Beth Probst from Getting At the Core interview. College guidance for students and their parents.

Welcome back to another episode of This Week in College Viability. My name is Gary Stocker. Today we have invited Beth Probst, who is the founder of GettingAtTheCore.com. Beth and her team provide guidance to parents and their students in the increasingly challenging task of finding the of Best College. Beth, welcome. It's good to have you on the show.

Hi, Gary. How are you?

Fine, thanks. Let's go ahead and get sort of started. And just the history, if you would share us, share with us kind of the, the Reader's Digest version of how you've gotten to At the Core at this point in time.

I love that question. And I'm still working on my Reader's Digest version because I'm 54 and there's been some life that happened before that. But, but in short, about 10 years ago, I was watching neighbors, friends, family, and their teenagers moving through those years of high school and making some really, I would say, questionable. And as an outsider, it appeared to be weak decisions about what they were going to do when they were done with high school. So I would interact with these teens, some nieces and nephews, just other people in my life. And I would start asking them some questions. And those questions came from a part of my life that was focused on interviewing. So I have some very strong interviewing skills. And so I was kind of mini-interviewing these teens and getting them to think about, you know, what they enjoy and what they struggle with and what they, what they value and what they prefer. And I'm, asking them these questions, trying to get them to understand you, who you are, is really the source of what should drive the next decisions that are right for you. And if you can, if you can get centered in what you really know about yourself, that will help you make better decisions about careers and about what you would study if you went to college, and then about what kind of college you would go to. So that was really the genesis, was, was having, you know, getting these kids to sort of have some aha moments, and they, they loved these questions. And I, I, I started doing that, um, like I said, about— it was actually almost 11 years ago. And then, um, I thought, can I turn this into something that's more structured and repeatable for, um, students? And now here we are almost 11 years later with a team of about 15 folks that, um, all do things to help families navigate that process from middle school to high school to college and career, and really focusing on self-assessment, career exploration. And then also we do work in the kind of that educational path planning side of things. So that's the short answer. It was driven by what I saw as a right in my backyard need. And I also saw Gary, so we're going to talk money. You know, I knew the cost of college was rising dramatically, and that's where that questionable decision thing, like, I'm very practical, and so I'm watching these kids not have a sense of why they were going to college, and I knew that was, uh-oh, this is danger zone, right? So somebody's gonna pay a lot of money. This kiddo isn't clear on why they're going. This may not turn out well. So I don't mean to laugh about that. It's not funny, but we all want our— we all want students to go to college and have a sense of why they're going.

So, you know, most families, when they're, they're sending their children to college, they get, you know, 1 or 2 or 3 chances to do it and to do it right. And really, they, in my experience, they lack the experience of knowing what it was like 20 years ago. So if you would compare what the college search is, is like in 2023 with what it was like in your experience 20, 25 years ago at the turn of the century.

Well, and for me, the college search was, you know, 1985, so I have to go back even further than that. But, um, I have 2 kids in college right now, so it wasn't long ago that we were doing that search together with them. So what's different? I'd really— I, I guess the the, the strongest element— so many things are different. I mean, let's, let's just state number one, and that's the cost of college. It is tremendously different. And for many families— and again, I'm laughing about it, but it is not funny at all— when families go on a tour and maybe they haven't checked out the total cost of attendance sticker price for XYZ college is $80,000, And they'll say like per year. Yes, that's per year times 4 or 5, you know, however long your student will be there. So the cost of college, number one, ginormous factor, very different, and, and a big part of the search process. And, and in fact, it's such a, a factor, Gary, that I think it causes most families to panic. And try to search for ways to pay less for college. So then that generates all kinds of other questions and activity related to that. Second thing that I can think of that is really different, just— and there's so many things, but just to pick on a few— the competitive nature of admissions. That also has created, you know, the— so, so just to whittle that down for families, So at certain institutions, there are more and more and more and more students applying for the same number of seats that have existed for years in those colleges. So when more apply, but the same number of seats can be placed, that's going to drive down the acceptance rate. So we see some colleges with an acceptance rate in the single digits. So, and, and often these are our most elite or highly reject colleges that are out there. So they're rejecting, you know, 90+% of applicants, even though those applicants are, are brilliant and excellent and excellent candidates for a college education. So the competitive nature has also changed the landscape. And another thing I think that's caused— so third one that's caused a lot of confusion in the world of college searching and college thinking is the ratcheting up of amenities, right? So there's these crazy things that happen on college campuses, which, you know, the climbing wall and the, you know, the pools and the food programs and the this and the that, right? The amazing dorms that look like, you know, luxury hotels. Those amenities, I think, cause a lot of confusion for students who like those amenities, right? But no one's, no one's kind of helping them remember that that's actually not why you're going to college. You know, that's nice and you're going to pay for that. But the question still remains, what are you going to do with your time in college when you're not in the pool? Or on the climbing wall, and how will that academic pursuit and experiences help propel you toward the career that you want? So those 3 things, I think, create— there's many more, but those 3 alone cause a family to recognize the differences between how things are today and how they were before.

