American University (DC) & Immaculata College (PA): Financial Health & Viability Review

It is Tuesday, September 9th, 2025. Welcome back to the College Financial Health Show with Matt Hendricks and Gary Stocker, where each week we look in detail at the financial health and even viability of private colleges throughout the United States. And, and Dr. Matt Hendricks, This has been the time of year when colleges announce with great fanfare either modest or really highly spun news about their enrollment. Let's make sure we talk about enrollment, and at best, Dr. Hendricks, it's a secondary indicator. Who do you have for us today?

Yeah, today you'll see actually a good case today of that where enrollment numbers don't tell the whole story about the financials and the health of a school. In fact, can be quite misleading. Uh, there's an interesting case today I'll show you, but, um, and the case I'll show you is with Immaculata, uh, University in Pennsylvania, and then the other school is American University. Kind of like last couple weeks, we've had one that's struggling financially, the other one is doing just fine, actually doing quite well. Um, and I think you'll, you'll see where I'm coming from. Immaculata, uh, struggling a bit financially and American is massive and doing well. And I'll go through all the key financials and some of the, the, maybe some opportunities that they may not have considered that we can see in the data for policy changes and stuff like that. Uh, so like, like usual, I'm going to go to the Advanced Compass and I'm going to put the two schools up again at the same time. It's just efficient to talk about them that way. Um, I'll show you how to do that again just by refreshing here and I'm going to do the Immaculata in the first setting. That's the blue line, always blue, and green will be American. This is American University in DC, really big school. All right, so first, uh, as far as financial health goes, blue is not doing so hot financially on the net income margin. There's a bunch of financial metrics I'm going to show you, and it's really— I think almost every metric American's doing quite well. Immaculata, not so much. So why am I saying Immaculata is not great here? You have big losses here on net income for many years, 2 years in a row. It looks like really negative every year except for during COVID relief is what happened. And so that's far less than ideal, of course. So they're— that's going to show up on their balance sheet by a reduction in net assets and other issues. Or unrestricted net assets are not going to grow very well. Um, but I don't think they have cash flow issues. But you know, this, this stuff accumulates over time. They're not going to be able to invest in buildings and stuff like that. You're going to see that. On the other hand, American looks good, although we have two negative values here. They're just tiny. Um, and they had many years of positive, including almost 10% positive net income margin in 2022. So they are doing just fine.

And they were in the news in the last couple months that they were cutting back some stuff at American University because of—

yeah, That's what a great university would do, right? They, they see these, they don't want to have negative net income, right? Even with this positive value, you just don't want these negative returns. And if 2025 is also negative, which they probably know at this, that number at this point, yeah, they're going to make cuts and fix it, right? That's what should be done.

Yeah.

So that's great. That's what a good school does that's run well. On the endowment side, you can start to see all these things are just going to point to one doing well and one not so well. So American Endowment endowment's up 85%, which is near the 75th percentile for endowment growth since 2016. And Baculata's endowment has grown about normally. But the thing to focus in on here is what's happened since 2021. Basically, they're, they're, they've gone negative since 2021. So the endowment is shrinking since 2021, which is not normal. A normal endowment is growing still since 2021. And so that's concerning. And why is that happening?

I know, I know. Yeah.

The main reason that happens is you just get some outsized—

oh, goodness.

And I— yeah, a little bit. I was a little bit curious if these numbers are right because, as you know, the AI is what I have pulling these numbers and I have a lot of cross-checks that happen after the AI pulls it. But these are not— these are correct. They took a 10% draw last year. A 33% draw the year before, 10% draw the year before. And that was clear, right? Even though the market's done really well, if you're drawing 10%, 30%, 10%, you're going to have negative in your portfolio. So that's what's happening here.

You can't do that for forever.

Yeah. And the really scary part is, despite these massive draws, they still had losses, right? So Good point. Immaculata's net income is probably far worse than what I just showed you. When you, when you adjust, which all the credit agencies will do and your bank will probably do, they'll adjust your net income to have a normal draw, not a 10% draw. A normal draw would be 5%, 4.5%. All right. So they'll adjust, they'll do what they call adjusted net income to calculate your, your risk. Right.

