Enriching our lives and work with the power of storytelling | Kalle Ryan

The future is how. Have you asked yourself today, what's next for me? You're not alone. We've all felt that way at some point. My name is Frederik Veert, and for years I've helped the brightest minds at Google and Stanford and people around the world shape their futures. Now I want to help you to do the same. Because the future isn't just something that happens. It's something you can create. Starting right now. From within. Instead of waiting to see what happens next, let's explore how you can make it happen. Each episode dives into one key area like sleep, nutrition, relationships, creativity, storytelling, mindfulness, beauty, movement, or purpose, and brings you real stories and practical tools you can use to shape a better future for yourself. So what's one step you can take today to create what's next? Let's dive in and explore how to build a better tomorrow, starting right now. Welcome friends. Welcome to The Future Is How, where we help you to create your better tomorrow. I'm your host, Frederik Pferdt, and today we're exploring the art of storytelling. These aren't just tools for artists. They're powerful ways to shape our future. Both personally and in the work we do every day. And I'm super excited to welcome Kalle Ryan to the show. Kalle is a great friend, creative writer, poet, and a former colleague from Google, where he led communications and helped craft narratives that really inspired and connected teams across the organization. Kalle has a gift for weaving stories that not only entertain but really spark action. Making him a master of words. Kalle, it's so great to have you here.

It's great to be here, Fredrik, and that's a wonderfully generous and lyrical introduction. I will try and live up to that, but thank you. Master of words. Maybe I should— I have a t-shirt that says poet, but maybe I should put master of words. That sounds like a great title, but thanks for having me. It's great to talk creativity. It's great to talk storytelling, and generally it's just always great to talk to you.

Thanks so much. Yes. So before we dive into our conversation, I always like to ask our guests to share their future bio. How do you see yourself in the future? So can you share a little bit about your future vision for yourself?

Okay, so being somebody who's creative and enjoys sort of writing and storytelling and those kind of tasks, you will not be surprised to hear that I took this as a creative prompt and wrote, I mean, it's half a page bio, but it's sort of a mix of silly and a mix of fun and a mix of serious and a mix of really visualizing and manifesting the future, but also maybe having a bit of fun with it. So see where we go and see where we find the truths and see where we find the ambitions as well. Okay. Award-winning writer and creative thought leader Cal O'Reilly believes creativity is the single most important skill in the world. His mission: to inspire 1 million people to unlock their creative potential. This mission has seen him write bestselling books like The Silly Handbook of Serious Creativity and the award-winning ebook The One Habit of Highly Ineffective People. He's also delivered keynotes and led creative workshops for every major brand you can think of. Yes, even that one. And his recent TED Talk, "Putting the Fun Back into Functional," was the surprise winner of the coveted Turner Prize for Art, but it also secured him the prestigious Dad Joke of the Year Award. His children think it is not cool. He's also unexpectedly become one of the most popular Werner Herzog impersonators on social media and other stuff that will be invented in 5 years' time from now. Don't even think about doubting my impressions capabilities, or you will plummet into the abyss of your own own lack of creative curiosity, you should seek out Calle Ryan at poetic.ie, and he will ignite the ecstatic truth of ecstasy within you once more. Calle's philosophy for both life and work is refreshingly simple and has been his guiding star. That philosophy is: get creative, make a difference, have fun. And this mindset has opened doors to rooms full of decision-makers, artists, and dreamers that he once admired as a young man. Sometimes they agree with him, sometimes they don't, but mostly they admire his t-shirts. He has very cool t-shirts. And in the spirit of sparking new ideas, Kalle urges you to make the choice to do something creative right now. Do it. Your future depends on it. Actually, his creative mission depends on it too. Actually, you are quite literally one in a million. But most of all, Kalle is grateful. Grateful to live a creative life and for the continued opportunity to share his creative superpowers with others and to ignite that same creative spark within them. And he is immensely thankful for the flexibility all of this affords him to live a richer life with his family, shaping their days in the way they choose to as they explore new creative horizons together. That's my bio.

Incredible. What do you think? Amazing. Yes. Yes. So yes, incredible. I knew that, you know, our listeners are going to be in for, for not just a treat, but like really something truly creative, right? Where this just inspires, right? And it inspires in a way that I want to become Kalle Ryan, right? I want to be— Me too! Even that future Kalle Ryan, right? I want to really become that person, right? And I think that's exactly what a future buyer should look like, right? Which inspires us to actually make the choices now that move us into that direction.

Yeah, and we are just the stories we tell, Fredrik. We make and we process everything through stories. And so, Why not write a fantastical, fun version of the future and then just start doing it and being it? And when I came up with those titles for the books, I was like, yeah, I'm going to write those. Those sound like fun.

Amazing. So tell me more about that. Why don't we always tell these incredibly positive, forward-looking stories ourselves? Why don't we just create more of that work. We tend to rather like write the dystopian futures, right, that are filled with angst and filled with fear and anxiety and all of those things. Why are we not more doing that creative work?

