859: BiggerNews: Fed Announces Rate Cuts, Jobs Grow, and Boomers Buy Up Housing

This is the BiggerPockets podcast show, 8:59. What's going on, everyone? It's David Green, your host of the BiggerPockets real estate podcast, joined today by my friends Rob Avasolo, James Dainard and Kathy Fettke.

That's right. We have a special show for you today. We are bringing you a bigger news show. We're changing it up today. We couldn't do this without our two friends from their Bigger Pocket sister podcast on the Market Podcast to help us out today. So welcome Kathy and James. How you guys doing today?

Great. So happy to be here with you guys.

I am always happy to hang out with you guys on the, on the Big.

Yeah, we're happy to have you.

In today's show, we're going to be bringing you four recent news articles discussing things that are impacting the housing market and the economy at large. We're going to be talking about the potential Fed interest rate cuts of 2024, the November jobs report, new legislation to take hedge funds out of the real estate game, and the impact of baby boomers on the housing market.

This is a common show format that our friends from on the Market do. So please go check out their podcast after you're done listening to this one.

All right, let's get into this. Cathy, let's start with you. What have you got?

Oh, man. Big, big news. Big news. And perfect, since we're doing bigger news. This article is from Business Insider. This is from a week or two ago. It was before the Fed met for the FOMC meeting. And the topic is the Fed will likely cut interest rates four times next year as the economy remains resilient. So if you understand the Fed, this is a confusing headline. First of all, it's wrong because just a week later when the Fed met and they at the FOMC meeting to decide if they would raise rates or not raise rates or what they were gonna do next year and the years following, they did, as you know, pause. So we didn't get another rate hike. But what they did say is they'll probably reduce rates three times next year in 2024 by a quarter percent. So they came out saying 3. The market was thinking 4. There have been articles saying they think it's going to be six. So the market has been too excited about the Fed pausing and saying that they're going to maybe cut rates next year. So the market kind of got ahead of itself. And by that I mean the bond market, the stock market, really thinking maybe there's going to be a recession in 2024 and then they're just going to dump rates back to where they were. According to, you know, what we heard last week. It's just not the case. Maybe by 2025, 2026, we'll get down to, I don't know, a Fed fund rate of 2, 2 and a half percent. Right now it's twice that or more than twice that at five and a quarter to five and a half percent. Again for the, I mean maybe, maybe a few years ago people didn't really know what the Federal Reserve is. Everybody knows today, everybody's so affected by it. But people have been second guessing the Fed for a couple of years now and have been pretty wrong. They were wrong about how quickly the Fed would raise rates and I think now wrong about how quickly they might lower them. I think they're gonna do what they said and kind of hold steady. And I think James is gonna explain that when he talks about the jobs report in a minute. But what are you guys thoughts on this?

I think that by the end of the episode today they'll, they'll, will, they'll change it to cutting it to two times instead of four. So you never know. You never know. They're always kind of switching them back and forth. But I mean, hey, I'll take any cuts at this point.

You know, it is a concern over a three week. I feel like they just like emotionally messing with us because you know the articles, what, two, two and a half weeks ago or up to six rate cuts, then it's four, now we're at three. And at this point right now you just kind of have to really, you need to pay attention to what they're saying, but you really want to look at what's actually going on around you. When they were saying inflation wasn't that bad, but we could all feel it and then it skyrocketed or when at the beginning of the rate increases, I think he said he was going to increase it to a federal funds rate of no higher than three and a half to four and then it shot right past there. I take what they say with a grain of salt. I it in as I'm looking at deals going forward into the market, I'm just trying to be more pessimistic. And then if they do cut rates, it's all upside from there.

One of the issues that I have with a lot of these articles is they'll say what Cathie just reported and then you look deeper and you realize the Fed never said that this was some Projection from the Universal bank of Switzerland or Barclays or something like that. And they're like, well, based on what we think that the Fed meant, we. When they said this thing, that was also somewhat esoteric and hard to understand. We predict six rate cuts to happen. I mean, Kathy, what are your thoughts on how sometimes it feels like we're getting Fed news just to have news?

No, I mean, that's exactly it. The Federal Reserve is a banking system, basically quasi government agency. But you've got all these Fed presidents who get together and vote on where they're going to take the economy. When they raise rates, their intention is to slow it down. When they reduce rates, their intention is to basically fire up the economy. So.

