"Run The Code!" Regen 360, with David Gottfried — LBW 7.8

Welcome everybody. Welcome to Living Between Worlds for September 16th, 2026. I'm Gil Friend. I'm CEO of Natural Logic and executive coach to founders and senior leaders building businesses that serve life. I'm delighted to have you all here today and to welcome our special guest, David Gottfried. David, some of you know David was one of the people who built the operating system that made green building a category in the world, one of the founders of the US Green Building Council, of the LEED rating system. Rob Watson on the call with us is another early player in that world. David then went on to co-found the World Green Building Council, now in, David, what, 180 countries, I think?

Yes.

They have green building?

No, 85 GBCs. LEED is in 184 countries.

There you go. So, you know, worldwide phenomenon. And, you know, 30 years later, David is still running the same diagnostic kind of systems-based, protocols-based approach to this, running the same diagnostic of the system underneath the building universe and on himself. He's got a new book coming out a month from I guess this week at the USGBC conference. And it opens with an uncomfortable assessment that he made that buildings got better, but the operating system beneath them did not. As David puts it, civilization is still running version 1.0. It counts everything except life. So we're gonna have an open conversation about David's personal journey as well as the work that he's done and the Earth Codes that he's proposing in the new book, Regen 360. So, David, welcome to the call. Glad to have you here.

Thanks for having me, and thanks everyone for being here despite the weather in Spain.

Well, we're not going to quote My Fair Lady today. Anybody who does gets thrown off the call. So, Give us a little window into why this book now. What, you know, sort of, you know, you've been on a powerful trajectory for several decades building systems, building protocols, building organizations, building movements really. And now you're looking at a very different kind of movement. So give us a window into what happened to you and what, how did you respond to that?

How many hours do you have?

5 minutes. And then so just to frame it for Everybody will— a little introduction from you, David. Ken and I will dialogue with you for a bit, usually about probably about 20 minutes. Then we'll open it up to the room for your comments, questions, and thoughts and so forth. And then what we usually do is go into, into breakouts. So in small groups of 3 or 4 people, so you'll— so that everybody has a chance to think and talk actively together about the themes that are raised here. And then we'll come back again to harvest those breakouts and share and close together. So give us a— give us kind of the quick summary.

Yeah, so, uh, and you've acknowledged Rob Watson, who was our chair of LEAD and coined the term. We also have Jim Hartzfeld here, who was one of our chairs of USGBC and helped us grow. It's not about me. We all built this together, and what we did is bigger than all of our biggest dreams. The GBC model spreading around the world, the LEED in most of the world, but also the other rating systems of the Green Building Councils, BREEAM, Green Star, CASB, China has 3-star. If you add them all up, it's $1 trillion of green buildings. It's really the best initiative on Earth to turn the ship, but the ship is, uh, on an ocean that's rising and heating up and acidic. And the floods, the hurricanes, the fires— my high school burnt down in the Palisades, my camps in Malibu burnt down. At the same time, the aquifers are draining and all these other things are still going on. I kept staring at the slope of CO2, and it's a steady slope, and it looks like that for decades. Maybe it would have been this if it wasn't for us, because we're doing great. Uh, but a lot of lead, which is phenomenal. We had a start. And when you start, you start with less bad. And then we dreamed of net zero, where the Paris Agreement is supposed to take us, though most countries aren't in alignment, including ours. But at some point, you gotta go into the positive of pulling the CO2 out to replenishing the aquifers and move. And we're just not hitting it with urgency enough.

on Earth.

And we are celebrating our successes, but it's, it's like a big bathtub and it's been spilling over and the water's everywhere flooding and causing all these disasters. And we're slowly bailing some of the water, we're slowly turning the faucet, and even if we get the faucet off, the bathtub's full, the water's flooded everywhere. We're not getting there in time. We're still dropping bombs on heads, and that behooves me. We're still divided in our country and the world. And we worked on buildings. Buildings moved over to health with Well and FitWell. But I want to go deeper. I want to go into the human brain, into the wiring, that survival wiring that's killing us. We need new wiring with plasticity. And now even AI as a governance system. AI for good, so we can move from the hot amygdala, which is primitive, wants to kill, hoard, greed, ego, and move over to the prefrontal cortex that's more logical. So I, I want to go deeper because we're not there yet. We have the best model on Earth. I'm proud of it. It's phenomenal. But the policies, the carrots and sticks, we got to go deeper. And I want to go into the human soul because I feel like we left that out of the equation. There's a net worth equation, there's a self-worth equation, but there's no net soul worth equation.

So what does that mean, David? Soul worth?

It's your assets and liabilities, but as a human.

Okay.

What's the assets you put into the world? You know, Rob chaired the LEAD Committee. He was at NRDC. He was pumping good and care into the world. We're all recycling, we're driving EVs or walking, we're working on products and services, certainly the building industry, that are lessening CO2, water waste, improving health. There are all these areas that we can measure our footprint, net footprint as humans. But I was hospitalized last year for 5 days and I watched the nurses and the good they put. There's a nurse's code. And so yeah, we make money, but does the dollar we make lessen ecological footprint? Are we grateful? Are we appreciative? Are we gardeners who plant seeds that pull, grow and pull CO2 out of there and kick out fresh oxygen? But do you do it pervasively? around the map of your life and sphere of influence and impact.

So this is a big shift from sort of tangible, measurable, physical stuff, the world of engineering, of artifacts, of buildings and machines and so forth where you can measure things. How do you— I mean, you're stepping into a realm that I'll say defies measurement, maybe shouldn't be measured. How do I measure good, worth, feelings, emotion, relationship? Are you proposing that we get analytical about those intangibles? Or if not, then what?

I am an engineer and I love spreadsheets and numbers and equations. Some of that is measurable. It's the good you put in the world. So if you're an architect, a contractor, what kind of buildings do you design? You know, we'd have Gensler saying all our buildings meet LEED Gold, or even Google says that. So some things, the things you make, the products and services you provide, are measurable. The things you pump out there, you can look at the ecological footprint, the lifecycle assessment, the embodied carbon. But as you move softer into empathy and care and love and spirit. And running a podcast like you, Gil, and Ken, you know, you care about your people. This is all for care. How do you measure that? That's more difficult, and some of it's soft, but it still can be listed as assets and liabilities. The liabilities are the things that harm. The assets are the things that do good. It's just the world of good could be spiritual and it could be physical.

