Special TWICV: 'Bankrupt U' - The Book: with Bill Quain and Joe Corabi

Welcome back to another special episode, this time of This Week in College Viability. Hi, it's Gary Stocker. Thanks for making time to join us and to listen to us to what I think is going to be a pretty gosh darn cool, interesting, and I think, having talked to these guys before, entertaining podcast. Dr. Bill Quayn writes about personal growth, personal success, sales, and wealth creation. His books are published in multiple languages and have sold He sold over 2 million copies worldwide. Dr. Joe Kurabi is the co-author of 4 books with Bill Quayle. And Joe has a wealth of experience in the field of education as a teacher, football coach, athletic director, high school principal, college professor, and much more. Their latest book is going to be the topic of our podcast today. Listen closely, Bankrupt U: Students, Parents, and Alumni Are Going Broke and Colleges Don't Give a Crap. Now that's an acronym. I'm gonna let these guys explain what the acronym stands for. And this book, Bankrupt U, was named Amazon's number 1 new release in the college and education costs category. Bill and Joe, this is important, Bill and Joe are both college professors. As such, they give their readers in this book, and I think other places, an insider's view of the business workings of colleges and share crucial information on making money, something that colleges choose not to teach their students about. Bill Quayn, thanks for joining us. It's going to be a pleasure. I can tell in advance.

Gary, I'm so excited to be here. Love your podcast and thanks for having us on.

Well, thanks. I always like the plug on that. Joe, try not to be too entertaining today if you could, you know, kind of keep it calm a little bit. And Joe, I'll stick with you with the first question. Sure. Bankrupt U has the subtitle I just read, Students, Parents, and Alumni Are Going Broke and Colleges Don't Give a Crap. All right, time to define the acronym, Joe.

Well, what's really funny, Gary, is that, you know, the whole thing about colleges don't give a crap is something that Bill came up with. And look, I can take credit for it. I can absolutely take credit for it, but I'm going to start this off correctly. I'm going to throw this one to Bill. I know you want me to handle this one, but I'm going to throw it to Bill because this is his acronym and I can't take credit for it. Go for it, Bill.

Bill, it's all yours.

All right. So yeah, colleges don't give a crap. And that's an acronym for CRAP, is an acronym for Creating Richer Alumni Playbook. So Colleges do not give you a playbook for creating richer alumni. And that should be the whole reason that you go to college. I mean, people keep saying, you know, studies show students and parents say their kids are going to college to get a better job and a better life. That was actually a poll done by the Gallup organization. And, but colleges don't think about you at all after you graduate. They're only concentrating on the 4 years or the 6 years or the 7 years that you're still with them because they have what we call an attract and extract strategy. We can talk about that more, Gary. But yeah, Joe and I, I mean, Joe's a college football player, college football coach. You know, I do a lot of consulting and speaking and we like to give people a playbook, a step-by-step, here's how you follow it. And here's how you get what you want.

So, you know, you listen to the title, Bankrupt You, and you make the connection that it's about colleges. So, Joe, who's this book for? And then what compelled both of you to say, hey, this is a book that needs to be written?

Gary, you know, the whole book, the whole incentive behind the book was, I think, a pretty simple one. I know I got my incentive from the fact that for many years, and You did a very nice job introducing my— we'll call them my history as an educator. You know, this is my 52nd year in the profession. And, you know, I know that's a long time. But I'll tell you what, over the years I've become very frustrated. And my frustration stems from the fact that colleges know the rules of their game. Unfortunately, parents and students, they don't know the rules. I mean, they know the rules that the colleges want us to understand, the application process and academic credentials and so on. They know that game, but what they don't know is the game within the game. This book really details the game within the game. Bill and I want families to become successful. And you don't become successful if you don't know how to play the game of college. Because if you win at the game of college, you've got a chance to be successful your entire life. But the reality is that if you lose the game of college, you're going to be behind the 8-ball for the rest of your life. And I'm passionate about that. Yeah, I am absolutely passionate about that.

So, Bill, let me just turn that same question over to you. This is a fascinating title. It kind of competes for the best title ever from the book that was written, Whatever It Is, I Don't Like It, which is of course about college faculty. And when we talked a couple weeks ago, You and Joe both were getting some reactions from the colleagues where you work at, and I'm assuming in the interim you've got some reactions from higher education professionals throughout the country. Talk about that, Gary.

