Betrayal Trauma: Its Impact On Our Relationships, Holistic Health, And Lives As A Whole With Dr. Debi Silber

In a world full of turmoil, despair and darkness, you need to carry the light. Season three of the Get Attitude Podcast is where we will ignite your mind, your heart, and your attitude. And welcome to the gap, the Get Attitude Podcast. I am your host, Glenn Bill, international bestselling author, speaker, and coach. And we are also obviously a podcast host. So we're here at the Get Attitude Podcast. And boy, do we have a treat for you today. We have Dr. Debbie Silber, President of the PBT, the Post Betrayal Transformation Institute, and founder of ThePBTInstitute.com which helps people heal from Post Betrayal syndrome, which impacts their work, their health, and their relationships. Does this sound like maybe it might be you? She is a holistic psychologist, speaker and coach and author of the Amazon number one best selling book, the Unshakable Four Steps to Rebuilding youg Body, Body, your Mind, and Life After a Life Crisis. The Unshakeable Woman and its companion workbook are available to you and can be purchased@thepbtinstitute.com I am ready to jump in to this thing called Betrayal. I don't know if you listeners have ever been betrayed, but if you have been betrayed and if you do have a story and if it has affected all those areas of your life, we have just the guest to help you today. Dr. Debbie, welcome to the Get Attitude Podcast.

Thank you so much. And I realized you must have an old bio because I have two books since then.

I love it. I do. Well, yeah, I think we got it off your site. Well, tell me about the two books that you have.

The most recent are really around Betrayal. It's around the. I did a PhD study. We made three groundbreaking discoveries and that's where the new books came from. One is Trust Again. And that maps out one of the most exciting of the three discoveries. And then the companion guide to that one is From Hardened to Healed. And that focuses on one particular aspect of it. And I'm happy to get into the discoveries and all of that. You just let me know.

I love it. And we should also mention that you have a podcast as well that you want to. Guys, you want to download this and listen to who she's working with called From Betrayal to Breakthrough. So From Betrayal to Breakthrough is Dr. Debbie's podcast and I highly recommend that you subscribe that and follow her so you can get some of her awesome advice. Tell us about these three big discoveries that came about when you did all your research.

Yeah, sure. So. Well, of course no one studies betrayal because you're like, you Know, I like that topic. No, you study because you have to. And I had a really painful betrayal from my family. Thought I did everything I needed to do to heal from that. It happened again a few years later. This time, it was my husband. Well, that was the deal breaker. So got him out of the house and looked at the two experiences, thinking, okay, what's similar to these two? Of course, me. What else? And I realized, you know, boundaries were always getting crossed. I never really took my needs seriously. And I'm one of those people that just believes if nothing changes, nothing changes. So here I was, four kids, six dogs, a thriving business, and I was like, you know what? I'm going back for a PhD. Like, a book wasn't getting me out of this gym. I needed a whole PhD in it. And it was in transpersonal psychology, the psychology of transformation and human potential. And while I was there, I did a study. I studied betrayal. What holds us back, what helps us heal, and what happens to us physically, mentally, and emotionally when the people closest to us lie, cheat, and deceive. And that study led to those three groundbreaking discoveries, which changed my health, my work, my family, my life. So happy to get into all three, if. If that would serve.

Yeah, well, I mean, I'm. Now I'm dying to know. So let's go with number one. Tell me what the first big discovery was for you.

Yeah, sure. So I had a feeling that betrayal was a different type of trauma because it felt different for me. I had been through death of a loved one. I'd been through disease, but betrayal felt different. I didn't want to assume it was the same for all my study participants. So I asked him, if you've been through other traumas besides betrayal, is it different for you? Unanimously, they said, oh, my gosh, it's so different. And here's why. Because it feels so intentional. We take it so personally. So the entire self is shattered. Rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust. So it didn't quite qualify as other traumas. Like, for example, if you lose someone you love, you grieve, you're sad, you mourn the loss. You don't necessarily lose your ability to trust. Right. So that type of healing needed its own name, which is now called post betrayal transformation. So that was the first discovery.

