Hope College and Butler University: Inside Their Financial Numbers - January 13, 2026 CFH Show

It is the College Financial Health Show with Matt Hendricks and Gary Stocker for Tuesday, January 13th, 2026. And of course, this is the only show that looks at the financial health of private colleges to compare and contrast what's good about many private colleges and what's not so good about many other private colleges. Private colleges. If you have colleges you'd like us to put on the show, drop me a note either through LinkedIn, or you can drop me an email directly to gary@collegeviability— that's one really long word— gary@collegeviability.com. I think, Matt Hendricks, we're about 4 weeks out in terms of shows. We're always getting requests to put colleges on the show. So for those watching either the live version or the recorded version, drop me a note and we'll be glad to put those on a future podcast. And Dr. Matt Hendricks, where are we going today?

We are going to Hope College in Michigan and Butler University in Indiana. Both are in pretty good shape, uh, relative to what we used to do on the show a lot. Uh, these are requests, so we're honoring those requests. And I'm just going to go right into it, start with Hope College in Michigan. And you can see the financial compass, right? Yep. All right, so here's Hope College. Again, we have the peer set automatically populating, and I'm going to start— actually, I'm going to start with this key metrics table first here and pull this over. All right, so I'll pull this whole thing in. All right, so this will give you a really good snapshot right away of, you know, what, what to look out for, and we'll guide our analysis, but we can kind of get a preview here. Total net assets, Uh, they have $500 million or so in total net assets, $516 million. And since 2020 to '24, that's— I don't have their '25 audit yet, it wasn't in the clearinghouse, but I see it's on their website, so I'll get it in soon. Uh, they're up 22% on total net assets. Unrestricted net assets have grown by 8% over this period, so no flags there. You can go straight to the stuff that is being flagged. They have a positive average net income over the last 5 years. But this is potentially problematic. There's a small deficit in 2024, and I confirmed in '25 they also had a deficit. Actually, I'll, I'll show you that when we go to net income margin. So it's not huge though, it's like 4% of their operating revenue, so it's not a massive deficit in 2024. And I'll check the '25 with you guys together. Uh, net student revenues about $95 million in 2024. It's higher than it was in '20. Up 8%. That certainly sounds decent. CapEx to depreciation ratio above 1 in every year except for one, average about 1. That's perfect. Uh, cash and investments growing nicely, up 31% over this 5-year period. Um, and the ratio of cash and investments to expenses is another thing to track. Growing, it's great. Everything looks fine. Only thing that I can flag here that would be something to look at if I were them are these— you can see these endowment draws are creeping up. It was 4.7% in 2020, which is normal, but this is abnormal. The last couple of years that I have available, '23, '24, these draws are bigger than normal. And you couple that with the deficit in '24, it looks problematic. Looks like they're starting to have some financial stress. And so that's sort of the takeaway from this table. If I were to say one thing about this table, it says looks like they're starting to encounter deficits and appear to be compensating with drawing more than normal on their endowment to fill that gap. And even with that, though, they're not filling the gap. So let's take a look at the graphs and see if that's sort of the general consensus here. Start with net assets. Total net assets and look at the growth relative to peers and relative to the median. So their net asset growth is up 40% or so since 2016. That's slightly below normal, um, not a huge issue though. Normal would be about 47% growth. Their peers are doing better, they're up 49%. You can see it's recently that the peers—

oh yeah, I saw that.