Yeah, I wonder if it's a sign of the times as well. You know, it's like they say that zombie fiction and vampire fiction tends to surface back up in society when perhaps things are a little bit worse, and I think there's probably some truth in that if you think about sort of the cultural output of recent years. I think also, I think the modern viewer of, say, television stories or film stories is conditioned now to sort of almost watch terrible people doing terrible things. Now, I'm a big fan. I'll watch, you know, any of those shows just as much as the next person. But like, and I will come back to your specific question in a second, but I think about, say a show like Ted Lasso, which was a huge phenomenon during COVID particularly. And I think they hit on something that people were missing, which is a positive outlook, an optimistic outlook. You know, Succession is great, but they're reprehensible people doing reprehensible things, and probably all too real. But at some point, you think, I just want a bit of joy. And in the same way, I think about like, okay, what if I'm writing my story, which I am, you're writing your story, we're all writing our story every day. Why don't I write a version of that? So when you gave me the prompt, I was like, that's a good creative prompt. And every artist and creative and storyteller wants a prompt to go somewhere. Sometimes you see them in the daytime walking around and something captures your imagination, but also sometimes People feed you prompts. And I think this was a good prompt to think about, where do I wanna be? Where do I wanna go? Maybe this'll take more than 5 years, maybe it'll take less, but it's a better way of framing that idea to tell it like a story as if it has happened because it's all those things, visualization, manifestation, journal entries do the same thing. And it's far better than that classic interview question where it's like, where do you see yourself in 5 years? It's not the same. It immediately sparks the Mitch Hedberg joke. I don't know if you know him, one of the great comedians of all time. Very creative, great storyteller, great joke writer. But his one was, if somebody asks me that, like, where do you see yourself in 5 years? He always says, I want to say to them, celebrating the 5th anniversary of you asking me that question, because that's the best he could come up with in that moment. Right. But I think visualizing and telling yourself the story is far better because we are telling ourselves stories all the time. That's how we frame negative experiences, right? Tragedy plus time equals comedy, all those sort of classic things. So I think you're right. I think we're lacking some of that optimism. We're lacking some of that positivity. And we're also lacking the ability to process things into stories that actually have emotional resonance that makes people long for that. They want to long for something forward-looking. And that's, I think, the strongest thing, the case for storytelling there is, you know.

That's wonderfully framed. So if we step into a time machine for a moment and go back to the early days of Kali Ryan, right? You You might be one of the lucky ones that were born as a poet and a creative writer. So what was the first story you ever told that made you realize that storytelling is such a powerful tool in your life? Right? What was that epiphany when you felt like, oh, this is something really cool, there is power in stories, and I want to do more of that?

That's a great question because I haven't I think about sort of milestones in my life where you have these moments where you realize this creative thing won't go away. It's what drives me. It's who I am. I love the creative act. And I love the creative act even when there's no audience, right? In fact, sometimes it's better because you're making it for yourself. It's like you can't determine how an audience is gonna perceive something or the climate might be wrong for that creative idea at that time. It's not that the idea is bad, it's just maybe it didn't work at that time. At that time. So thinking back to like where storytelling and a creative act came from, I think I probably have to go back to my, my youth. I grew up in a place called Waterford in the southeast of Ireland. It's famous for crystal. I think a lot of your listeners probably would have heard of Waterford Crystal. In fact, the, the famous ball that gets lowered in Times Square on New Year's Eve is a Waterford Crystal construction. But anyway, I digress, that's a different story. But I think growing up in Waterford, I was very lucky because my dad was a painter and he had an art studio in, in the house. My mother a weaver, she had a full loom in one of the rooms as well. So instead of it being a dining room, it was the loom room. And my dad also formerly— this sounds hilarious for somebody who was on the wildly other side of the brain world of being a painter— he was a biochemist before that and worked for Irish distillers coming up with recipes for whiskeys. So he still fancied himself as a bit of a drink maker. And he had all kinds of bubbling concoctions on the walls. And I say all that because That was a formative thing in that I saw there's a loom here, there's a full art studio, there's these experiments are happening with drinks that I would never touch. And even when I reached the age of 18, when I was allowed to touch them, I touched them once and they were disgusting. Primrose wine from '92, not a good vintage. But what it did tell me was you have permission to be creative, and not only permission to be creative and permission to do these wild flights of ideas, It's, you should, there's a space dedicated to it. And I know that's similar to what you did with the Google Garage in California at Google and similar to what I did with Cloud9, sort of the sister lab, innovation lab in Dublin when I was at Google. And I think when I come back to your very original question, which is like, when was there a story or a creative moment where I realized this is a thing for me? I actually have this vivid memory, and I actually only just thought of this the other day, funnily enough. I remember being in Sweden as a kid, so I'm half Swedish, half Irish, and going to visit my grandparents in Sweden in this little town called Trollhättan, which is, for anyone listening, it now does film production and stuff, but in those days it was kind of a little hamlet outside of Gothenburg. And I remember going with my grandmother to church because that's what she did. She was a good Lutheran. And I remember being sort of transfixed by this pastor who was doing all this kind of wild gesticulating and telling a story. And I was like looking at him going, huh, he's quite good at telling a story. I don't— I'm not sure I care about the story. In fact, I don't think I fully understood it. And then I remember coming home and my parents were like, what did you do today? I said, oh, I went to church with my, with my grandmother. And they were like, "Oh yeah, what was that like?" And I, whatever reason, I launched into this impersonation of the preacher and I was doing all this stuff of taking off my glasses going, "Da da da," and it was very, very emotive. And the two of them were roaring laughing. And like even an hour later, my dad came in and goes, "Calla, do that impersonation again of the preacher. That was very funny." I remember thinking, "Wow, like I captured something that I just observed, translated it into," a story and a performance, I guess, you know, there was a creative filtering process and that I could like, not only obviously you're trying to impress your parents and you're trying to connect with them in whatever way, but it was even beyond that going, wow, I can make adults laugh and I can make adults laugh not by like telling jokes, like actually telling a story about something I observed. So I think funnily enough, I never thought I'd tell that story publicly, but I think there is something about it. And I'm really glad you asked me because From there, I obviously went on to— I did a lot of acting and stuff when I was younger, and I wrote, and writing ultimately ended up becoming the creative act that I think storytelling became what I do in different forms. But that probably was a pretty formative moment. So thanks for bringing up those memories.

