Gary Shapiro (President of the CTA) talks China, France and the 'BFF approach' to trade

We expect a strong turnout of French entrepreneurs and French government officials at CES in Las Vegas because that allows them to make the contacts, the relationships, get the investments so that they could become global companies.

Welcome to Tech Talks, the podcast brought to you by Nash Squared and hosted by myself, David Savage, that's been bringing you the latest thinking from technology leaders for over 8 years. On today's On today's show, we're talking to Gary Shapiro. He is the CEO and president of the Consumer Technology Association, better known to many people as the company behind CES, which happens in Vegas every January. But before that, hi Rakesh.

Hello.

How was your weekend?

Uh, yeah, it was very good actually. I spent, uh, spent it quite ill. Um, oh, some of it on the sofa. Watched some of it in bed. Um, but yeah.

Oh no, I'm sorry, I'm sorry to hear that.

Yeah, that's fine.

Have you watched the new Beckham documentary?

That's exactly what I did. Yeah, literally, I'm not gonna kid you, uh, that was all of my Saturday. And then Sunday I watched sport all day on various bits of consumer technology.

There's a theme, there's a theme.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I did Um, yeah, yeah.

But you know what Beckham did and did, did to great success?

Uh, what was that? Make a documentary or get married?

He went to America. Going to America.

He did go to America. He did go to America. Yeah.

And that's what we're doing with the podcast. We're going to America because we're talking to Gary Shapiro from the, from the CTA. Um, Consumer Technology Association of America. CES is massive. 130,000 people in Vegas every January.

Yeah, you're one of them, aren't you?

We don't know that yet. Oh, it might be.

You have been in the past though?

No, never been to CES.

Oh, you've never been to CES? Oh, Gary, that's a point of contention. Oh, is it? Oh, okay. Sorry, uh, Gary, get us an invite. Do something. Help us.

Let's play the interview. So I'm joined by Gary Shapiro. Gary, you're the president and CEO of the Consumer Technology Association. We tried this last week and unfortunately due to technical difficulties we weren't able to share the interview, so I am very grateful that you have taken the time to sit down again and have another conversation with me.

You know, first of all, I enjoyed the first interview, David, and second of all, uh, I've been in your position and I know how bad it feels. It's like when you— when I've written something and all of a sudden it's erased on my computer, it's like you'll never get that time back, you know, and it'll never be as brilliant as the first time.

No, and I have to say, I, I had brought my own microphones I didn't use my own microphones because obviously we had the studio set up there and I felt awful messaging the event to say, I'm afraid it hasn't worked. So they have been fantastic at helping to get this back in the diary. And let's hope that we can capture some of the essence, at least, of when we were sat together in Paris.

Well, the irony is I thought it went so well that we came back and had a meeting about things we could do better. I said, why don't we have one of those great places?

You should, you should. I understand every other interview didn't have the technical issues. So don't let that put you off. It was a fantastic way.

And I'm glad to hear for a second there, I thought everyone did. You're doing everything over again, which case I'd really feel bad for you.

Look, we mentioned that the Consumer Technology Association, before we get into anything else, some of our audience won't be familiar with the CTA. Who are the CTA?

The Consumer Technology Association is a nonprofit, non-governmental organization that is based in the Washington, D.C. area and represents the interests of the consumer technology industry for US and Canada, in Washington and in Canada. But we also are best known for owning and producing the world's coolest, funnest, largest, most exciting technology event or business event of any kind. It's the CES held each January in Las Vegas.

Which, as I admitted to you last time, I haven't been to. But I know many people who have and do say exactly the same. So whilst obviously you're going to say CES is good, I have heard from external parties that CES is very, very good. So it's maybe one to check off the bucket list for those of us who haven't been in the industry.

Well, you should get it on your bucket list and pay penance for having me do this interview again. That's your— that's what you must do is travel to Las Vegas, which is You know, honestly, the, the reason I'm sitting in this chair and I got this job from being an outside consultant to the organization is I attended my first CES, and I found it just so exciting to see these companies put their best foot forward on a worldwide basis to show what they felt their company was about. Not a retailer or someone else showing it, but the companies themselves showing it to the retailers, the investment community, potential partners, and especially media like yourself, and introducing new products. The phenomenon that's even more lately is doing business with each other, teaming up, which innovation requires. There's nothing else like it in the world, and grateful CEOs thank me for allowing them the efficiency of doing business in 4 days, which would take them several months. So the average CES attendee has about 29 meetings, so it's an extraordinarily efficient way of doing business.

