The College Financial Health Show for January 21, 2025. A financial health and viability review.

It is the College Financial Health Show, the show with Matt Hendricks and Gary Stocker. Welcome back, everybody, to the show. And this week we have 3 colleges on our list, and like we do every week, we look at the finances, we look at the enrollment, we look at the graduation rates, and much, much more. We look at colleges that are financially strong, colleges that are financially on the border, And too many times we look at colleges that just have an unsustainable financial path. Hi, I'm Gary Stocker, founder of College Viability.

And I'm Matt Hendricks, founder of Perspective Data Science. Today we're looking at, uh, 3 schools sort of all over the spectrum on, in terms of financial health. Uh, I'm going to start with best to least financially healthy school. So the first school we're going to look at is Concordia University St. Paul. And their key financials look great. I'll show you those, followed by Andrews University in Michigan, which has some flags, but maybe still doing okay financially. I'll double-check that again with you guys live here. And Naropa University in Colorado, not looking good financially. And I'll show you that. Looks like they've given up on the sort of brick and mortar type of delivery. They're going to go online only. They're selling their campus, um, and I'll show you what that looks like, um, from a financial standpoint. So I'll, I'll start with, as we always do, with our Advanced Compass, Advanced Financial Compass app, which is currently free, but, uh, we're going to sort of split off into different, uh, segments here on this, uh, because I have, oh man, almost 100 different key financials we can explore on this app now. And I want to make a more complicated version, uh, that has a lot more in- in-depth analysis, um, that will be sort of geared towards a more sophisticated financial analysis. And then we'll have a free version still where it's open source and people can get informed. Um, so I think you can see my screen, right, Gary? Yes, correct screen. All right, um, so we'll start with Concordia St. Paul. Concordia. So again, you can— if I can type— you can type, um, start typing the school that you want to look at and it will filter down. Um, Again, if you're new to this app, the blue line is the school that we're studying. And we have two different graphs here. So you can see some side-by-side comparisons of different— it comes in handy when we look at, say, revenue versus expenses growth or something like that. Another thing to keep in mind is I have a set of closed schools here. These schools closed in either 2023 or 2024. The list of schools are here just to get a sense of what, what you really want to avoid in different financial metrics, like what's really bad. And you also have your guides here for the percentiles. This is the median. School in the country, the solid line. The dashed lines are the other percentiles. Of course, median is 50th percentile. This is the 75th percentile here, and this is the 25th. All right, ideally you would stay right in that band or really close to the median on really all of these metrics. That's the, that's really the ideal, uh, what you want to see from your school. Okay, uh, but in some cases more is better, uh, potentially. We'll, we'll take a look here. So here's Concordia St. Paul. They have had— actually, I would have been not happy with this. This is not a case where more is better. This is their net income margin. And so that's simply their— really, the easiest way to think about it is their profit divided by operating revenue, right? And this is a nonprofit. So these really should hover really close to about 1% every year. And they were above 10% for a long time, which is not ideal. It generally indicates to me that the school is not investing potentially fully in its mission, which is a problem for a nonprofit institution. It looks like they got that back under control here. They're much closer to the normal net income margins, although still must be part of their sort of culture there to keep those higher. But having a positive value is definitely better than negative. I'm not—

we see a lot of negatives there.

