'Don't Settle for Medi-Okra-ty' - Everything you need to know about growing okra.

Welcome to the Grow youw Self podcast. Surprising stories about the food we eat and inspiring conversations about what it really takes to live the whole and happy life we're all craving. I'm Nicole Johnsey Burke, your host and the owner of Rooted Garden and Gardenary Incorporated and author of Kitchen Garden Revival.

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Welcome back to the Grow youw Self podcast. I'm so excited to have the Wonderful guest Jill McSheehy here from the Beginner's Garden Podcast. Jill, welcome.

Thanks so much, Nicole. It's a pleasure to be on your show today.

So if some of my listeners, I'm pretty sure most of them have heard of you already, especially because you've been in the podcast world much longer than me, but will you let them know a little bit about yourself?

Yeah. I live in Arkansas, and I've been gardening since 2013, so I'm a relative newcomer to gardening. But from that first season, I just fell in love and it became my passion. And then a few years later, I wanted to do something to help other people start growing their own gardens and be able to find information that more of it at a more basic level than most of the information that I was able to find. And so that's why I started the Beginner's Garden, to try to help people to find that basic beginner gardening information so that they could have the great experience of growing their own food like I've enjoyed.

That's so great. It is so true. Right? Like, I experienced that too when I first started Gardening, it was like, okay, I need to learn this from someone who isn't like a horticulture PhD. Yeah, yeah. So that's awesome. I think sometimes self taught gardeners are the best teachers. So fun. Okay, well, today we are going to talk about a very fun food. You want to tell everybody what it is?

One of my favorites. It would be okra.

Okra. So I have to say, Jill, when we reached out to you and invited you and you said the thing you wanted to talk about was okra, I was a little surprised because to be honest, I have not met that many human beings who are excited about okra. So please tell us why okra is your favorite.

Honestly, I think a lot of it goes back to my childhood in that even though I was a first time gardener in 2013 as a 33 year old, if I can remember right, my mom always had a vegetable garden growing up and okra was one of the staples that she had in the garden. And, and I just remember her harvesting and growing okra and then she would fry up okra because we're a good southern family and we would have fried okra in the summertime. And there's just so many sweet memories to growing and eating it as a child. And then as I became a gardener myself. Of course I'm going to grow okra, but it's a pretty easy crop to grow, especially if you live in an area like mine where it gets hot during the summer. And it's one of the crops that when everything else is struggling in the heat, okra shines. And so it's just one of those crops that I love to eat, but it's also relatively easy to grow. So that's why I just enjoy talking about okra and I try to get as many people to try it as I can.

That is so fun. So I grew up in the south too. I grew up in Mississippi and Louisiana and a staple on all of our tables in the summer was pickled okra. Do you eat pickled okra too or just fried okra?

I don't care for it personally, but my husband and my son love it and so I do pickle it every year.

Oh, gosh. Okay, well, I will have to get a recipe from you because I've never actually made pickled okra, but I do anything pickled, honestly, I can eat it.

Okay. So I found a recipe that's really good. I've tried a couple of them and of course my husband's kind of particular, so he found one he likes. So I'LL have to send it along to you.

Okay. Fun. It's the deal. So today, Jill and I are gonna dig into okra. We're gonna tell you about how I got started, how it came to the US and we're going to give you some tips on how you can grow it yourself. And then we're also going to do a food fight between okra and the other summer superstar, sweet potatoes. So let's dig in. So, Jill, what do you know about the history of okra? Like, how did it even become a thing that we grow and eat? And were you able to kind of. Do you know where it started? Got started.

From what I can tell, most people believe that okra originated in. Around Ethiopia, perhaps in Africa, and then it migrated to the Middle east, and then as far as us here in the U.S. in North America, it ended up here from, most people believe, through slave trade ships. And so we know that okra was cultivated and in the Thomas Jefferson era, and he actually wrote about it, so we know that he grew it there. That's something that's for sure. It may have. Most people, like I said, believe that it came to the US from slave trade ships, but then some people think that it may have also gotten here from French colonists. So there could be a couple of different ways that it originated, but it made its home in the south, you know, obviously, because it grows really, really well here.

