Build-to-Rent, Community & Cash Flow with Pivotal Person Award Recipient Andy McMullen

Are you one of the many busy professionals working in offices day in and day out? Do you wonder how some people grow their wealth fast, retire early and play on work days? Well, you're in luck because Ginny Bolling hosts this show Pivots of Prosperity where she interviews people that can do just that play on work days. Many guests have become financially free. She also interviews people that are on their journey and people that are in support roles like attorneys, contractors, brokers and others. Commercial real estate is the common element. She is on a mission to be sure. Busy professionals know they can own substantial commercial properties too, like apartments, self storage facilities and others, and not have to do the work managing them. Passive investing is the key. Syndications are the typical method. Tax write offs are some of the biggest rewards. Ginny and partners find the deals, build a strong team and business plan, then offer the investment opportunities to passive investors. New episodes are released every Tuesday at 12, so watch for new releases. If you want to get involved, let us know. You need to get pre qualified to hear about most deals. See the show notes for contact information.

Hello, Hello. Jenny Bowling here with Pivot to Prosperity brought to you by Pivotal Real Estate Investments where we help investors build wealth and income through commercial real estate that also improves communities. I have with us today Andy McMullen and he is in California. Andy, thank you for coming on.

Yeah, it's great to be with you Jenny. Thanks for having me on.

Well, you have been in real estate quite a long time as well. We've been chit chatting a bit about that and I neglected to ask you if you sent me your bio because I just walked in the door from a meeting.

I think so, if not, we'll get that, we'll get that to you right away. I think I've been, yeah, that will.

Help to, to, yeah, fill in some blanks. But why don't you go ahead and give us your background?

Yeah, sure. So I've been, I've been in this game probably about 30 years or so. I'm gonna say 25. I'm gonna stay with 25. I know that you've been in a little bit longer than I have. I started off in the brokerage side mostly in la, real estate, kind of office buildings, a lot of industrial REITs, that kind of thing. And then about early 2000s, maybe 2004 or 5, we started kind of looking at developing projects in the Venice beach area. So that was kind of started off on the, the brokerage side and then kind of evolved into a lot of the asset management and you know, construction management, etc. So that's kind of where I really started to have the, the idea that maybe I could, could make it in this world as either a real estate operator of some sort. And then we started kind of shortly thereafter buying some apartment complexes and things, things of that nature in California and then the Southeast Carolinas and then just, I think you just to take a little further, the last six or seven years we spent a lot of our time focusing on not only apartment buildings, but built to rent communities. So the idea that we could maybe be creating 100 to 300 unit communities, all single family homes with, you know, the amenities and manage them much like we do our apartment properties, but give people a little bit more freedom and space and, and backyards and barbecues. So that's kind of what we spent a lot of our time doing over the last few years.

So you know, build to rent is on the newish side to Florida. Tell me, tell us all how you handle that for the common areas and what kind of costs the renter has and pros and cons there for you all especially.

Yeah, I would say, you know, from, from the renter's perspective. I think, you know, when, when we were in our homes, right in the neighborhood we, we'd have, you know, be a one renter and you know, the grass is a little bit longer and there might be some kind of stigma with that neighbor down the way. Oh, they don't care about the community etc. It's a lot different as you know now. So I think even people that could buy are choosing the newer technology, having their, you know, barbecue and big backyard and walking trails and amenities for the, you know, young family formation years. And so we have seen our kind of resident base is a mix of people that can and then other people that, you know, this is the largest gap we've seen Ginny, in mortgage, you know, differential from where you would be paying in rent. Right. And started when we were developing our first communities, maybe a thousand dollar Delta Countrywide and Now it's almost $2,000 difference, almost $2,000 more expensive now to buy with your mortgage and all of that entails than it is to rent. So I think it's, it's in the very early innings still. There's a lot of Wall street money that has not yet come in, a lot that has come in, I mean billions that have come in. But when you compare it to the apartments and what the, you know, just call it smart money or edge money has been investing in apartment buildings that's maybe 45, 50% of the market and built to rent there maybe, you know, 6%, 4%. So just, you know, to answer your question, we build them very similar to, you know, apartment projects. You would have, you know, detached homes, in some cases townhomes. For us, the amenities and the kind of costs are a little bit less. And the reason is we're building brand new so we can, we can get away with a little bit. You know, if their budget for apartment maybe is 40 to 50% expense ratio on a build to rent project, maybe it's 30, 35% on the kind of tenant turnover that's a lot, a lot better for, you know, single family rentals. Right. That it's a stickier tenant, they know their neighbors, they're staying longer. You know, a big part of your budget as a investor in apartment buildings, right. Is the cost of turns. Right. You suck a lot of your budget out, so that is obviously a lower expense. And then I think just in general there's a lot of kind of efficiencies with tech packages. A lot that residents want that we can either pass through or make much more affordable for our residents. So things like that I would say I'll take, I'll take a breath and make sure you, you. I don't, I don't, I don't just hog the mic with selling to rent community.