Yes. Wow. That was a wonderful, just very vivid way of telling that. Stories really unlocked something in you, I guess, right? They really helped you to see like, oh, I have a special talent maybe in that formal way. And I want to, I want to take that forward. And so if you share a little bit more about your incredible journey from being that award-winning poet to leading internal communications at Google and at Meta, you know, how did you then make that bridge into taking what you've learned in that moment when you first acted out and people started laughing and people started to tell you like, hey, you should do more of that. How did you bring that into like the corporate world? What was that experience like?

Yeah, it's, that's a really interesting moment in my life. And as you probably know, I wrote a piece about it, which I sort of, I call sort of bringing Batman to work. And I'll give you sort of the short version. And if the listeners are interested, they can, they can visit my website afterwards. And there's a piece there, or perhaps we can link it in the show notes. But ostensibly, I'd been living quite a creative life anyway. And I'd written some plays, I was very grateful to have some success with those. And I, I was a performance poet, I founded a poetry festival in parallel to advancing in quite a, quite a, like a good career at Google. I, when I joined in Google in 2006, you know, in the Dublin office, there was only a few hundred people, you know, and by the time I left, there was something close to 7,000 people in the Dublin office. So I initially was working in the sales teams, and I sort of, I had an itch, you know, to do more and to communicate. And so when the role came up for internal communications, it was essentially to be the exec communications lead for the head of Google. And I got it on the strength of actually, interestingly, I still remember sitting in the interview with John Hurley, a great leader who I'm lucky enough to still be in contact with. And Ronan Harris, who subsequently went on to become the head of Google there as well. And I remember the interview, I had this moment where I sort of said to them, look, I think there's room here for creativity. I think there's room here to do more. It's not a one-and-done email that you need to be sending out. And by virtue of some of the creative work I'd been doing out in Dublin, I'd been running a show. The Irish Times had put out this really lovely list of the 100 most creative people in Ireland at the time, or creative catalysts, the 100 creative catalysts. And I was named on it, which was like a big deal for someone like me who wanted to be a creative person. And I was still trying to marry those things with my work. I was still bringing creative twists to little bits of communication in the teams I was in. But when I— so I think that clinched something for them in terms of hiring me. And after that, I was kind of off to the races because they gave me permission. To be creative. And what I describe in the Batman piece was essentially saying, for the longest time, Bruce Wayne was my corporate identity. That was who I was at work, to the point where I was known as Carl Ryan, because in Sweden, people who are called Carl, the nickname is Kalle, same way as Fred for Frederick, that kind of thing. And outside there, I was Kalle, and Kalle was the creative, he was Batman. And then I thought one day, what if I bring Batman to work? What would happen then? And I sort of, to extend that metaphor further, I sort of realized, oh, that's my superpower. Although ironically, we know Batman doesn't actually have superpowers. He has the superpower of a big corporation around him. So that, I guess that's ironic. But anyway, it doesn't matter. It doesn't serve my story. And if you know nothing else about stories, make the story more interesting than perhaps sometimes the way it should, the truth. Although that's probably not a great bit of advice. Anyway, the reality was once I brought that creative mindset to work, And I think it's also critical that I was given permission to be creative. I was able to accelerate my career pretty exponentially because within a couple of years I was looking after more than just executive communications in Dublin at Google. Within a couple of years I was at Meta and that creativity went further where I started creating videos and set up an entire internal video communications team around me. I was hosting video shows. I was interviewing fascinating people, Sheryl Sandberg, Adam Mosseri at Instagram, Nick Clegg, former WPM, these are really big minds. And it was all thanks to me just having a sort of a more creative mindset. So you could do a video news show at any company, but I said, why don't we do it in the style of John Oliver with headlines and that kind of thing? I used to joke with my friends, say I'm the only person who gets to have like a bit of fun and playful making fun of Mark Zuckerberg and get paid by Mark Zuckerberg to do it. So it was a really cool thing. And then on the back of that, I ended up sort of moving into a unique role that effectively I created called the head of internal Telecoms Innovation. So a lot of that was just coming up with cool, creative, interesting new ways to communicate with people. So there was a natural progression for me as I see it now, but on a sort of a— if in it I was just going, I'm just trying to do cool, interesting things, I'm still getting permission to do it. And then by the end of that time, I think the time had come where I was like, I've accumulated a lot of expertise, I've accumulated a lot of ideas, and that's why I felt it was time for me to take all those things, both the creative the corporate, all the other bits and pieces and put them into what I now do, which is my own business, Poetic, where I'm helping people with communication, presentation, facilitation of workshops, and really just sparking creativity. And storytelling is embedded within that creativity, right? That is my creative sort of tool, my biggest superpower. But I think that's sort of a very short version of what's been many years to this moment where I feel like I'm in the right place. I'm doing what I believe is right. And I've always done what I believe is right. But sometimes there's constraints in any kind of situation. Not to say there aren't now, but I think it's a much more freeing experience to be able to bring your creative brain and for people to hire you and go, I'm really interested in how you see this because I think you mentioned it at the start and it's very much the philosophy I have, which is Creativity isn't just the domain of artists. Sure, it is, and some people are naturally more creative than others, but I always talk about creativity, and certainly in the workshops I do, is it's a way of seeing the world. And I think that really relates to your body of work here around sort of the future mind state, that like, if you choose to see the world through a creative lens, you're gonna see so much more, and you're gonna see more opportunities. And of course, all the things that surround you that are challenging and tough and all that, they still exist. But if you're looking at things slightly differently, you're probably going to see more opportunities or you're going to see ways of doing things differently. So I guess what I say is creativity is my compass the whole way along. And communications is kind of the North Star. Storytelling is what I'm always trying to do as well.