People, everybody, the world listens to everything that Jerome Powell says or any of the Fed presidents when they go around to speak. And they're speaking a lot. And it's like this interpretation game, like, what did they mean by that? What did that word mean? Are they bullish? Are they dovish? And there's a lot of guessing going on. And I think that's where people have just kind of been wrong. Like they are saying what they're going to do, and they've been pretty clear about that. I mean, yes, they've been wrong. They were super wrong about inflation. They thought, and continue to, you know, they thought that if you print lots of money and expand the money supply and make rates 0% and easy to get money, that that wouldn't create inflation. I think anybody here and anybody listening would say, no, that probably would create inflation. And it did. So they have definitely been wrong. And I think they realized it, panicked, freaked out, raised rates quickly, because they are. They have a dual mandate. They've got to keep inflation low and their target's 2%. But they also have to create job growth. And that's kind of hard to do both, because if you have too strong a job growth, that can create inflation. If you don't have job growth, that can create deflation. So they're walking this, you know, fine line and this tightrope. Shockingly, you guys, shockingly, it's looking like they might achieve a soft landing. Like they've been flying this plane through a storm and they may just get it right, because I think they're just as surprised to anybody at how robust the job market has been. It just won't slow down. And that's what's caused so much confusion, is there was an expectation that when you hike rates from 0 to 5% and throw the market across curveball that the result would be fewer jobs. So I would say that kind of leads us to James and your article, what in the world's going on? What's going on with the job market that has had the Fed raise rates and now pause.

So the November jobs report. And I always feel a little bit weird when I report on this because secretly I know that the Fed is looking to cool down the economy to get us back to normal rates and get us more into a normal setting. And every time this job report comes out, like today in November, the New York Times reported the U.S. job continues to be robust. And what the article talks about, the unemployment rate dropped from 3.9 to 3.7. So there's less people unemployed. And the employers added 199,000 jobs, which was higher than expected last month. In October, they added 169,000 jobs. And so what the articles is really referencing is we've added more jobs than last month and it looks like it's improving. But the one thing about this article is I'm not really buying the headline. You know, US Job growth continues to be robust. Like it's, it's coming right back. The one really interesting stat is manufacturing. There's a lot of strikes going on. That was 30,000 jobs of the 199. And so really it was on pace with, with September and October. And this is still down from 262,000 jobs that were added in September. And so, you know, it is showing that it is cooling down, which is what we're really looking for is to get into a more normal market. As we know as employers, the cost of labor is incredibly high. And in. It's hard to hire people. It's hard to run your business. It creates more inflation. The more you have to hire people and the more you have to pay them, the more you have to charge as investors, as the more, the more cost of labor that goes into our new constructions are flipped. That means pricing has to go up for it to make sense. And we really do need this labor market to cool down. And it's something that I really pay attention to because no matter what's going on in those articles that they're predicting, six cuts, four cuts, three cuts, whatever it is, we know the logic is we have to cool things down. And it's something I pay attention to every month because we want to see that trend coming down. And I feel like sometimes when it gets reported, they kind of jump around a lot like, oh, it's coming back or it's slipping down. The really Good sign is the average monthly gains over the past 12 months were 312,000. So we are making impact in slowing down the, the job market. And that's what we need to see to get some of these rate reliefs and to get the Fed to kind of back off their aggressive plan.

I always read articles like this and I'm always like, where are all these new jobs coming from and what happened to all the old jobs? At some point, like, do you just. Can you infinitely, like, create new jobs? Are there always. And then it's like, it seems like the big problem right now is filling those jobs as well. Like everyone that I talk to in the labor force, in fast food, honestly, the people I get hit the hardest are contractors for me, can never find good workers. And I wonder if that's just. If that's mostly a result of the fact that nobody post pandemic really wants to get paid the same rates that they were before. So it's always interesting kind of taking the roller coaster here and reading these reports quarter to quarter because it always seems like there's always something that's like, I don't know, getting a little, kind of like there's always a new story as to what the problem is with the job market. So right now kind of seems like hiring people at current, at the rates that we were hiring people at 2022 is not currently working for the majority of Americans.

What do you guys think about the information? Do we think that this is going to trigger the Fed to make any changes in their policy?

I think they just stated they're going to do and they had seen that report and.

