Bankrupt U: Money Trap 10: Pay to Play: Special guidance to aspiring college athetes & families.

Welcome back to the show for another episode of Don't Let College Bankrupt You, and that's the letter U, and that can be going both ways, to U for university or U for Y-O-U. Don't Let College Bankrupt You. My guests, as always, are two college professors, Drs. Bill Klain and Joe Crabbe. Who Pay You Back. Yes, these are two college professors who know what's going on inside colleges, and they work to pay you back so you get the best from that college experience. And during our series of shows, we've talked about what colleges don't want you to know, and really Joe and Bill provide some guidance on how to keep your costs down and prepare for a more successful post-college career. Today it's an interesting show We're going to talk about money trap number 10, and it's entitled pay-to-play college athletics. And those watching the show, those listening to the show, it's not what you think it is. Joe Carabi, pay-to-play, welcome to the show and talk about it.

Thanks, Gary. And as you know, this is a, uh, it's really an important topic for me and one very close to my heart. I think it's important that, that you you find out, you hear a little bit about how Bill and I came up with the term pay-to-play. Many people are aware that in high schools, many high schools, many school districts have kind of assessed high school athletes to, quote, defer some of the costs of playing sports at the high school level. That's not what we mean. We don't mean pay-to-play in that sense. Basically, the term refers to a kid who is really passionate about playing a sport and has graduated from high school and pretty much is beginning to see the end of the road. And they want to continue to play their sport and they want to play at the next level. And for many of them, the only place that leads to is college. So they look for an opportunity to play at the college level, but unfortunately their talent kind of gets in the way of college giving them money. So they wind up paying tuition, very often full tuition, to pay to play their sport at college. So that's the essence and the, I guess, the foundation of the term pay-to-play the way Bill and I use it.

And Joe, there's a function of talent involved. And I'll tell a story. I have, I think, a special ability to watch somebody throw a ball, catch a ball, swing at an object, and tell right off the bat whether they have sufficient skills or not. And I went to a D1 women's basketball summer practice session a couple days ago, and they were all strong basketball players, but I'll be darned, some of them were clearly, clearly more skilled, more smooth than others. It's also a function of skill, isn't it?

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, I have a very simple approach to that. Gary, you know, I believe very strongly that in order to play at the next level, you have to excel at the previous level. Alrighty. And, and I know that's a subjective thought sometimes, but, you know, as an athlete, you have to look around and, and you have to kind of be unbiased and, and say, okay, well, where do I fit in here compared to the people I'm playing, uh, I'm playing with? So what I often say to people is, all right, think about it. Are you starting for your own high school team? Because if you're not starting for your high school team, obviously you're not excelling. All right. So even if you are starting for your high school team, how about you're comparing, comparing yourself to other players in the league? Because you better excel there also. You better make that all-star team. And then think about a county and maybe you have 2 or 3 leagues in your county. If they had one team in that county, would you make it? So you can go up and up and up the ladder, and sooner or later you're going to have to come to a realization. Do you have the talent to play at the next level?

So, Dr. Bill Coin, how does this tie in to paying for college?

Well, there are so many examples. You know, of course, there are scholarships available at the D1 and D2 level, and Joe is our expert on the NCAA rules and that kind of stuff. But, you know, a lot of kids just want to keep on playing because they really enjoy it. And hey, listen, Joe and I talk about AI, which is athletic intelligence, and we think that you can learn a lot from being an athlete and continue to be an athlete at the college level. But colleges will waive that, that carrot, especially for D3 schools. You know, hey, listen, we can get you on the team here. But you're expected to pay full price. So it's really, I got a good friend, he had two daughters, both sat on the bench for 4 years on the basketball team. I don't even know if they played basketball really a whole lot, but they got a space on the bench, paid full price for 4 years, happy about it, enjoyed it. But the college uses as a revenue source. We know colleges that have created team sports in order, just in order to bring athletes on campus who are willing to pay.

And so, Joe, back to page 91 in the book, there's a section says, I'm good, so show me the money. Talk about that for us.