Seems to me this is very subjective territory, but that's not necessarily a bad thing because just the, you know, just the act of bringing these kinds of questions to consciousness so that I individually, each of us individually, can reflect on it and ask those questions about what am I doing, where do my actions contribute or not? That in itself seems valuable, even if I can't put a number on it. David Grosso posted in the chat, like, you know, can pretty much everything be put on a scale from 1 to 5? And Ken said, I certainly hope not. Where are you on a question like that?

It's hard. Some of those are hard. How do you— 1 to 5, do you love? How do you define that? And who? What's your boundaries? 1 to 5, Are you empathetic? How do you define it? What are the boundaries? So, but even asking the question, it didn't have to be rated, but it should be listed. We should teach it and pull it into the educational systems.

I—

my mentor first was my dad. He's taught a lot about net worth and assets and growth. He was a management consultant. Self-worth, he, he had a big one, and ego was very present. He didn't talk about soul worth at all. It didn't really exist. Love wasn't a word coming out of his mouth till later in life when he was sick. And after he passed, I spent 3 days in the garage in Los Angeles clearing out all his files. I saw he was giving 30 donations a year. He had his own little foundation Giving to his alma mater, giving to the Red Cross, giving to Angel Flight. So he's very generous. The temple had our name on the garden, but they weren't talked about as much, and it wasn't cultivated enough.

Well, I think, you know, the self-reflection that's invited here You know, whether it's a 1 to 5, as David Grossoff was suggesting, or just, you know, me asking myself, how am I doing? Am I doing better than yesterday? Am I doing better or worse than last year? Am I making progress on the things that I care about? Am I giving the attention and commitment to those things? You know, I can see that that could matter and really open up internal movement by having that reflection. But let me zoom out for a bit here, and then, Ken, I want to turn it over to you for your thoughts. I mean, the big move you're making here is from, is from engineering, developing protocols for external engineering systems, shifting the focus from not just, not just codes and practices, not just policy, but the personal behavior.

Is—

do you feel that's the missing piece in getting us from the 1.0 not enough to enough? Does, does that engagement of the individual soul worth reflection? Do you feel confident that moves the needle? Is that why you're doing this?

It's—

that's only one slice, but I, I do want to look at every person on Earth, stare them right in the eyes, and map out— and we might do this in our breakout— your sphere of influence. It starts with self. Body, mind, and spirit. And it's not just soul worth, but it's impact and the good you put out into the world, which I call hope capital H O P E health on planet Earth. Do you as an individual living here, consuming resources, improve hope health on planet Earth, starting with mind, body? And spirit. Moving to your next sphere of influence, your family. Who's in your home? Your dog. I got a dog on my foot. And then outside the front door is your community, neighbors. You might commute to work or work at home. Products and services, culture at home, at work, in, uh, organizations, then we have country and world. And I want to go through each of those tiers of the sphere of influence, but start here, which is the individual front and center. And a lot of people in the podcast say this is Civilizational 2.0, I'm gone for— that's way too big. You guys did lead and you're everywhere, too big. I'm worried about my bills. What the hell do I do? I'm worried about my health. Well, you could do a lot, and you could start with a personal inventory in these areas, your assets and your liabilities in the giving less harm, more hope category.

So you've taken that approach, which a lot of people talk about in a similar way, and you've translated that into codes. Into some protocols that individual people can use in those different spheres of influence.

Yes, it's called Run the Code, and there are 15 of them. And this was developed through one year— excuse me— of chatting with Zenobia, who's my ChatGPT agent, but one year of dog walks in the morning of surveying everything this human David has seen in life and having volleys. Why don't people— why don't we treat Earth as home? What's wrong with us? And it would reply. I would save those and transcribe them. And it— its reply. And then, you know, I hit it over the net, it sent a spin back. I hit it back over with topspin, it sent a fast, hard hit at my face. We would do this until there's nothing left to discuss. Those volleys, when the game ended, was called a nugget. I ended up with 200 nuggets on topics from care to being a dad to green building to the economy to regulations to governance to AI. And it was 2,600 pages.

Wow.

And that got synthesized into 15 codes.

Interesting process. Ken, step on in while you still have power.

Yeah, we're getting some really big thunder here and the lights have flickered a few times. So, um, there's too many places to start. Uh, with regard to what you just said, David, you know, I think about the fact that I recently downsized. I went from a 2-bedroom apartment, you know, to a 500-square-foot apartment now. I'm in a city. I no longer have a car. I can take public transit everywhere. I've dramatically lowered my carbon footprint. But when I look at my lifetime carbon footprint, including learning to drive at 15 and driving my father's Cadillac V8 engine with this, you know, huge engine and just all the carbon I burned up, compared to someone who lives in what is euphemistically called the developing world, or might be called the non-extractive world, I have an enormous carbon footprint. So, you know, I've already done enormous harm in my life, and nothing I can do in my remaining years will make up anywhere near the amount of carbon that I've used. And it seems like there's a— at the level of the individual, it's really hard to balance this because we have cultures, extractive cultures, developed culture as Vanessa Andriotti calls it the Global North. And there's the Global North and the Global South, the Global South and the Global North. But the Global North people live really large, run up all this carbon bill, and then say, but I'm doing good work. And I'm not pointing fingers, I'm just saying we have to factor this in. So when you say going through each of these, I can do a lot of being a kind person, helping out friends, being kind to people, but—

I'm not saying you can't.

My overall footprint to date has already made a big dent that shouldn't have been there if I'd been born in another era. How do I balance that?

But you can calculate or estimate your personal carbon footprint over your entire life. It's not that hard. You can offset it 10x better than you've done even 100x. So, Feeling like it's too big and it's too late is wrong.

When you say offset, how do I offset it? I mean, most carbon offsets are not worth the paper you put it on.

Well, start with solar, direct— put direct solar on your home. Start with that. You've already downsized. That's good. And use public transit, which you told me you do. You could start walking. But there are levels of offsets. Some are kosher and others aren't. But you can, you could do what we did, you know, you could build nonprofits and organizations and get thousands to do it. You can get all your listeners to do it. So your sphere of influence looks like that, even though you start with yourself.

Yeah, I'm, I'm not attempting to argue with any of those points. I agree with them all. What I'm saying is that those of us in the Global North have an enormous footprint that has been run up, especially in the last 50 years. And I don't think many people are aware of that. And I don't think many people are actually doing that much about it. They may say, oh, I've switched from an internal combustion engine to a hybrid or a Prius or whatever it is, you know, but they're, they're not taking account into the big picture, which you have done an enormous amount with, you know, Spearheading green building probably made a huge, huge dent, but we need like 1,000 to get there.

