The Art of Brand Building - Jennifer Zuccarini - Fleur du Mal - Episode #43

It is a part of the deal, so might as well try to enjoy it.

Welcome to Not Another CEO Podcast. I'm your host, David Politis. Every week we talk to inspiring leaders and get the true stories, the ups and downs, the lessons learned, and come away with actionable advice for our own journeys. Today's guest is a true pioneer in the world of luxury lingerie and intimate apparel. She is the founder and CEO of Fleur du Malle, a brand known for redefining the lingerie industry with its bold fashion forward designs that blur the line between innerwear and outerwear. She's a multi time founder and this is her second company in this space. Her designs have been celebrated by top fashion publications, worn by celebrities and featured on countless red carpets and runways. She's not only a creative force, but also a savvy business leader who continues to expand her brand in some very interesting ways. Please welcome founder and CEO of Fleur de Mall, Jennifer Zuccharini.

Hi David. Thank you so much for having me.

I'm excited, I'm very excited to have you here today. We're going to get started with the first question that I ask all my guests. What is the one thing you've done at Florida Mile, big or small, that's had the biggest impact and you'd absolutely do again if you're CEO of another company in the future?

I think one thing I've done that really took me a few years to understand was how, and you hear this a lot from founders, but how important it is to focus on the team and recognize the team and create that culture. I think early years I was somebody who was so focused on building the vision and creating the brand that I wasn't investing as much in nurturing my team. And now I feel like we've created all these great things at Fleur where we recognize and appreciate the team and you know, like your team wants, they want to feel heard, they want to feel that you care about them. And I really changed my thinking about the way I approached this a few years ago. So we've added, we have different things that we do, but for example, we have employee of the season. So we recognize every season a new employee. Everyone kind of people vote on it. But in the end we try to look at it like not just the person who gets the most votes, but who really, from a management perspective has stood out and contributed to the culture of Fleur. We also, we celebrate everybody's birthday. So if it's someone's birthday, you get to pick. Like if David, we'll be like, what's your favorite thing for your birthday? You're like, I love chocolate. Chocolate cake. So we'll have chocolate cakes for your birthday. Get everybody together, team drinks, team outings. We just had a spring Equinox party. So I really have understood the value of investing and taking care of the team in that way and bringing people together.

Yeah. You know, the thing is when you do that, it takes a lot of effort. Right. I mean when you talk about that, like, I think that's why at least for me as a first time founder, I didn't actually do any of those things because it's, you kind of, you assume that even like, oh, I, one on one I told that person they did an amazing job, like that's enough. But, but when you do it publicly, that's, I think that's at least a lot of people, they want that, that public recognition, you know.

Well, I think early years as a founder, you're, you're grinding, you know, like you're just. I was focusing on surviving and growing and I wasn't really, I didn't have the bandwidth or the space to think about that. And it also took really having somebody on my team who works with me, who cares about that with the team that helps me create programs like that.

Who does that for, who does that with you?

We have, it's our, it's our office manager and she also handles a lot of our HR in that way, like kind of culture and office manager.

I love it. And so when you talk about, so people actually each season like the, the whole team votes. I mean, I, I, I understand you have like a management layer on top.

Well, they're encouraged too. So everyone, and now it's getting more popular because you know that they, that person gets recognized, they get a gift.

Right.

And so, and what was nice about it is that we also will share. So someone will vote on a team member and they'll write a little comment about why they nominated that person. And then when they're being recognized, we'll share some of those comments. And it just feels really great because it's, you can tell from our team that our team, they're so genuine with their comments, like they're really noticing what that person contributed. So I think the more that we do it, the more people participate in, in the, in nominating somebody. So it has a really nice effect.

I love that when you know, so this is, this is your second company in this space. When you think about like where is your passion? You know, when you, when you Think about your day to day. When you think about the job, where. Where do you have the. The passion? Is it on the operations? Is it on the sales front? Is it the. The product? Like, where. Where is your passion?

My passion is around product and brand. It's building brands. It's, you know, I have a design background. That's how I started in the industry. So for me, brand is everything and the connection that people have to a brand. So I want someone, when they shop at Fleur or wear something from Fleur de Mall, that they're. They're connecting with the brand on an emotional level. It's something that's meaningful for them in their life. That's what gives me the most satisfaction. That's what I care about. I love creating things. I love creating product. I love thinking about marketing. I love everything that is. That connection that a brand has is what drives me.

So this is one of the things I think I'm not good at is brand building. How, how do you do that? From an early stage, like, I'm cur. You know, at the really early stage, like, how. How do you do that?