They paused in December and didn't raise rates and they said they're actually going to reduce three times next year. I think they've already responded. From what I read from the report, it sounds like a lot of those jobs were in health care and a lot of those jobs were new government jobs. So that's actually not too surprising considering that our current administration is.

You know, there's, there's a deficit spending right now. And so what we're, we're seeing is baby boomers are aging. And it kind of makes sense. It's a huge, huge generation and they're going to need health care. So this is kind of expected. That's why a lot of people have been investing in, you know, doctor's offices so forth, and it's health. I like to invest in cities that have a lot of hospitals nearby or, you know, having Airbnbs near hospitals because remember, this is a huge generation getting older, wanting to live forever and they're going to want more health care.

Yeah. Now, as long as the labor market is staying strong, that's good news for those that already own real estate because the value of your property is less likely to decrease. And even more importantly, your tenants are more likely to be able to pay those rent payments. A lot of the time we just assume that rent will be coming in whenever we buy a property. But in times of economic problems or even depressions and people don't pay their rents and you still gotta make that payment to the bank. So as long as the labor market is going strong and the economy is doing well, we are more likely to see tenants making payments, which is a good sign for the near future. Now, so far we've heard about the macro economy, we talked about the labor market and potential Fed rate cuts in quarter two of 2024. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back with some housing market headlines.

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Now that we've spoken about the economy, let's discuss the housing market. David, I believe you have the first article here.

Yes, I do, and I was kind of happy to hear about this. So basically there is new legislation right now being proposed to take Wall street out of the housing market, which I am not mad about. So basically the legislation is saying that they don't want corporations to be buying properties anymore because they recognize that they're taking a lot of the housing inventory off of the market where normal people who want to live in a house would live. And this is being proposed by Democrats, which makes sense because they're looking out for the little guy here. And their thoughts are the housing is expensive because there is too much demand and not enough supply. Why is there not enough supply? Because these big hedge funds are buying all the property. So if we can stop that, it would force more inventory back onto the market, which would theoretically make prices go down and hopefully rents go down and we could make housing more affordable. Now the proposed legislation says that these hedge funds would have 10 years to liquidate their holdings and if they don't, they'll have significant fines and taxes levied on them. And they want to take those taxes, of course, and put them towards low down payments for people that can't afford homes. But what I didn't like about the article was that it didn't define exactly what hedge funds were. They're calling it like a hedge fund act, but really it says corporations, which you or I or other bigger pockets listeners could all be considered corporations if that's how we file the taxes. So my concern was that this could move into a slippery slope where they say everybody can have one house and one house only or something like that. Or you can only own it in an llc. You can't own it in an S Corp or a C Corp, or maybe LLCs would still be considered corporations under this legislation. So now everybody owns a house in their own name, which of course opens people up to lawsuits. The bill is not expected to pass. There's a, there's a split Congress basically right now. They don't think that they'll get enough votes to get this thing to pass. But the fact that it is being brought up could signal potential relief for real estate investors who are tired of competing with huge hedge funds that can raise money cheaper than a normal person can and can play the long game. Hedge funds can buy a property and lose money on it for 20 or 30 years because they've got so much of it, whereas the normal person who's just trying to get ahead really can't take that kind of a loss.

So I actually, they didn't specifically define it from like a dollar amount or like a company amount in terms of how many employees they have, but they did say that it was corpor partnerships or real estate investment funds that manage funds pulled from investors. So it sounds like to me it's any REIT or any kind of 506c fund or anything in that wheelhouse, which if that's the case, seems a little bit alarming that I, I think it kind of seemed by the end of the article that it, one of the quotes was along the lines that this is sort of like the first time that they're putting it out there and they're trying to make a statement to hopefully make a little bit of progress towards it. But one of the things that I found very interesting about this entire thing is that the, they, they want people who own more than 75 family homes to pay an annual fee of $10,000 per home that would go towards a fund that would assist with down payment assistance and everything like that. But I'm just like $10,000 per home. That's like, I feel like it clearly wasn't written by real estate investors because like, single family homes usually don't make nearly any of that amount in, on like in a year.

