know, my number one, I think, the value that I bring is when they, they, they, they reflect in the situation that they are in and what's going on I, I, 90% of the value that I bring is just saying, hey man, you're okay, you're on track, this happens to everyone, everyone is going into these phases, and, and, and, you know, just, just handle it, and, and this is okay. That's 90% of the value that I bring, uh, because I, I, I, again, reflecting on my journey, I think one of the biggest challenges is that back then, at least, I didn't realize that this is the game. And when you know that this is the game, then you can handle it in a more calm manner and everything takes a different kind of level. So, yeah, so I'm super excited and I wake up every morning with strong desire and this is my new startup. Yeah, it's amazing.

I mean, I think, you know, to your point about telling founders that this is just, this is how it is, you know, I always remember this moment. We had an advisor, I talk about him a lot. He was the CFO of Atlassian, this guy, Alex Estevez, and he was helping us. He became an advisor and investor. He was helping us at BetterCloud. And we had this offsite and we were having all kinds of problems with the business and all this stuff. And I said, in front of everyone, I said to him, Alex, you probably never dealt with this at Atlassian. I mean, 'Best software company ever. No salespeople. People just bought the, you know, like must have been the easiest thing ever.' And he said, 'Dave, we had a saying that if any time things were going well, it was just because we were in the eye of the storm. We either came out of a big problem or about to walk into a big problem, but it lasted only a couple of days. And, you know, we were, we were kind of back in it.' And when he said that to me, it really, it did, it helped me reframe to your point exactly. Like it just, if you're going through it, having someone who's been through it say, this is, this is just what it is. Then you're like, okay, well, it sucks, but at least, you know, at least I know I'm not alone and all the shit that I see on social media is not true, that everyone else is just crushing it and all the people at the events that are high-fiving are actually struggling. Like, once you understand that and break all of that down, it does make it a little bit, a little bit easier.

Yeah, you know, just like we're in the gym and I'm doing a set and in my last last reps, the muscle burns, right? We know that that's how it is. So I think this, this, this kind of stuff is a— has a lot of value. And I feel very fortunate to be able to, to share from my experience and to communicate. And, you know, this is great.

I'll ask you one last question. Um, Knowing everything that you know today, all the experiences, all the stuff you've written about, everything you've seen in this world, what is the one piece of advice you would go back and give yourself before you started your first job? Not even first company, but before you started your first job ever, what is that one piece of advice that you would give yourself?

I would tell myself, you know, it's going to be hard, even very hard sometimes, but it's okay. That's, that's, that's the game. That's the journey. Don't get too excited when you face these challenges and just know that you're signing up for this kind of game and go for it. It's okay.

People want to buy the book. What's the— just go to Amazon, Confessions of a Unicorn Founder?

Yeah, just go Amazon.

Great. Awesome. Hernan, thank you so much for doing this with me. I really, really enjoyed this. I hope when I come to Israel, we can get together and keep talking. And yeah, thank you. It was really— I think that people are going to love this episode.

Thanks, David. I had a great time. Awesome.

I thank you everyone for listening. If you enjoyed, please share this out with your networks and we'll see you for the next episode of Not Another CEO Podcast.