So that'd be a much lower number then from my—

yes, yes. And I do that on the strategic compass as well. I just did that for a client because yeah, they had losses, but there was actually much bigger losses than they were showing on their audit because they were drawing a lot on the endowment. So keep that in mind. Um, if you're a board member, you should always make sure that you adjust for a normal draw and then use that as your net income, adjusted net income, I'd call it. All right, let's take a look at revenue growth over time. So again, key metric here, what's happening with revenues. Let's take a look at operating revenues for both schools and how they've changed. By the way, in raw values, you can see American University has $700 million in revenues, unrestricted operating revenues, is a massive school. But I'm going to focus on percent change. American doing great. Their revenues, even though they're massive, their revenue has grown faster than much smaller schools even, which is Incredible. On the other hand, again, Immaculata, -20% operating revenue growth since 2016. Not good, right? The 25th percentile is about broken even, right? They're down 20%. So one of the worst in the country in terms of revenue growth. And then expenses, operating expenses right here. Again, I'll look at percent change. So American, you can see why they're getting deficits, right, Gary? Even though the revenue has grown a lot, their expenses have grown by 41%. And that wasn't how much their revenue had grown. So they're getting some deficits. Looks like spending is going a little fast, which is probably what you're seeing in the news. They're like, well, we got to pump the brakes a bit. Certainly not a school that has any financial problems. They just spent more than their revenue grew.

And there are many colleges that are getting ahead of the game, just not a big number.

Yeah. And so, um, a good thing about Immaculata, uh, you should give them some props here, is that even though, uh, remember, we see some schools where their revenue plunges and they just keep— yeah, they keep spending the same amount. Uh, that's not the case at Immaculata. They've been trying, it appears, although not, uh, not quite meeting what they need to do. They're down 15% on expenses. Remember, revenues are down 20%. Yeah, so, uh, you got to keep that in line, and they're falling behind there. Um, all right, so let's take a look at just overall, uh, value of the school. That's net assets, and these should be growing about in total and on, uh, unrestricted. American again looks great, up 52% on total net assets since 2016. And again, Immaculata, not great. Only up 8%. And that again is in the bottom 25% of all schools in the country. Look at unrestricted. It's really important, actually. This is probably by far the most important number on the balance sheet, in my opinion, because this is the actual value of the school. If you were to say, like, sell it, right? Um, it's like the school's net worth. All right. And so let's take a look at that. And again, Immaculata is not increasing their net worth at all. And, uh, looks great at American, up 46%. Okay, operating expenses, net assets unrestricted. Okay, so let's take a look at CapEx. And your bank will look at all this, right? Or your credit agency. Uh, the, the rating agency for Immaculata was Fitch, and I'll have some interesting— I mean, I just looked at their credit rating and it was a bit confusing because of what we just talked about at the open, but I'll get to that in a moment. Okay. So for Immaculata, again, remember, CapEx to depreciation ratio should be above 1 every year, or at least on aggregate should be above 1. And that doesn't appear to be the case for Immaculata. Almost every year below 1, only 1 year above 1. I think we have here actually 2 years out of 10, 2 years out of 9 above 1. Certainly, if you were to aggregate all that, they'd be below 1. American, they made some massive investments, it looks like, in early years here, 2016 to 2020-ish, and have since cut back. That's normal. But I think if you aggregated that again, it's going to be above 1. And the reason that is, is you can take a look at the property, plant, and equipment values at both of these schools. Again, ideally, the value of the property, the physical plant, all the equipment should be increasing over time. And that's the case at American, again, up 20% since 2016. Not the case at Immaculata. The place is deteriorating in terms of the value of the property and equipment on campus.

And there seems to be a post-pandemic downward trend, even for American, on PP&E.

Yeah, yeah, they probably just built a bunch of buildings back here like you saw in the CapEx, and then since then they haven't built— okay, new buildings. But it is concerning that this is decreasing. Uh, I, I— yeah, I'm not gonna lie about that. That looks concerning because it shouldn't decrease, especially with the AI boom that's happening. If you're going to keep up with that, you're going to need to buy a lot of servers and GPUs, and those things are not cheap. So your CapEx, if you're going to participate in that part of the economy, you're probably going to need to invest a lot in your computing technology.