You would think, you would think that'd be the case, right? Uh, we've, we've shown this book and shared it to a lot of college administrators, fellow faculty members, that kind of stuff. You, you would think that it would elicit some sort of curiosity just to find out what a crap is that we're claiming colleges don't give people. It's crickets. It's crickets, Gary. I thought I was going to have to barricade the doors and stuff, you know, maybe get a protection detail when I go to work. But it's crickets.

It's crickets.

And as it turns out, Now, Joe's had a little bit different experience because he did talk with the president of his university about this. But by and large, I mean, we're sending this out to people, we're alerting them that there's something new afoot here and nothing. And the reason is because colleges, the people who work at colleges, we did a press release a little while ago, Joe and I, something like, The only people who think that colleges are doing a great job are the people who work there, you know, and they're completely convinced that they're misunderstood. They're doing a great job. And if they can just get the world to understand them better, everyone will think it's great. And so, Gary, I got to tell you, except for a little initial flurry, I'm not hearing a thing.

So I guess if, you know, there's stories, a follow-up, Bill, and I'll stick with you on this, is if somebody says something you don't like, one of the best tactics is to ignore it. And I'm guessing you think that's what's happening now?

Yeah, well, I think so. I don't think they're thinking of it as a tactic. I just think that they can't imagine that there could be anything in a book with that title that would pertain to them. I mean, and I'm honest about that. It's a mindset. You have to understand that colleges are big business. Their only intention is to stay a big business and stay in business. And my gosh, look at some of the places you see that struggle and hang on in your college viability reports there. Their only goal is to be open 10 years from now. And the people who work there get paid every 2 weeks. And by the way, Joe and I are some of those people. We'd like to thank all the taxpayers and students and parents who have kept us in good fettle there. But it's not even a strategy of saying, I think I'll just ignore this and it'll go away. They just don't care. They just don't. It doesn't raise to a level where they would think to themselves, that this could possibly be the tip of the spear.

So, Joe, you talked to the president. Tell us about the conversation.

You know, it's funny the way you formed that question. I've had some people who have read this book jokingly, by the way, not my professional colleagues, but just people. And they said, hey, Joe, you know, did you clear this with anybody? Did you talk to anybody beforehand? And, you know, at this stage of the game, Gary, I'm not overly interested in, you know, in worrying about that type of thing. But I did have this great conversation with my university president. And I actually met with her shortly before the book was released. And I got to tell you right up front, she could not have been more gracious welcoming or interested in the content. And her reaction to the book afterwards is somewhat humorous. I've seen her a few times since that conversation. And she said to me, said, well, Joe, I'm going to buy this book. I said, oh, I said, no, you're not. I said, I'm going to bring one over to you. So I brought one over to her. And right before Christmas, She read the book and she says, I'm taking notes. And I said, I can't wait to have this discussion with you. So I saw her a couple of weeks ago and she said, Joe, I read the book. And I said, guess what? You and I are going to have lunch. I want to hear what you have to say. I just wish that more people were willing to see and hear the other side, that there are there are components of the college whole business that people want to hear. So I give my university president just a tremendous amount of credit for being, just for being willing to hear and listen.

And Joe, she doesn't come from academia, right?

No, no, no. Well, it's really interesting. No, no, she's been a university president before, and has experience in that area, but her background is not necessarily that of teaching. Look, she is— I don't know whether she's the exception to the rule. I'm getting the feeling she is. But I will tell you something right now. The reaction I got from her was, Joe, I want to hear more about this.

Interesting. So let's kind of back up a little, gentlemen. I've got a question I'm going to ask the same question to both of you. Bill, We'll start with you. So, the professors who pay you back is a big theme throughout the book. And step us through how that came up really in conjunction with your history. And then, Joe, I'll have the same question for you. Bill?

That's a great question, Gary. And first of all, as you know, I like branding phrases, right? That tell a story when you come up with it. You'll see those in titles throughout the book. But Joe and I wanted to brand ourselves in a way that we could bring in some facts about ourselves and tell people exactly what we're doing. And what we're saying is thank you. We're saying that we've lived a great life. And this is, in my classes, just yesterday, I was I taught my classes yesterday. I thanked my students and it just drives them crazy. I said, listen, I want to thank you because I've had a great life and I got a nice boat and my kids, I was able to pay for my kids' college. I want to thank you. And then I told them, please thank the taxpayers if you meet any, that sort of thing. Because University, I mean, being a faculty member is a magic job. It really is. It's such a delight to spend. I mean, Joe and I both really love what we do, but we realize that people are paying a lot of money, giving up years of their lives. Parents are sacrificing that kind of stuff, and we're the beneficiaries of it. And I don't I think that many people at college realize that. So, who are, I mean, who work for a university. But it's a magic existence only because people paid the university tuition money and the taxpayers gave up their money. Yeah.