Yeah, I see a lot of negatives. In fact, the school went negative in '23. Um, the 2024 data is not all in, but I, I think it's going to be negative again this year, although slightly better. Um, so yeah, you want to keep that at +1% or so, right in, right in that ballpark. And of course, uh, the cash flow from operating activities needs to be positive, otherwise you're gonna have to borrow or sell stuff just to pay your payroll. Um, and that is again not ideal and not sustainable. Uh, schools that are closing are running net cash deficits from operations every year, basically, uh, for— or many years. I shouldn't say this, actually. We have the data here where they have positive for some of these, but the really went poorly for them towards the end of their life here, and that's what ended up killing the school. They don't have a lot of reserves in some of these cases. And, um, yeah, I mean, you can't make payroll, that's the end of the line for you. Um, okay, so they're looking good. Uh, they're positive net income, positive cash flow. That's excellent. Uh, let's take a look at the next thing I like to look at is revenues over time versus expenses. And you can see, I believe, some very strong net— that's net tuition revenue. I'm going to do overall operating revenue. I'll show you that in a second. Total operating revenue and expenses. Okay, so their total operating revenues are up 66% since 2016. That is excellent. That's probably one of the best in the country. So school's doing great with revenue growth. Again, the median revenue growth for schools since 2016 is about 21% growth. They're at 66%. That's excellent. And the school is just growing, right? They've grown their expenses. Actually, I showed you on the previous graph that they had actually maybe an underspending issue. It appears they've fixed that quite a bit. Their expenses are up 77% and their revenues are up 66%. They still have a positive net income. What I would hope they would do to sort of get that net income back to normal, invest in their mission, and keep having positive net income. That's exactly what they're doing. So excellent growth here for this school. I'll show you net tuition revenue. Again, probably one of the best schools in the country in terms of net tuition growth. It's up 73%. That is incredibly good. The median school's down a bit on net tuition revenue, which is, you know, that's the pressure in higher that you're seeing, um, a key operating revenue for most schools being down is problematic. Um, if you don't have an endowment, that's really going to be your main life source, right? And so those schools that have very small endowments are not seeing revenue growth, and they're seeing expense growth, um, with inflation and everything else. So that's putting a lot of pressure on their financials. But that is not the case at, uh, at Concordia St. Paul. I will say this about St. Paul. Be a bit careful. They're kind of the poster child, so to speak, for tuition resets. And I dug into this a little bit, and I actually, you know, think somebody should say a lot more about this because it's a lot more complicated at St. Paul than just, oh, they did a tuition reset and their net tuition took off. They did their tuition reset back in 2013, and take a look at their net tuition revenue. It doesn't really take off until I mean, really, you get the spike in 2021. So the, the correlation between their tuition reset and their net tuition revenue is not exactly as tight as a lot of people want to make it out to be.

Interesting.

Another thing is their net tuition reset, their tuition reset is not the type of tuition reset that most people think about. They actually reduced their net price, right? Which seems counterintuitive, right? They actually reduced the price that kids, that students pay to go to the school. Um, a traditional tuition reset is not doing that. It's just reducing the sticker price and keeping that out-of-pocket price the same for the students. So they sort of get the illusion that they're going to pay less, but they don't actually pay less. So that's not what Concordia did. They actually significantly reduced their net price. It worked out, probably worked out quite well for them because their net price was actually high at the time when they did that. That's a whole other analysis that you can see in our Strategic Compass. I made one for them a while back because I was very curious about this sort of poster child case for tuition resets. And I don't think it should be a poster child case because it's not a tuition reset in sort of traditional sense. Let's take a look at their endowment. Endowment. Change in endowment. Their endowment's growing nicely, up 83%. 3% since 2016. So what does that probably tell us about how they're managing it? They're doing well. And there's lots of different levers there. One is your appropriations, which is something I keep tabs on because you worry about schools that are financially struggling. They'll start drawing more than normal from their endowment and their endowment will either shrink or just be stagnant. You can see the story here. What's one of the reasons why this endowment is growing so well? Their endowment draws are quite low. They're basically about half of what is normal. A normal draw, a normal endowment draw is about 4, 4.5% of your current year end of year endowment value. And they're at like 2%. So median, very nice. Again, 4%. So their endowment is going to grow quite well because of that. Yeah, there's, I mean, There's other things to check here. The CapEx— this school is not struggling financially. You can see again, CapEx, you want that to be relative to depreciation. You want the CapEx spending to be a little bit above depreciation so that you're growing your property and equipment, your technology over time. You're covering any, any depreciation expenses, which are real expenses. These are not just made up by an accountant. Depreciation is an expense like your shingles on your house getting older and older every year, right? That's an expense for you that you don't necessarily pay today, right? You pay it when you replace the roof, but you need to account for that in your current year expenses. So it's a very real expense. You can't ignore it. But yeah, they're doing a good job of covering their— this is 2, this is 1.6. You know, again, the median's just above 1. That's exactly where you would expect to be if you're going to just cover your depreciation enough to grow your capital stock a little bit. And I'll show the final thing on them. Their capital stock has grown quite a bit. This is their property and equipment, up 41%. Again, this school is really growing and prospering. And but again, I do— don't, don't mistake this for completely attributable to a tuition reset. I would argue actually it was not a tuition reset at all. It was a very different policy that actually reduced the price, the net price, which is not a tuition reset in the sort of traditional sense. If you want to know more about that, feel free to reach out. Uh, thinking about tuition reset, I wouldn't study this case. This is not a tuition reset. Um, okay, Andrews University. Andrews— having a hard time typing this morning.