And it's possible in the DC area they sold something also, and that could have contributed to a decrease in PPE.

Yeah, we're just looking at the aggregate. So yeah, this is a massive school too. I'd imagine they have assets all over the place, so there could be a lot going on there. Debt to revenue, I don't know if that's, uh, I'll show you just so you know that all of this stuff is on here. We have debt We can look at debt-to-revenue ratios. Both schools have a really high debt load relative to their revenues, but again, uh, one is far riskier than the other, and you're going to see that on the interest spend. Interest— so interest spend relative to operating revenues. Blue is Immaculata. So remember, they have really like same debt-to-income ratios, but, um, Immaculata pays a lot more in interest because they're just a riskier borrower, right?

Uh, probably a higher risk also.

Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean. They're paying a higher interest rate. Um, which goes back to what I was going to say about Fitch. Uh, let's take a look at— I'm going to transition now into looking at specifics on the revenue side. Start with net tuition revenue. All right, actually, let's do this. Let's look at the way Fitch did it. Let's do students first. So I believe the analyst at Fitch looked at this They looked at their enrollments. So when they're rating Immaculata, and I, I just read the report from 2024, and I was kind of, uh, uh, interested in the, the analysis that they gave. They focused on this, this series here, which actually looks pretty good, right?

Yeah.

Immaculata's revenues are not revenue, their enrollment, enrollment is up about 2% since 2016. So they put that in the report saying, hey, this school looks like they have moderately weak demand or something like that, or moderate demand, which you can't really tell what the demand— look, you need to know what price and quantity look like, right? To see a demand function, you need both, right? So here you're just seeing quantity. Let's take a look at price, right? Net tuition revenue. Net tuition revenue. Per student. All right. And here's where you can get a good look at the demand function, a bit more information about the demand function for Immaculata. Although their quantity is constant, their price appears to have fallen off the map. Students paid $17,000 on average in net tuition and fee expenses per student in 2016. In 2017 and 2024, it's $13,000. That's a huge drop. It's— I don't have the percent on here, but I did calculate it because I wanted to know what that was for you guys. It's a 23% drop in the average amount and the average net tuition paid by a student, right? And that's nominal. So in real terms, man, you're looking at like half— I don't know, just there's like double-digit inflation over this period, right?

Yeah.

So, the— what we definitely know is although their enrollment is flat, the students are paying far, far less than they used to pay 9 years ago. That means to me, unlike what Fitch put in the report, that the demand for the school is actually in freefall. Okay. That's not good. In fact, they're really close to the 25th percentile in terms of what a student's paying. To go to the school on average. So, yeah, this goes back to what we mentioned at the beginning. Enrollment numbers don't tell the whole story about the demand for the school or even the revenues, right? It's entirely possible that revenues will decline even though enrollments are up, and that's what's happening at this school.

And Matt, you've heard me, you've heard me say before that there are colleges that are giving away the store. To get students in the door. And that's exactly what's happening here. The tuition discounts at Immaculata have to be massive.

Yeah. And so I was curious, looking at Fitch's report, they didn't say anything about their net tuition revenue being down 22% since 2016. That's an incredibly poor performance on net tuition revenue. Again, that's below the 25th percentile. So 75% of schools in the country are doing better on net tuition revenue growth. So yeah, I was curious if you should check it out if you're interested in how these credit ratings are put together. If you're a credit agency, you should probably look into this, getting this dataset from me so that you don't.

And have you talked about the red line yet today?