Yeah, no, that, I appreciate that, but the, so you said the, you were quoting expense ratios. I think more for the operator or for the property owner. For the tenant.

Yeah, I just meant for the, that I just meant for the operator. Right. For us to invest, we can, we can put a lot more of that, added delta and dollars into amenities and infrastructure for the communities because we're not spending so much on our utilities. But yeah, for the renter, there is not a whole lot of difference. I mean, I think if you were to just do across the board, what's the cost for an apartment compared to where a comparable built to rent community. Of course a built to rent community is going to be a couple hundred dollars more a month. Right. But we're not talking about a large number. Right? We're talking about a pretty. You know, if you're thinking, oh, I can have my dog, I've got my own backyard, I've got all my open space, I can work from home because I've got extra space with people not above me and below me. So I think that there's a lot of factors in there that, that, that make it a, a great alternative. And again we, we still own and manage and like apartments. We just, we feel like this is kind of the next, next wave.

Have you ended up doing apartments in the same town or general vicinity as where you did build to rent? So you could compare a three bedroom in the apartment as say, say 16, 1800 and in the, in the home, it's whatever.

Yeah, not for our projects. I mean obviously a lot of property management work, a lot of, you know, comps, a lot of discussions with other operators. So certainly a lot of research. But no, they're markets that we've focusing on. Our built to rent communities are, you know, a little more tertiary, a lot more open space. There are municipalities that really want to beautify that community. They really want communities that are single family rentals. So there might be some, we're looking at some, some stuff currently now in North Carolina that might be in proximity, it might be in proximity to one of our other apartment complexes. But most, most of the time they're different dynamics and a lot of that is kind of dictated by what those communities wants want. Do they want the open spaces, they want more compressed units. And so we're in, you know, like Lafayette, Louisiana or areas of Carolina, Alabama, some other, you know, municipalities that really want us there and willing to work with us on a lot of the entitlement issues that kind of come to pass.

So yeah, let's talk about entitlement. How long is it taking generally in most vicinities? Are you, can you average, Is it a year like typical or. That's what's typical in Florida anyway.

Yeah, I mean, well, see, I always go typical. You know, I'm in California. Right. So to get into things entitled in California, you got to add another year. Right. So I always feel like in the south we can usually work through things in six to nine and on some cases it's going to take 12. It just kind of depends on what that city requires. But the reason that we can move a little bit faster is a lot of the times what we're doing, Jeanne, is we'll option the land first, work through all of the entitlements. Right. So that might take us 6, 9, 12 months in some cases, get all that work out of the way and then by the time even all of the hearings. So that's all with our money, we're putting our money and then we'll buy the project with our money. And by that time we've had, you know, Ned, the neighbor who doesn't want his son to live next to that, you know, community or Hey, I want to make sure that we consider this road or that road. So we've had all of the hearings, we've had all of the kind of artwork, which we call the artwork of the entitlement and horizontal development. That's the streets, roads, and utilities is a little bit different than the kind of, you know, construction. Once you're building three units, you know, eight units at a time, three bedroom, two baths. They're all pretty, you know, reliable timelines. The art phase is a little different.

Yeah. And are you doing stick built? Is it fragrance construction?

Yes, and that's kind of why we haven't done Florida. Florida's a lot more of the block, a lot more concrete. You know, it's not something that we wouldn't do, but, yeah, we've been focusing on stick build for now.

Do you have termite issues as much in other states as we do here in Florida?

Do you? Yeah, we haven't had as much, you know, I think that. That a lot of our investors are concerned, you know, certainly with like, every area. Right. I'm in California. So you've got earthquakes and fires. And you go in Florida, you got the same kind of hurricane. You got, you know, there's always a storm watch. And so we try to make sure that we're, you know, staying out of flood zones and making. Making sure that we're on high enough ground. I would say if there's any, you know, issues that we've had, and my partners have been in Louisiana, their ENT MBAs, and at LSU, Baton Rouge, and then mostly living in Lafayette or in and around kind of the Alabama areas, you know, Foley and such. We. The most is, you know, kind of roof shingles blowing off and, you know, losing power for four or five days, which isn't a small thing. Right. You lose power and for five and six, seven days. And that's. That's quite the inconvenience. But nothing. The way buildings are built as, you know, today and the way, you know, you've got so many. So much of these. The requirement, whether it's just the roof, whether it's the siding, whatever that is. There's. It's really. It's. They're really strong construction projects these days.