Wow. Yeah. I can remember one of my first summers in Houston. I was working with a landscaper who was helping me with a rooted garden client, and we were planting okra. And I don't know if this is true, but he was like, did you know that slaves braided okra seeds into their hair and brought it over? Now, that just could totally be folklore, but it was such a beautiful story to me of in such a horrible situation, people having, like, loyalty to their food, you know, and this beautiful, like, respect for Africans and they're tied to the land and food. So, anyway, every time I see okra, I don't know if that's actually a true story, but I do think, like, wow, it's really special how people can be connected to the foods they love.

Yes.

That's cool. Okay. So, yeah, so Thomas Jefferson definitely grew. I remember seeing okra growing in Monticello when I would take those walks with my babies back in our Charlottesville days. And it's kind of funny that it. So Charlottesville is not truly South. Right. But it still can thrive in Virginia summers. It sounds like you have a lot of success growing it there in Arkansas. What did the temperatures get up to in the summers there?

I would say in the height of the season, we're pretty well into the 90s most of the time. We do have hundred occasionally. The big thing with us is we do have high humidity, so it's not unheard of to have several weeks of, you know, heat index values over 100. We tend to reach average high temperatures over 85 at about the end of May. So we're able to plant seeds in the garden. I typically plant early May, and then okra really just starts taking, taking off in June. And then we have a good, you know, three months of good consistent harvesting, I would say. And then it kind of slows down in September when the day length reduces and the temperatures moderate a bit.

Wow. Okay, so. So you start with okra seed. And do you have a seed that you or a particular type of okra that you prefer?

I have always grown Clemson spineless. I think that's just because that's what I chose that first year. And then I've been saving my okra seed every year, and so I just continue growing the same seed. And then a couple of years ago, a podcast listener, or I think I've met her on Instagram, anyway, she sent me seed and she didn't know it was a red okra. She didn't know what exactly it was called because it had come from Angola. So she called it Angola okra. And I've been looking at seed catalogs every year trying to figure out what kind this is, and I still don't know for sure, but it was a red okra that had a little bit of a different growing habit and it was really good and really prolific. So those are the two that I've grown. And this year I decided that I love okra so much. Let's see what other varieties are out there. So I'm trying a new variety this year called Alabama Red. So we'll see how that goes.

How fun. Okay, and so you start directly from seed and do you direct sow into the garden?

I do that first year when I was a first year gardener and I didn't know what else to do. I did buy some transplants from the garden center and they transplanted fine and I had a really good harvest. But in general, it's just easier to self or easier to direct sow because they germinate really well in the warm soil and it's nice.

Right, because okra seeds are a little bit larger. So to me, some of the hardest seeds to direct sow are the tiny ones. I mean, they're usually the ones you have to direct sow, but it's so hard to thin them. Right, but with, with okra seeds, do you find you can spread them out pretty well? Do you have to thin them or what's the process after you get them settled into the garden?

I do probably over sow and that's more just because I. So like I said, I saved my own seeds so I have a lot of seed. I don't have to be chintzy with making sure that I, that I sow it well. So I probably over sow and then yes, I do end up having to thin them later, which is hard. But like I said, when you save your own seed and you save so much, you don't have to be so particular about that.

That's the best. Seeds are like so amazing, right?

They are.

Okay, so walk us through the process you tell us about. So I know you were telling me earlier that you have a lot of land and so maybe could you walk our listeners through what your garden setup looks like and how much space you give to your okra?

Well, I would say my actual garden space where I actually grow is about 2,500 square feet. But the whole, I haven't actually measured the garden perimeter because we do have it fenced in and we do have I think maybe 14 raised beds. I'm trying to remember. I add every year and I lose count, but I have lots of raised beds within that space. But I, because I'm planting two different varieties of okra and I'm a little concerned about them cross pollinating, maybe I shouldn't be concerned. Maybe I should be more concerned.