And Joe, you know, the professors who pay you back, you know, Bill may want to take credit for that, but that's an interesting phrase. How did you get there? And how do you, from your perspective, how do you pay back your students?

Yeah, and then Gary, you know what, you— I'm going to be very, very, very serious about my response here. You did a great job detailing my experiences as an educator. This coming March, I will be married for 50 years.

Alrighty.

And no, that's a long time.

You're telling us you're old.

That's what you're telling me. I am.

Well, yeah, that's, you know, remember, you have 3 ages. I want you to realize that you do know what those 3 ages are, right?

Those before, but go ahead.

All right, there are the, the age that you feel, right, the age that you look, and the age that you are. All right, so, you know, remember, it's not how you feel, it's how you look. So that's the most important thing you have to remember. All right, but, you know, getting back to your question, you know, I've been married for almost, almost 50 years, and I've got 5 wonderful children and We're very fortunate their spouses have added to our family. I got 15 great little grandkids walking around. I call them the little people. And sometimes I want to see them and sometimes I want them to go home. But the reality is I got 15 little people running around. I've had a great life.

All right.

And, you know, I have a boat. Also. Um, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's just a nice little fishing boat. And Bill and I take turns on who's going to take the boat out and who's going to drive the boat and all those different types of things. He's got his and I got mine. But I simply want to give back. I've had a great life already, and, and I think other people deserve that. And, uh, I want to give back. I'm, I'm very, I'm very thankful of all the opportunities I've had. And very simply, I got stuff, I got stuff in my brain that can help other people, and I just want to give it away.

Interesting. And Bill, I'm going to go back to you. You mentioned a minute ago that you like naming things. And again, from the acronym we started off with to the professors who pay you back, A couple that I have in my notes here, From ATMs to Slot Machines is one, and then 10 Money Traps. Tell us about those.

Well, and the ATM to slot machines, this is a really interesting thing. And you know, it's funny as you write a book, and this is my 28th, Joe and I've done 4 of them together. And we make a great team when we write. It really is great. And my wife, Jeannie, is very much involved in writing this with us. You evolve. But you've got one thing Joe and I know from being a professor is you've got to make things simple and memorable for people. And so, we wanted to explain how colleges view their students and their alumni. Joe and I came up with the concepts together. Of what we want this to look like. And then we hired an artist. And now, Gary, I guess one thing I need to mention is that, you know, and you know this and Joe knows, of course, but for your listeners, I'm almost totally blind. I walk with a guide dog. Her name is Trudy. And so it's kind of ironic that a blind guy wants to come up with images for people because I get them in my head. And so, from ATMs to slot machines, this is so great. This is how colleges view students and alumni. So, colleges see their students as a walking, talking ATM. And what the colleges know is that through federal funding, student loans, and that kind of stuff, that that ATM machine is always full. And so, what they do is when they admit you to a college, to a school, 'cause remember, it's an attract and extract. Here's another couple buzzwords, right? Attract and extract strategy for colleges. They want to attract you to their school to fill out the seats in their classroom, the seats in their cafeteria, the beds in their dorms, that kind of stuff. And then they want the PIN code for your ATM. And so they look at you for the 5, 6, 4, whatever years you're there, as an ATM machine and they're gonna keep pressing that button 'cause they got the PIN code and they always get paid in advance. This is a great thing about colleges. You can't get a seat in that classroom unless you're paid up. So that's the ATM machine. So they look at you that way and that's how they see their students because that's where they're getting their pay for that every 2 weeks. But when you graduate, first of all, when you graduate and you walk across that stage, you're gonna think you're hearing this sound of the faculty clapping and applause. But what they're really doing, Gary, is they're wiping their hands of you, you know, because they have no more connection with you once you graduate. The average— for the average alumni, you're turned over to the alumni department. And the job of the alumni department is to just continue extracting as much money as possible. So the alumni department sees you as a slot machine. And in the book, we have these great pictures that this artist came up with for us. And it's a picture of a graduate with the cap and gown, and their body is a slot machine. But there's no coin slot on the slot machine. In other words, there's no place where the college has to put any more money in. And they just keep yanking on the handle, hoping every now and then they'll get a jackpot.