I'm hearing from so many people something that you just shared, which is that they're looking for someone who gives them the permission slip to be creative. You got that permission, right, to be creative. From your team members, from the leaders of the organization and so forth. What happens if people just don't feel like they get the permission to be creative? Is there another way of looking at that? And what I mean by that is that, you know, creativity could also be something that you cultivate, right, with the right practices that you just exercise literally as similar as a, as a muscle. So, Kalle, one thing I would love to do on this podcast is to share some practical exercises with our listeners, right? Something they can try today to ignite their creativity.

Yeah.

Do you have some simple practices that you want to share with people so that they don't end up spending a lot of time just looking around for the people that give them their permission slip? Because I also believe that nobody should actually give you permission to be creative, right? You should always move forward and use your creativity in the best way possible.

Absolutely. And actually, I was going to say that before I give some of the practical stuff is you're better off asking for forgiveness rather than permission. Like, that's generally the way. And like, I framed it certainly that I got a lot of permission and I did. There's no way to deny that. But I also just went ahead and did it. Like with the video stuff, it was like, I'm just gonna make a pilot and then they liked it, right? So I think that's a definitely, I agree with you on that. Like just go ahead and do it. And also creativity loves constraint. So work within the walls that you're given because sometimes you get more creative to figure out how to make it interesting, right? In terms of practical tips, there are many, right? The one that I always go back to and I use a lot in my workshops is an exercise called glimmers. And the originator of this that I read about is a lady called Pam Houston, I believe is how you pronounce her name. And she had this— there's actually a lovely piece she wrote about how she came about this. But essentially, the glimmers is— and I'll get to the quote here exactly because I wanted to make sure I'm fair to her in terms of how she framed it. She said, okay, when you're stuck with a creative prompt or problem. Instead, just write down all the things that have arrested your attention lately that have glimmered at you in some resonant way. Set them next to each other and see what happens. So what that means is, and the way I do it in the workshops is I say, okay, grab a pen and paper, or in this day and age, a lot of people have a laptop, and write 3 glimmers. So 3 moments that sparkled, that glimmered at you, that maybe you didn't notice too much in the moment. It could have been somebody laughing across a room. It could have been you saw somebody sitting on the side of the road and maybe there was a conversation happening. It could have been something else. And I always say, write one about something that happened in the last 24 hours, write one about something that happened in the last 10 years, and then the last one, write something that happened at any time in your life. And the best thing to do here is just set a time limit. So this can flex depending on how much you want to do. But I think for a beginner, take 5 minutes or 10 minutes if you're feeling like you want to really go for it and write 10 minutes nonstop. And some of those minutes will be you thinking, what happened in the last 24 hours that was interesting or something that I noticed? And when that 10-minute timer goes off, stop. Just let it go. Go to the next one and go, something that happened in the last 10 years, then 10 minutes of that, and then stop and then go for something that happened at any time. And what's really interesting, if you recall what I said about Pam Houston there, she said, now set them together and look, are there any things that resonate between them? Is there a theme? And often it's kind of an act of journaling to some degree, but there's a creative writing component here and there's also a free writing component. That's why I like it, because it kind of opens up your eyes, your mind a bit in terms of the way you want to approach it. But what's interesting is no matter what you write, it always gets at the heart of what you're actually thinking or feeling, and you will be able to trace interesting lines. And what it also does is if you're a writer or a storyteller, it gives you a fantastic foundation for something that you could conceivably build on later as well. So I think that's my favorite exercise to share with people. And it's one that I know Pam Houston is the originator. I know my good friend, the poet Colm Keegan, uses it all the time, and Aaron Fornoff, another great poet based here in Ireland. So it's one one that has traveled and it's one that works and it generally gets a really good response. And I think I would encourage your listeners to just try it out because I think there's magic in it and there's magic in trying to explore those thoughts and give yourself the time to explore them as well.

Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that. And it's such a simple but powerful way of, as you said, get into that also free flow state of mind, right, where you just get into that creation mode, right, which is sometimes so powerful, even if you don't see the value in the beginning, right, what you're creating. There might be connections that appear afterwards. There might be new ideas that are sparked. So it's truly a gift. Thank you for sharing that gift with us.

And just to say, Fredrik, one last thing on that is All writing— this is another thing I say a lot in the workshops, but I think all writing is rewriting. So the great part about that is that's your free one. You don't have to worry about any audience or anything else. It's for you. But then you might find something that you can rewrite that becomes a thing, you know. And even if that never gets out into the world, I think there's something beautiful about that. And I think that's, that's the art of crafting a story as well.

So anyway, yes, beautiful. It reminds me of an exercise we actually did last time you were visiting me over here with your wonderful family. And I remember we were in a circle and we chose the exercise one word at a time, right? Yes. Where someone started with a random word, right? And you go in the circle one by one, just adding one word at a time, right? And it was so beautiful because, you know, a mix of adults and children, of all of us trying to build a sentence that has some sort of meaning, right? And I think beautiful sentences were built, right? And you end the exercise literally by just agreeing or applauding when you feel like the sentence is complete in some form or some way. And my kids still remember that because it's such a a way of building also connections with each other around these stories that you craft literally together, equally. And so, when I do that with leaders in workshops as a warm-up exercise, we create those moments of inspiration but also of fun, right? Just fun crafting something together equally. And so, it's not the leader in the room who decides what story is going to be shared and told. It's everybody that participates. And I think that's a very interesting way of looking at storytelling as well, that great, we can listen to the great storytellers, but also we have that ability to craft stories together. Right. And sometimes with these little exercises, we can, we can do that.

Yeah. And you're creating a world premiere every time because it never existed before. And you all did that together.

Absolutely. Yeah. So you're saying we're actually innovating, right?

Of course. Always, Fredrik. What else is there?

What I want to share now is what I call a mindstate moment, right? Just a moment of reflection, a moment of imagination as well, to try to really connect with yourself and trying to practice to tap into your superpowers, right? Which imagination is clearly one that we all humans have. Next, let's take a moment to pause and reconnect. This is your mind state moment, a chance to reset and come back to yourself, wherever you are right now. These moments of presence are powerful. They remind us that the future starts from within, by shifting how we show up in this very moment. Let's take a moment to again connect with our imagination, because because I feel like creativity often just flows when we create a little space for it, right? And you don't need to be in a quiet place, whether you're walking or working or just listening. We're going to invite you to use more creativity in the next couple of moments. So take a deep breath in through your nose, and as you exhale, Just imagine you're holding a book in your hands. Just imagine that. And imagine that these pages are blank. And with every breath you take in and you breathe out, you're ready to write something new. So literally, your time, your writing with your breathing. And with your next breath in, just think of an idea. Could be something from your day that stood out. It could be a moment, a conversation, or just something you noticed. And let that idea be the first line of your story while you continue to breathe in and breathe out. And with your next breathe in, just imagine that idea growing, becoming a story, an adventure, or even just a thought that lingers. Just let your curiosity take the lead. Now picture yourself walking through a forest of ideas, each tree holding a possibility, a new story waiting to be discovered. Some are fully formed, others are still seeds, but all of them are part of your creative landscape. Landscape. And as you continue with your day, just know that creativity is always within reach. Every moment can be there to start a new story, waiting for you to pause, breathe, and explore. Great. Thanks for taking that mind state moment with me. So, Kaleigh, I like to go back to some of the thoughts that you've shared in the beginning where we really talked about imagination, right? Trying to imagine that future story that you want to see happening. And there's a great quote from William Arthur Ward, who said, "If you can imagine it, you can achieve it. If you can dream it, you can become it." Right? I think that's a very powerful way of bringing that together. And when we think about imagining these stories, how can stories we tell today really shape the future we want to create tomorrow? Like, tell us a little bit more how we can just become better storytellers? What are some of the ways that really help us to tell these optimistic, these stories of awe, these stories that really inspire us where we say, like, I can't wait to live in that future?