We're trying to plant the seed, but the seed is education. It's incentives. It's carrots and sticks. It's regulation. It's penalties. It's the whole thing. Tax credits. Um, you guys are moderators, but I see Rob has a hand up.

I don't No, please.

But you got on mute.

There you go. Yeah, no, I mean, David's exactly right that this is, you know, it's a systems issue. You know, in terms of— I don't think about my carbon footprint at all. I focus on my carbon shadow. That's not a term that's very often used, and some people point out that not everybody can have a carbon shadow, i.e., you know, the work that you do reduces carbon in other areas. one day of LEED would take care of 100 lifetimes of my carbon footprint. So like, I literally do not think about my carbon footprint at all. I mean, I do, I do think about it, but I don't worry about it. And, you know, I think, you know, right now our egonomic system forces us to focus on the deterministic mechanistic things. And, you know, David noted the potential of AI to, you know, play a role in this. And I think If we were to create an ethonomic system where the physical impacts of a transaction were the basis of the pricing of the impact and the basis of allocating wealth and resources and stuff like that, I think the problem would solve itself. I think AI can give us the tools to get to that point. But I mean, it's not going to happen overnight. The economics started by trading colored beads. So we need to start conceiving of that next paradigm and then moving towards a system that can create wealth by doing good for everybody. And forget anything you know about isms. None of the isms work anymore. All they do is govern the speed at which we go off the cliff. So, this is a completely new paradigm, and we don't have a lot to talk about it. I think David is spot on with looking at the soul aspect of it, because that's the foundation that's missing from AI is the soul. And if we had a soul, then we could layer the transactional pieces on top of it, and hopefully avoid the kind of greed trap that we're in now. So, pardon me for going on, but—

No, it's great. And the question is, we all have this soul. I have David and Aaron. Aaron's my middle name. Aaron painted that painting. Aaron writes the books. Aaron dreamed of the Green Building Council. David, and through his influence of his father Ira, wanted to trademark the councils, wanted to own them personally. To boost the net worth, the self-worth. But Aaron wanted to help create it together and give it away. And it's service versus greed and ego versus you know it's the we versus the us or I versus me. Well, I'm sorry, I versus us. Gil will know that there's that book of Jewish scholar. I and Thou, I think it's called.

Martin Buber.

Yeah.

And, um, but we don't cultivate it. And Aaron was locked in a prison inside David for decades and just kept— David kept saying, shut up, leave me alone. David— Aaron wanted to be a creative writer in college, and I'm at Stanford I'm pre-med. I want to quit because I, I, I've passed out in a surgery watching as a volunteer. I go to Dad Ira and say, I want to quit pre-med. I really love writing and reading. I want to be a creative writer. And he said, that's fine, son, but you'll have to go to the local community college. I'm not going to pay. So I became an engineer.

Wow.

And, and that poor guy Aaron got locked up until 40s, I started finally writing Greed to Green. And this painter, Aaron, came out at 50. And they're just soul expressions. But along with that is care and love and giving away, not owning, and caring. It's just caring about others. And I volunteer in martial arts, and Saturday I help kids under 7, and I don't get paid, but it's— I cherish it, just the giving and being of service. And we don't teach that enough. It's all, you know, economics and run the IRR, the net present value, and grow, grow, grow at all costs. But one of the costs is imprisoning that soul.

Thank you, Brent, and then Jane. Thanks for Thanks.

So I wanted to reflect on some of the stuff you were saying because I'm in the unusual position that I haven't done the math, but I probably have a negative lifetime carbon footprint. I'm an engineer, and in 1999, 2000 era, I abandoned aerospace to go work in energy and green buildings. I've followed the path that you laid out, David. I spent 20 years in the HVAC industry. I've worked for Taylor Engineers and Integral Group. I've written standards for ASHRAE. You know, I've commissioned millions of square feet of lab building. I mean, that's more carbon there than I could probably consume in my entire lifetime if I was trying, just because the way the numbers add up. And through all of this, you know, the pattern that I've seen is, is really reflects what Rob was saying. If the incentives were aligned, aligned, and that means both carrots and sticks, these problems would largely sort themselves out. And I honestly don't think we need AI even to do that. We just need smart people who are allowed to operate within a set of incentives that are actually pro-life rather than anti-life. And at the end of the day, it's very hard for me to see any of this as anything other than a problem of politics and power. And especially now when you have a distinct social movement that is overtly anti-empathy. You know, that's the world that we're in right now. How do we respond to that? I don't see how— I've been on this path for almost 30 years, and I can try to keep getting better, but I don't see myself making the world better in doing that. So I'm trying to figure out how to respond to that.

Good, good, good. Behind most doors of action is fear. Fear of being left out, fear of not having enough, fear of death, fear of the tiger catching us, fear of freezing. And it's, it's the elephant in the room that's not didn't have a seat at the table to calm. But with incentives and policies, you're, you're right, you reorient it. So fear, I won't have enough money— if you reward and incentivize, you will if you, you do good. But we do still have this amygdala, and it's primitive and hot, and it gets triggered even if the carrots and sticks align. And all of a sudden, that's more rational and logical and Uh, it can be articulated, but still we cross over and that primitive caveman shows up and we do stupid things. And I think we need help there. This is why technology's evolved faster than humans, and humans are stuck. Our evolution is too slow for the future. And some of that evolution is doing exactly what you said, Brent. is getting it right. That's what I'm saying, that 1.0 needs to move to the 2.0, which is every policy regulation instead of carrot stick rewards hope, health on planet Earth. But why don't we do it? Greed, ego, fear, and fear. But we still need help to move over into the rational logic, and I do think AI could help If it's programmed right and has governance to— I'm in my car, the Tesla now has Grok, and the dude cuts me off. And I'm in my EV being Joe Green, and he cuts me off and the amygdala gets triggered and I take those little toggles and I'm shooting missiles at him, even though I want to be perfect and green. And my heart's racing, the cortisol's flying. And Grok could say, okay, chill, relax, breathe. That's not who you want to be. Who cares? It could help me go from sympathetic nervous system to parasympathetic, and we need help.

Shane Byrd, and then George. You're on mute, Shane.