And I read that in the book and that was, I giggle a lot. It's a terrible disease that I have. And I know I giggled at that because it's a fascinating way to look at it. It's completely correct. You know, the college I graduated from many, many, many years ago, I still get the free email in effect saying, hey, we're cranking that slot machine. It's just, and I'm gonna editorialize for a second. It goes back to the crickets thing you mentioned earlier, Bill. Because I had the same kind of impact. Folks tend to ignore what I do, especially at the higher levels, until I poke them a little bit and make them realize the financial piece, of course, is what I focus on, is what's going to be their demise, or many times, what were they thinking, like we talked about before we started recording this morning. So, Joe, in my mind, this is kind of a cookbook approach. And those are good books to read because they're pretty concise. They give you concrete things to think about. So, a cookbook approach, to this book for your readers. In Chapter 5 of the book, you talk about grow, show, and bestow. What in the world were you doing with that?

You know, once again, my dear friend Bill Quayn comes up with these, I don't know, these catchphrases that stick with you. The whole thing about grow, show, and bestow, it's funny when that first came up, Bill had to really sit down with me and help me get a better understanding of that. And then once he sat down and explained that to me, I said, Bill, you can't be any more on target than what you just said. People use all this flowery language to describe what people should be and so on. If I try to answer that question, I can. But the thing is, I'd love to flip that to Bill for this reason. First of all, it's his. But secondly, he does such a phenomenal job in being able to explain the nuances of that particular— I'll say that particular saying. So Bill, run with it because all you need to do is tell people what you told me because it was magic to me.

Well, grow, show, and bestow. It's the value chain that you got to create in life, whether you go to college or not. I teach a class at Stockton University called Make Money and Pay It Forward. And this is one of the cornerstones of that class. Because I tell the students, look, you're in college, you want to grow your value. Now, value is only valuable if someone's willing to pay for it. And not to be confused with values. This is something you're going to sell to somebody else later on. So, you take the time in college to grow your value. When you want a job, you then show that value in no uncertain terms to the people you're expecting to give you money. And when you really want to do something great with your life, you become someone who can bestow value on other people. And Gary, this is just the way that This is the way that people become successful and make money. It is not taught in college. You know, we take your money and we tell you, "Okay, you have a degree, that's all you need." And, you know, a degree doesn't buy you anything. What buys you something is if someone is willing to give you the money because they're getting more from you than they're giving up.

[Speaker] And so then, you know, there's another phrase in the book I assume this was a typo, Bill. It says money, sunny, and honey. Was that a typo?

No, no, that's— people always say to me, well, that can't be right. And that's the— and Joe and I, we just laugh about this because we hear professors talk at meetings and just the phraseology they use. And you're thinking to yourself, how does anybody understand what you're talking about? Make it simple. The only 3 things that you need to get right in life are money, sunny, and honey. Money is easy, right? You need a certain amount of money. And that's what you sell your value to get is to get money. And, you know, sunny is your mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual health. This is how you have a sunny outlook on life. By the way, when you have a sunny outlook on life, you become much more attractive to other people. And that's great for them to give you money. It's also great for finding companionship and that kind of stuff. So, sunny is like a sunny disposition. And honey is your relationships, as in, honey, I'm home. And people say to me all the time, this is the typo you're referring to here. People say to me, Wait a second. Don't you have this wrong? You have money first and honey last. And the way I come to people's heads, I said, well, listen, if you don't have money, it's not going to be very sunny, honey.

Oh, goodness. Bill, I'm glad you're a book writer because you got the phraseology stuff down pat, don't you?

I'm not sure which one came first.

There's probably a follow-up there, but I can't think of it. So, I'm going to pass on that. Last question, I want to go to both of you. And, Bill, you just kind of mentioned this. Culturally, college has always been a big deal. It still is for sure. Culturally, college has always been a big deal. And this is not really directly from the book. So, Joe, I'll start with you. From your perspective, what kind of high school student, what kind of child still, I guess, should seriously consider college? In the 21st century and what kind of students should not?