That is something that I'm sure we'll come back to a little bit later in this conversation. Look, we were in Paris for the French Digital Day. You're soon going to be on the ground in Amsterdam, and I understand that there is an announcement that is pretty much hot off the press from the CTA. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about what you've been up to?

Well, sure. We have so much going on in Washington and with the CES. The big CES announcement was just on Monday, October 2nd, and it was that we are getting the CEO of one of the world's largest companies, if not the largest company, by some measures, CEO of Walmart, Doug McMillon, will be one of our keynote speakers at CES, and he doesn't often speak, and he'll be talking about his vision for continued retail disruption. You know, he's not been a frequent public speaker, so this is very exciting for us, and their vision of technology and really what they do drives a lot of the vendors community. They're very focused on the environment, and they've certainly been the major force, at least in the United States, in terms of cutting down on packaging They've done a lot of things in the green area, and I'm looking forward to hear what he has to say. The announcement we're making in Washington today, which is Tuesday, October 3rd, is that we are— we'll be announcing in a couple hours on Capitol Hill that we've done a report with the global consulting firm of Kearney, and it's focused on what we should do for supply chains that were so disrupted by COVID that it shook up a lot of people. And given some of the splitting of the world into different segments and what's happened in China, they're saying— and there's talk about reshoring is the expression in the United States, and some politicians want everything made in the United States. And based on the work that Carny has done for us, we present a different type of proposal, which is that first of all, you have to go really slow because otherwise you just lose a lot of products that consumers rely on and love. But second of all, if you're going to do it, don't require everything to come to the U.S. Let's look to our friends in Europe. In Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, and South Korea, Vietnam even, and India where we have agreements. And let's, let's do this in a rational way for the major segments we're talking about, which are semiconductors, audio, video, telecommunications, and IT products. And let's, let's go what we call the BFF approach, best friends forever. And let's have trade agreements with these countries. Let's figure out what each country is really good at and do it in a way which everybody wins so that we're not so heavily reliant on China China, which is about 40% of the manufacturing of these products right now.

You, you talk there a little bit about your keynote. You also talk a little bit there about trade and not being so heavily reliant on, on one particular country. And there you're touching on a number of different themes. I mean, you talked initially about commerce, e-commerce, and then you, you touched very briefly on the environment. Look, I've spoken to Brian, your colleague, about the themes that you're keeping an eye on of which those are some, but there are many that are influenced by the environment in which we work. A great example of that is human security, something that you were present at the UN to talk about with leaders just a matter of weeks ago. Could you just explain what the concept of human security is and how you make that a reality rather than just an aspiration that we do talk about at these great gatherings?

Sure. The United Nations, through one of its bodies, along with the World Academy of Art and Science, has come up with 6 human securities or rights, and they are focused on things that you would expect: the right to clean air and water, the right to healthcare, the right to food, the right to community. And basically, we promoted those at the CES 2023. And gave them the visibility they deserved. And companies like John Deere talked about how they make, you know, make food for the world in a more efficient way, focused on technology and others. But the UN, in its wisdom, actually, I was pleased to announce with them a new human security focused on technology. Basically, access to technology is something that's become so important for human beings that now the UN is recognizing it as a human security or right. And that's something that I was just thrilled to do in the middle of September and then run over to France and talk about it there. And I'll be talking about it in Netherlands next week.

What are the barriers to people having access to technology? Because, you know, again, when I was talking to Brian, he was talking about the fact that there's going to be a billion extra people online within the next decade, I think it is. That in itself presents huge challenges, I suppose, where you've got emerging economies, developing nations, people coming online for the first time. Are you concerned about the rapid expansion of that technology, or do you just see the upside?