Thank you. It's really gratifying and humbling to be with this group of people, in particular LEED founders, because once upon a time when I was following living architecture very closely, I had this notion that we should redefine and extend LEED to something I called LEAF, Leadership in Ecosystems Applications and Functions. That the process of living architecture would bring people, modern people, into proximity with more and more of nature. And you can't know or defend or care for what you don't know, what you don't have knowledge and experience with. Very well. And, um, that's one thing I'm, I'm humbled to see— engineers coming home to soul. Engineering needs ensoulment. And, um, I, I see a lot of things the Chinese engineers are doing that are full of soul, full of human caring about what happens ecologically to China and the, and the globe. And they're part of it. I recall how Kat Anderson, the author and historian of California Indians, what we called our natural wild landscapes were heavily managed ecosystems involving primeval peoples who understood how to how to be symbiotes of their environment, how to, how to be in symbiosis with nature. The whole eastern forests of, of, of America were intensely managed, uh, forests, uh, by the native peoples. And we used to be ecological engineers once upon a time. That's the message. So this is a remembrance of human function with Earth. Uh, not necessarily a stark invention of something totally new and overwhelming. So I feel, um, that we're in a cultural struggle because for me, at the core of a human being is what it means to be a human being has a lot to do, perhaps everything, with who and what you identify with, what you identify yourself as being. How you define your being. What is your being? And if you see your interest the same as the diversity of animals and plants in your environment, you act to take care and to understand those interactions. Um, people have lost that meaning because people are cut off from nature, and people, people Um, people get lost in a sense that this is just machinery, and people like engineers are experts in the machinery. This is where engineers have an enormous cultural opportunity to help people recognize that the ecosystem processes They keep the Earth spinning along as a good biosphere, a good place to live with good temperatures and climate. That's natural engineering going on. And for engineers to start emulating the engineering of nature is what has to happen. Being better climatologists and understanding soil carbon sponges and the water retention of soil and its relationship to The ability of trees to transpire properly and release particles, bacteria, from their leaves that allow raindrops to coalesce and allow rain cycles to happen. All of that stuff, that is love in action. There is no other meaning of love than what keeps life. We're a living being. And Consciousness may have come first. There's a cultural debate going on in intellectual circles over whether matter arises from consciousness or whether, whether consciousness— whether matter generates consciousness. Apart from that debate, our practical human experience of love is caring for what taken care of. And people do that naturally. The disasters that we're facing call forth the very best in humans trying to help each other. And it seems that we only learn through suffering. Ultimately, we're on a kind of learning curve of experiencing things. And passing on the memories of those experiences and the lessons learned. And each generation struggles with a new set of conditions or variations and is on its own learning curve. We have to learn how to rehydrate California. People are working on it. Walter Yenny from Australia is bioclimatologist and soil biologist. travels up and down California occasionally helping people understand the relationship between droughts and floods and what we can do to manage what we plant in the bar ditches up and down the thousands of miles of California's agriculture, what we can plant there that would drastically shift the odds in favor of good climate for California.

Yeah.

That's just in our bioregion. So there's There's a tremendous opportunity of love that's measurable. That's my final point to you, David. Biodiversity is measurable. It's not a vague thing. It's measurable. Engineers can get their teeth into it. And biodiversity becomes a standard of what's life-promoting or not. Is this development policy? Is this project? Going to dumb life down or enhance it?

You've nailed it. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Jane.

You— Thank you. Thank you.

You articulated everything we think and need to hear. And this 2.0, and you said it, the words, Jane, is of nature. And see, we forgot that we are of nature. And a lot of the 2.0 is a return. It's a return to some of the first world teachings, the 7th generation. It's a return that we don't own the land, the rivers, the air. It's a return that we are, as being of nature, we don't own and kill everything else as a supermarket. And so we're lost. We're lost. We're lost. And the machine took over. Just beautiful. I love your, your LEAP also. Thank you so much.

Yeah, thank you.

You know, David, I've been— thank you, Jane, for that. And you guys should talk about LEAP sometime, David and Rob, maybe. I'm struck. I've been in the sustainability game as long as you, probably a little bit longer. And for a lot of that, I've been focused on making the business case for sustainability, convincing economic institutions that it makes economic sense to be responsible and good stewards and all that. And the last few years I've been asking, living in a very different question, and it's in line with what you're both talking about here, which is what might it be like if we did business and did everything else as though we actually belong to the living world? Because we actually do. So what might it be like if we acted as if that were so? And for me, all the rest of the story unfolds from that, including all the stuff, David, that you've been writing about here. George Mokri, thanks for your patience. What you got?

I started Daniel Goleman's old book, Emotional Intelligence, this morning. And So it's apt. And one of the things that he starts out talking about is the amygdala. And evidently, your sensorium goes— has a backdoor into the amygdala that activates at the same time that the sensorium activates the neocortex. So the amygdala is seeing stuff and feeling stuff at the same time that the neocortex is and can hijack it. People have been talking about martial arts, and I do martial arts as well, and also damaged from it. But one of the things that happens on the mat is that you learn not to go with your first. You practice so that you're not raising everything up to your chest when you're attacked, that you can put it down into your center. So the things that you're talking about are part of the tradition of wisdom from the very beginning, particularly in the East with meditation practices and martial arts practices and things like that. And tai chi is also very good for us old people. But there are ways to train this stuff that are there historically, and there's a long tradition of doing that. And there are helpers who can bring that back into our industrial society because we really need it. But we're not going to get rid of the amygdala. We may be able to to train it not to be such a hair trigger when it's unnecessary to be a hair trigger, to overrule it when we can. But we're not going to get rid of that.

Yeah, and 4 of us mentioned martial arts. I wrote a chapter in this new book called The Dojo OS, for operating system. And what did we learn on the mat? What did these 3-year-olds— they walk in, they bow. The instructor comes, they bow. We're all Mr. or Miss, even if you're 4. And when the instructor talks, and the kids, like, they're like, eyes on me, what did I say? And they're teaching respect. They don't let them quit. When they're like playing with their friend and they got their belt like this, they start hitting them with their belt. You know, are you here to learn? Otherwise you might have to leave. And these kids— we have a new instructor, 14, and I have to bow to him, but he earned it. And he's lovely and he's prolific. And these are stewards. But there is this ancient system there. That we could learn from for regeneration, because regeneration is rooted in respect.

Rob, you've spoken already. Can we go to Anna first? Then we'll come back to you and Philip, if that's okay. Anna. Is your mic on? There we go.