Gary, I'm going to answer that question this way. You know, our society requires specialized fields. And, you know, these specialized fields, I'll use a different word for it. I'll call it credentialing. We have certain fields that require certain credentials, whether it's you want to become a teacher or a doctor or whatever it might be. The thing that stands out to me is who should go to college? I'm not sure I can— I'm not in everybody's head. So I know everybody has their own reasons on why they need to do that. But I'm offering a word of caution. And the word of caution that I'm going to offer is this, that whatever you decide to do, you need to consider something that people aren't talking to you about, and that is the return on investment of your college education. Alrighty? I understand that people want to pursue their interests. I have no problem with that. And as long as you go into that with eyes wide open, that's fine. But you have to realize that not every credential is going to yield the same amount of return.

Yeah, right.

So the one last thing I would say is this: I would minimize— if I were a student right now, I would minimize the college experience. Colleges are trying to sell, quote, this thing called an experience. Look, I have a very simple thing. If you want the college experience, then go to a football game because it's a whole lot cheaper.

Not by much, but I guess you're right. It probably is a little bit cheaper than the 4-year experience. And Bill, again, this is an important question because culturally we still believe as a culture, as a society, that students should go to college. Which ones should and which ones shouldn't in your mind?

Well, you know, you mentioned in a previous question, but some of the phraseology we have about the money traps. Well, one of the money traps that actually, sorry, our first one is called The Parent Trap. This is not the movie. This is The Money Trap College Edition. And the pressure that are put on parents to send their kids to college. I think one of the questions that we have to start asking parents is, "Are you sure that that's what you want to do?" Because the kids are, you're 18 years old and you have a choice of going to college or going to work or going in the military. A lot of people are going to choose college because, as Joe said, the experience these days is honed to a fine edge in order to have that attraction, right? Attract people there. And there's a lot of pressure on the parents and the students. To go to college. I think, in my opinion, anybody who really wants to go to college, I would say, you know, explore it, but try to do it in a partnership with somebody who knows how to evaluate, you know, what life is all about. And the kids aren't, you know, the kids aren't old enough to do that. So, I think that the people who should go to college are the people who have a mentor, someone to guide them a little bit. And because colleges will take anybody's money. And that's not a good look for an 18-year-old who might have to go into debt for it. So, I would say if you haven't got somebody that's going to help guide you, I'd be real cautious about committing to going to college.

And Joe, as we wrap this up, where can listeners and viewers get the book?

Well, the book is available on Amazon, and it's available in both paperback and Kindle. And listen, I always say to people, listen, there's a lot of good stuff in that book. So please go out and buy a couple hundred thousand copies. You know, and listen, if you want to put an order in that, that's big, we'll even discount the book for you. But, but it's available. And as Bill said, as Bill said earlier, you know, reaching that, that milestone from Amazon, we're very proud of that. And we, and seriously speaking, we thank all of those people who have put their faith in us and have purchased that book. We've gotten great feedback, and we just want to help people, Gary. It's that simple.

Yeah, I know, I know, I know. And, you know, as I wrap this up, it's important for me to re-emphasize that we just got done listening to two college professors, two college professors of long tenure. They have been around for a long time. Dr. Bill Quayle and Dr. Joe Carabbi have been my guests. Their book is is Bankrupt You. Fascinating title, and it's a good cookbook. I'll be honest, if you're a parent, you want this. You want this for yourself and for your child. If you're a college faculty member, you know, sometimes different perspectives are important. Isn't that what college is all about? You want to learn different perspectives. I would encourage you to take a look at this. For those of you that follow me on a regular basis, you know that the higher education industry is, is in trouble and that I poke the proverbial bear on a regular basis. If you're not looking at this and others are, they may end up with a competitive advantage that you don't. And that advantage might simply be they'll help their students make a couple bucks after those 4 or 5 or 6 or 8 years in college. So for Dr. Bill Quain, Dr. Joe Kurabi, I'm Gary Stocker for a special episode of This Week in College Viability. Bill, Joe, thank you very much.

Thank you, Gary.

Gary, thank you very much. Just thoroughly enjoyed it. And, uh, um, just keep plugging away, buddy. You are, you are reaching, you're reaching people. And, and let me tell you something, you're making a difference. So thank you.

Well, thank you, sir. And the regular edition of This Week in College Viability will begin again next Monday, as always. And I'll look forward to joining all the listeners for there. Bill, Joe, take care. We'll talk again soon.

Thank you.