I certainly see the upside. I don't view it as a challenge, I view it as an opportunity. You know, most of the world is connected now, but you want to keep going so you get everyone connected, and that requires broadband access, requires a certain level of sophistication so you could operate the devices and afford the devices. And what's happened is I think for the most part, you know, government and industry have played important roles in getting to where we are today and they'll continue to play that. So the, you know, the government sets the rules of the game. They help ensure that there's some access by everyone. That's a particular focus in the United States right now. There's a lot of investment in broadband and wireless. an industry comes along and they compete with each other to get the lowest price possible. Sometimes government— and it depends upon the government— will wish to subsidize that to get that to people, or sometimes they'll set up parameters where it's required. And there's also— we're not saying how it should be done. We're just recognizing the fact that to be a participant in a lot of the human endeavor and have access to information and education and healthcare information and even entertainment You have to have technology to get you there. And what the reality is, is that some of the— I wouldn't say the poorest people in the world, but people that don't have a lot of money do have a smartphone today, and they have access to the riches that even the wealthiest people in the world couldn't get just a generation ago.

I think what we're alluding to there is this dramatic increase in change that's happening all the time, and you there, talk eloquently about government and industry coming together and working together. An area where regulation is going to play a key role is AI. Now, whilst the, the potential benefits to consumers are obviously exciting, on French Digital Day, you stated that government action cannot limit ideas and innovation. I just wondered, who do you think comes up with the guardrails for tech such as this?

And I know that you've just talked about that symbiotic relationship between government and industry, but I just wanted to dive into it a bit more Well, I don't recall saying precisely what you just said, but there is a, there's a balance between encouraging innovation and government addressing every one of its fears, whether it's protecting privacy or, you know, restricting cybersecurity invasions or concerns about what can be created that is intellectual property, arguably intellectual property theft, or even things which have fundamental other security things like shutting down your utilities or doing some really bad things. And those are balancing tests between all those. I mean, you know, on the one hand, you could say we're just not gonna allow artificial intelligence, and I think that's silly because you would be breaking the opportunity to reduce a lot of human suffering. You know, healthcare is something which is still in the beginning stages of what we know works and what doesn't work. And although longevity, human longevity has increased, Specific treatments for a whole bunch of diseases are just not there yet, but we will discover them using artificial intelligence. Same thing with creativity. I mean, human creativity is wonderful. Will AI ever get there? Probably not, but already they're being used by major newscasters and others just to create headlines and give a diverse choice of headlines to help them, in a sense, market themselves. And that's something that they're— I mean, you know, the current news of the day is whether someone could have their likeness or is it a deepfake using them. Someone like Tom Hanks.

Only yesterday, yeah.

Doing dental commercials, you know, it's— and of course it's rational to create new causes of actions or crimes and say these are the things you can't do. But at the same end, you have to— not only must you allow innovation to occur, but you can't create a system which only the biggest companies can afford to do the artificial intelligence testing, especially the generative AI. And, you know, part of that is the creation, as is being done in Europe and eventually in the US, will be sandboxes where you can experiment. Basically a closed area where you could try out your AI. But sometimes the things like, so there are limits. If you're saying you have to have a sample size of 100,000 data before you can go forward, and you have to have all these different requirements, that becomes more of a barrier to new company entry. So there's balancing tests. So I definitely do not believe government does not play a role. I think government plays a critical role of defining the guardrails. First, so companies know it's legal, but second, so that they encourage innovation innovation, not just by the biggest companies, but by the smallest with ideas. But you have to protect the public as well from serious harm. And there's economic harm and there's harm which is physical and life-threatening harm. And I think you have to go after the, the most serious harms in a way that's very meaningful.

One country that certainly has those datasets is China. You mentioned China just a few minutes ago, and it came up several times on the day when we met. Especially the fact that the West cannot compete with those data sets, perhaps. It's a country that's at the vanguard of adoption of technology, certainly when you look at electric vehicles, for example. You've also talked just a few minutes ago about the fact that we can't just rely on China. I think, and again, if I'm misquoting at all, then correct me, but you, you, you said that we needed to work with our friends on FTD Day. How do you balance that mission with the ideal of one— of tech for one world, rather, which is one of the slogans that was, that was very clearly visible on the day?