I'm not really sure.

But I do plant my two different varieties on opposite sides of the garden space. And on one side I'll do, you know, probably two rows that are about 25ft long. So the 50, 50ft row of okra. And then on the other side I think I have maybe two 10 foot long rows. So maybe 70, 75ft foot row of okra. But I have grown them in raised beds before. I just, I tend to grow mine in the ground because they grow so easily. I am able to save my raised bed space for other crops.

Yeah, I think that's smart. And do you have a clay soil in Arkansas?

Oh goodness, yes. Not, not like the Georgia clay I've been hearing about, but it's a definitely a clay soil.

And it seems like, I mean, from my experience, okra doesn't mind it's just like, whatever. I'll grow wherever.

I have noticed that. Yes. Now I have, because I've compared different types of soil in my garden. Definitely the looser, loamy soil produces a larger, more healthy plant. But when I've planted in those poor areas that don't drain well, they still give me a harvest.

That's awesome. So we're talking tons of okra plants. Is that true?

From those foot rows, like, how many.

Plants are we talking?

I end up keeping them about a foot apart. So I guess maybe 70 plants, now that I think about it.

That's amazing.

That's a lot.

That's a lot. Okay. So you plant by seed, and you plant them a foot apart, and you're growing about 70. Now, what I think is really interesting for all of you listening, so. So in Houston, my rooted garden clients, we grow okra throughout the summer. In Chicago, where I'm now gardening, it's really not possible to get okra here. Is that crazy?

Have you tried?

Well, no, to be honest, no. So I've only had one full summer here, but I have a good friend, Sarah Gaspar. She's from Chicago, and she runs Verdure Gardens. Do you follow her?

I don't think so.

She does beautiful work. She's now in Nashville, but she and I had some good chats about Chicago. So she grew okra here for clients, just for the flowers. So basically she said you could get far enough into the season to get the flowers, but it was pretty hard to get enough hot days to end up with the actual okra. Have you ever done anything fun with the flowers?

I have not. Besides just beholding them because they're gorgeous.

They are so pretty. Right. So I didn't realize that when I first started growing okra that it's in the hibiscus family. But it was as soon as I started to, like, when those. Those first plants that I grew of okra flowered, I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, it's almost like an ornamental. Right? Okay, So I have to know with 70 plants, I have to tell you. Like, with my okra in Houston, it was so hard to stay on top of the harvest before they got to, like, cardboardish. You know what I'm talking about?

Yes.

So how do you do that? So for you guys listening, why don't you tell them about the maturation of the okra in the process?

Yeah. From what I understand, after you see that beautiful bloom, it produces an okra pod pretty quickly. Within a few days, up to a week. I Haven't timed it, but from what I've read, that seems about right. And early in the season, it comes on, you know, where I could probably harvest every couple of days. And then the hotter that it gets, I pretty much have to harvest every single day because the okra pods will mature so fast. And then they will get hard where you. You take a knife to it and you'll just hear a crunch. And nobody wants to eat that because it's past. You just can't do anything with them at that point. But then the bad part of it is, is if you don't keep that okra plant harvested, then it will slow down production. So the more you pick it, the more it's going to produce. And then if you leave too many of those pods on the plant, it'll. It'll still produce pods for you, just not at the same rate. That's probably the biggest challenge, honestly, growing okra is keeping it picked at the height of the summer. And so it's just a matter of going out there. Now. One thing that I do, if some of them early in the season, if I don't get them in time, I will still cut them for the purpose of continuing that production scale, I'll still cut them and maybe give them to the chickens, although honestly, chickens don't like tough okra either. But for the end of the season, probably in August, I won't bother with picking the ones that have gotten too hard. I will leave them on the plant because those are the ones that I want to save seed from. So that way I'll still be able to harvest. And course, by the time September gets here, we're all sick of okra, so we're okay with not having them every other night. So it ends up being fine at that point.