I think you really have to have a clear point of view. What is. Especially in fashion. Obviously, fashion is a very competitive space that a lot of people want to be in and a lot of people are in. I think it's what is. It's almost like, you know, when I started Floor, I almost took a step go to my. I took a step back and thought, you know, know, what is the personality of this brand? Who is this brand? You can really personify a brand and think about, you know, what the. What the likes and dislikes are. Where would this person be? I mean, I think when you're thinking about clothing and fashion, you can, you can do that pretty easily. Other, you know, I think it's really getting clear on what the brand stands for, what is the brand, and also what's not the brand. So it's, It's. I really believe in a. Not necessarily a singular vision, but I think the best brands really have a very strong point of view that they stick to all the time. Like, you know, Chanel. You know what Chanel looks like, it evolves, but you could pick it out, you know, on a rack of things. And I think that's. That's what makes it so special with.

Your first company and Floor is there. Are the brands significantly different?

I think they're different, but definitely there's a connection because ultimately both brands are a little bit of a reflection of.

That's I'm assuming that's what I'm asking. Yeah.

My DNA as a, as a designer and as a, as a creator. But I think Fleur de Vol, when I started it, I wanted it to be a little more approachable than what I had done in the past and a little more attainable in terms of a price point and a little more fashion. So I think this brand is, it's more, it's a little more fun, it's a little bit more youthful than my previous brand, which was a bit more serious and more, at a higher price point, more luxury, more retail focused than online.

When you think about having this brand and this specific customer that you're speaking with, how do you engage with those customers? Like, do you know, how is it all in your store online? Like, where, where is that engagement happening? And how do you. There's a bunch of questions to me that I have about this because it's. Because so much is based on you, like, do you do that engagement or do you have people on your team? How do you trust people to take the brand and live that? You know, I, that's always been like a big, the amazing brands that, especially when they have a person where the brand is that person. Like, how do you scale that?

Well, I think the. So we're mostly online. That's. We, we do have two retail stores and we're expanding retail. But most of how we communicate is really online through social media, through our, our email marketing, through our website, through performance marketing and plus all the other things we do from a brand marketing perspective. So I think it's really the team, it doesn't all come from me, it really comes from the whole team and they understand we work closely together. To say this feels like floor, this doesn't. But I think we communicate through the imagery that we use, the videos that we make. The way we try to bring in, infuse a lot of content into our emails. For example, we'll maybe talk to a sex expert or we'll do like a cheeky, you know, how to flirt with somebody over DMs. Like, we try to do things that.

Are.

That might make somebody feel like, oh, that's fun or even if I'm never going to do that, I still want to read about it. I try to do things that I would be interested in or would capture my attention and we try to do that through every channel that we're marketing through.

So, and, and when is that like part of your hiring? Like when you're looking for the people to be on your team, is there something that you like? Do you put them through some exercise or something? How do you know? Do you.

We do. For creative roles, absolutely. There's. Yeah, we have tests that we. People do sort of creative tests whether they're. If like, for example, right now we're hiring for a social media team, that person would have to create content as part of a test as part of the interview process that might be creating a TikTok or. And then through that we'll see that person's point of view and if it's aligned with Fleur. And sometimes, you know, it's not perfect, but we're like, well, we can get there with that person with, with the right. Once they get into the brand and understand our aesthetic, they can get there. But definitely with. Same thing with designers. Obviously designers have portfolios. Anyone that's on the creative side, we'll do some sort of test for sure. In the interview process, how long did.

You carry the brand, meaning until you started having people who were doing this? How long was that just you doing it?

Well, I'm still very involved in anything creative. I still approve every email, every social post, which is a little crazy. But I'm very protective of what we put out there because we have a really big email following. We have a big social following. You know, from the beginning, I had someone early on on my team that was. Her and I were very aligned in the way we looked at content and the way we. Her sense of humor because Fleur is a very like cheeky brand. So, you know, you need someone to get into that. It's hard to find people actually that can bring those two things together because we're sexy and provocative, but we're also light hearted about it and fun. So, you know, it's, it's. I think I've always had people on my team, but it's like, how much guidance do they need? That's what changes. Ideally, you'll get to that place where people show you things and you're like, oh my God, that's amazing. It's perfect. Usually there's a lot of iterations and feedback that's always happening.

So that's on the marketing, brand building side. From there, on the design side of the actual lingerie and the clothes. Are you that involved also? Like, are you at that level of involvement, approving everything? Is that still how you operate today?

Yes, it is. But I have a team, so I don't, you know, I, I don't do early days. I was doing all the designing. I Was doing the sketching. I was working directly with the factories, going to Midtown in New York and very hands on, which is, you know, I think. I think it's great to. I think when you have a business, I think it's a great experience to do almost every role in the company to your capacity and learn about what that is. So I've done. I've done a lot. I've done almost every role here at some point. Early days, but no. And I have a design team that they do all the, you know, the sketching, the sourcing. But I'm in every fitting, I approve every style, I approve every sketch.

Wow.

Yeah.