Oh my gosh. You know, my thoughts on this is, first of all, you know, hedge funds, Wall street, they own such a tiny percentage of single family rentals. It's like 3 to 5%. The 95% of people who, who own single family rentals are mom and pops. People who listen to the show, people who are just trying to create a future for themselves and have a retirement plan and, and not be dependent on the government for, you know, for their old age. They'll be able to take care of themselves. So I get frustrated when I hear this. Now. I don't think this legislation would attack those mom and pops, but I do, I will. Full disclosure, I'm a fund manager. We have a single family rental fund. This would potentially affect me and I'm not really giving my opinion based on that. I just, I just think it's misinformation is the best way to say it. It's such a tiny percentage of single family rentals out there and there's a need for them. Not everybody can buy a home right now. It's 45% more expensive to own a home than to rent one right now. I think, you know, it depends on where you are, but there's a lot of people who say, hey, I just want to rent right now. I'm not going to pay more for the same house. Right? So why is it such a terrible thing that, you know, to provide housing for people? So I don't like this, but I do think there's a different way to go about it. And man, if I could just talk to a legislator and, or come up with some way. Like I do get frustrated when my friends are trying to buy their first home and they get outbid by a hedge fund. I always think priority should go to the homeowner. Somehow I know California tried to pass something like this where, you know, for a 30 day period, it had to be a homeowner who buys it, not a, not a fund, something like that. At the acquisition side, I saw my friends get bid out, bid out, bid out. They could not compete with an all cash hedge fund offer. You know, so, or maybe, you know, like some other countries, they charge more higher taxes for investors. So there might be another way to go about it. But yeah, it just, it needs to be thought through a little bit better.

Part of the way that it was framed was they brought up micro environments, like little ecosystems where hedge funds went in there and bought a ton of the properties. Like they mentioned that one neighborhood in east Charlotte in 2021 and 2022, over half of the homes were bought by hedge funds. Right. So when you hear that, you're like, we have to do something to stop this right now. It's going to be terrible. But if you've been paying attention, these funds typically buy in areas with very strong price to rent ratios. They're usually lower income housing where they're going to get some form of cash flow for what they're doing there. And my concern was like, I wouldn't be personally upset if we stopped BlackRock for buying more properties. I don't like them going in and swooping it all up.

Right.

I don't want that to become a slippery slope where it turns into nobody can own more than two homes or something like that because then you're just going to have a lot of houses sitting vacant or they sell for dirt cheap prices. Like to someone who doesn't know how to manage it and the house has all fallen to disrepair, the values come down, the property taxes come down, neighborhoods fall apart. You do need somebody owning the homes that are going to take care of them.

Them.

Yeah. I don't buy this article as much. I feel like this is an election season.

Kind of, you know, we're going into the next election season which is typically going to, you know, improve some things in the economy, hopefully help us with some rates. But it's kind of a finger pointing thing right now. There's very low inventory, people can't get housing, cost of money's high. And I do feel like it's kind of a scapegoat to start pointing their fingers at the hedge fund saying well, we're going to stop this so it will bring more inventory to the market. But like Kathy said, they own 3% of the houses. That is not going to move the needle that much. And I feel like it's just more of a finger pointing thing. And for even us as investors.

There was a large hedge fund that bought what, three or four thousand homes in the Pacific Northwest. And I remember them coming into the market and we feel like we're very active investors and we were concerned for a minute and then we looked at what they were buying and from an investor standpoint we wanted nothing to do with what they were buying, where you're buying, at what return, what rate, what product. It was not in most of our buy boxes. The sad thing about the hedge funds is they're really competing against the first time homebuyers, not the other investors.

That FHA 3.5% down buyer that's looking for a nice four bedroom, three bath house in a community. That's what they're going after. As far as an investor goes, I don't think they really move the needle much for us.

If anything, we just sold them a lot of houses and it was a great revenue center for us. But you know, them being a little bit restricting in certain areas. I do feel like that is a good idea because I have heard in the background in seeing some smaller hedge funds kind of control pricing in neighborhoods to increase their asset values and they buy higher and higher in certain neighborhoods just to increase their portfolio values. And so some restrictions would be good because we don't want the market getting artificially moved around. Because when these hedge funds come in in waves, they can move, move, move the needle and it can really affect the small people, not the big guys.

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Rob, you've got the last article of the day. Why don't you go ahead and bring the boom?