Good morning, everybody. I'm in Aotearoa, New Zealand. And I just, you know, from my heart, thank you all for your input. And look, I've been working for 15 years with the indigenous people out here. And just listening to you all, I think that what we've possibly created together is a new currency. It is a scale, and it's been named by an elder, an Indigenous elder, and it's called Tu Mai Tu Atu, which is cause and effect. And the key focus of it is to ensure that agriculture has a shift. Away from overfertilization. And it's tethered to one of the Planetary Health Check boundary overshoots, actually the longest one, the one in the deepest in the red zone. So we have a whole program here, a mitigation strategy to start reversing that. And I've been able to educate the Indigenous people around soil chemistry, that fosters working with nature, not over-fertilizing to damage nature. And in a nutshell, that means we either farm and fertilize to feed the world using a fertilization technique that has the correct chemistry in place. And for 80 years, agriculture has not been doing that. So I just want to, you know, the word hope You say hope, you know, what is on either side of hope? You know, faith, hope, and love. So we need faith. And I've had a huge journey, my own journey of faith, and things have happened to me spiritually with the land. I've got no choice but to, you know, commit— I've committed my whole life to this and working with the Indigenous people. We have a mitigation strategy for that and we have a tool and the scale is from 10 to 0 and it's modular. Soil health, animal health, there's a social component out here. You know, we got done by colonisation. We being all of us, not just the Māori people, but, you know, colonisation, domination. We're on a huge decolonisation pathway here as well as we come back to what you said here, respect is at the heart, and that's Matthew 7:12, the Golden Rule, you know, treat others how you yourself want to be treated. So just to finish this introduction to what I'm talking about, an Elder that I've been working with who's named this, I believe possibly what I'm hearing today, this new currency, Because I've been able to work out how we can tweak the 530-year-old global accounting system to take this into there and have that shift after 532 years of use as well to be transactional. You know, someone said we need to be doing transactions that we know are healing. And so this scale, 10 to 0, the closer you are to 0, the least disturbance that you are giving the natural life of that soil. the populations of that soil, the microbial, the bacteria and fungi, because that's the massive disconnect. The elder who I spoke to when I, you know, I shot up to see him so quickly when I saw the planetary health check and that overshoot, because it's chemistry. It's out, but it can be corrected, and it could be quite a swift healing process that takes place.

Mm-hmm.

And he said to me, Annamayn, The West are so disconnected. And I said to him, Hori, yes, it's up to us to help guide that reconnection to nature and to respect and give empathy to everything. So I'll just finish with this. So aroha, faith, hope, and love. In the Māori culture out here, I asked him to translate aroha, which is commonly called love. And he said to me, In a main, aroha is the outward compassion for all living things.

Yeah.

So we have Western science at the heart of the scale, and we have our virtues and relationship building in it as well. For a New Zealand farmer to get to zero, they have to have a relationship with the ancestral people that were on that piece of land before colonization took place. And so I've got a lot of support from Indigenous people with this. tool. The Indigenous people here are going to talk to the Indigenous people in Australia. They're going to talk to the Indigenous people in America. So we have a movement here. So I just wanted to get that across, that there is hope. And thank you for all your work. And if anybody wants to get in touch with me, please do. But damn nice what's happening here.

Yeah, thank you so much, Anna. Compassion. The Dalai Lama would tell us that compassion is a fine place to start. Everything can build on that. If you want people to get in touch with you, put your contact information in the chat, if you would. And if there's anything about that tool that you can share, links or anything that we could share, we'd love to see that. So thank you for that. Rob and Philip, thank you for waiting. Rob, you next.

I don't think Phil has spoken yet, so I think just Yeah, I'll go, I'll go after Phil.

Great.

Well, thank you, Rob. Um, you know, just kind of reflecting on what Jane pointed to, the importance of our identity and how we think about ourselves, and observing how all these dualistic structures are major, do a lot of structural work for our modern identities. And we talk, you know, in particular, think of how we need to return to nature, what would it be like to think of ourselves as part of it, you know, as if we just aren't? And, you know, it's just a symptom of the identity abuse that we've been subjected to by being born into these discursive circumstances. But I think that one part of it that's still coming through pretty clearly, or, you know, we've heard it a lot today, if we're trying to return to nature or treat ourselves as if we are actually part of it, then I think a big part of that has to be coming to the defense of the amygdala to some degree. I had a friend who was a— he worked at Bell Labs and worked at BBN and MIT, and his— he was a systems scientist, and he— but he really devoted his whole life to trying to understand how learning worked because he wanted to make computers better at being learning facilitators. And in the course of that, he developed this thing he called the Theory of Emotions and Learning, where he became pretty convinced that all human learning is fundamentally driven by emotionality, that emotions are not the noise that needs to get out of the way. They are, in fact, the signal that drives the entire process. And, you know, for what that means in terms of empathy and everything else, I guess it just— We're looking at those around us who we want to— who we evaluate as lashing out, letting their amygdala take control, whatever. Finally, these are people who are hurting. And they are— their pain is a truth that we can learn from. And I think, you know, There's so much involved in trying to sort of like move ourselves past the dualistic thinking of our times. But, uh, I think particularly when it comes to questions of value, it's worth pointing out that we talk about it as if it's this singular thing. But really, like, if you look at our organism and what it does when it seems to be valuing things, there's at least 3 different modes in which we do it. We, we value stuff intrinsically just by like feeling, and we value stuff extrinsically by evaluating how well things work. And we evaluate things systemically by, like, you know, an idea is good to me specifically because it allows me to understand or predict or to create a— make meaning in some way. And these types of valuing, they're all different, but they are definitely not independent. They are interdependent. And it's all based on our feelings first, and then what we're trying to do second, and then how we think about it. finally always has to account for how we feel about it and what we're doing about it. And so maybe that's a framework. That's something I'm totally stealing from this guy, Robert Hartmann. But I think thinking about value as if it's not all one thing, just because we decided to talk about it that way, can really help us tease out what kinds of problems we're actually trying to address and what order we need to address them in. Because finally, we are just these organisms that just work this way. And, you know, we could ask whether it's worth surviving or not. We could ask what the conditions are whereby we want the species to keep going. And maybe there are some people in the world who fancy a future where this species is not part of it. But if the species is going to be part of it, it's worth acknowledging how we actually work and what we're actually doing. Uh, when we're doing the project of talking and thinking about it.

Thank you, Philip. Ken, if you're not going to call on yourself, I'm going to call on you.

Okay.