Actually, I interviewed another CEO who said the same thing. They said, I think it's important to do every single job they have, like something with. Anyway, it requires moving trucks and this. And they're like, I did every single job because when I hired people to do the job, I wanted to be able to know what the job actually like, what it entails and people able to have some empathy for them, but also, you know, the management. So when you say that, I think like going to Midtown, like, I can imagine what that, you know, and. But it's important because if that's what is required.

Yeah.

You know, you want to have gone through that yourself.

Yes. Yeah. Really understanding supply chain. Every. Every. Every step in everything in this business.

You've been doing this for over a decade. And then at this point and your. The company has grown quite a bit. And with that also the products have evolved, you know, to some extent. Can you talk a little bit? Maybe just the whole evil, maybe just to give everyone full context, you know, if we don't know the brand, where did you start? How have you evolved that and kind of where did you layer in additional products along the way or lines?

Yeah. So we. So Florida mall. When I started at the end of 2012, we were very much focused on, and still are lingerie at the start of everything that we do. And then clothing that really relates back to lingerie, that is inspired by it. So everything from slip dresses, bustiers, bodysuits. So my, I think sweet spot is where those worlds overlap and how they inspire each other. But since then, you know, we've really evolved to, you know, we have a whole pleasure category. So I think about Fleur as everything to enhance your intimate life. And we're very much inspired by. I'm very much inspired by desire. Desire and intimacy and how that. Which ultimately is about human connection. So to me, that's what I find interesting about what we do. So for example, we, we just launched a vibrator. We launched a toy in February. We already sold out of it, but we're getting more.

Wow. Wow. When we did our first call, you were about to launch. Yes, that and wow. So it went well. It went well.

It went well. It went well. Yeah. We launched that right before Valentine's Day and we sold out in a few weeks. We're getting our second. Actually I think it just replenished. But. And you know that was. We started by testing other, carrying other brands which we still do and we probably will continue to do so. But to understand what was the appetite from our customer for that type of product. I mean I knew, I knew that our customer wanted that from us, but it was a good way for us to test like what price points are working, what's. What styles of toys are people looking for from us. And then it took us probably two years actually to go come to market with our toy because we, it was custom, we designed it. So you know, we had to create a mold, we had to test it. We had to go through different testing different motors. We had one batch that we completely had to throw out because it was actually like you could, there was like this burning smell that was happening and I was like, that's, that's not okay. So we, and then sometimes the packaging takes as long as the product. So we had to, you know, create a box that was beautiful. But also it was really important for me that we didn't use any plastic anywhere. So we used a, basically a paper injected mold for the toy, the tray that the toy sits in. And that cost us more money. It took more time. But it was important for me not to have plastic wherever. We cannot use plastic. I try not to.

You said before your customers, you knew your customers wanted this from you. How did you know that?

Through carrying other brands and got it because we were already selling, we had been selling that type of product for a few years.

Got it. So basically that was your test to know and it wasn't your brand, but you knew at least they wanted a vibrator from you. Then you could go through that process to the expensive and timely process to actually make your own.

Exactly. And you know, there's a lot of restrictions with advertising toys. So you can't just run, you know, where we run a lot of obviously, you know, meta ads and Google Ads and Google especially, it's very strict, very strict about things. So it's, how do we approach that and come up with a clever way of advertising the toy without actually speaking to it or showing it in a very explicit way.

So how'd you do that? That's an interesting challenge.

Yeah. You know, the toy looks like a rose. It looks like a flower. I think I have it here. You know, it looks.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Kind of pretty looking. This is not the final one, but. So we have been testing, doing somewhere someone's holding. Holding it and you don't. You might not know immediately that it's a vibrator. And we won't say that in the ad or we'll run ads where we'll just speak more to the category of pleasure without actually showing anything.

And because I assume with your brand more broadly, do you have this problem generally? Is this a problem that you've had to work around?

Yes, it's something that we're doing.

Does it keep changing or.

Yes, it keeps changing. It keeps changing all the time. And I think with. I think a few years ago when Meta, I think started using more AI to flag things if they thought it was inappropriate in some way. Yeah, that changed things. It's very challenging because it's something that could be. For example, we sell songs. So the back of a song, you know what it looks like.

Right.

It's like a butt shot. Like so. But we need to show that on our site that we can't show that on Google. And we had to actually really downplay that on our site. So what we'd used to a few years ago really have very prominent on our site. We put that sort of. Not as like it won't be on our homepage because we will get flagged. And Google, you know, we can be. And we might still be. Sometimes our website will be flagged as a restricted site. So that means that somebody tries to log on from their bank job. Really you may not be able to. Yeah. Get on our site. So it's, it's. It's a bit annoying. We. We constantly have to think about it.

And the business, you said before is mostly direct to consumer.

Oh yeah, yeah. About probably 85% of our business is online.

Wow. So that's like high. I mean that's, that's like a real. That, that's risk. I mean that, that's like. That's something you're constantly. Because if most of that business is online, you can't get shut down.