Wow. Cool. So let's go. So, yeah, what you're saying is, is it's so personal, right? It is different. It's. So just stay with that. What are the lessons or what are the solutions for people that are experiencing that? How do you. How do you move on from betrayal?

Yeah, you don't move on. You move through. And you need to move through all of it. And when you don't, you experience the second of the three discoveries, which was that there is a collection of symptoms, physical, mental and emotional, so common to betrayal. It's known as Post betrayal syndrome. We've had easily over 80,000 people take our post betrayal syndrome quiz on our site to see to what extent they're struggling. The first thing about that is we've all been taught time heals all wounds. Right. I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that's not true. And I can share with your entire audience a new relationship or time will not heal it. We need to deliberately and intentionally move through it. But every so often, I pull the stats from the quiz just to show where people are. I'm happy to share some.

Sure. Please let us know. And again, they can get that quiz on the pbtinstitute.com and if you're listening and you want to know if you need some help or if you need some awareness, go to that quiz. Struggling to trust you may have. There it is. Post Betrayal syndrome. So Jason, our wonderful producer has this and we are on Spotify video, just so you know. So we are there. Go to her website and take this quiz. I think I might. So go ahead and tell me about the statistics.

Yeah. And we're talking about betrayal of a family member, a partner, a friend, a co worker, self. Okay, so now imagine 80,000 plus people. Men, women, just about every country is represented.

Wow.

Yeah. 78% constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel a loss of personal power. 80% are hypervigilant. 94% deal with painful triggers. We're talking about men, women, everybody. The most common physical symptoms. 71% have low energy. 68% have sleep issues. 63% have extreme fatigue. So you sleep all night long, you wake up, you're exhausted. That's how you know your adrenals have tanked. 47% have weight changes. So think about it. Maybe you can't hold food down in the beginning. Later on you're using food for comfort. 45% have digestive issues. And that could be anything. Crohn's, IBS, diverticulitis, you name it.

Wow.

Yeah. The most common mental symptoms. And pay attention to this, these numbers, because I'm going to say something about that at the end. 78% are overwhelmed. 70% are walking around in a state of disbelief. 68% are unable to focus. 64% are in shock. 62% can't concentrate. Now, think about this. You can't concentrate. You have a gut issue. You're exhausted. You still have to show up at work every day. You still have to raise your kids right. That's not even the emotional ones. Emotionally, 88% experience extreme sadness. 83% are very angry. You could bounce back and forth between those 2 all day long. 82% are hurt. 80% have anxiety. 79% are stressed. Here's why I wrote the book trust again. 84% have an inability to trust just a few more. 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they were afraid of being hurt again. 82% find it hard to move forward. 90% want to move forward, but they don't know how.

Wow. And so you are here. You have been sent to us from the Lord above to help us with all of these symptoms that you just went through. That is a. That's quite a menu, and that's quite a big opportunity for you as a speaker. I'm sitting there going, okay, there's 18 keynotes that you just put out there for worth.

Exactly. And you know what's so crazy? First of all, you didn't hear me say anything. 20, 30. These numbers are high. What's even crazier is these numbers aren't even. And these symptoms aren't necessarily from a recent betrayal. So now imagine this. These can be from something that happened decades ago.

Right?

So your parent who did something awful, that girlfriend or boyfriend who broke your heart in high school, whatever it is. Now think about this. They may not know. Care. Remember, they may not even be alive. And here we are walking around with these symptoms today because of something that happened decades ago.

Wow. And I think for all those who are listening right now, certainly they're going inside their minds and their emotions and going, oh, my God. Yeah, you know what? I've been betrayed. Right. So is that number two, or is it time to jump to number three?