Must be your keyboard, man.

Too much coffee probably is what it is. Uh, Andrews University in Michigan. All right, so the, the way I'm presenting these is Obviously Concordia is in great financial shape, and then I'm going to less, less financially healthy. Let's go back to our net income and cash flows here. So again, you want positive net income margins, and this school struggled for many years to do that. We have a negative 6 here at the first year of my data, minus 1.8, minus 2.5, minus 1.5. They had 2 positive years, 2020 and '21, and actually 3 in a row. I suspect that had a lot to do with CARES Act relief, right? That's when COVID happened, and you see this bump on the median school here. That's because most schools got very generous funding from the federal government, um, through the CARES Act, right? And other sources as well. So that that dried up in usually 2021 or '22, and they go back to these big deficits again, -5% in 2024. So this is very concerning that they have these negative net income margins. I was very curious about this case, so I did look into this. This is really odd to have a really, a fairly large net income loss from operations and then also have simultaneously a big cash positive net cash from operating activities. I don't know if I still have this audit pulled up. I think I do. Yeah. Andrews University. I'll show you what happened here. So here's the 2024 net cash from operating activities. Although they had a big loss in net income, they have this line here, which is very bizarre, right? They had $11 million You can see last year was only at $1 million, $11 million from deposits and deferred income. So what's happening here is a little bit of weirdness with the accounting. This is why it's always important to double-check what's happening. So basically what's happening is that the cash flow statement, they received this cash already. They received $11 million, but it's for something that's not services that have not yet been given. right? So it could be deposits on tuition or something like that that were received for 2025, but they actually received the cash in 2024. So the timing is actually pushing up their net cash from operating activities, uh, in a way that's not normal. If you take this out or even make it what it was last year, which is pretty typical, um, you can see their net cash from operating activities is very close to being negative. Um, and that's again problematic. Once that turns negative, a lot of bad things happen. Yeah. Because that's the point at which you need to start borrowing just to pay payroll. And banks are generally not going to be very happy about that. Okay. They don't want to give loans that are going to things that are not collateralized. They want to see that you have cash flow to pay the loan off. So it's going to be difficult, difficult there. So yeah, the school has financial problems potentially here. It looks like it's getting worse. And you can see, so a couple of things here. They had a big loss here in 2016 and a big loss in 2024. So I'm going to show you the trends in operating revenue. You got to keep in mind that they're starting out at a big loss here versus expenses. So total operating revenue. And I'll show you the expenses on the bottom graph. Expenses. Yeah.

Okay.

So they're unlike Concordia. Their operating revenues have grown slightly again, but it's not very good, right? Up by about 6% is very poor, right? Again, the median schools—

that's over 8 years, 8, 9 years, 8 years.