Yeah, red line is the closed schools. I haven't talked about it today, but there's a set of schools up here that have already closed and I was just tracking so you can get a sense of what to avoid. And this is one of them, right? Tuition revenue is 30%. Over a similar period, that's flashing red problems there. So Immaculata on net tuition revenue, really interesting story. Enrollment's up. Net tuition revenue has cratered by 20, again, 22%. All right. So don't get fooled by enrollment numbers. Doesn't tell everything. All right. On the other hand, a really positive story with American, right? They're up 12% on net tuition revenue. And my bet is they've done both increases in price. Yes. People pay a lot to go to American, right? $31,000. Now they pay $36,000. And just put that in contrast. You can go to, you can get a degree at Immaculata for a third of the price on average. Um, all right, okay, so that was— that's, that's the extent of my notes for my preparation here. So let's go through the expense side and see what we have going on. So again, really clear, one's doing really well, others not, uh, doing so well. Let's see if we can find some stuff on the expense side for them to focus in on. I'm not going to focus too much on American. Obviously they have a little bit of a deficit right now, but they, they know what they're doing and they appear to have a handle on it. So we'll start with the just number of employees, a W-2 employee count and what that looks like relative to revenues. And no shock here. Again, big deficits at Immaculata. No shock that you're going to have higher than normal payroll, right? That's what we're seeing right here. A lot of employees. They're in the top, so they're in the top 25% of all schools in terms of number of W-2 employees they have relative to their revenue and relative to—

That's not a good indicator.

No. Yeah, you don't. That's clearly why they're not able to balance the budget, right? One of the problems. So yeah, you've got 4-year revenue. They should be paying. They should have a much, much smaller number of staff. Let's take a look at the top end here. Okay, so again, Americans can afford to do whatever they want on the staffing for the most part. I'm going to focus on the blue line. They're low actually on number of staff paid over $100K. So probably what's happening here is what this means with the previous graph was they have a lot of staff and it's typically lower paid staff. That they have a lot of. All right. So you're not looking at necessarily the top-end employees. You're looking at sort of the mid-range that could have a lot of extra folks working there. I'm going to do the same thing here. Let's take— wow.

Okay.

So they— this is from their 990 and it's got to be a bad day. Whoever filled out their 990 appears to have messed it up.

They skipped that field. Yeah.

Yeah, that's not good. Again, this goes to the IRS, so make sure that this is accurate. All right. I'm going to skip that one because it's kind of messed. Non-employee. Okay, that looks fine. Okay. This is your retirement contributions. It looks okay. Non-officer, other, other benefits looks okay. Okay. So what's emerging here is Yeah, payroll taxes are high. So I think what's happening is they just have a lot of staff, and it's not the staff that has really high benefits and high pay, it's the mid-level or low-level staff to look at. Um, and of course we can drill way, way down in a strategic compass, but this is all I can see from the 990s. Um, on the staffing side, I'm going to go into some of these other big expenses like advertising. Um, you know, Yeah, here's one. Immaculata. Wow, that's a really high advertising spend. And again, and it's not working. It should be working. It's not working, right? Uh, yeah, you— if it were working, you would be getting more money per student and keeping your enrollment constant, right? Remember, they're paying less. IT spend. Wow. Okay. IT spend is out of control. All right, go there immediately. That's a lot of money to be spending on IT. That's $3.6 million.

We're going to see that in the vendor table here in a minute, aren't we?

I bet. I bet we'll see a really big IT vendor here in a minute. Again, I didn't prep this. I don't know. They're spending $1,600 per student on IT. That's just to give you a sense. Remember, the students aren't paying very much to go here. So a lot of their money they're paying to the school is not going to the faculty. It's going to IT. All right. And marketing. Not a great way to run this place. Normal would be $700. Okay. Not $1,600. What are we at? $1,600. So IT, let's take a look at the vendors in a minute. Insurance. Okay. Looks normal. Occupancy costs. Okay, yeah, whoever's filling out the 990, that can't be right. Um, all right, office expenses. They probably put it in here instead of occupancy. Oh yeah, incorrect. But double-check this again. This number is really high. Could be just incorrect reporting. Fundraising expense, that looks okay. Travel conferences, fees for services. Let's take a look at this. Okay. They're high on vendor spends here as well, which wouldn't include the IT. That's in the other IT part. Food service.

Here's your favorite one.