Yeah. Once again, it's an objective look at yourself, Gary. So often too many kids are being fed the simple fact that, oh boy, you're really really good, you know, you might be encouraged to participate by, by your parents, uh, you know, maybe a, uh, some type of almost peer pressure to continue to play. Look, you've got to look at yourself and you've got to realize, are you that good? So when I work with athletes, especially juniors and seniors who are, uh, who are athletes, I say very simply, I say, who's coming after you? That's my term. Who's coming after you? Alrighty, well, invariably what happens is they're really not being recruited. Alrighty, uh, just, you know, I say, well, you know, who's, who's spoken to you? Uh, you know, when you go to, uh, when you go to a showcase, I mean, you know, who's talking to you? Look, you know if you're good or not objectively. If a college is coming after you, it's very, very difficult to hide talent. If you've got talent, they will find you. Uh, so, you know, unfortunately kids don't have a really good perspective on how good they are. You know, we have all these travel teams right now, and, and remember, there's a difference in the travel team if they're paying for it as opposed to you paying, right?

Right.

All right, so, you know, if your mom and dad are paying so you could travel and play baseball, that doesn't mean you're an elite athlete. It just means that your parents have the money, you know, to, to have you play baseball all year.

Yeah, and Bill, let's talk about the scholarships, and, and, and, and I'll let Joe jump in on the different levels of scholarships. But really, when we talk about athletic scholarships, Dr. Bill Quinn, they're really just discounts. There's no money actually transferring from a college account to an athlete's account, is there?

No, I mean, I— these days it's a little different, but But basically, no, it's still just a discount. And you know, I mean, first of all, at a D3 level, you can't get an athletic scholarship. Now they'll put together a package for you that it will include merit money and that kind of stuff, maybe a campus job, that sort of thing. But they're not allowed to give you a scholarship. So, but, All scholarships are just, are basically discounts unless it's a specific, you know, somebody has left money or that sort of thing to fill in.

Right.

Right. But most of them are just discounts.

Yeah.

And so, Joe Crabbe, when we're talking about college money, it's my understanding, and then confirm if I'm right or wrong, it's my understanding though, college says they're budgeting $5 million for scholarships. Say it's athletic scholarships, that's still just $5 million in foregone tuition. That's still not money transferring from a college account to a student's account, is it?

No, you're absolutely right. It's just, you know, it's, it's what we've said all along. We're talking about discounted tuition. Um, you know, it gets a little more complex now, a little more complicated with the new NIL rules and all type of thing, and I think that's probably a discussion for a later date. But, you know, just as you've been saying all along, I mean, it's, it's, it's an enticement to discount tuition for somebody who you really want. You know, it's, it's a signal from the coach to the player. The coach says, I really want you, I'm going to go to bat for you, uh, and, uh, you know, I'm going to talk to the admissions office and, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know, it's very, very simple. Coach talks to the admissions office and says, I want this kid. The admissions office lets the kid come in and decides how much more— the coach decides how much money that kid's going to pay. It's very, very simple. It's a discount.

So is it fair to say that coaches, you know, especially at these D2, D3 schools, they have a discount budget? You can, you can discount, you know, $500,000 but you have to bring in 18 basketball players?

They won't tell you that, but here's the way it works. Just about at every Division III school, a coach has a number of slots. Alrighty, now it's a little complicated because of this reason. So let's just say that, uh, Bill is the, uh, the, uh, coach of the rowing team. Alrighty, so he gets, let's say, 3 slots. So that very simply means that Bill, the coach of the rowing team, can bypass the regular admissions process and bring in 3 kids. Now it's Division III, so the kid is not going to get any athletic money. However, the coach works with the admissions office to determine what type of academic money they can get. Now, a university may have a certain amount of money let's say, put off to the side that they're going to work, that they're going to use to work with that coach on discounted tuition. But the bottom line very simply is Bill can bring in 3 kids. Now it's up to Bill in negotiations with the admissions office to determine how much academic money the kid is going to get. So when you hear a parent say, gee, my kid's gonna— got a full, uh, football scholarship to play at a Division III school, Well, that might make everybody feel better in their conversations with their neighbors. All right. But the point very simply is you've got zero athletic money and got some type of a package, as Bill mentioned earlier, from the, from the college for academic money.

So, Bill Quinn, let's continue this conversation along a different line. So really, it's the same scholarship, and I would do air quotes if I felt like it, but I'm not. The same scholarship whether this student could throw a football 40 yards, play a flute, or could build a robot. It's the same scholarship process, right?

It is the same scholarship process.

Yeah.