And so that's a problem. And but they've done a good job of keeping expenses in check to sort of match that. Their expenses grew by slightly less than that. But remember, they had a big deficit they started out at in 2016. 16. So they still have big deficits. In order to sort of close that, they would've probably— this needs to be about 6 percentage points higher than this, and they're almost identical. So not ideal. Again, they're not growing revenue. Let's take a look at net tuition revenue. Yeah, again, they're struggling with the revenue side, and I suspected this was going to be the case. Their net tuition revenue is down 5.5%, which is actually worse than normal. Again, median school is down by 1.6%. They're down 5.5%. So doing slightly worse than the median school, certainly better than the schools that closed though. So that's good. That's good. I don't, I mean, this school probably has a much longer runway than these schools did here in the red. They're not sort of matching them at the moment. But certainly something to worry about if you're at this school or if you're working there. And of course, this is obvious, right? And they need to get net tuition revenue up If they want to know how to do that, we have a lot of things to sort of diagnose what's happening, what's wrong with net tuition revenue. It can be things that you never dreamed of, right? You might think automatically, oh, or, or maybe we're discounting too much or something like that. It could actually be the opposite that you're discounting not enough, right? Maybe your net price—

and that tool you're talking about is the Strategic Compass.

Yeah. Yeah. I didn't create one for this school, but I'd be happy to do that, help them out. I'm definitely interested in helping schools that are struggling to grow net tuition revenue just like that. And, and maybe have expense problems. Although this school looks like they're pretty good at keeping expenses under wraps. Let's take a look at some of the other key indicators here. Endowments. Their endowment's growing normally, although they have a problem, I think, in that their endowment is small. Yeah, this is the ratio of their endowment to expenses, and it's very small. The median school has a bigger endowment. Quite a bit bigger endowments than their annual expenses. This one's quite a bit smaller, right? So it's a pretty small endowment, although it's growing normally, which means their appropriations are probably in check here. Yeah, those appropriations look about right, although we had a couple of years here during COVID where they were taking bigger than normal draws. That looks like they went back to normal. Their property and equipment, Let's take a look at this. So they probably built some buildings here in 2019, 2020, maybe one building over those two years, but then their CapEx spending was low and then it was high again. So again, you worry about these years where you've got three consecutive years here where you're not replacing computers, for example, potentially, or, you know, not keeping up. It's possible, right? I know these things spike a lot and move around a lot, but you just worry about that. And then in general, the property values should be going up over time and they're not. Oh, they are, but not as, not what's normal. Their property, plant and equipment value is up 5.5% since 2016. That's not normal. Normal is 15% growth. So they're lagging there on the investment in the physical plant. I suspect they're losing students, right? Which would make sense. You don't want to necessarily invest in buildings when you're losing students. Right. Yeah, so there's clearly some financial issues here. I would love to help them. If they would like help, reach out. I can make a strategic compass, go through that thing in detail, and find lots of policy options for them. Last school I'm going to look at is Naropa.

And while you're bringing that up, for those watching the recorded version of this, there'll be some contact information on at the end of the video on how to reach out to me, and I'll set up with Matt to start talking about the college strategic compass for your college.

Yep. All right. Norpo University. This one is definitely struggling the most out of the 3 that we've studied on this show. So again, you've got most years negative net income. I mean, they just had 1 year, it looks like, and that was the COVID relief year. So every year, big deficits. In fact, this deficit is— these last 2-year deficits are much worse than the closed schools' deficits. Um, and so of course you worry these are worse than the set of schools that are already closed. So as far as I know, this school's still alive, but they are, um, switching entirely. They're selling their campus and going to online only. Um, which, you know, makes sense. I know actually that was the strategy used by some of these schools that died actually to just say, hey, let's just try to do online only. And, uh, and apparently that didn't work out either. Yeah. Negative cash flow from operating activities. Again, they're going to need to borrow just to pay the payroll and everything else. And eventually that cash, that, that lifeline runs out over time.

And worse than the closed college set.