Exactly.

Wow. Have you evolved the lines in any other way? You know, so this is a product, physical product, which is really kind of, you know, which is different than. Than the lingerie. Have you have you done anything else to evolve the line?

So many things. But I think more recently we launched a more opening price point part of our collection. Like a little more of an attainable lingerie groups that didn't have before. And I think the reason why I did that, I wanted to do it for a while. But what I realized was that a lot of our customers shopped with us for more of their special occasion lingerie but they weren't buying their everyday bras from us. Even though I felt that we had that and probably we did. If you looked for it, it was there. So I really wanted, I was like, that's not right. Like our customers should be able to come to us for everything she needs, like any moment in her life, we have to cover it. And I think part of that was price point and also design to create something a little more everyday, very wearable, very easy still with our esthetic and point of view, but a little more affordable. So we did that about a year and a half ago and that's been doing really, really well and we keep adding to that.

And so the other thing that you talked about. Well, let me, I want to ask you one question because something when you talk about the brand earlier and how important brand is and everything and then you talk about this new line, how long did it take you? You said you've been wanting to do it for a while. Like how long was that process? Because it does feel like that's a very. Given what I know of your brand, you have to be super careful kind of introducing the everyday because it's such a high end brand with so. Right. I mean I think just from what I understand of it, how long did it take you to make that, to actually make the decision like from the time you said we're going to do it to actually doing it.

Well, it took a long time to develop it. So from we probably years, honestly years. Because I think it's something that we talked about years ago. And then it takes time to develop into a different price point. You have to think about materials and sourcing in a different way. So it took us a very long time. Longer than you would think because lead times for lingerie are longer because if you think about a bra, it's highly technical. It could take, you know, a bra could have 26 different components in it. So it's not like making a T shirt. And the factories we work with, they might take six months production time. Wow. Yeah. Unfortunately some, some people are faster but generally that's, you know, it's It's a long lead time, so to develop something new. It probably took us two years to get that. And everything needs to fit everything. And then we're trying to, you know, we're expanding, sizing. So with bras, one bra might have 40 different sizes that we're making, so we have to fit different sizes. Those all have to be commented on. It's a whole process. It's, it's very, it's, it's a highly technical category.

Wow. You know, you, you. I don't know how much you follow everything that's happening in software, but now at this point with AI and everything, you literally can like write a pro. You can write like the most complex program in like five minutes with not even being technical. This is very AI proof. No one's going to compete with this. I mean, this is the complexity. To do that and do it high quality and well is very real.

Yeah, I know, it's interesting. It'll be interesting to see. I know that AI, there are programs now where you can speak to the design that you want and AI will generate the drawing for you. Whoa. So I know my team is a little like, they don't like the idea of that at all.

So when you think about kind of the. You, you have a. I've told a couple people that I'm interviewing you and they, they've been like, oh my God, that's my favorite brand. You know, my wife said, oh my God, tell her I love this. She bought like a kind of a sweatshirt that had, I don't know, it was very cool. She loved that. Anyway, point is, everyone's like that. That's amazing. So you've built this following and you built this community. How do you nurture it on an ongoing basis? Like is. Because it's, it seems quite large to me. Like, is it all the emails that you talked about and the social media and all the stuff, like one to many. Is. Is that the way to kind of engage that, that community on an ongoing basis?

I think it's really both. It's one too many. But it's also, you know, how we treat our, and speak to our most valued customers. I like to take a little bit more of a luxury approach to how we communicate with our top customers. For example, you know, by sending them, we might send them a birthday gift. We might, we give them that extra like, VIP service. And then we do a lot of events too, which, you know, I've done events all over, but we'll do things in, in New York, we might host A panel and bring together like a dating expert, a sex expert, we throw parties. I just did something in San Francisco with a group of really powerful, amazing women in tech venture and we did a little talk and it was an interview with me and just like a. Just bringing these people together. They were so appreciative. Because I feel like in San Francisco there's not a lot of that happening for women in that way, whereas in New York there's a lot of it. So I think sometimes it's nice we'll go to a different city and feel really, really appreciated and our community loves that. So it's like really I love, and I love doing, hosting dinners, parties. We do so many different types of events and I really enjoy that. They're very fulfilling and I'll meet people. Like we did something in Mexico City last year and I did a little pop up. I hosted a dinner and I met all these incredible people that are now fans and friends of the brand. So that's. I really think about it as like just building these little communities everywhere and.

That what I think is relevant to any company. I actually have been saying this more and more, especially as it relates to the age of AI and everything else. Actually one of the only moats that you can't pay for or AI or is community. Actually it's one of the few moats that the real connections to the, to you, to the brand, to the. Like you can't. If someone raised $500 million to compete with you, they couldn't create authentic community that you've built over a decade. And that's the thing I tell a lot of early stage founders. Like it's not just through your website or your social media. Like you have to be with those people because every person you meet, I assume, I don't know, but I'm assuming every person you meet is gonna go tell five other people, oh my God, I met Jennifer, who's amazing. Like, you know, and, and that, that's, that's. That's real moat. I, I think yes, absolutely.