And the problem is the kid that can build a robot might be a lot better academically than the person, the kid who gets a an academic scholarship to play football or something like that. And, you know, Joe talks about this in the book that, but nobody tells the professors, you know. So this kid who gets a quote unquote academic scholarship to play a sport may not have the academic qualifications to stay in that school. Or, and this happens a lot, one of the people that Joe and I, the first, actually was the first person to ever read this book, his son plays basketball at a D3 school and the coach said, "Listen, I want you to be sharp for the games. So I want you to only take 12 credits per semester so that, you know, we can do practice and you won't fall behind." Now, now this kid, this kid's dad had read our book and so he's not letting his kid do that. But you know, in a case like that, the, the athlete ends up spending another year.

Yeah.

Yeah. With no scholarship money. And so getting a very expensive education and maybe a subject that isn't gonna help him or her that much. But you know, but the school scores some points.

Hey Gary, can I jump in here real quick, please? We, we have a name for that too. Uh, over the, over the course of these shows, you've realized we pretty much have a name for everything.

Yeah, I have.

All right, so as, as we, we mentioned earlier, we, we call it pay to play. The example that Bill just used about, uh, look, it's very common practice for a coach to, to honestly sit down with his or her players and say, hey look, take, take the pressure off yourself, lighten your load during the, during the season. You know, you can always go an extra semester. All right. But the interesting thing is the NCAA only gives you 4 years to compete. So once you use those 4 years up, if you need to come back for another semester, you're paying another semester's tuition. So we have a name for that.

Yeah.

It's no longer pay to play because you've used up your eligibility. Now you're paying to stay to complete the requirements, and now you can't play ball anymore.

And Joe, that kind of ties into the next question that I have. And you say in the book on page 94 that college coaches are paid to win. And now we see the big-name colleges, the Power Fours and those, we see the annual turnover for not winning. And do you attach that pressure to win at all levels? And if so, can you share some examples of what that does to coaches, especially at the D2, D3, and NAIA levels?

Yeah, I think you could say it's progressively, it's progressively the way it is when you, when you move from Division III to II to I. All right. There's much more pressure at Division I level, obviously, because there's millions and millions and millions of dollars at stake from revenue But there's also a tremendous amount of pressure from, from booster organizations, from wealthy, influential, and powerful community members and so on. But I will tell you, even at the Division III level, there's very little tolerance for losing. All right. So even at the Division III level, you know, a college, a college coach is looking at to recruit the best players available. Just touching back on what Bill said earlier, though, you know, you might bring a kid in through the athletic pathway and you might go to the admissions office to get some, quote, academic money. But here's the problem. The coach didn't talk to the professors, and the professors are under no obligation to lower their expectations for those kids. So The coach is trying to bring in great players so he or she can win, but they're also battling professors who say, you know what, I'm not, I'm not going to give this kid an A just because he could dunk a basketball.

Yeah.

All righty. So you've got a, you've got a problem there too. Yeah, coaches want to win. They're bringing the best people in they possibly can. There's a, there's pressure, um, and it's crazy. But yes, you're absolutely correct, there is pressure to win at all levels.

Bill Quinn, comments on that?

Well, yeah, there, there is, um, and, and that's one of the best things about college athletics is you're taught to compete and win, uh, so it's— but it's a double-edged sword because, uh, you know, you may be paying a very expensive, uh, amount of money in order for your kid to get that lesson. But the idea that, you know, Joe, you know much more about coaches than I do, but all the coaches I knew, they wanted to win, which is why I sat on so many benches as opposed to being out on the floor, you know?

And so, Joe, as we do for each time we record a show for the book Bankrupt You. How do you beat this money trap? This has an emotional component, I think, for those tens of thousands— I'm guessing, if not larger— students and their families who, when they're 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16 years old, have aspirations, realistic or otherwise, of earning college scholarships. And I don't— they're not scholarships or discounts, but that's a I'll beat that horse another day. How do you beat that money trap?