Okay, so how long would it take you on a. Let's say the height of the summer on like an August morning, to harvest from 70 plants of okra?

Oh, probably five minutes. It didn't take long.

And do you snap it or do you have to cut, like, with pruners or.

I definitely cut with pruners. First of all, they're not easy to snap off like other ones. A lot of times you'll run the risk of just having to tug and damaging plant. So I definitely harvest with pruners. And then I don't know if everybody's like this. I don't know if you're like this, Nicole, or not, but I really get itchy if I'm not wearing some kind of a sleeve or A long glove, because those. Those leaves can be a little irritating on the skin. So I definitely wear gloves when I'm harvesting as well.

I have that too. I almost, for one. One season, I was like, am I allergic to okra? Like, this is so crazy. It's so fun to see how plants have created these. It's almost like plants are people, right? And okra is like, don't touch me, girl. Yeah, it's like, I'm keeping this. It's almost like she wants to make her seed, right? So, like, she doesn't want you to harvest so she can turn into a lot more okra or something.

Yeah.

Well, so one of the questions I asked you if you knew of any funny stories or extreme stories, anything that we may not have heard before about okra.

Well, the story that I find fascinating, I'm not sure if I would consider it funny or extreme, but I find it very interesting. A coffee lover. Supposedly you can use the mature okra seeds and roast them and then grind them into coffee. And I did find a source that said that in the Civil War, this is what they used for coffee when the coffee imports were disrupted. I've never done this before, but I've often been curious about it. I just haven't really been able to find a good how to source to be able to try to roast my own okra seeds for coffee. But I think that that would be really fun thing to try.

That sounds so fun. I have to admit, it does not sound appealing to me at all, but I'm like, don't mess with my coffee. You know what I'm saying?

You know what? It did cross my mind, though, because, you know, when everybody was hoarding toilet paper at the beginning of this Covid thing.

Yes.

I wasn't hoarding toilet paper, but I made sure and got my coffee, and it did cross my mind. I'm like, well, if. I guess if we don't have a coffee supply, I could always go into this okra seed thing and see if that works as a substitute.

That's right. So if we're still in serious, you know, challenges in the middle of summer, I'm going to call you to send me some okra seeds, since I know you have it in spades over there. That's fun to know. And, yeah, clearly, I, you know, I think a lot. I mean, here in Chicago, it was funny this summer we were wanting to make gumbo. I don't know if you make gumbo with your okra.

I do. Yes.

Yeah. It's so good Right. I mean, that's just like. That's a dish that I grew up on. And so. But I wasn't growing okra, and I didn't have any. So would you believe I could not even find it frozen at the grocery store here?

Really?

Yeah. Like, I think it's just something that maybe.

Maybe people don't eat it up there because they can't grow it.

Possibly. So. And so I thought, wow, you know, it's. It's really cool. I think to. So much of our food system now is like, everybody eats the same thing everywhere, right? Like, you can't tell where things are grown because it's just like, every grocery store has kiwi. You know, you're like, oh, we must have kiwi in Chicago. Right? And, like, everyone's got apples at the same time and oranges at the same time. But that was an interesting thing to me. I was like, huh? Like, maybe this is one of the few things that still represents, you know, local food and food diversity. But so speaking of that, do you. We clearly know that okra loves the heat. Do you have any idea where most of the okra in the US has grown or how we get our okra around the country?

From what I've been able to discern, there should be okra farms, if I'm not mistaken, in most of the southern states, specifically Texas, Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia, even California, I believe. And then I don't know if I mentioned Florida or not, but I think Florida, from what I read, could they could actually grow okra 10 months out of the year. I don't know if they do that or not, but they could. And then I guess Georgia, from what I can tell, grows a lot of okra for the soup and frozen food industry. So as far as the okra that we see on our grocery store shelves, which, honestly, I just snubbed my nose at, because every time I see them, they just look so over. I don't know if you'd say overripe for okra, but they're already starting to brown.