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think there's so much possibility. I think one of the things I often think about is that, like, Creating a story about a future self, as we're sort of exploring today, that sort of encourages intentional living, if you follow my drift. And sort of this idea of like, if you're actively crafting the story of your future self, then that storytelling is going to like help you live with intention to like, to actualize, to do that, to be that. And I think also, storytelling helps you reframe the past or negative experiences. Because I mean, you know, the future doesn't exist without something that's propelled us to that point, you know, like, we're all miracles, really, in the sense that we've achieved or gotten to where we are. And I'm conscious of so many people's journeys are different. But I think if you can tell your story, sometimes that's the most powerful thing of all. And It's why TED Talks are so popular, right? Because a lot of them are ultimately autobiographical with a nugget of wisdom, right? And everyone has fascinating experiences. And anyone who tells you— like, it's like when people say, I'm not creative. You're creative. You just, you know, like, and that doesn't mean you can tell stories necessarily. But we all tell stories. You know, Ireland is a nation of storytellers, you know, Wilde, Beckett, Joyce, you know, we've We've had some of the heavyweights, right? But equally, you go to the average pub in Dublin and everyone's telling a story. Let me tell you about when my friend went here or when I bumped into such and such, right? Those are all stories. And there's ways to sort of craft who you are and who you are becoming. And I think also, no matter how boring you think your story is, a story has automatic intense sort of— what's the word I'm looking for? It's like even though it's literally just a sequence of events, you're sort of feeling that there's something is going to happen in this story because, you know, we're conditioned to listen to stories. You know, I was lucky enough to have parents who read me stories at bedtime. And so storytelling is naturally there. And I think storytelling in Ireland, in fairness, is very much a fabric of who we are. But I think that notion of like a story itself can kind of propel itself along. And if you if you want to get on that train, that train is going to take you to that destination. And I think if you were to sort of— that's from a personal perspective. And I know it's a bit vague and ethereal, but even if you think of it in a work context, I know the Harvard Business Review recently put something out saying storytelling is the number one leadership skill because really storytelling is about making an emotional connection. And I always say communication is like, what do you want them to think, know, or do, but I also think it's like, what do you want them to feel? And it's like the Maya Angelou one, isn't it? Maya Angelou sort of said like, people will never remember what you said, but they will remember how you made them feel. And I think if you can make yourself feel that optimism and that joy, you know, one of the things I say to my kids, you know, when they're sort of being down on themselves or they're criticizing or like, oh, that was so stupid, I shouldn't have done that. I go, "Hey, don't talk to my son that way." Or like I say it to myself, where I'm maybe questioning something, I go, "Hey, don't talk to Calla that way. Don't talk to Batman that way." I think you have to think about telling the story of yourself in a much more positive light. And it is, it's something I see in you and it's one of the things I admire about you is your relentless optimism. You know, you are always thinking, what's the best possible scenario? What's the most interesting possible outcome here? And I think that's really what I believe the power of creativity and storytelling is, is you can literally write your own story and then follow that story or do the story and document it afterwards if you want to, if that's the way your brain operates, or if you're a visual storyteller, make a board of photos, put a collage together, or There's a thing I used to do, which was I literally cut out words in newspapers and then stuck them down into poems. And I think the Dada poets did something similar, like their poetry salads, I think they called them, or something like that. But anyway, it's a great way to capture those sort of stories. So there's sort of the writing the future one, and then there's sort of the ongoing storytelling for yourself and sort of checking in with yourself. It gets a bit ethereal when you talk about it in these sort of ways, but I still think the concrete act of writing or capturing an idea and reviewing it and understanding where you're at at that moment is a great way of sort of signposting where you're going. And I remember sort of thinking one time, that's, that's who I want to be. So that's why I'm writing it, because that's where I want to go. And I think storytelling can help you not only influence others but influence yourself. And a great storyteller, let's face it, you listen to some of the greatest storytellers of all time, you're there, you're with them. It's like when you read a great book, all I wanna do is go back to that world. Or if you hear a great speaker, you're like, holy mackerel, they're brilliant. And I think, although maybe people don't say holy mackerel anymore, I do, I'm of a certain vintage, but you know what I mean? I think there's something about the captivating, compelling act of hearing a great story well told is like nothing else. And I think that's the thing I try and impart in everything I do, in all the work I do, whether it's a workshop or on a stage or in a just even a communications plan. You're telling stories and you're telling stories that make people feel something. It's an emotion thing. It's not necessarily a data or facts thing. And I think that's also— you should write the story of how you want to feel.. And I think that was kind of where you started with this question, which was like, what does that feel like to be that person in 5 years? And when I read that, my own bio, I was like, I want to hang out with that guy. I want to be that guy, like we said at the start. So why not write the story you want to have?

Such a beautiful connection that you're making here. And it reminds me of that quote from J.K. Rowling, who said, the role of the storyteller is to awaken the imagination of the listener. And so if everybody can be a better storyteller, imagine what's possible. You literally awaken the imagination of the people around you. And how beautiful is that? That's leadership at its best, because that's the only thing you basically need to do. And absolutely. Yeah.

And that's connection.