That was number two. And before we get to number three, I want you to everybody listening, I want to show you how, you know, we don't realize where it. Where it shows up. It shows up everywhere. It shows up in our health, our work, our relationships. Like, for example, in our relationships, I'll see it in one of two ways. A classic sign of an unhealed betrayal. Repeat betrayals. The faces change, but it's the same thing. And I hear this all the time. What the heck? I keep going from boss to boss to boss, partner to partner, partner, friend, to friend. To friend. Is it me? Yes. It is not in that it's your fault in that it's your opportunity. There is a profound lesson needing to be learned. Whether the lesson is you are lovable, worthy and deserving, you need better boundaries in place, whatever it is. Until and unless you get that, you're going to have opportunities in the form of people to teach you. The other way we see it in relationships is the big wall goes up. We're like, no one's getting close to me again. We think that's coming from a place of strength, and it's not. It's coming from fear. We were so brokenhearted and shattered. We would rather keep everyone at a distance than risk that level of pain again. That's an unhealed betrayal right there. We see it in, in health, people go to the most well meaning doctors, coaches, healers, therapists to manage a stress related symptom, illness, condition, disease. At the root of it is an unhealed betrayal. Right. And, and we see it in work. You know, you want that razor promotion, you deserve it. But your confidence was shattered in the betrayal. So you don't have the confidence to ask or you want to. Team player, collaborative partner. But the person you trusted the most proved untrustworthy. How do you trust that boss, that coworker, that partner shows up everywhere.

Wow. And so obviously this is coming from a personal point of view. This is something where you were one of those statistics, I'm guessing. Did you feel immobilized? Did you feel broken and you at least found the strength to say, okay, I got to figure this out. Can you share with us what your betrayal was that formed you? And what, what were you telling yourself when you said, okay, enough is enough, I need to turn the page? That's what I want people to hear.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, as I mentioned, my first one was my family, and then later on it was my husband. I mean, and that was the deal breaker for the marriage. So it was devastating, heartbreaking. Anybody who's been through it, you know, that pain. And I just, I remember diving into this, this program and then that study and because I just, honestly, it was, it was just to help me heal. I didn't, I didn't have any, any bigger goal than that. But when I was going through the study, there was a moment and I remember saying, I don't know how I'm going to heal for that from this, but if I, if I can, I'm taking everybody with me. Like, I just knew that if I can find a way through this.

Yeah.

Then it's trauma well served. And that's exactly what the third discovery was, which is for me, the most exciting and happy to share what that is, too.

Well, I love that word, trauma well served. That is really, really cool. So real quick, I always say to. When I'm speaking, I say we all have two things in common, right? And that is problems in relationships. And most of us have our problems because of our relationships, and most of us have family that causes that. So when you say there was a family betraya, are you from, like a big Catholic family where, you know, it's that, that, that happens with, like, all of our people. You know, there's a infighting between the siblings or whatever. Was it something like that or was it parent? Parental?

Yeah, it was. It was all of it. And. And I'm not from a Catholic family, but it's still. It was. It was crazy making. And. And it just. It's that kind of thing where you just automatically assume, well, it must be me. But then you realize, you know, people are acting from their current level of consciousness and that's the best they can do. And honestly. And I realized that I always have a lot of dogs, which is what we do. And one day I was watching my dogs and I was like, you know something? I would never expect them to not act like dogs. That's who they are. So why in the world am I expecting others to act anything like what they've consistently been? And we don't realize it until we move through it and until we question a lot of the beliefs that we've been fed and a lot of the, you know, all of it. And that's where we start thinking, wait a second. Just because this was said to me, or this was. This was, you know, the belief at the time, or this was done, doesn't mean. Doesn't mean it's real. Doesn't mean it's true. Like, think about what a belief system is. All it is is the repetition of an idea from someone you trust. That's it. A parent, a teacher, someone in a religious capacity, said something enough times to you, doesn't make it right or wrong, doesn't make it good or bad, doesn't make it true, but it makes it yours. And there comes a time where we used to make sense just doesn't make sense anymore. You know, what we used to just automatically believe just doesn't. It just doesn't work. And that's a beautiful moment because that's when we start questioning things and unraveling A lot of it. So, yeah, the first one was tough, and the second one was even tougher. But again, you know, unless and until you do something different, nothing changes. For me, enrolling in this PhD program was the biggest thing I could ever do. I didn't know how I was going to pay for it, how I was going to find the time. And it changed my life. And now, thankfully, you know, the lives of thousands of others. I will tell you, though, before we get to the third discovery, just to sort of close the loop there. Rebuilding is always a choice, whether you rebuild yourself and move on. And that's what I did with my family. It just wasn't an option to rebuild with them. Or if the situation lends itself, if you're willing, if you want to, you rebuild something from the ground up. New as two transformed people. And that's what I do with my husband. So not long ago, as two completely rebuilt people, we married each other again. New rings, new bows, new dress, and our four kids is our bridal party.