And I think people know it's. You can feel that it's authentic. And there's something I think behind what we do that resonates because they feel that there's someone and the team behind it that really care and love what they're doing. I think that comes through in everything. I really believe in that.

Is that part of the reason to expand the retail strat? Because retail, I've definitely not been in retail business of any sort. Feels quite difficult, expensive. Like is that Part of the reason for the retail expansion or.

No, definitely. I think retail, retail supports online. I think that we, we have, so we're, we have two stores and now we're opening in Williamsburg. We just signed a lease there, so that'll be great. But we're, you know, we also, we have the benefit of. Because we have an online business, we know where our customers live. So that helps guide us as to where would be the right location for us to open. And I think it allows us to. Yes. Like now that we're going to be in Brooklyn, we have so many customers that live there. So it's going to be great to be like, hey, we're here building community in Brooklyn, doing collaborations with Brooklyn based brands that we love. So I feel like it becomes a hub for, it's not just for shopping but just also to build that community and then people discover the brand that way. Or maybe they wanted to shop online but they didn't know their size and, and they want to come in and try something on. So I, I think it's all, it's one really supports the other. You have to be careful with retail. I mean retail can hurt you if you over expand. So we're pretty thoughtful about it.

Like I've been a lot of three stores in 10 years, right? I mean that's not a lot. No, no. By. I, well that's, I feel like I've had, I've read things again not having been in the space. I feel like I've read things where people go so fast on expansion of retail and, and that actually is the collapse of the, of, of the brand and the company.

It happens, it happens a lot. We want to, we're, we're ramping things up a little faster now. So hopefully we'll open six or six or eight stores over the next two years in addition to what we already have. But yes, that can hurt a company because you know, it's like also it's, it takes a while for a store to ramp up and finding the team training, it's, it's a lot of work, it's a lot of effort. But I, I love retail. I love both sides of the business.

For you personally, as you think about your role at Floor going forward, how do you see it, you know, for the next, I don't know how many years. But you know, you've built this brand, you've built this business pretty impressive in a relatively short period of time. You know, what is that next kind of part for you? Where do you, you're Going to spend your energy.

I, you know, I'm really thinking about our team right now and how to elevate the team and bring the right people into Fleur so that I can focus a little more on the things that I love doing, which are everything around brand. So I want to spend more time on product. I want to spend more time on building community, putting myself out there as a founder, all those areas. I want to be less involved with operations, some parts to that, for example. And I'm not the person that runs operation, but I think there's certain areas that I'm still very involved in that I always want to know. I'm interested in every part of the business, but I would love a little more of my time freed up to focus on what I do best. As I'm sure, like every founder, I was listening to another CEO on a podcast who was saying, what's hard about being a founder is every problem that someone else doesn't want to deal with or can't figure out gets filtered back to you. Every single one in every single department. And I was like, oh, my God, that is so. Yes. And that's why it's so annoying, because you're like, oh, my God, this. You know, like, people will be like, the alarm's going off in the store and nobody knows why. Can you call somebody, you know, like, just random, whatever. Like every day there's just stuff.

Yeah. So what. What do you think? What is that? How does it manifest itself for you kind of going forward? What do you. What do you think that means? Like, do you think you're going to bring in more senior people? From an operations perspective?

Yes. So I'm hiring for a president at the moment. I just brought on a VP of Digital. I think every area, it's having that more operational support and really somebody on the president's side who's going to be more focused on growth. It's kind of like a chief Growth Officer position. Ultimately, that's where we are. We're in a good place, and we're. We have. We're growing. And I want someone that can help us really see the full potential of everything we can be doing right now. And growing.

What do you. What. What is the biggest challenge you've ever faced in the company, and how did you overcome that if you did the biggest challenge?

So probably two years after I started, we pretty much ran out of money. And I have. I have investors, I have, but I haven't raised money since 2019. But this is probably like two years in and fashion is very cash intensive. If you're, even if you're growing, let's say you double your sales, you still have to pay for that product before you're getting paid for that product. So you're always, it's always like, more cash, more cash, more cash. So we had a rough season and we were really tight on cash. And at that time, I was, I had a small team. I was very transparent with my team. I shared everything with them at that time. And I was like, guys.

We'Re, we're.