Yeah, I'm not sure.

I'm not sure where they come from because okra doesn't have that long of a shelf life in a refrigerator, So I don't know, like, how far it would have had to travel.

That's a great point. So I see that too. Like, honestly, I've never bought fresh okra from the store because it looks so gross to me. So from your own experience, like, let's say you. Let's say you pick some this morning from the garden. How soon would you need to either freeze it or use it before it would not be enjoyable anymore?

I would say in my experience, within a week. I mean, I would say the technical answer is probably within a couple of days, but I have been able to use it within a week.

Yeah. Okay, so if you're like, let's say if you're living far from okra farm, then most likely the okra you're seeing at the grocery store is past that point.

Yeah.

Yeah. So maybe the better thing to do if you can't grow your own or buy it from a local farmer would be to buy it frozen, perhaps.

I don't use it frozen all that much, but yeah, that would probably be an option. Although I did just talk to Joey Baird from the Wisconsin Vegetable Gardener radio show on my podcast earlier, and he lives in Wisconsin and can grow okra. So he has figured out a way to do it. So my thought is maybe it's more possible in different places with a little bit of finagling than we realize. I don't know. I've never tried it, obviously.

Alright, so he's definitely challenging my idea that I can't grow it here then, huh?

His thing is, is that he's like, you're not going to grow the big old trees that we grow in the south, right? The ones that are taller than I am. He said they're, you know, about three or four foot. And the good thing about okra is they will start producing. Last year, for some reason, we had kind of a really cool and wet spring. My okra grew really slow at the beginning, but it still started producing when they were like 2 or 3ft tall. So if I've had that experience, I'm sure that maybe just understanding that you won't get a huge okra plant, maybe you could still get some kind of a harvest.

That's a great point. Yeah. I mean, I think you and I were talking about this earlier, but it's like this idea that plants actually want to fulfill their full life cycle. Right. And so for the okra, that is making the seed pod and so it's kind of fun. That's the thing that we want to eat. And so a plant, you know, an okra plant maybe, perhaps wherever it is growing, is really trying to get to that point for you because it wants to complete its life cycle while it's in the garden. So maybe I'll have to try it. Although I have to say I need more space. I've got my kitchen garden here. I only have 90 square feet. And okra is such a beast. Like, even at its. Like, even if it only grew to three or four feet, I think I might have to put it in a. I have a space. I'm going to try to set up in the back this summer, so maybe I'll test out a few okra and see what happens.

I'd love to hear that. And as you know, you know, okra is a tall plant, but you have to have a few to be able to have enough to have a dinner. Right. So it's not like you can grow one plant and have enough to make a side dish. So you'd have to grow a few. I would think.

Yes. I think I need 70. No, we've had that experience with a few clients where they wanted to grow it, you know, and they had maybe a small one raised bed or two raised beds, and they would text me, and they're like, nicole, I'm having trouble. I'm harvesting. I'm trying to stay on top of my plants, but I'm only harvesting, like, two okra at a time. So it's like, you know, what do you do with that? Just stick it in the fridge and pray that a few more come ripe, you know, quickly.

That is.

It's something to definitely consider. I think that most people don't realize we were talking about this yesterday with a couple of my garden coaches is that especially as we're first starting to garden, we usually don't. If we don't have experience in the garden, we don't have a good understanding of how much production you can get off of one plant. Right. And so we'll have clients who get one tomato plant. You know, they just want to get one tomato plant in their garden with the assumption that, like, they won't have to buy tomatoes at the grocery store that's that year, you know, or that season. And it's like, wow, we really, you know, it takes a while to start to kind of get a picture of how much production each plant gives you. And okra is definitely one of those cases where you might. What do you think? You might pick one or two pods off of a plant every few days.