Oh, my gosh. So you got it back. So on the family part, so it sounds like you said, okay, we're all going to do a hard reset and we're going to recreate this family. Were you at a point where you just were not talking? Like communication was off, you know, Jim Rohn, as he says, there's disassociation or limited association. And I think a lot of people, when they look at family problems, just say, you know what, we're going to disassociate. We're not even talking anymore. Was that what the state was. And then how did you go about getting your family rebuilt?

Yeah, so. So, you know, I teach something, it's called the window of willingness. And this is where you, you have. You're the most likely to heal and rebuild with someone or, you know, if many people, or the least likely. And there's a certain level where you're not working with anything. There's nothing to work with there. There's no ownership. There's no taking responsibility. There's no. There's no. Oh, you know, I see what you're saying. So, yeah, here's my part. Here's your report. There's none of that. So you have nothing to work with. And in that case, you rebu rebuild yourself and you move on. And I see one of the biggest crimes that I see in couples is they have nothing to work with, but yet they still keep trying to rebuild. And if there is a recipe for post betrayal syndrome, those symptoms, it's that and in fact, there were three groups in the study who didn't heal. And one of the groups was the group where the betrayer had very little consequence. So whether it was out of religious reasons, that was a big one. Financial fear, just not wanting to break up a family. They just did anything they could just to turn the other cheek, put it behind them. And I saw two things with this group. Number one, a further deterioration of the relationship. And number two, this group by far was the most physically sick. So when you realize you have very little to work with, you just rebuild yourself and you move along. But when there is potential to rebuild and you know it because that other person has the biggest wake up call of their life, as does the person who's been betrayed, there is something to work with there. You may not have any interest in working with that, but if you do, you're actually able to rebuild something completely new that never would have had the opportunity to exist had that not happened. So it's the danger, death and destruction of the old in order to rebirth the new. So in a very long winded way, to answer your question, that was not the case with my family. There was no ownership, there was no taking responsibility. So I healed myself and moved on with my husband. Complete and total wake up, shake up ownership on my end, on his end. And we rebuilt something entirely new.

Oh, that's so cute. That's beautiful. That's so. That's got to give people hope. And I think you're out giving people hope, you know, to know that they may be in a relationship that can actually be rebuilt. Let's talk about this thing called narcissism. I'm guessing you deal with that. And I'm guessing that is, I feel like there's more. Our country is producing more narcissists now than ever because of social media and yada, yada, yada. I mean, whatever that can be argued. But I'd love to just get your take on how to. How do you advise people to deal with narcissism in your family or in your relationships? Maybe help us define what that is. Because look at, I think everybody, no matter who's listening to this, has a narcissist or 10 in their life. What's your advice on that?

Yeah, and I absolutely want to make sure we get to that third discovery. But to answer your question, it's, you know, here's the thing. We all have a degree of narcissism. I mean, it allows us to like get stuff done, you know, but it's what what, what, where are we on that spectrum? When someone is just a full blown narcissist and they just don't have any empathy, you really have nothing to work with there. And we actually, as much as we work with our members within the PBT Institute who are dealing with that, we have a, we have all of our certified coaches, each specialize in something different. And one of our coaches specializes in narcissism. That's her specialty. You can only imagine how busy she is because it's just one of those things you people are, Some people are just, they just lack that empathy. They betray. They don't own it. There's. It's just part of what they wanted to do or for whatever reason. There are so many reasons why someone betrays. And again, how I said before, when that's the case, you have very little to work with. This is not the person who has deep remorse and regret and empathy and they get it. And it is the biggest wake up call of their life. They're just like, all right, well yeah, that's what I did. And what is so upsetting that I see all the time is, you know, here's an easy way to explain it. Let's say a case with a narcissist. I look at trust like a brick wall. Every opportunity someone has that they're to show that they're trustworthy, that's one brick in that brick wall. So it takes a while to build. Right now imagine in one earth shattering move, the entire wall comes tumbling down. The person who's been betrayed can look at the bubble and say, I don't have the least bit of interest in watching that thing get rebuilt. Totally fine, walk away. However, in a case of rebuilding the job of the person who's been betrayed, their job would be a willingness to watch that wall be rebuilt. The other person who shattered it has to be a really good bricklayer. But here's what I see. The narcissist, to answer your question, kind of looks at this rubble of bricks, isn't really all that interested in rebuilding it. So the person who's been betrayed is like, fine, I'll rebuild it. No, that's why they never feel safe. That's why they never trust. That's why they're always hyper vigilant. Because that person didn't own it, didn't wake up, didn't do the rebuilding.