Yeah, Gary, you know, it's— this is a tough one, and I'm going to tell you why it's a tough one. Because, you know, we're dealing with people's emotions, and, you know, kids are passionate about competing. And some— and, you know, you can't bury that. You've— I mean, it's just not fair to the kid to bury it after all these years. So, you know, rather than saying Oh, suck it up, you're done. There are ways that we recommend, right? First and foremost, you know, all right, how do you cut down on the expense? Well, let's say you want to go to a Division III school and you want to play. Well, okay, I'm not in favor of you paying full tuition, but that's your decision. How about this? How about going to a college that might be close to home where you're not paying room and board? You know, and as we say in the book, you know, it sounds unappealing, but Then again, all those home-cooked meals, you know, that's pretty good too. How about going to a community college and playing for a first couple of years? You know, maybe, maybe your body needs a little time to develop, hone your skills, grow a little bit, get stronger. You know, there's quite a few kids who come out of community colleges, junior colleges, and are offered athletic scholarships to play at Division I level. So that's a possibility. Uh, and, and the one thing, please don't do this, don't pay an extra semester to continue at that college. You know, don't let somebody talk you into reducing your load. Um, if anything, try to cut down on the number of years you're there at the college. Use, use the tricks we've talked about in the past. Go to Go to summer school, go to take a course over the summer, dual enrollment type of thing when you're in high school. Remember, you can still graduate from college and still have eligibility, eligibility left. So, you know, even if you graduated in December and you're playing a sport that runs fall, winter, and spring, you can still play. Yeah. So try to cut down on your expenses for college.

So Bill, take us home on this. And there was one other how to beat this money trap, and I'm going to give a sarcasm alert. I don't always do that until after the fact, but the sarcasm alert here is colleges' claim to fame is academics. They teach you stuff. Um, of course, recent events suggest that might not be their only focus, but again, I gave the sarcasm alert, so I'm covered. Study in high school, study in grade school, get those ACT scores, get those SAT scores up, Bill. Guidance to families when athletics may be a priority, but you want a backup plan.

Yeah. And, you know, our book is a playbook. Bankrupt U is a playbook. And I— Joe went over 3 of our plays in there. I forget what number they are. But, you know, we, we actually have— we're big believers in athletics, or at least the athletic mindset, because we're big believers in competing. And you're playing a game for keeps when you go to college. Whether you play athletics or not. So we, we just want everybody to, you know, it, it's tough. What a great thing to be able to say to your friends. Yeah, my, my, my, my son or daughter who's at a D3 school has a, has a full ride scholarship, you know, for because they're on the, you know, you fill in the blanks team.

Yeah.

And of course it's not true, but, but, but the thing is, it makes it, make it a part of the learning process, you know, make, make it make it a package deal there. Yeah, you're— you're— we're going to— we're going to— our family is going to take a little hit for you to play because— but we want you to remember what you learn and set yourself up for life.

And I guess—

excuse me, Gary.

Gary, excuse me.

I'm sorry. You know what? And Bill hits a home run there. Since we're talking about athletics, that's a home run, Bill, by the way.

I never saw one in real life, but let's go ahead.

There's, uh, there's something else, Gary, and, and I think you just hit on it with, with your, your lead. All right, I, I, all right, I'm gonna say this. At Division III level, you better be, quote, a student athlete. I, I think there is a, uh, uh, the farther you move up in the competitive, uh, ranges of college athletics, I think it becomes more athlete, less student. But that's, that's a whole nother discussion. So build your credentials as a, quote, student athlete. Remember, the money in Division III is from academics. So get your SAT scores up or your ACT scores because so many academic scholarships at the Division III level are based on SAT scores. So listen, if you want to play baseball, you want to play basketball, Great, do so. Get your ACT or SAT scores up because that's going to be your avenue to reduce the cost of college.

And of course, as I wrap this show up, we all know that culture is— the culture in the United States is heavily reliant on sports from when we were young and even at our ages, and we're all both, all three of us, well past young. We enjoy watching sports or being a part of sports in some form or fashion because it entertains us. And so we can't ignore the fact, gentlemen, that sports is a part of our culture and that's not gonna go away. But for those watching this show, use the guidance that Dr. Joe Kroby gave you, use the wisdom that Dr. Bill Quain shared with you to recognize the fact that, yes, sports might be able to continue into those college years, but there might be a price to pay. And the academic reason is why colleges exist, in theory. And probably in practice. And so, make sure to take the guidance from the book Bankrupt You. And if you haven't bought it yet from the shows we've done previously, get out and buy Bankrupt You. Spend a couple bucks on the book to save thousands, if not tens of thousands, on that college education. Dr. Joe Corabi, Dr. Bill Quayle, always a pleasure.

We'll do it again soon.

Thanks, Gary.