Well, certainly China has some strategic advantages in terms of the size of their population, the ability of their government to focus on something and get it done. Example, infrastructure, but certainly in innovation. And you're right, with electric cars and some other areas, they, they're doing a good job. And they also have less of an emphasis on privacy than we do in the West. And that's— the individual is less important than the good of the state. So they have, you know, multi-million or even billion data sets involving people where privacy is not an issue. And we have to recognize that that's a different choice they've chosen. But the other choice they've chosen, which is related to that, is they have such a lack of focus on human rights and banning freedoms that we take for granted, whether it's freedom of the press or to express your opinion or to marry who you want or to express your religion or to your government. These are real things where there's fundamental differences and they're going in a direction which is more and more against the individual and more repressive in a way that's just unacceptable to us in the West. So that's what led in a sense to the concept that we have to work as those that believe in these ideals of the individual, the countries that do that together, whether it's Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the US, many South American, Central American countries, And others. So that has led to this study we did, which we're announcing with Kearney, about why we have to deal with our friends. But we have to recognize that China is not going away. And I think, you know, we have to come to some more stable environment where we could do business together, we could visit each other's countries, and we could exchange views. But we have to recognize that, you know, they're expansionist. What they're doing militarily, how they're moving against Taiwan, taking over bigger parts of the ocean and declaring it their own. It's going to be a difficult relationship to manage for decades to come. And no one, at least that I'm aware of in the Western world, wants to see all-out war break out. But at the same time, we have to be able to coexist and recognize and preserve the values that we care about. And the values that we care about, the way I interpret them, are those democratic values which respect the individual.

Changing tack then for the last couple of minutes. You espoused the benefits of CES early on in this conversation. Did you say that what, the exhibitors have on average 29 meetings? Did I hear that right?

The average attendee to CES has about 29 meetings. And that would take them several months traveling around the world. Because look, Las Vegas in early January is where the world of innovation comes together. It's where business is done. We have several thousand reporters like yourself. There's investors of all types from, you know, angel investors to the biggest investment companies from around the world. We have CEOs and those folks in innovation looking for partnerships, and often it's exhibitors with each other. And we also have a startup community because we believe in that, the importance of startups, so much that we subsidize what they do. There'll be over 1,000 startups in Eureka Park. And there'll be several categories that come together in one because there's so much synergies between them. It's one of the largest auto shows in the world now. It's focused on not only autos, but mobility of different types, including air mobility, ocean mobility, but also there's so much— and obviously scooters and electric vehicles and self-driving vehicles. But there's many areas like that in health technology. There's so much happening now because there's a shortage of doctors and nurses globally that there's devices are starting to help and they're gathering information which should be very helpful in treatment and keeping people from returning to hospitals. And then there's audio and video and content creation. That's a big chief marketing officer our event called C Space. We have a lot going on there.

Yeah, look, you perhaps in part have already answered this then, but one of the questions that people often ask me, and I'm lucky to go to a number of different conferences, is, well, what conferences are you going to? Why are you going to those conferences? And particularly for the startups, why is it that you think they are best placed coming to CES? Because it's, it's a big expense. You're a, you're a, you're a young company perhaps with limited resources. Yes, there's Eureka Park, but what is it about that community that you think really benefits them?

Well, nowhere else in the world can you be exposed to 130,000 people from the industry globally, including media, as opposed to, you know, there's a lot— we don't allow consumers in, although everyone's a consumer. You have to have a legitimate business interest, and we do check. And that's nowhere else is as efficient in terms of getting business. And for a startup especially, actually, you get in 4 days the ability— you'll walk out of there with a different business model and different ideas about what your service or product will be. Now, is it a great place to go if you're doing, you know, biologics? Or you're a swimming instructor, or you're there for yoga or something like that. No, I mean, there's startups in all sorts of categories that just don't belong there, and we wouldn't accept there, and it's a waste of time, or if you're an investor, knows to go. But if you want to be exposed to innovation in the technology world, and meet the small and big people all in one location in Las Vegas, and you will save 3 or 4 or 5 months of work and you'll be inspired. I mean, the journalists that come there get story ideas B-roll and everything else for 6 months, and they get context. And what's changed in our world that's COVID, because of COVID is, you know, the show was great before COVID but now it's become more important at the CEO level, especially the largest companies, because they realize how important the face-to-face experience is, not only to strengthen the relationships they have with their distribution network and others, but also to create new relationships. The value of serendipity, the value of the face-to-face, and even to get to know their own employees who are now interspersed not only around the world, but sometimes in and where they work from home very often. They don't know their employees, they don't have the relationships. So you go to these live events and they're more important now than they ever were. It's not just CES. I'd say any event that brings a community together. I think the bigger events have done much better because they're more efficient in terms of return on investment, but the smaller vertical events also get together communities as well. We are a big event with a lot of verticals that are related by the theme of innovation and technology.