Not in a good place. You know, things are not good. And I, I, I scared the team because I was scared. And I, I ended up. And it was this moment where I just had to fight and do everything I could do to save the business. So I had to, like. Anyway, I ended up borrowing money from investors with interest and, like, figuring it out. I ended up delaying payroll by two days. And he, it was only two days, but for my team, that was very destabilizing for them. And so I ended up losing from my small team, like, almost 80% of my team. So that moment was the hardest thing I ever went through because first I went through this, this moment of almost running out of money and being desperate to try to figure out how to save the business. And then I lost the people that were like my original team because of them feeling like we weren't stable. And then I was, like, doing everyone's job until I could rehire and figure out rebuild. And I didn't think I was gonna make it. I was working seven days a week till late at night, every night, doing everything, because I was basically essentially without a team. It was the worst moment. It was the worst thing I ever went through, actually.

In your whole career?

Yes. Yes. Because I had fought so hard and worked so hard to get this brand and to launch something. So to feel like it was going to maybe go away, that I wasn't going to be able to save it was the biggest, Was the worst thing I had gone through professionally. Yeah.

Did any of those people come back?

No, but I'm still, like, close with some of those people and in touch. It was also, you know, it was. It anytime some things like that happen, I do feel, you know, it brings other people in that maybe are meant to be there and help you get to that next next level. But, you know, a friend of mine said to me, she was like, I've been there. I've had this, I had this happen to me. Exactly. And I've lost, I lost my team. At the same time, you're going to get through it. You're going to get through it. And I was just like, okay, what's happening today? I'm getting through this. And eventually we got back on track.

But, wow. When. When I'd been. I've been through a couple of moments with. Where I felt the need to be transparent for all sorts of reasons, you know, when something bad was happening and I. And I ended up being transparent and people left, you know, and a lot of people. We had one situation where probably 60% of the company left in a similar kind of situation. And what.

What happened that they. That they.

We. We were basically. We had decided. I decided that we needed to rebuild our. And I told everyone it was gonna take a year to rebuild it. It actually was taking almost two years to rebuild it. And in that process, all the salespeople and the people responsible for the customers, they said, you've been telling. I've been telling my customer this. The product's not coming. What's going on? And essentially, they couldn't make commission. They couldn't do this. So they all. I mean, it was like one after the other after the other after the other. And I remember being very upset and actually angry at those people at that moment in time. And I reflect on it now and I say, if I were in their shoes, I probably would do this. You know, I. I probably would do the same thing. And I. It kind of got me to reef that. That's actually been a major thing for me in my career, I think, is when people used to quit on me. Any company, I held it against them. Like, really, like, especially the early days, I, like, really. I was like, I'm never gonna forget that. And I'm gonna. And then. And I. Then I. Then I got to a point where I tried to save people. I'll give you a bonus. I'll do it. And now it's like, if you want to leave, my view is better, actually, because I don't want to be responsible for you, you know, staying and not really being passionate about it or. Anyway, so I. That's been a. That's probably been one of my biggest maturations as a manager of people is. Is being okay and almost like embracing it and saying, congratulations, you know, I'll be here. If you need help, call me. And no hard feelings. And.

Yeah. And I learned, you know, I think I wanted to be. I want to be transparent with my team, and I am, pretty much. But at the same time, you have to inspire confidence, and you have to be. You have to make the team feel confident about the future, and you can't if you're worried they're going to be worried. Right. They're looking to you to be a leader. So I learned a lot from that. And I used to also take it very personally when people left. And it would fill me with dread when someone's like, can I talk to you?

I'm like, oh, I know exactly.

I want to die. That just, like, there's nothing I dislike more than that. And sometimes, which I won't. I don't do this now. But I'd be like, are you quitting? Like, I'd just be like, are you leaving? Because I. I almost couldn't wait, you know, with that dread of the conversation.

It's like when you get the slack. Can. Can we talk? Can we talk?

You know, it's never anything good. It's never a good thing when someone wants to pull you aside. I wish it was. And now I'm kind of like, okay, all right. Well, I. I try not to take it personally. I always want to understand why. But, yeah, it's just a part of the deal.

If we look at Fleur de Mal in three years, 20, 28, what does it look like?

What does it look like? I'm really excited about international expansion and continuing. I feel like we have a really great brand product message, and I just want more people to experience and love Florida Mall. So to me, it's expanding retail, it's growing in other countries, and I want us to be a massive global brand that people love and appreciate.

Do you think this is going to be your last company ever?

No, I don't think so. I have. I don't think so. I have so many ideas. I have so many different things I could do. I. I have, like, if something. If I were to make a change, I would launch another business. It wouldn't be this business. There would be something completely different, different industry. But no, I'm. I'm like an idea per. I don't know. I have many ideas for things.

Let's talk about this. Actually, I want to transition to your background a little bit. Where does this entrepreneurial spirit come from? Because it's very clear. Like, it is deeply, like, you know, the ideas, the multiple companies you've started, like, where does that come from?