And when you're doing a community, are they two and three bedrooms, or do you do one bedrooms, two, or what do you. What do you.

Not typically ones. You know, we've done projects where we just do three twos. We've done projects where there's two twos all the way up to Four. Four bedrooms. We haven't done a whole lot of fives, but we do think there probably is a market for, in some areas for fives. There's seemingly a lot more family oriented spaces now. But yeah, I would say anywhere from that. Two to four is kind of our sweet spot. And then we'll, we'll. Depending on the size, we usually can build about 8 to 9 per acre. And so in some cases you might have townhomes, but most of what we're building is detached single family.

Okay.

And two car garage with it.

In some cases. No. In some cases covered parking and in some cases garages. I would say that was something very early on where a lot of people at the early stages say, hey look, I want to have detached, you know, I want to have attached garages. That's kind of since if people were asked, hey, what do they prefer having, you know, their, their amenities and dog yoga and all the rest of the stuff or they want their garages. Most people want to have the open spaces now. So that hasn't been as much of a sticking point. Some of the municipalities that we're working in, you know, they definitely want to see the garages, but I would say it's, it's far fewer than when we started this five, six years ago.

Interesting. Okay. So yeah. And you've been doing it five or six years then, now?

Well, yeah, I mean on the, on just these, in the, in these communities. My partners have been doing it 15. I've been doing a lot of development for years, but in the kind of what we've started to take from just raw dirt to actual projects with communities. Yeah, that I think we started 20. I guess it's about seven years now. 20, 18.

Okay. So yeah, you were trailblazer.

I don't know about a trailblazer. I just listened to much smarter people. I was. Oh yeah, this, this seems to make sense. But, but it is kind of as you know, Jenny, like you remember when you first started, right. There was, there was guys that got lucky. Even during the SNL or the crisis, there was guys that kind of got lucky in the dot com, you know, in the gfc. I mean there was, you know, we were developing projects that I thought we were going to be retrading all of our leases in a live work development in Venice. And then Google just moves down the street. Right. So there's, there's, there's things that kind of, you know, as luck have it, and then there's things that you could never expect. And I would put that last couple of years as a, as in that category where you're going to have to, maybe you're lucky that you're developing projects because now you can build through these interest rates, maybe the values and the scarcity, because interest rates were where they were, you know, that a lot of the for sale builders kind of pulled in the reins a little bit and so the supply didn't get out of whack. So there's always factors and I think, as you know, there's always ascending cycles and descending cycles, depending on the geography. So I, you know, if there's, if there's, you know, advice to give younger operators is that you can, you can kind of read the news and you can follow it and you can see where the trends are going, but really is it, do you have that grit to figure out ways to work around it? Right. Because there's going to be something that will go wrong. Do you have the team in order to kind of combat it? And luckily, if it was just me, we would be dead and floating in the water.

But no, I doubt that. But that's a key part of when you do these business plans and talk to people about what you're going to do or what the plan is. Um, it's so important to say that, that, you know, that's, that's only the plan and we need to be able to change according to the market and that's, that's critical to be able to do it. Really, really is.

I'd be, I'd be curious to know, like, in the 40 years you've been in this, because you've been doing a lot of different, different things, but have you ever seen a pro forma that worked the way that you had predicted that? I mean, it's either wrong to your benefit or it's wrong on the other, on the other side. But it's, it's rarely going to be precise in the way that you planned.

Yeah.

So that's why it does have to do a lot with the conductors, you know.

Right, right. And you got to give them the, the leeway to be able to, to make those decisions. That's why you have to know like, and trust the, the principles for sure.

Yeah.

But so in this market we've had to get more creative and why don't you talk a little bit about how you all have been addressing some of that with the debt structure?