When you and your team provide guidance to the to the students and their families, I always like to focus on the top item. And so this question is going to be along the lines— it's going to be two parts, one for parents and one for students. If there's one thing and one thing only, Beth, that you can share with parents that they need to do for their children in the college search and selection process, what would that one item be?

It would be, in my opinion, to set clear guidelines on how the family will pay for college and to communicate that plan early with each of their kiddos that may be heading to college. And, and when I say early, um, I personally like to see that happen before the college chatter may start in your kid friend group, your kid's friend group. And so a lot of times, I mean, I see that happening in competitive high schools as early as 9th grade, 10th grade, you know, some kid will come in and, you know, state, I'm going to go to this university. Well, I'm going to go to this university. And then it becomes just part of the chatter. So having that college money talk early, perhaps the summer before 9th grade, letting your students see, here's the amount of money we have saved, whatever that is, you know, for your college. Here's the amount we're willing to pay while you're in college, and tell them that's called cash flowing, you know, so we can save some and we can, you know, spend some while you're there. But that's all we can do. And so if that number, you know, doesn't equal the amount of college, the cost of college, then other factors have to come into play, right? So will that student take out student loans? Will that student work during college? Will that student have any kind of opportunity to reduce the cost of college with merit? I think sizing that up early and being very honest and frank with students can help create a common language for that family as they go on college visits. And then ultimately that budget will shape what colleges do or do not when they finally send in their financial awards. When— for every— so for families that might not know, for every college that your student is accepted to, you will ultimately receive kind of a pre-bill. You know, here's how much it will cost. To go to this university. So if your student's accepted to 5, you'll get 5 of those financial award letters where you'll come to understand in the end how much it will cost for your student to go to those colleges. And then you'll just go back to using your framework. You know, did College A's offer fit our budget or not? And if it didn't fit our budget, you know, can we go back and ask them, you know, to do better or to appeal? What they've awarded. You can do that. There's a process for doing that. But in the end, you'll have an answer, and they're either in your budget or not in your budget. And I think what a fantastic skill and process to teach your kids very early about something that costs a lot of money and to help them see— model— you're modeling for them how to be wise with financial decisions, and you're, you're showing them so that hopefully they can do that later in life.

So, Beth, for students, and you've worked with hundreds if not thousands of students over the years, what's the one bit of guidance? I know you're a parent as well. What's one bit of guidance, advice you would give to students as they prepare to make their college decision in a year or 2 or 3?

The number one thing that I would share with a high school student is to use high school as truly the exploration zone that it's supposed to be so that you can try on different elements or aspects, different, different career-related classes or electives or programs so that you make a great decision at the end of high school about why you are going to college. I cannot stress enough that, that looking at colleges, doing a college search with no sense of what you hope to accomplish when you're in college, and that, and by what you hope to accomplish, what you're going to study. So you do have to pick a major and take all the classes and pass them in that major to be able to graduate. And then after those 4 very short years of college, what your intended first job role can look like, what kind of career field are you pointed toward. And I believe, again, my recommendation is for students to use that time in high school to really try stuff on and then, you know, throw some things away, eliminate some things, focus on some others, and that will help them make a better— have a better sense of why they're heading to college.