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, this school's in very rough shape. Again, their endowment is tiny. Basically zero endowment, right? Far smaller endowment even than the closed set. I mean, going to look at appropriations. They don't really have an endowment. So net tuition revenue. This is the interesting thing about this school. They may have a lifeline here. Looks like they've, I suspect I didn't double check this, but I, again, I could see this on the strategic compass. I suspect they've gone all in on online, invested heavily in that. So they have been able to prop up their net tuition revenue recently. Although it hasn't changed their deficits, that may be their strategy now. I'm sure their board is thinking, hey, well, we've been able to grow online. Let's just do that and see if we can be sustainable that way. Maybe worth a shot. I mean, you don't really have another choice, right? So there you go.

Once they've decided to go online only, they can't go back to brick and mortar.

Yeah, it's going to be tough. They're selling their campus, right? And you can see the property and equipment is down 30. They must have already sold some buildings. Yeah, certainly not probably maintaining them. Let's take a look at CapEx. Yeah, these are very low CapEx spends compared to depreciation.

Yeah.

Only one year above one. And I wonder, actually, since this is right when they announced that they're going to go online only, if they're just repairing the buildings they need to repair in order to get them ready to sell or something. Right.

They're washing the windows and carpets.

You, everybody's done it, right? You're going to sell your house like, oh, I got to go fix all this stuff that I just left for years. Um, so that could be the case there. But, uh, yeah, you know, this, this school is clearly, that's what it looks like, right? When, if your school looks like that, you can, you know, they're struggling. This one's struggling. They've admitted it. They're going online only. They're selling their campus. I hope they can survive online. This looks promising. Um, we'll have to see how this turns out for them. We'll see what their 2024 audit looks like, which apparently is not out yet. But yeah, that's what that looks like.

Interesting.

I'll kick it back to you, Gary, and see what you have.

So I have one question. Concordia, I always like it when we have a college on here that is doing so well financially. And in my anecdotal observation, Matt, is 1 out of 10, maybe 2 out of 10 fit in the same kind of category as Concordia. And it's neat to see that because so many struggle. A preponderance of the colleges we look at are struggling. But I noticed they had an expense trend. That was trending upward. And yet you said you're okay with that. I just wanted to follow up on that.

Yeah, I think I'm okay with it because so they had a big net income surplus. So if I were president, I'd say, hey, we shouldn't be running an 11% net income surplus. We should be investing our sort of profits back into the school and growing the school. And the way you're going to do that is to grow your expenses more than your revenues, just by definition there. So that doesn't bother me. The school's clearly growing. And so that if maybe they didn't, maybe the story I just told you is not what they did. Maybe they're just like, oh, we're going to grow and we're going to invest in all these other things. And that's exactly what I'm saying, right? They should be using that money to invest in the school. You're going to get a much better return if you do it right than, than just using that money to invest in the stock market or something, which was apparently what they were doing in the early part of that data set. So interesting.