So again, I think this coincides with HOPE's issues, uh, starting to flare up here. In '24, uh, 2024. And I'll double-check the '25 audit with you in a second. Uh, we'll check the unrestricted net assets percent change. It's really the same story. Unrestricted net assets actually decreased here from $30 million to $29 million. Not ideal. And you can see again the peer set catching up and actually perhaps overcoming them by 2025. Um, so it looks like we have some evidence here of, uh, financial stress brewing up like in the last years or two. Yeah, um, we'll go to net income margin to show you that. And you can see that they, they were running surpluses every year until, uh, the last few years have been a little bit choppy. And then 2024 was a pretty bad result. Um, so we have this net income loss here in '24. Interestingly, that's what their peer set has too. So yeah, not out of the norm for their peer set, but again, ideally these would always be positive, right? Plus 1% is sort of the norm here over a long horizon. All right, so I'm— again, I don't want to dismiss these other years that many years of positive net income, but it looks like it's starting to become an issue now. Let's take a look at what's happening to the overall revenues and versus expenses, and we can get a sense of what's going on. So they're here, their revenues are really flat since 2016, only up 2%, um, and that's abnormal. Again, normal would be up about 18%. Their peer set's up about 22%, um, on operating revenues. And also keep in mind that This is, this is also with them taking bigger than normal draws on their endowment. So, um, if you adjusted back down to 4.5% draw, these operating revenues are probably looking even worse here in terms of changes. Um, so revenues are flat, expenses, total operating expenses. And so here's, I think, what the issue is. Their revenues are flat and expenses are growing. Almost normally, right? Expenses are up 20%, revenues are flat. So you're starting to see the consequences of that show up in the net income margin, right? The difference between the two is turning negative. So yeah, the— it looks like the expenses are growing far faster than revenues here. Okay, let's take a— let's dive. Now I'm going to dig deeper into the revenue side and the expense side, and hopefully we can find some nuggets for them to look deeper in and understand their situation better. Start with net student revenues. Student revenues. Remember overall revenues are flat. Same story with net student revenues, quite flat. Most schools are compensating by having large investment growth, right? Endowment growth, which is growing their endowment draws and all of that to compensate for that. But their revenues were relatively flat. Their student revenues also are down a bit since 2016. If you adjust for inflation, of course, the story is very different for everybody.

Yeah.

Yeah, in real terms, students are getting a great deal on higher ed these days. I don't know if many people understand that, but, 'cause the rhetoric says the opposite, right? If you read any story, it's like, oh, college is so expensive. Well, here you go. In real terms, college is about 25% cheaper than it was in 2016. Interesting, right? When you look at the data, it doesn't always match Intuition and the news. All right, so their student revenues are flat. Let's take a check. We can check kind of what could be driving that. Again, that can be driven by price changes or enrollment changes. And so I'm gonna check the price first. And so it looks like, again, that's adjusting for inflation. I'm just gonna go back to nominal and looks like the price is pretty constant. About $29,000 on average. That is net tuition revenue plus auxiliary, which would include room and board and all of that. So sort of average student paying about $29,000 per year at Hope, which is a really high price, actually much higher than their peers at— yeah, look at that, 75th percentile of all schools. This is a really expensive school. So the price has been relatively flat. We know that their net student revenues are also flat overall, so enrollment must be mostly flat, although could be down a bit. Let's take a look. So these sort of imply each other. Yeah, it looks like enrollment's largely flat, down about 7% since 2016, although it's been sort of rebounding recently a little bit. Yeah, good. All right, so this exercise sort of helps you understand what's happening on the revenue side, the main revenue drivers, the student revenues. It's just mostly flat. The price looks high. And has been high forever, it looks like. Enrollment's growing though, slightly relative to lows in 2020. So that's sort of a positive trend. So these freshman classes that have been coming in the last few years must be bigger than the graduating classes from years prior. So that's good. So not a huge red flag there, but remember I showed you their expenses have grown a lot, right? And they're not— the school itself is not growing. It's actually shrunk a bit. So that, I believe, is going to be the issue here with the budget stress. And so I'll just go straight to it here. I think is their biggest budget stress, go right to salaries and wages. This comes off of the audit.

All right.

And I'm going to normalize it first relative to their revenue. All right. So I actually made a LinkedIn post about this. Really, really crucial that you keep your payroll spend sort of in in a region that's normal and sustainable for a university. And that means spending about half, 55% or so, no more than 60%, really, on payroll and salaries and benefits for all your staff. You can see they were, when they were doing well financially just a few years ago, their payroll spend was in the normal range. Now you can see it's very different.

Right, yeah, interesting.