And of course, it wouldn't be fair if we didn't ask the same question about colleges. If there's one thing in your experience and your team's experience that colleges need to do to make the college search and selection process better, what would that one thing be?

You know, my main thought here is I would love to see them limit the marketing materials, but no one's ever going to do that. I mean, that's important to them, but it creates a lot of confusion. I guess I would say to the colleges that I would love to see a greater transparency of data in a couple of areas. One is related to the outcomes. So by outcome, so, so why do students go to college? Students would tell you it's to get a better job. So if we go with that as a primary outcome, right, did the students who attended this college in this major, did they— were they employed perhaps in their field when they were done with that college experience? So that— let's call that the outcome. There is little data that truly defines the outcomes, and it's frustrating for families. You know, if I'm trying to compare, you know, does my student study accounting at this college, this college, or this college, which one has better outcomes? It's hard to find that data. Another, another really one that always cracks me up is a lot of times the graduation rates for universities is published as a 6-year graduation rate. So from the time a student starts, 6 years later, how many have graduated? And parents are like, well, wait a minute, what's this 6-year thing? If they're going to school for a 4-year degree, where's the 4-year graduation rate? Usually doesn't exist. So data transparency, certainly in regards to outcomes. And then another one that's come up in the past few years that's really confused a lot of families, again, data transparency would be my request, related to the test optional movement and how it has impacted admissions. That decision, you know, so now colleges have given kids the decision, do you submit a score or not? Many, not all colleges, and it's still the Wild West right now. It is a moving target. So for those schools that give a student a choice, a student's natural question is, am I hurting myself or helping myself if I don't submit that score? And, and if colleges made available on a, on a wide basis the data about prior years of test-optional admissions, right? Acceptances, actually, acceptances. Then that would help a student know, oh, well, this, this school definitely prefers you to have a score. So I know that going in, and there, there's just not much data related to that.

And even on the outcomes piece, because as you'll see in the app a little bit later this morning, I track 4-year graduation rates, which is of course what you expect. But I have the 6-year one out also. And the argument that I make, and you may have seen this, is if a college can't graduate 50% of its students, I call it a coin toss college. And at 6 years, it's 70%. And so think about that. You're expecting 4 years, and after 6 years, this place, you know, Beth U only, Beth U graduates 85%, and Gary U graduates 55% after 6 years. That's important.

It is. And I, and I would tell families, you know, why is that important? It's important because which colleges seem to have a track record and a trend of supporting students toward graduation, right? You don't want to be swimming against the tide where most people aren't graduating. You do want to be in a place that has clearly the goal The— it must be clear to students that they must have good academic advising. There would be some— some— that number doesn't just magically happen. That number is happening because the university is doing some specific things to help move students toward graduation. So that's a good clue and a sign. Yeah.

And then we track 8 years. And if your 8-year, 4-year graduation rate is 45%, You have not established nor shown any capacity to have the systems and processes in place to graduate students.

And I would say that is absolutely true to state at a university level. And I still would always tell families to dig deeper because if you believe there might be a hidden gem program within a university that appears, you know, broken in that way, be sure to, to deduce as best as you can, you know, does the program— is there a particular pro— I'm thinking of one at a university, I'll have to share it with you offline, but it's a school no one would ever really think about, but they have an amazing program in this one area. And so I just don't— I, I would want— I think on the whole what you're saying is, is 100% correct. I just want that student to also take that extra time and dig into that area that they're thinking about studying.

And I'm going to speculate here, and you can redirect the question as appropriate, that some of the conversations you have, maybe with both parents and students, is they may ask you, Beth, or your team, tell me about good majors and tell me about bad majors. How do you respond to that?