Yeah. That's not my favorite. It's just one that's like irritating because it's a huge contract and there shouldn't be so much variation in it, to be honest. And there is. Yeah, this looks high. All right, we'll take a look. Looks like they just added a food service vendor recently and it's incredibly high. All right, near the 25th percentile or something. Top 75 or 75th percentile. All right, so we kind of have a sense of what we're going to see here in the contracts, but I didn't actually do that. Let's see the number of contracts first. Contractors paid over $100K. We do this a lot, right, Gary? So I'm going really fast, but if you're at one of these schools, feel free to reach out. This is really a standard thing we see at schools that are struggling financially. And here's another one, a ton of contracts over $100K. They have 26, which is very high for how big the school is. Again, Americans can do whatever they want, but Immaculata can't. All right, they're in the top 25% on both staffing and contractors, IT, advertising. These are big expense items that can't be too high, and they are. All right, they appear to be too high, at least. All right, let's take a look at what we can see with some of these contracts.

So Matt, while you sat at the vendor table, I just want to point something out, and you've teased a couple of times today that your preparation has been modest. Well, all right, we'll take your word for it. But what I want to point out to those watching this show is how quickly Matt can access the data and how quickly he can make the comparisons on the fly. Now, Matt, you don't know this, but I do this almost every day. I will get folks looking at a college and I jump on the Prospective Data Science, your Advanced Compass, and within minutes I give a 10-15 point assessment of a college using this data. So those of you looking at this video from whatever college you're at, the data that you're looking at here is, is yours to be able to compare your organization to some 1,200 other other private colleges the same way you see Matt doing it for just the two colleges we're looking at today. And he has referenced the Strategic Compass, which is another product. And if you're looking at— looking for data, reasonably economically inexpensive data, that Strategic Compass will drill down for you and compare your data across, I think, 15 or 16 different report areas. Use the data, don't use the data, but it's out there. And this is an example of what the proper use of technology technology and data can mean for organizations. Matt and I know more about colleges than almost anybody else in terms of their finances. You know why? Because we use his data, we use his apps, and we use my stuff as well.

Yeah, yeah. So just like we suspected, Gary, who do we find for two big contracts here? Both these contracts individually are high. They have two, two IT contracts over a million dollars. Uh, yeah, somebody needs to get to the bottom of what's happening there.

At least ask the question of what may be bad on those two white columns. Color is bad, right?

Yeah, color is bad. They're in the top, like over about a standard deviation high on each. Combined, they're probably well over two standard deviations above normal. Okay, so what happens here? Maybe, maybe they bought out of the illusion contract and then went into this new contract. Sure, but that's still high. I mean, if you're just going to go with this, you're going to roll with this one going forward, $1.3 billion is still way too high.

It was the same year.

Yeah, you see, so that's— yeah, that's not good. Um, all right, so on the food service contracts, remember they have a— they have a normal number of students, but they don't pay very much, right? So their, their food service contract's actually decent for how many students they have, but it's terrible for their revenue because remember this— so remember I just said what they pay, like $1,600 per student for IT.

Yeah.

And now we got $1,300 per student for dining, right? How much were the students paying again?

$13,000.

That much.

So, so it's about not quite a quarter of—

Yeah. I mean, really the auxiliary revenues where they're going to be paying for the, the dining, but you see the point, right? The, they just don't have a lot of money to be spending per student. and yet they're high on some of these items. Yeah, this, this was still high for a student last year's food service contract. Looks like they were able to get it down a bit, which is good, but it's still a bit high for where they need to be. But again, it's mostly because the school is normal size, but they don't pay that much. So that's a little bit trickier solution. It's more about make— asking the students to pay more. And if you're not going to do that, you got to cut down everything even below where we're benchmarking. All right. So another one to look at. This is kind of curious. This must be some kind of related group, Sisters of IHM Student Teaching. Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't know enough about this, but I would say all this is worth looking into. There's an $800,000 contract with EAB for marketing. Remember we said marketing was high.

It was high, yeah.

And it appears to be not working. All right. Has anybody checked this recently? Looks like it was the first year with them. Did they meet their targets? Is somebody following up? A really common thing to happen with these contracts is they set them up and then nobody bothers to check if it's worth the school's money for like years. So a bad contract can keep going on for years and nobody bothers to really check or hold the vendor accountable. Don't do that. Make sure you're checking this. And that's a lot to spend on EAB for anything. All right. So, yeah, check that. It's high for their revenue. Okay. I think that's it for this, Gary. We can look at— I'll just throw American in here just in case. But again, I'm not worried about American. They can cut a little bit out of their budget.