So they're spending about 63% of their revenue on payroll, which is very odd. Again, only 25% of schools are above 61% spent on payroll. They're at 63%, so they're in the top, top of all schools in the country, and they're far higher than their peer set. The peers are normal, right, about 55% spent on payroll. And you can see that they're just gradually getting further and further off the norm in terms of payroll spend relative to their I think this is the main driver for the financial stress at the school, and I'll show you lots of other support for that. So I guess it becomes a question of whether they're just paying their employees too much, which I don't think is the reason, but that could be one reason this could happen. I think the main reason is to have a lot of employees, and I'll show you some evidence on that in a second. But I'm going to show you per FTE first. So again, the story is the same. At the peer group, students are paying— or the school is paying $22,000 per student for staff, right? That's faculty, staff, part-time staff, everybody. Um, Hope College is paying $26,000. So there's a big gap here in terms of how much, uh, they're spending per student on, on their staff. And we also said per their operating revenue is also very high. So I think generally just have a staffing issue. I'll show you some more evidence from the 990 here. W-2 employees. All right, and we'll do this per, per, per revenue. You can see most schools are, are shrinking in terms of their, uh, number of— yeah, the number of W-2 employees you can pay per $1 million is getting less and less, right, because we have inflation. Um, so, but anyway, the main thing to note here is that the peer set is normal. All right, we've got about 18, 19 employees per $1 million in revenue. But, uh, Hope is way off that. Again, they have 24 employees per $1 million in revenue, and that's, that's the problem, I think, right? I'm guessing just based on the data here, my advice to them would be to check the number of staff they have. We can do a deep dive in the Strategic Compass, or we do, we do it every time. It's one of the biggest, uh, value-added that we provide our clients, understand not only that this level is high, which I can do right here, but we can also track exactly or pretty closely to the department level, occupation level, and understand which areas of the college are overstaffed potentially, all right, and look at how to fix that. So I think we have an overstaffing issue here. It's pretty clear.

And again, why you change screens, Matt, just for the folks at Hope College, Matt just referenced the Strategic Compass, and it's the tool that does exactly what he says it will do. It will go in and compare you to peer groups that you select, statistical peer groups. If you want a demo of what it might do for you, drop either Matt a note or myself a note, and we'll set up a time to show you what it could do.

Yeah, so here's one, one view of an overstaffing issue. Again, the 75th percentiles here, they're just a lot of staff, right? Um, another way to look at is per FTE students. And this is one of those schools, Gary, it's not very common to have the same number of staff as you have in students, but Hope College appears to be in that case. I should make sure I'm really precise on this. This is total W-2 employees. So the number of W-2s, basically unique W-2 employees that you had throughout the fiscal year, they had— well, I'll just break it down for you. They had 3,200, right? That doesn't mean that they employ 3,200 positions all year. It means that's how many people were issued a W-2— unique people. All right, so that's a lot. All right, so it can be caused by overstaffing, which I think is the problem, but also can be caused by churn, uh, and so on. And this includes also student workers and anybody that gets a W-2, right? So anybody that's getting paid. Um, all right, so right, they have about 3,200 students, so there you go. It's 1-to-1 ratio.

1-to-1.

So just based on experience working with clients, need to work at— look at, you know, staffing by occupation, which we do with our clients. Also look at the student workers. How many do you have? How many are funded through work-study? They probably have a lot more student workers than are being funded by work-study, but I wouldn't be able to know that unless we looked at their data. But this exercise will probably make it very clear to them why they're having some budget stress and how to fix it. Okay, I'll go through some of the other items. Uh, I did a quick run through before the show. Um, I didn't see anything that looks abnormal, but look at contractors— tends to be another part that, um, is problematic. But their number of contracts, yeah, over $100K per $1 million in revenue looks about right. Per student looks about right. Uh, that— I don't see any issues with that. Uh, I'll go to some of the other, other big spend items. They're not reporting. This is clearly a reporting problem. The whoever is filling out the 990 since about 2020 needs to fix this. There's no way they're spending zero on IT. That needs to be fixed.

Probably not likely.

Yeah. Insurance looks fine. Per FTE, it's also really low. All right, let's go to fundraising expenses. Okay, this is a bit high and it could be relating to staffing, right? This includes the staff as well. So one area, just here's a big clue, one area that might be overstaffed is the advancement office. So double-check that, although it does look similar to their peer set. So keep that in mind. Maybe this is the norm for this type of school. Fees for services looks about right.

And Matt, what do their gifts look like?