I also like that. Stories really help us to speak from the heart and reach people in a deeper way, right? I think we sometimes forget that creativity is a powerful way to bring more humanity into our work, right? And I think in today's world, yeah, we need more leaders and we need more people to be more intentional, as you said, in how they connect with their people around them, right? If you're a leader of a community, if you're a family member, if you're a group of friends, right? Think about how these stories really make you feel, right, in those settings and how you can use storytelling to create that sense of connection, of belonging even, right? And so it really brings purpose even. Yes. And it brings a visual to my mind of sitting around a fireplace, right, where we in the past probably told the greatest stories, right? Looking at the stars and looking how the fire is is burning and the sparks are sparkling around from the fire and then really telling these deeply human stories. And I think going back to that fireplace metaphor and really thinking about how can we build those connections through stories and feel that deeply human way of connecting with each other.

I think you have something really powerful there. And I think just to say, to build on that, human connection is built through stories because that's kind of— that's— that isn't— isn't that that saying about like, you live as long as the last person who's able to tell a story about you or who remembers you? And I think I remember hearing years ago, and I'd love it if you have listeners in Australia, I'd love for them to give me the actual facts on this, but I remember a friend of mine had spent time with an Aborigine tribe in Australia and he had been told that in the tribes, there was one member whose job was to be the storyteller. And so let's imagine that tribe had a 1-mile radius that they covered, and his job was to remember the stories of that specific stretch of land and to recount them to the juniors in the tribe, and for that then to go on and on so that the story stayed alive. I don't know if that's 100% accurate, but I always loved that idea that that there's somebody dedicated to be the storyteller. And I think even in our society today, there are people who are the dedicated storytellers. For me, I think a lot of them are stand-up comedians. They're the ones who are actually probably the bravest to tell stories now that actually connect us to what we're actually thinking or what we're feeling. There's a little bit more boldness with what they're doing. And I think also journalists, true journalists who are actively seeking out stories to tell are the ones who are connecting us to purpose, to meaning, to belonging, to emotion, to community and conviviality. And that idea of sitting around a campfire is absolutely the sort of the centerpiece of that. And it's expanded. And I think, you know, look, I'm going to be biased, but I think storytellers and creatives are really the ones who give us meaning in this world. And the rest of it is is what happens when you're busy making other plans, like John Lennon said. So I think you're right. You know, I think certainly the stories can help you in ways that we can't even probably fathom on some level.

So looking forward, I think we have an incredible opportunity here to become better storytellers ourselves, right? And that is with the use of AI, right? I think we have a wonderful partner now that really helps us not just write stories or poetry in a way that we've never probably imagined, but also having someone we can brainstorm with, get creative with, ask questions, but also being asked of, you know, something that we value or we find that is purposeful for us. So how do you think AI and technology is helping you as a storyteller and a poet in the future?

Yeah, it's a topic I'm really fascinated by, Fredrik, and obviously The go-to thing that a lot of people are saying now is AI is not gonna take your job as a creative or as a storyteller. It's people who have learned how to use AI are gonna overtake you because they're using the modern technology. And there's probably some truth to that. I think what's really interesting about AI is, for me, it's just a tool and it's another toy that I can use to help me. Like for me, a lot of the time it's about, maybe condensing text that I wanna work with. I don't think, so from my perspective, the AI tools, for example, the Geminis and the ChatGPTs of this world are not creative really. For me, all of those AI large language models are really just a remix. And I remember there's a great Irish writer who lives in Sweden, Phil O'Connor. He wrote recently and he sort of said like, what those things do is, regurgitate crappy writing. And we all know that crappy writing is not good, right? So that, that's one take on it. But I think there's some truth to what he's saying in that I still believe that the human mind, the creative mind, has to give that initial spark and that initial piece of, of, of impetus, the creative idea, to allow that tool to bounce back with whatever it is, if you even need help with your grammar and those kind of things. I think it's only obviously going to get better. And like, there is a sterility to the stuff you see in those, I find, you know, and also interestingly, as somebody from Europe like yourself, there's quite an American sort of language tone to them sometimes as well. Now you can adjust it and tell it, please write more like the wonderful Marina Hyde from Guardian and make it more sarcastic. And it'll do it to a certain degree. I think where it has real value for me anyway is like you said, where I'm like, I need you to start asking, interrogating me to try and help me explore where I need to go deeper. Like, because sometimes I think you're stuck in that. And certainly creativity and storytelling can sometimes be quite a solitary existence, certainly these sort of the artistic pursuits. And I think it's good to have feedback. Now, nothing beats a human piece of feedback, somebody you trust, love, adore, respect, who can tell you the true unvarnished truth of it as well. Or even just a bit of affirmation and praise goes a long way as well. We're fragile, these creative people. But I do also think that the AI has a place. And that place for me is sort of interrogation research. I like to use it as a research tool. I want to get some details right about, say, certain components of a story I'm writing or a speech I'm writing where I want to get citations and sources. It's getting better at that. But I also think if you think of it as a partner, then you're probably better off than thinking of it as the replacement. Because as good as the art is on those AI-generated things, it doesn't even come close to like that painting by my friend James or my father's paintings upstairs. Those have soul in them. And there's no soul in an AI-generated piece of art. It's a remix of loads of other great art, and it can look magnificent, and it can bring out, evoke things. But by the same token, so can a scribble on a page. I might get just as deep an emotional connection with it. So for me, it's a collaborative tool that maybe allows me to further my own ideas by questioning things, or certainly just playing with it, being able to play and get some information. But as an active creative tool, I'm not sure it's there yet. And almost on some parts of me almost wishes that it doesn't. It's not even I wish. I don't think it can replace that because you still need an idea. And the idea that that's the most vital soft skill we're going to have in the future, you know, like even the World Economic Forum said by 2027, Creativity is going to be the third most in-demand skill for any job in the world. That's pretty telling. And it makes sense. In a world of automation, in a world of AI, of course those things are going to take over certain facets of any working day or anybody's personal life even. But you will not be able to replace the creative idea, the spark, And that is what makes us human. And that's why I'm not worried about AI turning into Skynet or whatever it might be like. I don't think that that's a worry because I'm a creative person and I believe everyone has creativity within them. That's my job to bring it out of people. And I think that's what makes me feel more optimistic about the future because creativity is going to be the most important thing. I think critical thinking and empathy are pretty big ones as well. But I do believe, and this is sort of where I build all of my work around, is if I can help you be more creative, then I think I can help you in the future. And I think that's a big part of the story I'm telling. And I'm really glad I can tell that story today with you.