That's like one of my favorite sayings is trust isn't earned in a day, it's earned day by day, right? And that's so True. Tell me why. What are the reasons that people betray? You mentioned that. You said there's a lot of reasons people betray. What are a couple of them? Them?

Yeah. And I will tell you, not any one of them is an excuse for it. So having said that, it could be many reasons. It could be unhealed trauma from childhood. It could be. Usually it's just a lack. There's something missing. And instead of going within to find out what is what is that person ready for what. What is missing in their lives, they just look for something external to fill that void. A sense of entitlement. I mean, it could be anything.

Anything.

It's. There are lots of reasons.

So tell me this. How do you define attitude and who is your first attitude coach? My.

An attitude. How do I define attitude? I really look at attitude as the perspective you take, you know, in anything. It's like, like, look, I was betrayed. I. I could have been the poster child for betrayal, but instead I created an institute to help people heal from it. So you're. You're entitled to. To do whatever you want with your situations. One will take you down and, and one will move you forward. I think it is totally and completely your choice, I would say. Who's my. Who's did you. Was it. Who's my role model? For anybody who's struggling and just is bigger than their struggle, I have such admiration for that.

So when you. What? Yeah. I asked who your first attitude coach was, like, who formed your attitude food?

You know, I hate to say it, but we learn in spite of, because of. And you learn a lot from the people who hurt you the most, so.

Right.

Yeah, it was the people who hurt me the most.

Right. Well, and I think that's common for anybody that is listening. What Talk to us about. Well, I tell you what, let's go to number three because I got my eye on the clock. Let's go to number three.

Sure. This by far was the most exciting for me anyway. And what was discovered was while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime, and so many people do, if we're going to fully heal. And by fully heal, I mean those symptoms of post betrayal syndrome to that completely rebuilt space of post betrayal transformation, we're going to go through five proven predictable stages. And what's even more exciting about that is we know what happens physically, mentally and emotionally at every one of those stages. And we know what it takes to move from one stage to the next. Healing is entirely predictable. Happy to go through the stages.

If you want to hear Them Healing is entirely predictable. And I think healing is also about the attitude, the way you dedicate yourself to the way you think about healing. If you want to heal, you can heal. Some people go, I'm hopeless, I can't be healed. But that's not true. So let's talk about those five stages then go ahead and lay those on us. That's great.