A surprise for everybody, the first ever showing of the College Major Completion App. I'll show that here in a second. And as always, let's look at enrollment. And, you know, Andrews down a lot, 20% down over the last 8 reported years. This, of course, is data from IPEDS. The 2025 Private College Viability App will be out later this month. And Concordia, not only are they doing well financially, Matt, they're growing nicely, up over 30% over the last few years. And, you know, Naropa at up 10, that's, that's flat. Over 8 years. That's not really that much growth. That makes sense, like you said. It will be interesting to see if that number grows with an online focus that they have. We always look at graduation rates next. And again, here at College Viability, our minimum threshold— and it's being generous— is graduating 50% of your students over at least 4 years. And we really don't see that at all here, uh, you know, even Concordia doing well financially the graduation rate hovers around 40%, something like that. I don't know what to say. It's happened so many times. Andrews, kind of the middle 3 colleges that we have, is a little bit better. Naropa isn't even graduating students. You've heard me say before, Matt, if you can't even graduate 30% of your students, I make the tongue-in-cheek argument that you're not really a college. You're more of a tuition collection agency because colleges are in business, Matt, to graduate folks, not just to take their tuition dollars, have them attend classes, and then not graduate. We always look at coordinating with what Matt talks about. We'll look at tuition fee revenue. And again, you know, nobody's going to fall out of their chair here. Concordia is up $25, almost $26 million over the last 8 years. The other 2 colleges have losses. Again, Matt showed the net, the net income for both of these makes sense because their main source of revenue is down considerably over the last 8 years, down 10% really for about both of them. Just different numbers. And then from that, we take a look at the endowment. I mentioned, Matt mentioned that Naropa has a really small endowment. If you look at the bottom for Naropa there, in 2022 their endowment was $3 million. Matt said that's effectively zero. I, I say that's not even couch money, not even college couch money. That's not going to get you anything. Here at College Viability, our minimum— you can pick whatever minimum you want— is $50 million. Concordia is below that, but again, I have no issues with, with that because, like Matt shared, They are a cash operation and they're doing very, very well with that. And their endowment has grown nicely, up to $12 million, up 40% over the last 8 reported years. Very nicely done. And then to look at the parameters associated with students, let's look at admissions yield. And really, they're all in the same general category, not awful, not great. Anything below 20% is concerning. Really, all these hover around that. So the percentage of students that they admit who actually show up. Pretty consistent for all these, even though the numbers are down a little bit. Matt, you and I have talked about this. Admission yield is down for most colleges, in large part because it's so easy to make application to a college. I use the analogies like ordering another ingredient on your pizza. You check another box on the computer screen and you've applied to another college. And so with applications up, that percent yield has trended down across the country. You just look for big drops And that down 12, down 11% is pretty common for what I see. And then to make, to balance that out, I look at percent admitted. And this is interesting. I'm not even sure I believe this for Naropa because they're effectively admitting everyone who applies, absolute open enrollment. And again, I teasingly call that a heartbeat admissions policy. You'll have a heartbeat, they'll admit you. Andrews was interesting because they're all over the place. And it's possible in the last couple years, like we saw with Webster and Rushton and others, they have cash issues and they make the decision to go from admitting, being somewhat selective, Matt, to being almost non-selective at all. And we see that particularly at Andrews. Concordia, you know, interesting data here, data points, right? It just, they also are kind of all over the place. Be interesting to talk to them to see what the thought process was behind the variance up 40%, 40 points, and then down about 40 points over the last 8 reported years. That's— I'm not— I don't often see that. I've seen it before, but I don't often see that.

Yeah, I'll just say, like, in my experience, some schools seem to be quite rigid on their admissions policy, so they have specific rules about, you know, what, who they're going to admit and not going to admit. Other schools are a lot more flexible, and they're, they're trying to hit a target of a number of a certain number of admitted students regardless of how many apps you get, right? So then the, the percent admitted will float around based on how many apps you get. I think that second approach is better generally financially, but perhaps academically you're going to get classes that are— some are high achievers, some will be lower, right? You're going to get a lot more variability that way.