Weather's calmed down a little bit. Um, so I want to also speak about the amygdala for a second because I realized that pretty much everything that's been said about the amygdala, it comes from a very male And I learned a few years ago there's a female side to the amygdala, which is called tend and befriend.

Yeah.

Women look and they see, wow, there's a threat over there and it's not going away. Well, let's investigate. Let's go talk. Let's go find out, what do you want here? Let's first, before we go do that, let's make sure those who are in the room and with us are taken care of. Do people need blankets? Do they need a hug? Do they need to be fed?

Are they?

Can we calm their amygdalas down? Now let's go talk to that guy or that that being or that's jacking up our amygdala and say, "What are you here for? What do you want from us?" So the tend and befriend tends to be very short shrift in the male consciousness, but it's very strong in the female consciousness of. And I look at the women in my life that I know, and I see this all the time. I'll look at somebody and I'll go, "Oh, that." And they're like. No, no, no, you gotta, you gotta grant them legitimacy and you have to understand where they're coming from and you have to talk to them. And I'm like, I need you to do that for me, you know, because it's really freaking hard as a guy. But it is very, very real. And I just want to put it out there that, you know, a lot of us here are men and we need to be aware that there's other ways of doing things besides the male way.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for that, Ken. Like George said before, this stuff takes practice. You have a body that's learned responses and reflexes in a lifetime and in a cultural history. And it takes repetitive physical practice, training, rewiring the nervous system and reflexes and so forth to be able to cultivate different kinds of responses that what you're saying are innately there as possibility. Right. What the amygdala is doing, as I understand it, is it's an early— it's an anomaly early warning system. Like, oh, something's different here. What do I need to do? Maybe I need to run away. Maybe I need to fight. Maybe I need to tend to befriend. But amygdala gets a bad name. We really need evolutionarily, we need the function that says, wait a minute, something's different. Pay attention. and then act appropriately. And that's where we're goofed up. The act appropriately has been hijacked. And, you know, for those of us who are martial artists, we learn that gradually in our personal physical bodies on the mat over years. The big question, I think, David, this is where your book is pointing at, is how do we re— how do we learn those things as a culture? How do we, as, you know, social beings in social relationship, develop different pathways and different responses and different reflexes? Together. It's a big challenge. Rob, you've been very patient. Let's go back to you.

Thanks. Yeah. So, you know, I think the amygdala thing is kind of, you know, riffing on Winston Churchill. You know, first we build our buildings, then our buildings shape us. Well, you can say the same about systems. First we shape our systems, then our system Systems shape up, shape us. We look at the news system, and you know everything is bad news. I think that's a fantastic thing. Everybody says, "Oh, it's everything's crazy." It's like, yes, five people were murdered today, but eight billion four hundred thirty-two thousand you know million people were not murdered today, right? So if it's news, it's unusual, and we forget that the system shaping us. You know Dana Meadows. If you haven't read 12 Ways to Leverage a System, literally the best 35 pages on environmental anything anywhere of all time. She says the best thing to do to change our world is to change our minds. Of the 12 things, we spend most time in 9, 10, 11, 12, which are very high-touch, low-result things, as opposed to things that are much more abstract about transcending paradigms and changing the way we think and all those things. That's what changes things. That's where we need to go. And our systems are not allowing us to do that. We need to begin developing systems that force us to think in ways where we are not the center of the universe. Egonomics, all of the isms are structurally incapable of solving our problems. Structurally incapable. Why? A, they only apply to humans. We need a system that integrates all species. And in order to do that, we get— because, and when we discount things to zero, whether they're costs or benefits, to, you know, essentially to zero within a generation, we are structurally incapable of making the right decision. We will never, ever, ever, ever do it. And so we need systems that can allow us to make the right decision, at least potentially. So box off.

Okay, thank you. We always have a closet full of soapboxes here for these calls. We can trot them out as needed. Nitin, greetings.

Hey there. Great to be back here. Thank you for hosting this conversation. David, 2 things that are maybe coming up as themes and some things I've been also thinking about and writing about is this. The first part is around our separation from the recognition of life as sacred. And, you know, then how we go about treating life when we don't recognize as such. And so a lot of the default behavior we see in our world today and our geopolitical economic systems are shaped with that absence, with that separation of sacredness. And the second bit I see a lot is this culture of more. We're like, we're so inbred in this culture of more. And our marketing is a perfect example of it. It's always trying to sell you the next thing, create the need, create the desire, drive the emotions, use the emotions against the human to continue to fuel the system. And that part, I feel like, yeah, there's a lot of work needed there to like drive up You know, a person's recognition consciousness to say, okay, when do I reach enough? And even for those that have plenty, when do they reach enough? And when do they, you know, start stop reaching for more purely as a symbol of some outward way of proving success or enough, you know, social status, etc., etc. There's there's so many aspects there. I haven't done the thorough work like you have. I also write about these things, but I'm curious to hear, based on the book that you're writing, how this relates to some of the conversations you were having. And what are some— are there certain codes? Are there certain principles you've discovered that could help society navigate this?

Thank you. Love what you said, and you hit the heart of it. We don't treat life as sacred, and that's at the bullseye of everything. And as Rob said, it's not just our life, everything else here, living and non-living. Certain non-livings are sacred. They can't be replaced. And that's the bullseye that I, I call it the value rings. That's at the bullseye. And the next ring here is life-sustaining. Life's a bullseye. How do you sustain it? Fresh air, water, soil, safety, food. And then out at ring 7 might be my road bike or my snowboard. You don't want value ring 6 to kill life. The hierarchy is always broken the way we do it. But in the 15 codes, it's trying to get way outside the engineer into that third leg of the stool. I'll just give you a flavor. Uh, it starts with, if it destroys life, then it is false. And we talk about currency and value. Nothing should be a currency. Currency should reflect value. Wealth should reflect value. And value should have at the bullseye the sanctity of life. And so, so many things are false. There's another one: truth equals oxygen. So much is not true— the words, the science— and we hide. We don't— we're afraid of speaking truth a lot of the time for the fear of harm. I can't say that, I'll get fired. I can't say that, I'll hurt the person. We're always afraid of the consequences, so we hide. And we've been hiding on this Earth for a long time, since— certainly since the Industrial Revolution. We're hiding the pollution, we're hiding the statistics. And there's a whole hierarchy. But, you know, there's love equals regeneration. It has to start and end with love. And where is that in the equation?

Yeah, thank you.