Well, my father was an entrepreneur. My father brought the first espresso machine to Toronto, Canada, from Italy in 1954. So he. My parents were both immigrants, and Toronto at that time, I mean, everyone that I grew up with, like, literally every single person. I knew their parents were immigrants, and it was a certain way of my father. His whole thing was work for yourself, create a business. We're three daughters, and he just wanted. Desperately wanted us to take over the family business. That's all he cared about. He didn't really care if we, you know, he wanted us to do well in school. But ultimately he was like, I'm working for you to have this business. But I was like, I don't want to import restaurant equipment. I want to be in fashion. So I'm an. On my. We're three, so three daughters. And we're all. My sister and I were all entrepreneurs and calls you. Yeah. And my father always said to me growing up and to us, you know, like, why would you ever want to work for somebody? Like, you need to do your own thing. And so I never thought about doing anything else but starting my own. And I knew I wanted to be in fashion for when I was about 8 years old. So in my mind, I was like, I'm going to be a designer. I'm going to start a brand. That's what I would write in my goals, like, journal. And every year, that's. That's all I thought about doing, actually. Um, so it was really instilled in me from a young age.

So this is. This is literally a dream job. I mean, this is.

Yes, it is my dream job, but it's tough. You know, it's like, it's my dream job, but it's still. It's. It takes. It's not, like, easy in a way. It's. It's easy in the sense of what I'm doing feels very clear, but it's full of effort.

Yeah. Yeah. No, but this is what you. I mean, this is like what you wanted, both in terms of the fashion side and being an entrepreneur. You know, you kind of have married those two things together. Is who. Who's been you or have you had a role model or kind of a mentor throughout your career in fashion? Like, do you have a person you. You've leaned on and learned from throughout that period?

I think, you know, from a younger age, definitely my sisters, and they're older than me. And one of my sisters, Janet, she has. She owns 12 or 13 restaurants, and she's. And both of my sisters are both very, like, independent, powerful entrepreneurs. And I think I always, you know, as a young. When I was younger, looked to them and kind of followed them a little bit. So my sisters have been mentors to me. I think you know, there's so many people in the fashion industry that I looked up to growing up that were, you know, like, very famous fashion designers that I always looked up to, like Alexander McQueen or Karl Lagerfeld or Stella McCartney years ago. And I don't know, I feel like there's been a lot of people that have been a good. Have been mentors to me. I have investors that are advisors to me that I can always go to that are very accomplished in the fashion industry. So I have a good. I feel like my one thing is I probably don't tap in enough to my network in that way for support because I have amazing people around me that want. Want to help.

I mean, I guess at this point you're. Now. Are you starting to be a mentor for other people coming up? Because I feel like at this point, that's your role kind of in fashion.

Yeah, definitely. I. I try to think about that more and be available to people. So if, you know, I have people reaching out, can you help me with. Or talk to me about starting a business or. I want to start a lingerie brand. I try to carve out time to. Yeah. To offer advice where I can absolutely.

What. What is it deep down that drives you? Because like you said, you know, I said dream job. So still. Still work is still effort, which I think is true for any founder and any. Any company that's growing. And like, what. What drives you? What. What. What keeps you. I. I always tell people. My answer is always the same, which is my. My drive comes from people telling me I can't do something. Like that is. That's all I need. You know, if someone says, you can't do this, I'll probably work for 10 years just to prove one person wrong. It's like a very weird. I don't know why. I don't know where it comes from. I don't know. But that's like my. My drive, you know, Where. Where does your. Where does your drive come from to get through the period when you have no money to get like, you know, where does that come from?

Well, I think. I don't know. I think that a couple different things, because there's. One is the creative drive, which I think is something. The satisfaction of having an idea and creating something and putting it out in the world. Having. Having it come to fruition. Like, you have an idea and then you sketch it, and then you make something, and then all of a sudden, like, people are wearing it. That's a very satisfying thing. That's. That's Just it gives me satisfaction to do that. Even like designing. I don't have it here, but like, even sometimes, like we designed an amazing box for something, like a heart shaped box. Like it's, it's like a dumb thing. But that kind of thing weirdly gives me a lot of satisfaction because it's, I don't know, it's like a physical thing that you created that's out there in the world. Um, so there's that, I think the drive I, I feel that I, I don't know where it comes from actually, to be honest. I, I felt a certain amount of confidence when I was younger around starting something and I don't know. And it's probably like the naivete that you need to start something where you don't really know how like hard it's gonna be and you're like, I'm gonna do this is gonna be amazing. It's gonna be so successful. That's what I thought. I thought, oh, I'm gonna start this brand. It's gonna be like incredible. It's going to be so big in three years and, and it took a lot longer. But I also realized that to build something meaningful, it takes time and that's okay. So I don't know, the drive, I, I'm, I'm very, you know, I'm competitive. I, I want, I want to win. I want to, I want to build something that, that is bigger. I don't want to have like a little niche business. So that drives me to keep, to keep growing. Growth is always like my nemesis. It's like I'm always thinking about that.