Yeah. And you'll find that what exactly what you said. There's one particular stage where we do that. So it's all. This is what we teach within the institute. It's what all of our coaches are certified in. It's all mapped out in trust. Again, here's a boiled down version. So stage one is before it happens. And if you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional and spiritual. What I saw with everybody was a real heavy lean on the physical and the mental thinking and doing and kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling and being. The table has only two legs. Easy for that table to topple over. That's us. Stage two, shock, trauma, D Day, Discovery Day. And it's the breakdown of the body, the mind and the worldview. The scariest of all of the stages. This is like where someone takes a mask off and reveals who they've been. It is an absolute shock to the body, the mind, the heart. Right here. You've ignited the stress response. You're headed for every single stress related symptom, illness, condition, disease. The mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm. You cannot wrap your mind around what you just learned, makes no sense. And your worldview has just been shattered. Your worldview is your mental model. The rules that govern us, that prevent chaos, don't go there. Trust this person. And in this one moment, every rule is no longer. The bottom has bottomed out and a new bottom hasn't been formed yet. This is terrifying. But think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out a new what would you do? You'd grab hold of anything you could to stay safe and stay alive. And that's stage three. Survival instincts emerge. It's the most practical out of all of the stages. If you can't help me get out of my way, how do I survive this experience? Here's the trap though. Stage three and this to your point, this is the most common place we get stuck. And here's why. Once we've figured out how to survive our experience, because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma of where we just came from. We're like, okay, we think it's good. And because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we don't know there's a stage four or stage five transformation doesn't even begin until stage four. But because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we start parking here, planting roots here. We're not supposed to, but we don't know that. And four things happen. The first thing is you start getting all those, those small self benefits, you know, you get your story, you get sympathy from everyone. You get to be right. We like that, you know, and on some level it feels good. So we plant deeper roots now because we're here longer than we should be, the mind starts doing things like, well, maybe you're not all that great, maybe you deserved it, maybe this, maybe that. So we plant deeper roots now because these are the thoughts we're thinking. Well, this is the energy we're putting out. Like energy attracts like energy. So now we start calling in circumstances and experiences and relationships to confirm this is where we belong. The misery loves company crowd. This is exactly where they come along. It gets worse, but I'll get you out of here because it feels so bad. But we don't know there's anywhere else to go. We're like, I have to get through my day. Like I have to work. Right here is where we start using food, drugs, alcohol, work, tv, anything to numb, avoid and distract yourself from this painful place. So think about this. We do it for a day, a week, a month. Now it's a habit. A year, 10 years, 20 years. And I can see someone 20 years later and say that drinking you're doing, that emotional eating you're doing. Do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? And they would look at me like I'm crazy. They'll say, it happened 20 years ago. All they did did was put themselves in stage three and stay there. Does that make sense?

Yeah, totally. You know, I love it. This is so good and I think it's so helpful for people. So is stage four transformation.

It's where it begins. So if you're. And that's why I wrote from hardened to Healed, I'm like, you owe it to yourself to move completely through the stages. Don't stay stuck in stage three. So from hardened, healed is just for stage three. Anyway, if you are willing, willingness is a big word right here. Willingness to let go of those small self benefits, grieve, mourn the loss, bunch of things you need to do. You move to Stage four. Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. So here's where you acknowledge I can't undo what happened, but I control what I do with it. Right there in that decision, you start turning down the stress response. You're not healing just yet, but at least you stop the massive damage you'd been creating in stages two, two, and stage three. What stage four feels like, if you've ever moved, if you've ever moved to a new house, office, condo apartment, whatever, all your stuff is in there. It's not quite cozy yet, but you're like, okay, okay, we can. We got this. This is okay. That's what it feels like. But think about this. If you were to move, you don't take everything with you. You don't take those things that don't represent who you want to be in your new space. And what I found was if your friends weren't there for you right here in this one spot, you've outgrown them and you don't take. Take them with you. And I hear this all the time, what the heck? I've had these friends 10, 20, 30 years. Is it me? Yes, it is. You're undergoing a transformation, and if they don't rise, they don't come. Very common to outgrow your friends right in this one spot. Anyway. When you've made stage four cozy, you've made it mentally home. You move into the fifth, fifth most beautiful stage, and this is healing, rebirth, and a new worldview. Your body starts to heal. Self love, self care, eating well, exercise, stuff like that. You didn't have the bandwidth for that earlier, now you do. The mind is healing. You're making new rules, you're making new boundaries based on the road you just traveled. And you have a new world view based on everything you see so clearly now and the four legs of the table. In the beginning, it was all about the physical and the mental. By this point, we're solidly grounded because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual, too. Those are the five stages.

That's so cool. Dr. Debbie Silbers, our guest today. If you want help, if you are in a traumatic state, if you are in a state of denial, if you're sad, if you've been betrayed, you need to go to the pbtinstitute.com and start to find your healing there. Let me ask you this. There's probably somebody listening to this, going, yeah, Dr. Debbie, this all sounds good, but I. I'm still pissed. That guy cheated on me five years ago. And I can't get over it. And I'll. I'll go to your website. But, like. Like what? I love the D Day, Discovery Day. Like, what should somebody do if they walk in a room and their spouse is naked having sex with somebody else? Like. Like, do you. Is there a. You know, besides freak out and go nuts? Like, is there a path that somebody should take when it's D Day? Like, what is that advice?