And you had your hand up. Just a reminder to everybody, it helps us if you use the Zoom raise hand function, so we see yellow hand, and otherwise we might miss you for a while. So my apologies, and go ahead, Jane.

Um, there's a part of you and me known as Albania. And the Albanian people have expressed a very clear, unambiguous caring for the island off their coast that represents to them everything that's wonderful about the Earth. And everything that's wonderful about Albania. And they have filled the streets of that country for months demanding that their government be held accountable for the grifting and, and attempts by their government to play ball with the Trump children and sell it off. Unfortunately, Rob, our media system is hiding from the American people The fact that our federal lands are about to be privatized.

Mm-hmm.

To a— to an extent that's unparalleled. And we know what that privatization generally means. And oh, by the way, our national forests are being doused with unprecedented amounts of glyphosate. Herbicide to clear the underbrush and make it easier to be logged. So if our population knew about America what the Albanians now know about their government and that island that means so much to them, our entire country would fill the streets. So we have a very serious communications challenge to connect the deep caring in the soul of every person that lives here. Um, generally want to— generally people want to keep living, and that life force in the American people has yet to be expressed to the depth at which it exists. And we're coming upon a possibility on January 3rd of one person, the Speaker of the House Mike Johnson, being in charge of whether people that get elected to their seats for the new Congress actually will be installed into those seats, or whether the current government will persist in a holdoff operation that basically steals our republic. Clear and simple. So we have a political crisis that's like a slow train wreck, but it's being hidden by, uh, big corporate media, and it's being constantly exposed by little independent channels all over the place. And, um, Publishing of books like, like, like this one. Um, it's just an enormous communications challenge because the depth of caring is there in people. We don't need to doubt that.

Yeah.

Um, Jane, thank you for raising all that. Um, little political public service announcement, uh, be sure to vote. Be sure to get everybody you know to vote. Be sure to get everybody you don't know to vote. We're 40— what, 44 days out? from a very consequential election. So public service announcement there. On the communications matter, you know, yeah, we are in the grips of a controlled media, but we also have other media channels that are newly available to us. And David, you're exploiting one of them. I want to come back to you after we hear from Shel about the, the, the what you're doing in addition to the book about the networks and so forth that you're proposing here because it's multifaceted, not just like a book as a chunk of tree pulp sitting on a desk, but something else to be done here, communicating in many different ways. Shel, I don't mean to disparage books. I know you write them too, but let's hear from you. Welcome back.

Thank you.

Well, I want to say a couple of things. One goes way back to the beginning when we were talking about AI, and I was remembering, was it 2 months ago that we had a very interesting Discussion here in this about of the eye more than making up for its fairly large carbon footprint and energy consumption. It might have been three months ago, but it was it was somebody you brought in an expert here that talked about that. So I wanted to remind people of that, and then I wanted to respond to what Jane was just bringing up. I don't know how many people here read Robert Hubbell. He thinks that Mike Johnson will have no power to do that and that the new Congress will be seated. But if he turns out to be wrong and the naysayers are right, we are not without weapons. And one of them is general strike. And I suspect very strongly that people like Daniel Hunter are working on what do we do if, as they did years ago and 8 years ago, that there will be people who can kick this in gear. I am very, very, very encouraged by the way so many of the large progressive organizations, starting like days after the 2024 election, mobilized as a coalition and they organized these calls. Which between Zoom and Facebook Broadcast Live and other channels can reach sometimes a million people. I mean, what a thing it is to be on a Zoom call with a million people hearing the same message. And I remember the first of these calls, I was like really puzzled. Like, I'm getting mail from, you know, Public Citizen and MoveOn and Movement Voter Project, and they all want me to go to a meeting, their own meeting at the same time.

Hmm.

So I picked one arbitrarily and then it turned out it was all the same meeting and I'm like, oh, okay, they're actually working together. The left is not eating its young, but instead is actually building a nest.

And October 17th is the next No Kings March across the country. So you got that too. David, let's go back to you. We've got about a dozen minutes left. Tell us about the Regen Networks. Yeah, so in clusters or circles, what are we calling them?

Regen Circles.

Thank you.

A new invention that'll launch with the book. And, and Rob and Jim will remember this, but when we started USGBC, like year 1, year 2, we were small and we used to have a meeting and all the membership easily fit in a room. And we would go around and everyone would get a minute to share who they are, what they're doing, but we could have a dialogue. And even this here, this is a circle today around a topic with facilitation. The sharing has been incredible. And as the green building movement's grown, 85 countries, projects in most countries, The Green Building Councils are national. Maybe they have city chapters that could be quite large. We have a Bay Area chapter where I am. LA has—

Can I just interrupt for a second to underline something you just said in case it gets missed? A few people sitting around in a living room. Boom, 85 countries. Got that? In case people think, well, what could I do? What could one person do? What could 3 people possibly do? Well, look, here's what a bunch of people, some of whom are on this call, actually did in the world. Measurable impact, trillion-dollar economic impact, measurable energy impact. Just, just to note that. Sorry to interrupt, but I had to underline.

No, but in our—

and thank you guys for doing it.

In our circle was Rob, And Jim. Jim was at Interface. Rob was at NRDC. Somehow we found each other. We sat in circles. We weren't local, but Rob was working on climate work and Jim was greening a manufacturing company. But we shared— we came together with a common mission. We supported each other. And a lot of us are mountain climbers, and we were solo climbing. We didn't have a map, we didn't have a compass, we didn't have Sherpas. We didn't— it would hail on our heads, and we didn't— we were freezing, we were hungry. In those days, USGBC was a base camp, and we were helping build that. But this region circles flips it, and the little base camp says not how can you help us, which a lot of these groups do. We all volunteered and we always help. But how can we help you? How can we help you keep climbing the mountain? How can we give you a map and a compass? How can We keep you going because so many of us change agents— Gil, I've known you, I don't know, over 30 years, and you're always inventing, you're always pushing, you're always trying, you're always curating. And I— we all have that, but our light, that light gets tired because you're always climbing and it's hailing and it's cold and maybe we're not making money. In green building, to get paid as a consultant, we had to invent the whole market and the system to get paid. It wasn't the doctor and the person has pain and you get paid, or the lawyer just sues someone, get paid. It was hard, and there are a thousand times I wanted to quit or did quit. Who saves you? So this circle ideas, little pods all over the world, playing off of Lean In Circles by Sheryl Sandberg. 9,000 women helping women circles in business and a whole organization to support them. But little groups in person, not digital, because I think we need that. They could be regen agents, change agents in, in the— in Berkeley, in the East Bay, in New York. It could be red list health people, it could be AI for good, it could be food bank, come together, 10, 15 kind of people facilitated with guidelines, code of conducts. How does it work? And you— it's pulling from Lean In Circles, YPO forums from Young Presidents Organization. The forum became the glue of the international organization. These local relationships. And, um, and then from masterminds, each time at the beginning of the year, you'll go through the codes, 15. You'll goal set for the year, share it so others can hold you accountable. It's pulling from 12-step programs, which are as successful as anything on earth. And then masterminds, hot seats. So 2 or 3 each meeting, 90 minutes, 15 minutes each. What's the urgent thing you have that the rest of us could be your board of advisors and brainstorm and hold you accountable from what you pledged in the beginning of the year to keep climbing? How do we refuel you? And that's just an idea. I don't know if there'll be interest. They could be Horizontal, they could be verticals, they could be students, they could be university circles. And I, I got to release it with quite a bit of thought and see what happens.