Yeah, I've got this ratio of operating gifts to fundraising expenses. Let's take a look. It looks like I'm missing some years, um, but that just based on the years that I do have, it doesn't look like that's going to be an overspending issue there. So, um, perhaps their advancement office is fine. Um, and again, it was below the peer set on the total spend on fundraising. Okay, so, um, those are the— again, I think the biggest takeaway here is that they appear to have a staffing— a significant staff overstaffing issue. Again, that's just number of bodies, too many, uh, way above normal. Uh, they can sustain an above-normal level just because the price was higher, remember, but, uh, probably not sustainable at the level that they have right now. I want to just double-check before I move on to the next schools, double-check that any of these specific contracts and see if we have any, yes, okay. All right, here's some probably a lot more money for them to save if they wanna balance their budget. They could probably do it just by renegotiating this contract or getting a new one. The reason I say that is they're spending $3,400 per student on food service. That's very high. Again, normal is $1,700. And remember that number $1,700, I think the next school Butler is right at that. I know this is a, a rough ratio. Every school is going to be a little different in terms of the graduate and undergrads and stuff like that. But, um, just keep in mind this is nearly double what is normal. So that's a big difference, right? You might explain some of this gap with differences in students and stuff like that, but I suspect they can save money here, balance their budget, and even not have to reduce the staff, right? So that's a, that's a possible thing to look into, right? Just putting—

we've had, we've had others tell us that there's capital expenses included in some of those food service amounts as well.

Entirely possible. What I'm suggesting here, and what I would be happy to do with them, is do both these things. Go through the diet, look at this specific contract. It costs virtually nothing to go get more bids, right? There's dozens of other food service vendors I could hook them up with. Get other bids. Compare and go back to your current vendor, Creative Dining Service, and say, hey, we want to be closer to these other bids. Let's do it. All right, really simple. And in fact, that's what we've done. Some of our clients have actually done that. All right, construction, architectural. So again, we have the— these all look fine. I mean, it's hard to benchmark these, so I don't see any issues there. But this Food service. So you've got potential overstaffing, serious, uh, suggestion of overstaffing, right? Yeah, yeah, corroborated by lots of different data, um, from the 990 and the audit. All right, and I'm sure iPads. I'm actually thinking about pulling in the iPads, uh, staffing data into this. Some of that, some of what I have in the— a lot of what I have in the strategic compass, just to take a small subset of that and put it in here, but I'm sure that'd be corroborated by iPads as well. And then the second thing is this food service contract, easily worth your time. If this gets changed, there's easily $3 or $4 million here. So there you go. Those are some options to balance the budget. I said I was going to go through the 2025. Let's just double check. So a couple of things I did check. First, let's check if they ran a deficit in 2025. And this isn't in the financial compass yet because it's not in the clearinghouse. That's where I pulled that. But I can manually add these to my database and I'll do that. So they ran a deficit in 2025, $3.3 million.

Yeah.

Can you see that? Okay. So still deficits, still issues. Again, this is a good motivator. $3 million loss. What I said they could save on their food service contract, probably.

I think it was something like $3 million, Matt.

Yeah, yeah, that's, uh, enough to close that gap. Um, although they have a massive loss on total. That's what— for— okay. Um, I have to do this off the show, but, uh, looks like must have had some restricted revenues, a whole bunch of restricted revenues coming in here, uh, that are— but again, this is the most important one to balance this part. Yeah, um, the other thing I checked is to see if the staffing issue is still present. And this, this is worth our time just to show you where to see that. So in 2025, they spent $86 million on salaries and wages and benefits. Uh, again, that's super high still. If you take this $86, divide it by their revenue, it's still at 61%. Remember I said normal is about 55. Under 60% for sure. So they're still really high here. That's still the case off of what I could see in the Financial Compass. So definitely worth looking into staffing and food service contracts. All right. Anything you want to add to that, Gary?

No, let's go to Indiana.

All right, let's do Butler. And this should be pretty quick. I mean, in every metric, I think this school is doing quite well. And so I'll go to— actually, let's go to the summary table again first just to give a good overview. So net assets, uh, net assets have grown from $530 to $571 million, 7% growth in 5 years. Uh, unrestricted net assets have shrunk.

Interesting.