That's right. Okay, so this article is called Baby Boomers are Winning the Housing Market Again with All Cash Purchases. Basically the oldens are buying. All right, that is the. Too long. Didn't read the. The older generation, they've got lots of equity, lots of wealth that they've built out that they've built up over the year. And it was actually a pretty staggering number. I felt. I, I was really surprised to read that the baby boomer generation have about a $75 trillion nest egg. 75 trillion with a T. That is a lot of friggin money. And so during the pandemic, they actually helped stimulate the economy, the economy quite a bit with their spending. And now as we move into 2023, 2024, a lot of them are going from spending a lot to actually buying houses. And they are actually buying houses really at an alarming rate in all cash. They are basically the biggest, biggest cash buyer of all the other demographics. And one of the reasons that they kind of pointed to were some of the more obvious reasons like because they're older, they've had more time to build wealth through their 401ks, they've had more time to own their homes. And because they have owned their homes for so much long, so much longer than pretty much the rest of the population, they've built a ton of equity that they've been able to use to get into new properties. But one of the things that I wanted to point out about this in this specific article was the reason that they're kind of succeeding right now is they are able to avoid all of the high interest mortgage rates right now and they're buying cash. And overall, 34.1% of of U.S. home purchases in September were made in cash. That's up about 5% from 2014. And among young boomers 58 to 67, the number, the number making all cash home purchases in 2023 is 32%. And among older boomers, that that stat actually changes to 51%, up from about 32%. So a lot of, a lot of them seem to be coming out of the woodwork, I guess, buying in all cash. But it's kind of making this a little bit more competitive for millennials and for people wanting to break into the market because they're basically competing against these, these all cash offers that most of the time when you hear about this in the articles and stuff like that, you hear that these all cash offers are coming from like these hedge funds and everything like that. But at this current time in the economy, these all cash offers are seemingly coming from mostly baby boomers. Yeah.

And we've seen this a lot in the last 60 days in the Pacific Northwest. And it's actually very interesting what's going on right now. And I think there's a lot more cash on single family houses because a baby boomers are transitioning out. But I also think multifamily investors are transitioning out and getting away from multifamily and buying single family and they're buying new construction single families. What I'm seeing quite a bit, I think the reason being is what we've seen in a lot of these metro cities is the new construction product dipped like townhomes, tight development product that came down the quickest with the interest rate. We saw a 15, 20% shock on some of that product to where some of the stuff is almost at replacement costs. They're being sold for 450 to $500 a foot and it costs 380 to build it. And so there's more value there. And what we haven't seen the inventory loosen up as much in the multifamily space. So what I feel like is happening right now, we've seen five 1031 exchanges on our townhome sites in the last 60 days. Some investors are buying two to three at a time inside these sites because they're buying they have better value than the multifamily. Their insurance costs are lower because they're built to newer codes. So they don't have to get that same insurance premium as an older multifamily. And it's really good for the short term and the midterm rental space versus multifamily too. So you can artificially improve your income through short term rentals. And I feel like this is going to be the trend for new construction going forward because people are just reloading their money in. They're getting better value, they're getting better tenants, they have better income. And that's why we're seeing this surge in cash purchases. Because outside of that, in our normal single family property, four bed, three bath, 20 years old, 30 years old, that is still going to a finance person, but the newer products actually trading a little bit more in cash.

So I'm going to be the voice of the boomer. I'm a cusp, I'm a Gen X boomer, sort of in between there somewhere. And I will say for all you young people listening and hating on the boomers for having such enormous wealth, I just want you to fast forward 30 years to when you're going to be old. And hopefully in 30 years you've done really well. You've worked hard, you've invested, you've saved your money and now you can buy investment properties with cash. So just think of it from that perspective. Boomers, many of them.

Had to work their way up and they've done it for many years. And here they are, you know, they bought low and many are sitting on a ridiculous amount of equity. My point is just that there it is astounding how much wealth the baby boomers have. They've gone through. You know, think of the last 30 years. There have been recessions, there's been massive recession recessions. Many of them got wiped out and it was just maybe 10, 15 years ago that the headlines were baby boomers aren't going to be able to retire. So a lot of this really just happened over the last 15 years with the market, you know, going up like crazy, both the stock market and the housing market. So like I said, with the way that the government loves money and both parties, I'm not picking on a party. All governments love money. And now they can print, they've gotten used to printing. I don't think this is the end of inflation. So get in know that in 20, 30 years you're going to be in the same position that that's my thoughts on it.