Yeah, they're doing fine. Fine.

This one is something to look at though. This, a lot, these, this contract notoriously didn't work out for schools. And they may be winding it down at the moment from 18 to 15 to 9. Yeah, they're probably winding it down. This is an online. Yeah, I think, yeah, so it's high and hopefully this is falling off.

And interestingly, it's high in 2024 when—

Oh, it's because it switched. Right. Because they called it an educational consultant before they called it online education. Oh, okay. Harmonizing before.

Interesting.

Interesting. But yeah, it'd be worth looking into this, double check. I did work with a really big school that had this contract and it was, it didn't work out for them. So I just know this from experience. So double check that. The rest looks fine. Compass. Okay. Yeah. I mean, they're, they're, this is such a big school. They can easily cut a little bit of money out of their budget anywhere without really affecting operations at all. All right, I'm gonna pass it back to you, Gary.

So we've had this conversation before, and not just to Makalata today, but we run into those colleges, Matt, where they're maybe trying to cut, trying to get expenses in balance with revenue, and they just aren't successful in doing it. And, and this culture of cutting has to at some point reach a level when, when faculty, staff, and even students say, I'm not taking any more of this. What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, I mean, my general thought is the— if you're going to cut stuff, you just have to be sure about it, and you got to be transparent about it. And if you're— I think if you're— if you have something like this to show your faculty, show your board, show alumni, show students— again, I've said it many times, reasonable people are going to say, yeah, okay, our Marketing spend looks really odd, right? So yeah, it makes sense. It's a reasonable policy change to cut that down, or we're going to cut back on IT spend. Yeah, you might not have 3G up and down. You might wait a little longer for a ticket to be filled, but we're going to balance the budget. And so these are the kinds of things that we're going to do. All right. And just being transparent about it that way, I think, is the way to get it done. And, you know, where it usually fails when schools really just have a terrible time of cutting costs is when the administration's not confident in what they're doing. They can't sell it to the stakeholders. It's just a disaster, right? Even if they're doing the right thing, if they're not confident and they're not selling it, not going to work.

And then you and I almost for every show, we bring up the CapEx to depreciation ratio. And of course, as you mentioned earlier, that shows how much a college is investing in its infrastructure. And I've made the case before that there's a connection, a potential connection, Matt, with a low CapEx-to-depreciation ratio and safety in a college. If you're not investing as a college in keeping the roofs up to date and cleaning up mold and all those kind of things associated with infrastructure, don't you run a more significant risk of a significant safety issue developing at those colleges?

Yeah, potentially, I'd imagine. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