That's not ideal. We'll take a look at that. I don't remember seeing that in my prep, but I think the reason I wasn't worried about them is that they're not running any deficits. In fact, these are massive surpluses. This is 7% net income margin, 10%, 9%, 12%, 20%. Again, those are probably higher than you'd want, right? Ideally, this is a nonprofit, remember? So try to get, you know, close to that 1% norm, I think would be ideal. So they could probably spend more money, to be honest. Um, net student revenues are up 18% in just 5 years. That's amazing. CapEx to depreciation always above 1. It looks like I'm missing a year, but safe to say that's above 1 as well. Cash and investments are shrinking. I wonder if they got dinged in the market That might explain this unrestricted loss. Yeah, yeah, you can see the cash and investment shrinking here. I wonder if they invested in something that did poorly. Uh, we can check that, but honestly, I'm not worried about a school that's running massive surpluses like these. Uh, and their endowment draws are tiny. Excellent. All right, so they could probably draw a normal 4.5% and spend more money and still I mean, obviously they're primed to sort of invest in more programs if they want. Uh, probably shouldn't have told them that, right? But, uh, I think they certainly have some room to invest if they see some opportunities out there. Uh, let's take a look at net assets again. I'll just do a quick run-through since the school is doing so well. Uh, total net assets, percent change. Excellent. Net assets are up 71% since 2016. That's above the norm. Excellent. Unrestricted net assets, like we said, were shrinking the last 5 years, sort of. Okay, okay. This adds more context, right? So yeah, they shrunk the last 5 years, but before that they were killing it. So that could be related to their investment makeup, to be honest. They had something that did really well initially and then sort of tapered off here. Tapered off. Net student revenues. Percent change. Amazing. Top 25% of schools, 40% growth in net student revenues per student, price is constant. I bet their enrollments are way up, Gary.

Let's find out.

Yeah, they have to be. Yeah, they're up 25% on FTE enrollments. It's amazing. This is also interesting if you're competing with Butler and you're wondering where your students went and you're losing students. They might have gone to Butler, right? So yeah, there's not more 18-year-olds than there was, you know, 5 years ago, but higher percentage of them are going to Butler. All right, uh, so let's see what else on the expense side. Let's take a look. So their expense makeup is a little bit different. I'll start with, uh, so just to compare to Hope College, so they have a very low spend on staffing compared to the norm, right? They're only spending 52% of their revenue on salary, wage, and benefits. So this school has a little bit different operating, uh, setup, and you see this a lot, and this should be the case if you have a low number of employees. You should be spending more on contractors generally, uh, or you're just not doing as many things. So I'll show you the contractor numbers. They have a ton of contractors.

Oh yeah, look at that.

For a long time, um, this may work. I mean, obviously they have balanced budget, so their, their mix is heavy in contractors, low on internal staff. You don't want to be high on both. And usually when you're doing that, yeah, we see that a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah. So they have a lot of contractors. I'll check those. I can't remember if I found any that looks weird, but there's another, here's another piece of evidence, total fees for services. That's like sort of the total dollar value spent on vendors. You're spending a lot on vendors. Not a lot of internal staff, a lot of vendors, it looks like. So that works, and it's certainly working in their case. Let's take a look, let's take a look at, um, take a look at specific contracts. Yeah, I remember I did look at this because here it is. So again, if you're at Hope College, I hope you're still paying attention. Here's a food service contract that is completely normal.

1555. Yeah.

Oh, okay, they're actually spending less on food service than Hope College is. right? And they're twice the size. So that's, that's sort of what I was getting at here. Again, it can be a mix of students that change that, but let's not just dismiss it because usually that's not going to explain that huge difference.

And I don't know that Butler is viewed as a, as a commuter, commuter college or anything. That would account for that too.

Yeah, I mean, this is what we can offer. This is, this is all I'm providing this for free and a quick demo, uh, but certainly worth your time to look into that food service contract if you're at Hope College, um, and perhaps get a bid from this group. I've actually never seen this. Oh wait, that's student housing. Sorry, I was looking at the wrong one. This is Bon Appetit, $1,700. That's actually the first time I've seen Bon Appetit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

They're the most expensive vendor, um, so probably don't expect to get a good bid from this company. Uh, but I don't know what's going on with this one, how it, it looks like it may be not the full food service because it says board catering. All right, so there's possibility this is not their only food service on Butler's campus. But, uh, anyway, this all looks pretty good to me. It's hard to say. They're building a bunch, they're growing a lot, so there's— that's explaining some of the fees for services. But they should probably go through all of them and make sure they all make sense. Looks like they dumped Noodle Partners, which which a lot of people did, uh, did. And all right, I'll leave it at that though. Butler looks really good. I don't have anything to complain about there. I'll pass it back to you, Gary.