So you've got the roadmap for these circles in the book?

A little bit in the book, and then on the website when the book launches.

Give us some links in the chat. Give us links to the website and to the book so people can— you, you're open for pre-orders now already? Yeah.

Yes. And the Circle tab will go on October 20th at Greenbuild. The Circle tab will pop up, and at the beginning you'll just sign up you're interested, and you'll become part of a pilot of people who are launching Circles and help figure out the model. The main website I'll put here is regen360.net. And there you can get the book and the circle information. You can sign up. You can enter your name for my Substack. Comes out twice a week. Each week, one of the codes has a little video, and you hear about it tomorrow. You'll hear truth equals oxygen in a little video. But to try to create a community, like even here, there's a beautiful circle here. How do we tap into each other and climb this mountain and change currency?

Great. A quick shout out to, to David's excellent Substack. If you haven't subscribed, do.

So subscribe to the Substack, go to this link, register yourself into regen360.net, share the link with 2 other people and invite them to share it with 2 other people. And then we start to get multiplier. If you're able and interested, preorder the book, but take a look and see where this touches you, where this speaks to you, where there's action that this can support you in taking. Ken, any reflections as we draw to close here?

Yes, I actually would like to share. Something from Wendell Berry, who, as you all know, we just lost a short time ago. So let me get to my screen here. This is not me reading this poem, but it's someone I think probably everybody in here will recognize, and I just found it to be really amazing. So—

It is hard to have hope It is harder as you grow old, for hope must not depend on feeling good, and there's the dream of loneliness at absolute midnight. You also have withdrawn belief in the present reality of the future, which surely will surprise us, and hope is harder when it cannot come by prediction any more than by wishing. But stop dithering. The young ask the old to hope. What will you tell them? Tell them at least what you say to yourself. Because we have not made our lives to fit our places, the forests are ruined, the fields eroded, the streams polluted, the mountains overturned. Hope, then, to belong to your place by your own knowledge of what it is that no other place is, and by your caring for it as you care for no other place. This knowledge cannot be taken from you by power or by wealth. It will stop your ears to the powerful when they ask for your faith. And to the wealthy when they ask for your land and your work. Be still and listen to the voices that belong to the stream banks and the trees and the open fields. Find your hope then on the ground under your feet. Your hope of heaven, let it rest on the ground underfoot. The world is no better than its places. Its places at last are no better than their people, while their people continue in them. When the people make dark the light within them, the world darkens.

So, uh, don't let your light darken. Share it. Love people around you. We've talked a lot about love tonight. I love that. We haven't talked about love very much on these calls, and thank you, David, for bringing that in, and Jane, and everyone else who's talked about that. Um, this has been really, uh, an incredible call. I'm very grateful for everybody here, especially David and Gil and—

Thank you.

Everybody who contributed, just, you know, and Jane, you really did a great job tonight. I thought your words were fantastic. So I'm just filled with gratitude as we leave this call. And I appreciate how many of you keep coming back.

Yep.

It's a wonderful community, and it's really a privilege to be part of this and to have some small contribution in shaping it. So thank you very much.

Small but mighty, as they say.

Yes.

Small but mighty. I'm struck. I've been listening throughout this call. I've been, I've been listening to a theory of change that wasn't specifically spoken, but I think weaves through what we're talking about here and the work that many of you've been doing, uh, with 5 stepping stones in it, I guess. One is, is appreciating what's so, appreciating what's actually so now for all its complexity and flaws. And I think Wendell speaks to that more beautifully than anybody. Knowing what's missing, naming what's missing, naming what's needed, naming what's possible, which is where people often get lost and like, oh, there's nothing to be done. But David, Rob, Jim, the work you've done shows examples of like, here's stuff that's actually working all over the world. You know, it's not imaginary, it's there. So it's— you can no longer say it's not possible because there it is. Existence is proof of the possible. And, and so not just what's possible, but what's possible for me. Where can I step in and make some kind of contribution of care and mutual aid? And David, your contribution of this book and the Regen circles that you're seeding are a way to open up that conversation about not just what's possible, what's possible for me. So thank you so much. For the work that you've done over the past few decades, for the work you're doing now, for this book, for your time with us today. Thank you all for being on these calls. Can I echo what you said about this community? We were at— when the call started, we were a little disappointed, like, oh, this looks like a smaller call than usual. But, you know, as the open space folks say, whoever's there is supposed to be there. It's a perfect call. I'm very grateful to you all. We'll meet again next month. We're always the 3rd Wednesday of the month at noon Pacific time. Anna, thank you so much for getting up ridiculously early to be with us. Appreciate that. Tell your friends, invite other people. We'd love to expand this circle gently. We'd love to increase the variety and diversity of the views that are shared here. We depend— we promote to the extent we can, but we depend on you to reach out to others who you think would appreciate this conversation and add to it, bring them to us. Um, thank you for being here. We will, um, post the video, um, within the week, within, within a week from now, um, at the archive site. Kind of, you could put the link in again, that would be great. If you're, if you're on the call, you'll get an email announcing that when it's released. Um, um, on what? Um, we've been sending out a call wiki. Over the last few sessions. Haven't heard feedback from you. It's a fair amount of work to put it together, so send me a note if you think it's a good thing or a bad thing. We'll either continue or not. And, um, Ken, um, do you have a piece of music to carry us out? Of course, because, because this is the thing.

And you're not dancing.

So thank you all for dancing in the eye of the hurricane together.