Hmm. Look, whilst we're talking about startups, We were toasting French success in Paris. And I think even since we sat down just a week and a half ago or so, there's been even more news about the sector that's booming over there. What do you attribute that success? What are France doing right that other countries can learn from?

Well, that's my favorite question because France saw it early. And there was a young man named Emmanuel Macron who was a junior minister of the economy.

What happened to him?

And well, he contacted us when we were in Paris for a CS Unveiled Paris and asked if he could meet with a few of our executives. And I set up the meeting and met with him and we became fast friends. I talked him to come the next day to actually see a lot of the French startups. And he spent several hours at this event and it just energized him. He saw the future of France then. And I don't know if it's true, but in my fantasy world, I imagine that La Marche, the name of the party of Ford, was inspired in part by what he saw in the future. At that event, and then he came to Las Vegas for CES. And he— there were so many French companies that started coming with him and others, and French media and media from around the world. And all of a sudden, the media around the world recognized that France had this incredible collection of being so entrepreneurial and innovative with a 5 cents focus, plus with the French engineering capabilities and creativity, that France had so many different things. And, you know, I think France has gone from one unicorn now to It's in the mid-20s depending on the day and the valuation of the company. But France is on a roll and they're doing a great job. And I think it's obviously, you know, hundreds of years of French culture and the educational system, but it also took leadership. And now a lot of the companies, the countries in the world look at France and they say, that's our role model. That's what we want to do at CES. And that's something that Emmanuel Macron did. And we expect a strong turnout of French entrepreneurs. And French government officials at CES in Las Vegas, because that allows them to make the contacts, the relationships, get the investments so they could become global companies.

So a lot of people are looking towards France.

And we have a first-ever French keynoter, I might add. The CEO of L'Oréal is our keynoter at CES, opening keynoter.

Amazing. Hopefully they'll speak in English.

I hope so, but we could deal with it if they don't.

Look, joking aside, I'm— look, you, you're a leader. I think you've got 307,000 followers on LinkedIn. A lot of people look to you in terms of the themes of the industry and where we're heading. But what questions do you have? Because no matter how long we've been in this industry, it's changing so fast that it's sometimes, you know, it can be bewildering at times, our industry. So what fascinates you?

Well, what fascinates me is the ability of this industry to solve fundamental human problems. And we see that in so many different ways because there's a lot of people around the world suffering, a lot of people that could lead healthier, better lives if we could just, you know, take the data sets we have and correlate them with the treatments that people are getting and discover new drugs and new treatments and use the information that's out there that's really not being gathered. In the United States, that was the promise of Obamacare and electronic medical records, but it really hasn't happened for a range of reasons. But now with devices that can monitor you and gather the information in a way that protects your privacy but allows you to figure out— allows us to figure it out. We're going to solve a lot of big problems, whether it's language differences between, you know, obviously cultures and countries, or even figuring out what our dogs are saying to each other. You know, artificial intelligence generative has so much promise to it in so many ways, and it'll obviously make us more efficient. It'll change the nature of jobs and the nature of work so people A lot of the work that's been done, which is the history of innovation, especially in the last 200 years, is that the job nature has changed dramatically. We're going to self-driving. We'll be cutting down on a million accidents that kill people, a million people killed each year in vehicle accidents. We're going to cut down on that. There's so many opportunities to do it right. My fear is really centered on, you know, I want to do my job real well so government doesn't get it wrong. And that's the important thing that we do in Washington and we do with our colleagues around the world is we try to make sure government gets it right because there is the natural— it's like carpenters with hammers, everything looks like a nail to them, or surgeons, you know, they cut. Legislators and regulators regulate and legislate, and they want to regulate and legislate everything they see, and that's, in the world of innovation, that's potentially very dangerous. That and frankly protecting the status quo. My whole career has been spent fighting those trying to stop technology and innovation, whether it was to kill the VCR or kill audio recording or stop the internet or do all these things which would have been horrible. In retrospect. And, you know, for the most part, we've succeeded, and I want to keep succeeding.

Look, it's been a pleasure to speak to you today. Thank you for your time in Paris. Thanks for your time today, and I hope you have a good, exciting, and interesting time in Amsterdam.