Amazing. Thank you for sharing that story, Karlheinz. And I took note of something you just said, which is that we humans are fragile characters, right? We, you know, want to hear feedback from a friend if our creative work is not that good. And, you know, but we want to hear that feedback in a way that it doesn't break us, right? It's kind of like it's helpful in a way. And sometimes a hug goes a long way, right? And I think that's what AI still can't do is giving us a good hug. What do you say?

Yeah, I can't give me a hug. I think that's the headline from this interview, my man. I can't give us hugs.

And kudos to you for sparking that idea. I think AI can give us, you know, feedback. It can help us to become better writers. And it's very powerful. But sometimes if we feel like our creative work is not where we want it to be, right? We need someone to give us a hug and say, it's okay, you gave your best, you tried. And that's most important, right? And then exactly.

Or give you a hug and say, that's brilliant. Well done. And like all of those things are important, but you're right. And I think that still comes back to that idea of emotion. And for me, communication, creativity, all of these things that, that I care about, that I want to bring out in others. And that you bring out in me, I bring out in you, right? From the minute we started working together and became friends, like, there's inspiration there. And I can get inspiration from AI, but I don't have— there's no soulful connection. There's no emotion for me. It's a cold thing. You know, it's like how brilliant a Stanley Kubrick movie is, but it's ice cold. Or Christopher Nolan, who I adore, but it's ice cold. I need emotion in my storytelling, and I think I think that's where we really, really get the best out of these things.

Absolutely. Yeah. I wish I could give you a hug now for this wonderful conversation. I mean it, Khalid. Thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your insights.

It's been a pleasure. Pleasure. Pleasure, Frederik. Really lovely chatting to you. And I always come away from conversations with you going, Yeah, I got to think about that a bit more because that's a really good idea. Or like, you just say something very in your gentle sort of thoughtful way. And I go, that's pretty profound. I need to go off and ponder that a little bit more. So thank you. And thanks to the listeners out there for joining in our conversation. You know what I mean? It's lovely to know that maybe somebody listened to something we said today and it sparks them on a creative journey. And that's another one in a million. That's another person who's going out there and doing something new, making a world premiere of their creative thought and took it from in their mind to a page, to a canvas, to whatever form they want. Or maybe it sees the light of day, maybe it doesn't. But that moment happened. And I think that's a beautiful place to be.

Wonderful. Yeah, it's so clear that storytelling and creativity aren't just tools for artists, right? As you mentioned, they're essential for anyone looking to lead, to connect, and to shape a better tomorrow, shaping a better future. So to our listeners, think about how you can start using storytelling in your own life, right? Maybe it's writing, speaking, or simply sharing your thoughts with someone. Every moment is an opportunity to bring creativity in your world. And remember, the future isn't something that just happens. It's something we create story by story. And Kalle showed us today how to do that. So, Kalle, where can our listeners find more of your work and connect with you?

Probably the easiest thing to say is my website, www— did I say 3 of them? Well, you know, I don't even— you don't even need that part. Poetic.ie, P-O-E-T-I-C.ie. So poetic.ie, it's where all my work is. And also you can find pieces I've written that I mentioned today, like the Batman post, and I've written about creativity at length and Even there's, there's, there's even posts on there about you and me doing your book launch in Dublin. So if anybody would like to come and find me there, and also you can write an email to me, I'm always happy to hear from other folks with creativity and ideas at calle@poetic.ie. So please reach out. I'd love to talk to you.

Thank you again, Calle. And to all of our listeners, thank you for joining us on The Future Is How. If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it with someone who might need a little creative inspiration. Together, we can shape a better tomorrow. Until next time, remember, the future isn't something that happens to us. It's something we create one story at a time. Thank you so much. That's a wrap for today's episode of The Future Is How. Remember. The future isn't something we wait for. It's something we create with every choice, every breath, and every step we take. If this episode sparked something in you, share it with someone who's ready to shape what's next. And don't forget to subscribe and leave a review. Your next chapter begins now. So what will you create today? I'll see you in your future.