Those are tricky words, you know, good and bad. What makes something good? What makes something bad? I will definitely say And we coach families to consider that there are some majors that have a more direct connection to a career or a field, and there are other majors that have more of, more of an indirect connection. So let me give an example. So healthcare, you know, if a student studies in a— if they're in a BS in nursing program, program, it is likely that that student will graduate and become a nurse, a nurse, right? If I study psychology, right, and get a BS in psychology, I'm not going to be a psychology or even necessarily a psychologist. I may, I may have a pathway to lots of options. But that connection is a looser connection that requires me as a student to take more action and perhaps layer in minors that can kind of cross and intersect with that major to make it more applicable to the things that I want to do. So I, I, I would hesitate to say good or bad. I would say some are more challenging to connect to the working world and thus require more effort for the student. And, and others are more— this one has a pretty direct path. And so because of that, I guess before picking a major, We would go back to that student really taking the time to consider who they are and what their strengths and interests and struggles and preferences and values are, and then to start to investigate the kinds of careers that excite them and that seem like they could be a great fit and a match for their, for their traits and qualities, and then understand what I would study, and then think about where I would study that. So, so when a student has done that, if they, if they get to psychology, that, that, that less connected major, it's because they've already gone through the thinking about what kinds of careers are interesting to them, and they've made that choice. Those students that, that follow our philosophy and our coaching, that would be the the path they would go through. Now, does every student do that? No. In fact, most students, Gary, start at— of all those 4 that I just talked about, who the student is, what they want to, what kinds of careers can be a great fit, what they would want to study, and then where they go to college— of those 4, in that order that we would suggest and challenge families to consider, most families just jump right to number 4 and they just focus on the college. And they sweep the others away. And unfortunately, that's troublesome. So when we just focus on the college, that has its own challenges.

Interesting, interesting. And to think that's going on as we have this conversation, as you shared earlier, and the cost associated with that. It's scary. It's scary in a lot of ways.

Well, and then, and Gary too, I mean, just to bring this one up, we see this a lot where a student will, we call it posturing. So all through high school, a student will, you know, go to a family event and someone will say, what, what are you thinking about studying? Where are you going to go to school? And the student will say, I'm going to be a nurse, or I'm going to be an engineer, or I'm going to be a fill in the blank, right? And no one, and everyone packed that pat the student on the back and says, awesome, that sounds great. You'll be a great fill in the blank. But a lot of people don't want to scratch the surface and really, really challenge that student a little bit to think, well, where does your interest in engineering come from? What do you truly know about engineering? What actionable things have you done during your high school years that gave you a taste and a flavor of engineering that caused you to know, oh yeah, this would be great? No one wants to upset the apple cart. And what— and but then if no one does do some of that thinking and challenging, then what happens? You've seen it, Gary. They go out and they search for colleges that are engineering schools. They spend thousands of dollars visiting these schools, applying to these schools, all kinds of angst and pressure. And did they get in? And then they get in and then the kiddo gets in those first engineering classes, which are often very difficult weed-out classes. And the call comes home to mom, you know, in October or November of that freshman year. I've decided engineering is not right for me, and I'm now going to switch my major to English or, you know, general business, or right. And so to your point, all those things are what we're trying to avoid because we recognize that the cost of college is so tremendous. And the investment is tremendous, and we want to make a good choice and have a good opportunity for a return on that investment.

Well, you know, Beth, I don't have any kids in the high school age looking at college, but I'll tell you what, if they did, the first thing I would do after we get off our call today is I'm going to have them contact you because the level-headedness with which you approach this is impressive. So that's good to hear. And I'm gonna wrap up our chat with just a couple things. Of course, here at College Viability, we focus on financial health and to a slightly lesser extent, the viability of colleges. And it's on very few families' radars. I understand that. But when you look at that from a professional perspective, how do you assess risk? How do you share that with students and families as they start developing that first college list?