Oh, yeah. I mean, I think one of the trends that we've kind of figured out, and this is, this is just over time and I Think this is, this, this kind of dovetails with the, the point of the last four years were much different than people anticipated. I mean, and there was even myself investing in other projects as an LP or other apartment complex. You know, part of the reason that you would choose an apartment over, you know, a development project is that you could rely on, you know, your, you know, preferred return and you could rely on typically some cash flow. Right. And what we've learned over the last couple of years is if interest rates go up, you know, if the 10 years from 50 to 450 and then, and operators are pulling in their distributions, then, you know, you, you're basically just having to trust that they're making the right decisions on your behalf. Right. And so what we kind of discovered was, well, that's great. We can deliver our investors a nice return, a nice irr and maybe a nice average annual return. But if, if in the meanwhile they're having to kind of just read reports and hope that there's some distributions, they'd much rather maybe take a lower return and be paid more frequently. Right. So I think there's a lot of people that fall into that category. You know, folks that maybe are investing in the market even then have said, wow, it's gone up a lot. I want to diversify. I want to make sure that I've got my, you know, my fingers on other ways to make opportunities. So what we've, we've kind of created is a couple of, you know, DEP products where instead of inv. Instead of having investors just invest long term on a, you know, two, three, four year horizon of a development from its entitlement to the horizontal to the, to the, to the structural phase where we're building out the actual units itself in the vertical. We've just decided, hey, why don't we partner with some lenders, give them favored terms for investing 12 to 14%, they sit on the debt stack and you know, we, we're able to keep more of our project and it gives us a little more freedom as we refi in the other things. So there's more to go into that. But, but, but that's, I think what's been working for us and I think for a lot of other operators as well.

Right. Yeah, I, there's a lot of different things going on. Right, but that's, that's, that's an interesting twist. So as far as where you think the market is going, what do you, what is your outlook?

Oh man. We should be asking you, have you. I, I've listened to some episodes. I don't know if you've got a chance to tell your view on it, but if I, in my experience, there happens to be so many variables now with this administration, it's really hard to tell. But if I were to just consider it was a race and the race was between, is there going to be some deregulation, smaller businesses, communities that are really now growing because they don't have to compete and pay the legal and accounting, et cetera, of all these larger companies because there's deregulation, or are we going to see the tariffs, you know, hike our, you know, lumber costs in Canada and concrete in Mexico? If, if I was to kind of just say these are, these, these two are racing along, I'd probably bet on the, the horse that's on the deregulation side. And as a result that kind of filters down to everybody who's considering to do business in a community. Right? That's the, the subcontractors, that's the, the lenders. Right. That's the private money that I think is starting to open up, which I think we've seen in a lot of cases. And so, and I think that's just generally the consensus for the economy that there's going to be a lot more business freedom. Now that's not without, you know, if, without getting into politics. Just the facts, man. There's a lot of shaking things up and there's a lot of negotiation in between. But I think that we're probably in a much better position today. I'm curious what you think than we were even 12 months ago as far as the opening up of capital in order to make things like built to rent projects, businesses run office buildings, data centers, all the things that kind of add to the growth of our economy.

It's hard to say. I think a couple months here is going to tell a lot, but I think. Well, it's worth sharing with you that what they were saying at the conference I was just at. It sure looks like with the cleansing process that's going on right now, a lot of the banks aren't going to be kicking the can down the road as much. And so we do expect some loan modifications to continue, but also some trading. So hopefully that's going to end up meaning some good opportunities for the rest of us which will open up the money. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's going to be very interesting.

I mean, I think that last year was like 4 or 500 billion in loans that were kicked down, kicked down from the previous year that should have been, and I think that's probably likely to happen this year. We've had some really good lenders. You know, Arbor has been. Been a great lender. There's been a couple of others. Larger. Big said, I've been really good on the loan modification, but, yeah, I mean, I think that there's. There's also just in general, many of the communities that we operate in, there's certainly a perception right. From. From residents that are there that are a little bit concerned as to what does that mean for. What does that mean? That. That some of these things that I'm seeing are. Is that real and is that going to affect my life as I try to come home and, you know, I'm with my families and do my job, or am I affected by kind of, you know, some of the politics? So there. There's definitely no doubt, some uncertainty. But again, if there was a racehorse, I would. I would kind of bet on the fact that things are going to be a little bit better than they are.

Yeah, yeah. You just don't want to be reliant on some of the government workers right now.

Yeah, I mean, it's. That's. That's tricky in a lot of markets. I have, you know, a couple of friends are doing stuff in the D.C. and, you know, we're talking about, you know, veterans that have years and years of experience, maybe working at Booze Allen, maybe going back into this and, you know, a threshold over a day or two and they're kicked down to another department or maybe losing their job and they're starting all over again. So there's definitely going to be some shuffling, no doubt about that. But I think that's kind of what we all anticipated. Right. And for those of us that are in the business world, we know that's typically how we navigate our daily lives. Right. It doesn't. It's never as simple as the plan, and there's always some adjustments to be made, and that's kind of why you're investing in, you know, the people that are more apt to be able to. To navigate those types of situations.