And let me just take— Matt showed you his tools. We talked about the Advanced Compass, we talked about the Strategic Compass. Let's take a look at a couple other tools that are available for these two colleges. So let's take a look at the 2025 College Viability App, the Executive Analysis version. And I always start with graduation rates. And Matt, we have two colleges that are at least graduating students. And you talked about during your part of the show, Immaculata is struggling financially, but God bless them, Matt, they're still graduating students. Because we see too many times colleges in dire financial straits who can't graduate even half of their students in 4 years. So again, kudos is appropriate to Immaculata for graduating students. American University doing an even better job. They've got the financial resources to do that. I tracked— I was looking at that graduate enrollment for these 2 colleges, um, and, and because I— as we'll see here in a minute on the college majors completion look at the numbers for American. Their graduate enrollment is significant. Now it's down a little bit over the last few years, and not much— not as much so for Immaculata. But I thought that was intriguing, that American had more than 5,000 students and over 6,000 some of these years in the graduate programs. And then we talked about giving away the store, all right? And there are such things as funded institutional grants, the Matt Hendricks Economics Scholarship, right? And Matt's gonna give $10 million to the University of Tulsa to fund a student scholarship. That's funded. We can see in total that American only has— best spent theirs down, not much. And Immaculata, really not much more than couch change, college couch change, in terms of funded scholarships, right? The reason I show that is I want to bring up unfunded. This is called unfunded institutional grants, and this is essentially, for those watching the podcast, watching the show for the first time, This is merit aid, and this is most scholarships, not all scholarships. And we can see that American has gone from $109 million in 2016, up $78 million. Now again, they can afford to do that, they're— but they're discounting their tuition heavily to get students to enroll, and that's fine, they're welcome to do that. Immaculata, and this may be a reflection of their market position, they're down over $2 million. They've spent $13 million, almost $14 million in 2016 and down to $11 million and change in 2023. They've lowered the amount of discounts they have provided, and yet we still saw modest enrollment increases, if anything more flat than anything. But their tuition fee revenue still was not good at all. And then you know me, I like to do quality control on Matt's data, so this is the one time that I do this. And again, tuition and fee revenue— he knows I'm teaching— teasing. American University, their tuition fee revenue is up $62 million over the last 8 reported years. This is from the IPEDS data. The college itself reported it. And Immaculata is down $6.5 million. And again, Matt, you know, all businesses have down years, but you can't be losing a million dollars— not quite a million dollars a year in a business year after year after year and not expect negative consequences. And then we take a look at majors, and I've got this set up for the internal market share is the internal market share for both Immaculata and American University. And I've got just bachelor's degrees brought up. There are 32 majors included for these two colleges and almost 5,000 completions from 2020 through 2023. And we look at the high end first, and we can see some of the programs that are relatively strong at Immaculata, not particularly so. And we can see quite a few programs that are really strong at American. Again, neither of us is going to be surprised at that. They have strong finances, they have strong programs. And as always, we look at the low enrollment numbers And I added a story yesterday on the podcast, Matt, about Ohio and Utah being the most recent states to specify a minimum number of graduates in a given major, or those public universities have to cut those majors. Doesn't apply to private colleges, but that trend is really kicking in as we start the 2025-2026 school year. And again, I'll ask the rhetorical question: what is Immaculata doing in social work, in chemistry, in music, in finance, in marketing, they have no— next to no graduations. And, and there's a number out there, it's averaging 5 per year. That's on the low side. Some are 15 per year. And so even at 5 per year, you can see that the college, you know, the, the bachelor's offered at Immaculata, there are many they should consider stepping away from. And I understand, Matt, they each provide some tuition fee revenue, and we do the same thing for American. Again, that's a fair number of low-enrolled majors, and we've talked about this before at colleges. This is probably the year when colleges realize they cannot be everything to everybody, and we've seen it all summer long with cutbacks and layoffs. And Matt, we're going to continue to see that as the academic year progresses, especially probably this coming spring, this coming screen, this coming spring. And then finally, the new mycollegeviability.com website and our good friend Val— Viability Val. And I brought up these two colleges and we used some technology to assess the overall value of American University— good overall— and Macaulay University— favorable payoff on the degree. And then we look at a lot of individual factors. I'm bringing this up, Matt, just because it's a tool that's available. The free version is available and the paid version will be out soon, where students and families can compare the finances, the, the completion rates, all sorts of items for students in private colleges today and public colleges in the future. So Matt Hendricks, it's always comparisons, and we saw two distinct examples today. And as we release this video later today, I will tag the leaders at American University. I will tag the leaders at Immaculata College. And we get feedback. We get— we get— sometimes we get follow-ups from those kind of items. But it's, it's a new era. I know that's trite. It's a new era in higher education. And the debt and the data that Matt Hendricks provides, the data available through his Advanced Compass and through a Strategic Compass, the iPads comparisons I provide for almost 3,000 public and private 2- and 4-year colleges are tools that we encourage you to take a look at. If you want demos, private demos for any of them, I'll have my contact information in the show notes. Feel free to drop me a note and we'll schedule up a Zoom demo to go over those applications that interest you. So Matt, how do you want to wrap this one up?

We're offering insights in the data that even Fitch doesn't have, right? I mean, literally, they have to hand-collect this stuff and they still don't— they won't have the level of detail that we have. So, uh, yeah, take advantage of this. It's sort of a revolution happening, uh, in the sort of transparency in higher ed, and, uh, we're going to keep pushing.

Amen. So for Dr. Matt Hendricks, I'm Gary Stocker. Thanks as always for making time to watch the show. We'll be back next Tuesday with two more colleges on the College Financial Health Show. We'll talk then.