Okay. And so Matt, like, like I shared before we started recording today, this is the first ever public viewing. Of the 2025 College Major Completions app, and I've got it set up for our 3 colleges. But a little plug, this app, it'll be about available in the next week or so, um, includes every public and private 2- and 4-year college in the country and 63 of the most common majors. And what we have, and I'll show you in a second, is you can look at comparisons by major and you can look at comparisons by college. And what I've got set up is our 3 colleges We see Concordia, Andrews, and somewhere in here is Naropa. They don't have very many offerings on there. Here's one, Naropa, by major. So we can see that, you know, you can find one with a couple here. So mathematics, Andrews has 4 students who graduated in 2023 with a bachelor's in math, Concordia had 5. We can look at the market share for those. Let me go back up here and just show you. I'm just gonna select math. And the chart over here reflects market share. So for just these two colleges, not a good example, you can see the market share for both of these. And if you're doing a self-study and you're using this as a college and you want to compare your market share for things like math or any of the other 62 colleges, this actually breaks apart the market share user selected. This is just for our show today, but you could have 3, 4, 5, 10 colleges here. And see what market share they have in your region, in your country, and your— across the country as well, by any of those 63 common majors. And then we do the same thing by college. Now this time we have— this is more informative for our show today— we have each of our 3 colleges. So Andrews and Concordia are still up here. We can expand those. I know what happened. So here are all 63 majors. For the college of Sweetland Andrews University and all of the 63 majors that they offer. And this is across bachelor's degrees. We could do the same thing for master's degrees. The numbers will change. And that gives you a feel for what a college has for all the disciplines. The little graphic you see under market share for 2020, '21, '22, and '23 represents the percent of business administration at Andrews University. So 33% of all their master's degrees are in business administration. 29% in social work. We can do the same thing. Let's go down and look at Concordia. Let's go back to bachelor's just for a change of pace here. And for all the bachelor's at Concordia, we can see they're high, they're strong in psychology, they're strong in sports kinesiology. That's a nice niche. And they're strong in business administration. So anyway, Matt, this is for these colleges, the 3 that we're looking at today. It's representative, and it shows what the app will do But this is a much more powerful tool. And Matt, I'm not aware of anybody who has done it this way to give colleges— and I'll have a student and family version as well— a chance to compare what the majors are, both in terms of absolute numbers and market share. And it'll be a user-selected kind of view. And I'm really anxious, Matt, to get that out the door. What are your— what's your initial reaction to that?

Yeah, I think it's good. It's good advice. Uh, you know, if you want to be a math major, it's probably best to go to, uh, a school that is, you know, focused on that, has, has demonstrated that they're good at that and they have the resources. Uh, at least in theory, you would expect they'd have the resources if they graduate a lot of people in that major. Um, so yeah, I think it's good advice if you, if you already know your major. Yep.

Yeah. And even for the colleges themselves, we, we've seen last year and again already this year, cutbacks and layoffs. And for colleges themselves to look at this data and see where I'm strong, where am I strong? Where are there some course sharing opportunities, either online or face-to-face, or where do I need to cut? Are the options to look at. So anyway, Matt, you know, good show today. Um, 3 colleges, one doing really well, Concordia Saint Paul, just impressive. Saint Andrews has some opportunities. Naropa is going to struggle probably for, for the foreseeable future. And like we share every week, this is a data— this is a data generation, and the data has almost always been out there, Matt. It's just folks like you and I that are taking the data and making sense out of it using our own skills, our own background, our own experience to say, hey, don't take the word for colleges if you're a student or family member. Colleges, faculty, staff, community leaders, political leaders, you know, this kind of data will tell you whether the college in your region is doing well, like Concordia, like Pace University in New York, like Gannon University in Pennsylvania, University of Mary in South Dakota, all doing really strong. But also tells you what colleges you really need to be concerned about. And sadly, Matt, in this day and era, this day and age, there are way, way, way too many. And I'm sure as the show goes on, we're going to end up reflecting back on some of the colleges we've covered, and we're approaching 60 now in less than 7 months of doing the show, that we're going to go back and find some that we were right, that they just couldn't continue. And I think that will inform what you and I do in future shows if we're able to look back and say, hey, kind of we told you so, there's some value in that for those watching, watching this show. So again, for all those making time to listen, to watch the show on the recorded version, we're grateful for your time. If you'd like to have— if you'd like to join us for the show, if you'd like us to review your college for the show, drop me a note and there'll be contact information on the, on the recorded version of this. I'll be happy to reach out to you and have that conversation. For Matt Hendricks, I'm Gary Stocker. Thanks for joining us for the College Financial Health Show for January 21st, 2025. We'll be back next week with another show.