That is a great question, and I will, you know, we are newly connected and I love the work that you are doing and the intense, you know, focus on this. I will number one make you a resource. I'll tell folks, you know, go take a look. I know there's a Forbes list as well, a rating that we've made available to our families encouraging them to take a look at that rating and see how Forbes has sized up that institution. On a more like personal level for a student, we encourage them while they're on campus to look for things like, like this is a simple one. If you're in a science building and you, you're certainly looking through, you should, you should consider when you're on a visit, you should consider all parts of that university up for grabs in terms of, you know, you're looking at things. You should be looking at cleanliness, repair, right? Maintenance, like obvious things like that. But a great one is when you're inside of a, inside of a science building, a biology building, you'll be looking at the technology and the equipment that's in use. Same thing, you know, in a computer lab. And if you're seeing things that are outdated, maybe that microscope isn't even as nice as the one that's inside your high school, that should be a concern. That should be a concern because, or you see things on carts that are being moved around and shared, that could be a sign that, that there's a lack of equipment, that money is not being put into The tools that are required. I mean, that's just a simple one, but, but look for it in other places. Look for, you know, the, the digital lab, you know, that's supporting maybe the radio station or the TV station for that. Look at all that stuff, because if a, if a college is really trying to keep those students on the leading edge in their field, you're going to see certain pieces of equipment that, that may be available. Certainly check on things like, like if there's been anything in the news about, you know, the shuttering of programs or the, you know, the closing of a college within the university. I would also suggest to that student that they could think about figuring out how important the major you're looking to study at that university is to that university. And how would I know how important it is? One easy way is numbers, right? So how many— what percentage of students are studying the thing that I'm going to study at this university? And why is that a concern? I mean, some people might say, oh gosh, if it's small, that could be really good because we'd have, you know, great access to professors. And, and that's one philosophy. But another philosophy is that in times of shrinkage, in times of restructuring, those majors which really aren't important to the university, you know, by, by the amount of students that are there and the resources made available, those could be easy to, to, to cut. And so I think it's just— those are just some things to think about.

Well, let's wrap it up with this, and if you would share with the listeners and viewers of how they can get in touch with you, and of course I'll put that information down below in the description. And then we'll wrap it up from there.

You bet. You bet. So I would, I would tell anyone who's in this process of thinking about navigating that path from middle school to high school to college and career, probably the best thing you could do for, for several, many years, probably I really have to go back and count, at least 8 years we've been producing a free weekly newsletter and it's filled with high school, college, and career planning. Information, and it's just intended to be this burst of Sunday morning support for families. And it is, it's something we're really, really proud of. It's free. Share it around. And families can find that or subscribe to that list on Getting at the Core. So G-E-T-T-I-N-G, Getting, and the company name is At the Core, gettingatthecore.com/subscribe. That'll get you to that spot. If someone has heard my message about the importance of a student knowing why they're heading to college and kind of having that sense of self-assessment and career exploration prior to making decisions about majors and colleges, that's what we call guided self-assessment. And again, on that same website, gettingatthecore.com, families can find links to learn more about and videos to learn more about guided self-assessment. And then we do tons of webinars. Most are free. Some of our deeper dives have a $29 family ticket. We're trying to make things very accessible to families that need this information. You'll find that event list also on our website, gettingatthecore.com. Okay, Carrie, thank you. This is awesome. I love your mission and that you are attempting to ring that bell, bang that drum and tambourine on behalf of families to pay attention to something that they might never have thought of before. And I know your work is going to make a huge difference for so many families.

Well, the challenges in finding the best college, not the ideal college, not the perfect college, are gonna be with us for a long, long time. And as Beth shared during our chat today, It's really a focus on what the student wants, what the student is good at. That should be the primary focus of that search. It should not be the best college or the college that the student wants at the top of the list. There's a process to go through, as Beth described, to get to the best college. In addition, we also want to remind viewers that not all colleges are financially healthy. And that as part of that search, we would encourage you to make sure you ask challenging questions to those who are part of your admission process at any college, any private college that you're looking at. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode of This Week in College Viability. This is Gary Stocker. The challenges in finding the best college, not the ideal college, not the perfect college, are gonna be with us for a long, long time. And as Beth shared during our chat today, it's really a focus on what the student wants, what the student is good at, that should be the primary focus of that search. It should not be the best college or the college that the student wants at the top of the list. There's a process to go through, as Beth described, to get to the best college. In addition, we also wanna remind viewers that not all colleges are financially healthy, and that as part of that search, we would encourage you to make sure you ask challenging questions to those who are part of your admission process at any college, any private college that you're looking at. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode of This Week in College Viability. This is Gary Stocker.