What, what does your dad think? Or what did he, you know, about your success?

Unfortunately, he passed away in 2000. Yeah, no, so he didn't get to see me as a professional. I was still in. More. I was, Yeah, I was still in school when he passed away.

Oh, wow. Wow.

But, you know, I think he'd be proud of me.

I'm sure, I'm sure. Well, that. So, you know, it's so interesting when you say that, like you just, you never thought of doing like, of doing anything but starting a business like, that's a mate. That's such an amazing. It's so deeply embedded, you know, I think I've interviewed a number of people who are first generation, whose parents were both immigrants. And so many actually have this exact. It's been one of the most common for the immigrants, for the first generation people. I've interviewed founders. It's like the immigrant mentality that they saw firsthand and I think that's. There's some. I mean, that's. For me, my parents are. My dad's from Greece, my mom's from Israel. They came here. My dad always had his own businesses, and it was that kind of thing. Like, why would. Like, why wouldn't I do this? You know? And. And so it's. It's. It's amazing how deep that goes.

Yes. Yeah. It's ingrained. It's in there, and it's hard. It's. Yeah. I mean, I could never imagine my father would have given up on something. Yeah, he would not have. You know, he'd be like, I'm. I'm going. You know, I'm. I mean, of course things happen. But he was such a fighter in that way.

Yeah. Okay, last question. Knowing everything, you know, today through your multiple companies, the successes, the failures, what is the one piece of advice that you would go back to the very beginning of your career? And what. What would you tell yourself?

You know, it's funny because when you said, well, you're kind of doing your dream job, and you brought it all together, and isn't that amazing? I think it's to try to appreciate that and try to enjoy those moments and don't feel so. I think I spent so many years just working and hustling and maybe sometimes not being happy, even though here I was doing this thing I've always wanted to do. Why was I not feeling satisfied with that? And I think that's something I would want to go back and tell myself. Like, those moments, even though they were difficult, they were great. And it's. It's really a shift. It's your attitude. It's how you wake up and want to approach the day. You could go into your day and make it the best day or the worst day. It's really. It's all in your head. So it's how I think about it. Um, so I. I wish I could have told myself that earlier, not to say that I haven't enjoyed all of it, but, you know, there's times that I've been less happy.

I. A number of people have said something along similar lines where they said, kind of enjoy the journey and enjoy the process, because actually, the journey is where the, you know, the hard days and the hard things and the. Is. Is where you get a lot of the most memorable experiences or most. Right.

I mean, yes, it's like working out. You know, I changed the way I think about working out many years ago where before. And a lot of people do this you say if I go work out, I'm going to reward myself with I don't know, whatever, a muffin or something or whatever you're going to do. And so it's not about the workout, it's about the reward after the workout. Whereas taking pleasure and actually like the workout, which I actually do, I know it's tough, but I enjoy it when I'm in it. It changes everything because you're not just like trying to, oh my God, my thing froze. You're not just trying to get through something. You're in the moment.

That's a good analogy. That's, that's a good. Because you are actually, when you're thinking about building a business, you're building a lot of muscles. You're built, you are, you are actually working. You know, I, I talked to someone the other day who was a multi time CEO and he just came CEO again and he said, I don't, I had to rework on my CEO muscles, you know, and, and it's kind of true in this case of like, you know, the, the muscles you gain. It's working out, but it can be fun problem solving and dealing. But you have to have a very different kind of viewpoint, you know, on it.

Exactly. And it's, you know, I used to, I mean, I struggle with this now, but I would say, oh, I don't like the HR part of like, I don't want to deal with HR things. Like, I just, I don't like that. And I was speaking to a coach that I work with sometimes and she said HR is people. Like people. That's your company. Guess what? Like that's not, that's, that's never going to go away. And I was like, yeah, oh, you're right, you're right. My, I can't just try to like put this aside. Like you deal with that. I don't, it is, it is a part of the deal, so might as well try to enjoy it.

If people want to get in touch with you, what is the best channel to do that?

Probably Instagram or Instagram. Instagram or LinkedIn? Instagram. I'm @ Jennifer Zuccharini.

Awesome, Jennifer, thank you for doing this with me. I've learned a lot in the process of preparing for this and interviewing you. And you have a rabid following. From what I can tell people, people love the brand and I'm going to get a lot of new people listening to this podcast, I think because of this interview. So thank you so much for doing this and I really, really appreciate I think I appreciate how open you've been and just sharing the story and your lesson. So thank you very much.

Thank you. Such a pleasure. I loved speaking with you, David, so thank you for having me on.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, everyone, I hope you enjoyed. If you did, please share this with your networks and we'll see you for the next episode of Not Another CEO Podcast. That's a wrap for this week's episode of Not Another CEO Podcast. Thanks for joining. For show notes and more, please Visit not another CEOPodcast.com we'll see you next week.