And thank you, David. And if I could entice you to come to Las Vegas, I would be successful in my job.

Right, Akesh, um, loads in there for people to listen to. Makes reference to startups, makes reference to trade, lots of interesting points. Something else that I know is massively on the agenda at CES is green tech and sustainability. I posted a reel on Instagram over the weekend.

Was that the Tessa Clarke one?

Yeah, have you seen it?

Yeah, I have seen it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right, so In it, Tessa talks about the fact that the carbon emissions of 1 kilogram of food waste is the equivalent to 25,000 plastic bottles.

Yeah, frankly crazy, isn't it? Crazy. Yes, because I was looking at that thing, I can't remember what she called it, a food caddy or something. I was looking at, I was looking at it, I was like, you could probably only fit about 3 bottles of water in there. So think of the amount of food that you can put in there.

25,000.

25,000. And then, weirdly enough, I don't know if, I don't know if Tessa will be pleased or anyone. Weirdly enough, I did make a trip to the local ASDA and actually went and bought a crate of water, like 6 bottles. Um, as I say, a crate, like a pack of water bottles, and You know where on the big pallet they've got them all lined up? I was trying to like play a game with myself. I was, weirdly enough, I had watched your video earlier in the day and I was like, oh, I wonder how many bottles are on this pallet. It weren't 25,000 and there were loads. So I was a bit like, wow, that's, that is crazy.

Now something, it's something that I want to just draw attention to because I, I think this, I don't know whether we're going to handle this particularly correctly or sensibly.

Yeah.

It's the first time I've ever really got trolled. Did you actually? Why don't you very quickly, have you got your phone on you?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have.

Hold on. Open your phone, Akish, and go have a look at some of the comments on that video.

Okay, hang on. Oh God. Some people are really, yeah, I mean, some people are wanting to send her back to elementary school. Where, uh, you know, yeah, I don't actually think it's from America, but you know, um, wow. I mean, you really rubbed people up the wrong way this weekend, didn't you, Dave? Wow.

Um, but you know what, I was thinking about it and it's not a sensationalized video. It's not controversial. It's not— it's literally is some science about how bad food waste is. And the amount of comments is just staggering from people who were quite angry.

Yeah, and also it's coming from someone that actually has developed a business to help counteract this. It's not just someone— no offense to her, but it's not just an idiot who's, you know, we've just filmed someone walking around their kitchen and holding up a food caddy and go, uh, this is how much that's wasting. It's like, no, she's actually got some science and models behind it. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. And, and by, by a business that has been profiled by the United Nations, no less, as a beacon for humanity.

Yeah, well, you don't want to put that in the comments because that'll open up another— that'll spark another—

look, I'm not, I'm not going to engage with the trolling. I just think it's fascinating. Like, this is the dark side of social, correct? And I also think it's worth drawing attention to and to say no. I'm sorry if you, if you are someone who would see this and troll, we're going to do more of it because I think this is exactly the kind of thing that we need to be putting out there.

Exactly.

Um, and the world is, is on a knife edge in lots of regards and we need to put content out there that pushes back.

Correct. Correct.

That misinformation. And yeah, I just thought, I just thought that I'd flag it and, uh, see what your reaction was.

Yeah.

Live on the pod.

Yeah. No. And I'm sure I'm still scrolling from now. I'm still reading it. It's just, yeah, well, man.

Anyway, if you think that, you know, climate change is important and food waste is a problem and sustainability is good, why don't you go on and write some positive comments? Like it and share it because it's a message that we should get out there. And if you go to CES, I'm sure that you will find many great companies like Oleo that do deserve plenty plenty of platform and plenty of attention because they are doing wonderful stuff and we can't let negative voices drown it out. It's really important that we stand up for people doing positive stuff right now. Um, anyway, we'll be back on Thursday. We're going to be talking to Brian Komsky, who's actually one of Gary's colleagues at the CTA. It's kind of a whole week diving into the CTA tech trends and CES, whereas Gary has been talking very much about, um, China, about the direction of the industry as a whole. Brian is going to be delving down into the actual themes of tech and what's going on with regards to a bit about sustainability, a bit about AI, and also about the increasing numbers of people online. So that's well worth listening to. But Akish, thank you for your time.

Thank you.