So tell me, your company name is Legacy Acquisitions, right?

Correct? Yes.

And so what made you name it that?

Yeah, legacy is such an interesting word for me. Like, I personally, as far as, like, the idea of wealth being built, to me, that. That it's an overrated word, but the idea of kind of helping people invest for their families. Right. For either time with their kids, either time with their communities, that's kind of how we'll be judged ultimately is when, when, when our, when we're, when we're put in the ground. It's kind of what kind of person were we and what kind of father, mother or family person were we. It's not really about the things that we can take with it. So. So I think legacy in the sense is underrated. So I use it kind of more as how can we deliver the best possible opportunity for people that we're trying to bless, whether that's the people in the communities that we build. We do a lot of community events to try and build out, you know, communities that are. Whether that's community events or Bible studies, whatever that is. And then we do a lot of kind of work in the communities with sports, etc. So that's kind of the legacy that I'm referring to. It's not necessarily the wealth legacy because, as you know, my. Well, I got some smart kids, but. But I don't think any of them think my job is interesting on whether they want. Then they want to take it on. So I'm definitely not looking to kind of hand it over to my fit. But hopefully, you know, at some point they'll. They'll learn. Learn a couple lessons from dad.

How old are your kids?

I got a 7, a 10 and a 14.

So it's early. You don't know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know. Well, you know, I have a pretty good idea, Jenny, that my middle one is going to be a tough cookie. So I don't know.

What are the sports they're into?

Well, I'm actually coaching my girls basketball and volleyball and then my son's basketball as well. He's eighth grade and I love that part of it. I think that's kind of where I think we can make an impact in the way they kind of see the world. And, you know, hopefully as we're building out our businesses, you know, the people that are in our businesses that are, that are working through our businesses are trying to make that kind of impact with their families. I think it's a little bit friend. I'd be curious. It's probably a different conversation altogether, Jenny, but when, when we were growing up, there was a lot more of those kinds of communities and sports that were really close, whether it was a church or a sports complex. I think now you've got. If you're. If you've got good people that are raising families, you've got to give them some grace because it's likely that they're raising their kids at a sports complex that's 15, 20 minutes away. And then they've got their, their school events that are another. And then they've got the gymnastics. And it's not like you can just send them outside these days. Right. That's. It's a totally different mindset. So I think we're starting. I don't know if it's a good thing. I think in general probably better that kids were bored, but, but, but it is the reality that, you know, these parents that are working with you and for you and on your projects are going to need a little bit more grace going forward.

Yeah, no, I agree, I agree. And the reason I picked up to talk about legacy is, is to, to get your take on it. I had a webinar about a month ago, I guess it was called Money for Tomorrow. And part of it was, you know, legacy. You know, you talk about wealth, but. But legacy is a key part of it. And so, yeah, we, we have a book that was written by. When I'm drawing a blank. I can't believe I'm doing that.

Yeah, we'll put it in the show notes. We'll have it in the show.

Yeah. Anyway, so there's a book though, that if your family isn't wanting to get involved, for instance, necessarily with the business, but say they, they lose all the money that, that you've passed down, it tells them how, what principles, it guides them on all the things that we've learned pretty much that that will help them to try to recreate. So it's almost like a. Something that put with the will or, you know.

Yeah, and that's. That, that, that's kind of what I'm getting at is like these lessons. It would almost be more powerful if we as just, just mentors and leaders that we put all that information that we have acquired and accumulated over time into a scroll like, that would be much more powerful than handing them a check every year. Right. No, it's not realistic to do. But that's kind of what I mean by, by legacies is you've put many years of trying to figure out what's the best way to help people, Jenny. And now, you know, be nice to be able to pass it down to other people that are trying to do the same. I know you're leading some groups that are trying to do that same kind of thing. It's not about the actual dollar. That's the tool. It's about the impact on the people helping each other.

Right, right. So it's. You'll know, you pray will know this. You might know this name. Whitney Elkins Hutton. She's the.

Oh, yeah, sure.

Investor education@ passiveinvesting.com.

Right. Yeah, of course. Okay. I have to check that out.

Yeah, that's the book she wrote. So. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, I appreciate the fact that you named your company that way so that maybe there would be some reinforcement on the idea of legacy has to do with more than money.

Yeah.