Okay, let me, let me ask a question here, a follow up question for the group because y' all might have the answer to this more than I do. But you know, I always tell people that back back in the day housing prices were less and it's all relative to the inflation that you face kind of as you've, as you've, you know, as we've gone through the ages or whatever. However, I think that the main argument and why millennials are typically mad is that wages have not increased, they've not stayed abreast with inflation and with the cost of rising housing prices and everything like that. So buying back in the day was not easier, just a little bit more obtainable with the kind of like the average daily rate or average daily wage, if you will.

You know, I don't remember it ever being easy, you know, and I'm born and raised in California, so it's always been expensive. But even when my dad bought his house for $99,000 in the most expensive neighborhood in Californ and Atherton, that was considered very unaffordable. So it's not the baby boomer problem. It's just that they're old. And what the problem is is this addiction to money creation, which in the 70s was really frowned upon. Whenever the government printed money, it was headline news and like, oh, they better stop now. It's just become normal. And because it's become normal, we're going to see more inflation. And you can blame the people who bought things that inflate, or you can just be one of them, because I assure you, in 20 years, you'll be in the same position. It's always been hard.

I don't actually think anyone is mad at boomers. I think people are mad at the attitude of, like, hey, yeah, you can do it, too. But now this generation, especially millennials, like, one of the things that this article made note of is that the reason boomers are pretty much ahead and, like, they're less weighed down by debt, like you were talking about, Kathy, they've had more time to build up their wealth, and they don't have the burden of debt like student loans. And that is a big problem that millennials have right now. That is it's one of the biggest groups that have student loans. And I think that seems to be the big point of resentment for millennials is they pay a lot of money in student loans, thus they can't afford houses. And I don't know, there's maybe some, like, they've got to find they got to play the victim a little bit. But I don't know if it's always apples to apples.

Yeah, I think there's some encouragement that comes out of this article because, like Kathy said, when you're the boomer of whatever that's going to be called at the point where when millennials, that's. Isn't that a funny idea that we're going to be referring to millennials?

We will be boomers. Yeah, yeah. We'll be boomers in about 20.

That's exactly right. But like when you give yourself 30 years of your asset growing and inflation diminishing the currency and you becoming wealthy and building skills and working and saving money and all the things that boomers have done, you too will be the person, person who's in the position to be able to buy houses with cash. So let's focus on that and making moves today that will put us in the position so that you don't have boomer regret. You don't want to be the boomer who's at the high school reunion party, who has nothing to say for their time because they never bought assets and they found excuses not to take action. So, Rob, you have something?

Listen, all I know. All I know is that if Al Bundy could be a shoe salesman and support a family of three, then I should be able to today in 2023 as well.

That is true. I've said this before. In the 70s, my dad sat us down and said, I'm very concerned. This is the last time that it will be possible for one person to work and support a family. And it was because of the money printing. It's like when you expand the money supply without expanding the goods, that creates inflation. So the more that we ask for things for free from the government, the more inflation we get and the bigger the problem. So it's really important that people be educated and understand what the real issue is. It's not the people who rode the inflation wave and made money. It's. It's how that is happening and how can we stop that? How can we stop the spending?

Your dad sounds like a smart man. That's kind of crazy. They saw the writing on the wall in the 70s.

Then, yeah, I opened the book Pillars of Wealth, talking about how we think that we're sitting on some stairs and if we choose not to work hard and save that, we just don't go up. But you're actually standing on an escalator that's going down. That's. That's what inflation does. And if you're not making progress, you're actually falling behind. You're becoming more poor by making less money while everything else becomes more expensive. Which is why we're so glad that you're here with us now, keeping abreast of what's going on in the news, the current trends and what you can do to get ahead financially and build your wealth, specifically through real estate, so that you could be running up that down escalator and getting stronger and further ahead while everybody else falls behind. Thanks so much everybody for joining me today and bringing your insight and knowledge into these articles and interpreting them for our audience. Really appreciate all of you. If you would like more information on any of the hosts from today's show, you can do so by finding it in the show notes and let me know in the comments below. What was your dream job when you were first thinking about being a grown up and working? And what do you think that my shoe size is? We're going to use Rob's Al Bundy reference here and see if you were going to sell me shoes, what size would you bring? This is David Green for Rob Peggy Abasolo signing off Love in the Marriage.

Love in the Marriage.

Foreign.

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