We've done this show so many times, and I think both of us are pleased when we see financially strong colleges like Butler, and to a lesser extent Hope College, because we don't see that a lot. Most of our shows, most of our colleges, we have concerns about and that College Financial Compass that you just showed, available to anybody and everybody for the ridiculously low price, Dr. Hendricks, of $219. Drop me a note and I'll make sure to get you a link to get that. But I'm going to go back to something you said, Matt, when you were talking about Hope College, and you talked about college is 25% cheaper, and you were showing that data on the screen. And that's certainly good for the students, and I've talked about that in a lot of the media that I do But that's not necessarily good for the colleges themselves, is it?

No, no. And that's why it's again really important that you're growing your endowment, because if you don't have an endowment, really your revenues are going to be down 25% or so, right? A lot of these schools are compensating. You saw their revenues were flat despite the fact that, um, well, that was nominal, but there are a lot of cases where schools are doing terribly on student revenues, but their endowment's grown so much that they've been able to sort of maintain what they've been doing despite the loss of student revenues. I do worry though what hap— what will happen when the market finally turns down, if it ever does. Yeah, it seems like it's been only going up for the— no matter what happens. Uh, but suppose it start— decides to do the opposite for 3 years. That may be the point where schools are really struggling, right? They think they're struggling now. If the market turns south, then it's a way different ballgame.

And let me ask you to speculate on one other item. Again, Butler, impressive, impressive in so many ways in terms of financial health. And as we started 2026, we had a lot of folks saying, hey, this is the year of mergers. Well, folks have said that for the last many years. But in your mind, Matt, is, is a college, a private college as financially strong as Butler, one that should look to grow with merger candidates or not?

I don't know, maybe they are. I mean, it's— I'd be curious to see how they've grown enrollment that much. But honestly, I've seen a lot of, uh, you know, sort of the flagship schools in the country are all really growing. Unless they don't want to grow, then they just become a lot more selective. And many schools don't want to grow, right? So, um, certainly Harvard could grow if they wanted, but they just don't want to. Appears. So, yeah, I don't know. I guess it would be up to them. But they may be just— they may be acquiring. I don't know. We'd have to look at how they've grown their enrollment.

Okay.

What we saw. Do you know of any mergers that Butler has done?

I've not heard of any. So I don't think they have. But it just struck me that, you know, that there are colleges that would benefit from that kind of model. And I just thought I'd pick your brain on that. Let's take a quick look at some other stuff then, and I have, um, filter this out here. So looking at 4-year graduation rates, which is always the first one we start with for the 2025 College Viability App. We'll have the 2026 versions out shortly. And again, both Butler University and Hope College, to their credit, nice job on graduating students in 4 years. And Matt, I've had a couple recent media events and my own social media posts where I'm noting that the, the folks appear to try— trying to be changing the standard from a 4-year graduation rate for undergrads to a 6-year as a standard. And that's sneaky because there's all sorts of opportunities. You economists would say there's all sorts of opportunity costs associated with waiting 2 more years to do that. But in this case, Butler and Hope College doing well. I just took a quick look at how much of the store they were giving away. Hope College not giving any away, which is interesting, or they don't report the data. And, you know, Butler has had unfunded tuition discounts grow about $30 million— not quite— in the last 8 years. So even with substantial unfunded discounting, they're still, still doing well financially. I looked at both in the 2025 college majors completion, and Hope struck me as, as a, as pretty strong with what they offer, because look at these strong numbers. There's a dozen or more strong majors completion of the 64 that I track. And a few, as every college has, of low major completion numbers. But I was impressed with how many Hope had strong completions. And Butler, not as good. They have quite a few low-enrollment majors, uh, majors completions that they have on their agenda. But again, they're doing financially well. And Matt, you know, I've talked about this before, but the 2026 version of the College Majors Completion app will have 170-some-odd majors from 2020 through 2025 across associate, bachelor, and master degree programs. And always fascinating, Matt, to, to see strong colleges. And, and again, I said— I mentioned just a couple minutes ago how you and I are always pleased to see when that happens on the show. And again, those watching the podcast, if your college is doing well and you want to— want us to promote it, drop us a note. We're not picky. We take the list first come, first serve. We put it on the show schedule and it comes up. On the other hand, uh, if you have concerns about the college you're considering, the college you work at, drop me a note again to gary@collegeviability.com. Give me the college name, I'll put it on the list, and we'll get that show on the schedule for a future episode. So for Matt Hendricks, I'm Gary Stocker. Thanks as always for making time to watch the College Financial Hustle We'll be back next Tuesday with another 2 colleges on the show. Take care until then.