So, anyway, so I am going to ask you that big question that we do towards the end of all of our recordings here. So is there a pivotal person or event that's either brought you to where you are now or that's pushing you forward towards a certain goal or point?

Yeah. And I'm always reluctant to do this because I know that this is going to get back to a person that's going to be very uncomfortable. Right. And that's. That's usually the way it works. Right. Is it's always the reluctant leader. Sometimes I shouldn't say always, but in many cases it's a reluctant leader that steps up and does what's necessary. So I, I had a mentor many years ago by the name of Bob d'. Elia. He's since passed, so. So he would have been who I would mention because he, he gave me so many. One, not just like, more like life lessons and the confidence at the time that I probably didn't really deserve, but entrusted me with a lot of the. That basically stretched me. Right. And I think that's what good leaders do, is they stretch you. But one person I'm thinking of now is a partner of ours. We've invested together on projects. His name is Andrew Gi. He's the founder of MagCap, which is a company that's been building an incredible fund of real estate where they will buy real estate from businesses that have been in, you know, in service for many years. So they'll basically buy the real estate, lease it back to them. And he's created a fund that's been very powerful. He's also invested with us in a lot of our built to rent projects. But the thing that I would say about him is you talk about a legacy. This is a person that not only has, you know, the means, the brains. He was actually came from appraisal like, like you did as well. But he, but he. His mission is to help folks. So I don't even know that he would come on a podcast, honestly, Ginny, because, because he, he would not want anybody to think that this, that that would make some way detract from his message is to help people kind of behind the scenes, but he's somebody that I just got to mention and that whole organization, madcap, is. I don't, I don't benefit anything from them, but just spent a couple weeks ago with them quite some time in their first class organization. So that would be a good group for you to get on your. On your podcast.

So the way we handle that is you can either call them and let them know they were nominated and actually it finally hit me. I like I've been distracted since I just got in town. You were nominated. You are. Yes, you are, aren't you? Because didn't we reach out to you and tell you.

I don't think so. I'm sure that was probably referred here, but. But I don't know that I was.

I'm thinking you are Kreshev Koller. Do you know him?

Keshev? Sure. Yeah. Keshev works with us for sure.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Keshev nominated you.

Okay, that's really nice.

So that was. That might have been our vas talking to each other. I'll verify. But you might be one of them. That's a lapel pin and all that too.

Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, good.

Yeah, I'm thinking, gosh, my memories. I should have known before.

He's. He's. I. If I could just. I don't know if I. If there's even time, but, but, but that he's younger. I spent quite a bit of time. My wife, she says it's not a crush, but I think it's a crush on Keshe.

He.

He is one of the smartest, but. But one of the most persistent. Right. To a point where he's just makes things happen. Right. So those people you gotta have in your circle. So that, that would be huge honor if that's the case. I'm not gonna assume, but if that is the case, that's. That's huge honor that he recommended me.

Yes, I'm 90% sure, 95%. Yeah. Thank you. So I'm glad that, that you tipped my, my memory there on that. So Great, great. And thank you for telling us, you know who another good group is because, you know, what goes around comes around and if we all take a little time and help each other, I think that really can help the whole industry and we certainly want the industry to flourish and we don't want to be seeing, you know, some of the. The bad news that that industries always have. All industries have some. But the more we help each other, the less of that there is, hopefully. So. Yeah, Very good, Very good. Well, thank you. So tell people how they can reach you.

Yeah, so Please check out legacy acquisitions.com and, you know, hop on a call with, with our team. I'd be happy to get on as well. As I mentioned, there was a lot of people that helped us along the way. We'd love to help anybody that's just curious either about Built to Rent or real estate in general, or maybe it's something completely different than that. So they can reach me on LinkedIn or our website, Jenny. And love to talk with them.

Yeah. And your last name? So it's Andy and Mullen is M C M U L L E N For those people that are just listening. And we'll put it in the show notes, of course. I have a cat that's moving my computer.

Oh, there you go. Oh, look at this guy.

Since I've been out of town, he won't let me. I should have put him in a room. But anyway, so, yeah, I am so glad we got to meet and I so appreciate, I like, I like to find the people that have been in the industry for decades and you're certainly a very good resource and I, I have been wanting to learn more about Build to Rent. So that's been a very productive discussion as well.

Yeah. Good. And if there's a topic we can come and, and, you know, tease out further or flesh out, I'd love to do that as well. So thanks for making this happen, Ginny. I really enjoyed being on with you.

Well, thank you. Take care.

Take care.