I wonder how much of that is dependent on the weather as well, because in the height of our. In our summer season, I can get a couple of pods or maybe one to two a day, But I'm not sure if. If you would get that much if it's not in the 90s, for instance. So I wonder how much that's related. But I was gonna like, consider it something, especially if someone is space challenged, that okra is a really good plant. I don't do this regularly, but it's happened on accident. Is a good plant for pole beans to climb. So if you want to have, you know, two crops in the same space and then not have to build a trellis, that might be an option too.

Oh, that's so fun. It's a great idea. Okay, so we are going to close up with a food fight. I thought it would be so fun to compare okra to sweet potatoes. These are two plants that you can grow in the hot season. So according to the gardenary chart, we term the hot season when the average temperatures are over 85 degrees. So I thought, okay, let's talk about okra versus sweet potatoes. They both take up a good bit of space in the garden, grow around the same time. So I'm gonna fight for sweet potatoes and I thought you could fight for okra. What do you say?

Sounds good.

Okay, so let's start out. This is such a dumb thing, I think, to talk about with vegetables, but it's just kind of fun. So let's talk about how much calories. We're gonna talk about 100 grams of each vegetable. So I'll start out with mine. The sweet potato has a whopping 86 calories per 100 grams of sweet potato. How about the okra?

The okra only has 33. Oh.

So if you're trying to watch your. If you want 50 less calories, then you should go for the okra. I think that makes sense, right? I mean, sweet potatoes. Yeah.

And it depends on if you're growing food for calories or not. Because if, I mean, sweet potato might win if you really need to get some caloric density from your food.

There you go. And if you're trying to live out of the garden and actually feel full, then sweet potato might be your girl. Okay, how about carbs? What do you got for carbs?

Okra only has seven and a half.

Carbs per serving, so I'm thinking that's a very good. Like if you want a low carb diet, you're going to beat me because I've got 20 grams for 100 grams. So that's a little bit too much carbs. How about fiber? We know. I'm guessing okra might have a little bit of fiber, especially if you harvest it too late.

Yeah, no kidding. It's almost 4 grams, so 3.8 grams fiber.

Okay. And sweet potatoes are 3 grams. So actually that's kind of a Tie. So so far okra is winning on the calorie and carb count. If you're trying to go low on those and sweet potatoes are not doing as well. How about for protein, 2 grams first?

Okra.

Wow. Okay. Protein for okra is 1.6 grams. So that's pretty much a tie too, right? Okay, so so far it seems like sweet potatoes are winning because everything else was a tie. How about for. Let's look at vitamins? So good things for your body. How about for vitamin C? What's the ochre count for that?

Vitamin C is 21.1 microgram. Is that what that is or is it milligram?

I don't know. We'll just call it mg. Whatever it is.

I think it's milligram.

It's something small. Ok, so guys, the vitamin C for a sweet potato is only 2.4 milligrams.

That's surprising.

That is so surprising. Are you surprised?

I am. Especially because when I think of sweet potato and I think of orange, I guess I think of vitamin C, but that's probably a different nutrient.

Now I had the same thought. Like, I'm thinking this is like an orange, like, you know, like a juicy orange. So okra is 10 times the amount of vitamin C as sweet potatoes. That's amazing. Okay, let's see something else. How about vitamin E?

Vitamin E is 0.36 milligrams. Yeah.

So pretty small. Vitamin E is pretty small for. For sweet potatoes too. Just 0.26. All right, let's do something that's more.

Vitamin K. 53 milligrams.

Oh, my gosh. See, okra is just shining today. Vitamin K for sweet potatoes is just 1.8. Here is something finally that might be in sweet potatoes favor. Beta carotene. Oh, my goodness. 8509 milligrams. And what do you got?

225.

Okay, finally I beat you at one thing.

Beta carotene.

It's about time. So, guys, if you want your beta carotene, the place to get it is from sweet potatoes. And if you want pretty much anything else, you're going to get it from okra. Let's finish up with two more. We'll do calcium. What do you have for calcium?

That's 81 milligrams.

81. And calcium for sweet potatoes is just 30 milligrams. And then we'll do. We'll finish up with magnesium.

57.

And I only have 25.

Wow.

I think we have a winner here. What do you think?

I had never Realized how nutrient dense okra was.

Me either. And I'm just kind of sad because I love sweet potatoes so much, but I might have to start eating more okra.

Yeah.

That means that I'm going to need yours because yours sounds so much better than the stuff from the grocery store that's so fun to see. So, sweet potatoes, I guess, basically, if you're wanting to, like you said, get more calories or get more carbs, then sweet potatoes are going to be your thing. But if you're looking for probably at the same, I think basically you could say out of the same space. Right. Because sweet potatoes take up a good bit of space, but so does okra. That you could actually get a ton of vitamins out of your okra plants.

Yeah. And from growing both of them side by side last year, I would say the sweet potatoes probably took up a little bit more space. But I wonder if you are trying to conserve space, if you could plant them both in the same area since okra grows so tall and sweet potatoes sprawl on the ground.

Yeah, I was thinking that too. Like, you could almost have a tier right where you have okra down the center of the bed. Then you could have sweet potatoes kind of on each side. I think sweet potatoes are so lovely. In Houston Gardens, a lot of our clients travel, or they have in past summers, travel during the summer. And so we plant the beds a lot with sweet potatoes because it's such a great ground cover and preserves, you know, the water and the soil. And then they can come back, say, in the fall when things are cooled down and harvest, which is super cool. But I like this idea of maybe having beds full of okra and sweet potatoes together and those.

I mean, I don't know about you, but when I grew sweet potatoes last year, those flowers were gorgeous. So you marry those okra flowers with those sweet potato potato flowers and you've got yourself a vegetable flower garden right there.

I think so. It sounds so pretty and it's definitely, if you're listening and you're in a warmer climate, these are two super fun, great ways. Now, the okra, you're going to have to pick a lot. But besides picking, wouldn't you say it's a pretty low maintenance plant?

Yes, absolutely. I think the picking is the biggest thing. And especially if you're going on vacation, you probably need to have someone pick it for you. So that's definitely, I would say, the biggest consideration.

Yeah. So I kind of like plants that the biggest maintenance piece is picking. If you're Going to tax me, then tax me on harvesting. You know, that's a good problem to have. Well, so fun. I have loved learning about okra from you. I have to say, mad respect for 70 okra plants every summer. That is amazing. And I would love for the Grow Yourself listeners to get to know more about you. Could you tell them where to find you about your amazing book and other things you're up to?

Sure, yeah. They can find me at the Beginner's Garden podcast. We're in our fourth season. And then I did just release a book called Vegetable Gardening for Beginners in April. I wrote it last October, but I had no idea that so many people would be gardening this year. So hopefully it will help other people garden maybe for the first time.

Yeah. So great. So I love following Jill and her work, and I was just telling her I think everyone should get our books together so they can learn garden design and the setup of a raised bed in my book Kitchen Garden Revival, and then really dig into the specifics of the plants from Jill, because she and I kind of speak the same language in terms of, like, you know, talking to real people with real people talk. No, like, no, like, special horticultural terms. We're just trying to help you learn to grow a little bit of your own food. So super fun. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Jill, and teaching us all the things about okra. I, for one, learned a ton, and you've challenged me to maybe possibly test out trying to grow some okra even up here in the Chicago area. And I can't wait to see the okra you're pulling from your garden this summer.

Thank you. I appreciate it. And if you do try it this year, I would love to see how it goes.

Okay. And if you ever make coffee from okra, please send me some.

I'll send you some.

Sounds good. Thanks so much for listening, guys, to the Grow youw Self podcast. I will see you next week.

The. Outside. Let it all make all. The.