Yeah, that's clearly stage two right there. And that is a shock that is forever imprinted on your body, mind and heart. Everybody who's been through it, you know exactly where you were, exactly where you got that news. It's created for you a psychological earthquake where life has just become compartmentalized into two camps before it happened and after it happened. Now, the good news is I just told you the roadmap. There is a proven predictable. This isn't just me winging it. This is a PhD study on it with people going through it. And now this is all we do within the PBT Institute. All you need to do when you're in stage two is get through stage two so you can get to stage three. When you're in stage three, you do all you need to do to get to Stage four and to get to Stage five. Like, in the Institute, we have certain classes and certain coaches just for stage two and certain master classes. And. And you do that to get to stage three, and then you're like, okay, all right. And then you do the stage three stuff to get you to stage four and stage five, and. And it's like training wheels just until you. You just don't need them. However, there are people that will, and that's that stage three group. They will stay stuck for life. And here's the thing. Yes, you were right. Yes, it was the most horrific, horrible, terrible, awful thing ever. Yes. And you deserve to heal.

So how do you deal with somebody who just can't move on? You're like, dude, I get it. I'm tired. We've heard the story a thousand times. I can't listen to this anymore. Like, what do you do with those people?

Yeah. Well, I'll tell you. We have so many people coming into the Institute with therapy, trauma, and if, like, for example, if a therapist isn't highly skilled in betrayal, it does so much more harm than good. Because if they're not highly skilled, they will just help you unpack your story and talk about your story and talk about your story and talk about your story, and if anything has you glued to your Story like crazy glue. It's and to stage three, it's going over it endlessly without a plan to move towards that next stage. So if someone doesn't even think, feel, believe it's possible to move forward, they are deeply stuck in stage three. And it. Healing, healing and, and staying stuck is a choice. There is a proven roadmap. If you're staying stuck, it's only because you don't think you can heal or you'd rather have your story totally fine, but you can heal from all of it. I didn't do anything anyone else couldn't do.

The. When I think about betrayal, I think, you know, the obvious is man and woman betraying. Right. I think there's a lot of betrayal out there that people don't know, don't identify it or they don't. The meaning isn't there. So just give me like some people may go, oh crap, that's betrayal. I didn't know that. Right. So like can you just maybe hit. Hey guys, look at if this is happening, this is betrayal and we can help. Like what are the scenarios?

Sure. So I mean, I define it as the breaking of a spoken or unspoken rule. Every relationship has them. The way it works is the more we trust it and the more we depended on that person, the deeper the betrayal. So for example, a child who's totally dependent on their parent and the parent does something awful, that's going to have a different impact than let's say your co worker taking credit for your idea. But you know, there are so many examples. Your coworker taking credit for your idea. Your best friend sharing your secret. Your siblings saying, you know, one day when mom and dad need us, we'll be there for them and then it's time and where are they? The, you know, your, your partner at work stealing the, the company fund. You know, I mean, it's endless. Someone taking advantage of a position of authority. Anything where, you know, the rule was, the spoken or unspoken rule is without our awareness or consent, someone broke that rule. That's a betrayal.

Wow. You just got me thinking about like the me too movement, which nobody ever talks about hardly anymore. Like what was your take on that? What was your thought about that? Healthy, unhealthy. What?

It's horrific betrayal right here. It's, it's again, here's a scenario where someone was betrayed and all of these, these girls, women were betrayed and then out of fear, they're. They're keeping it quite. Look, we hear about this in. I hate to talk about, you know, different Religious institutions look at what goes on behind the scenes so often as well.

Right.

With young kids. So it's. It's anything where here someone's in a position of authority.

Right.

That. That younger person that. That person who believes in them takes advantage of that. That's betrayal. That's betrayal. I mean, it's just. It is so wrong on so many levels, and it takes a tremendous amount to heal.

How do you coach somebody through fear? Like, you know when people are like, yeah, I got something I need to say, but I'm afraid. Like, what. What's your take on fear? And what's your antidote for fear? Yeah.

You know, so often at the highest level, one of our programs called Transform members are working with me personally, and it's a question I ask them a lot. If you weren't afraid, what would you do? Because so often they. They're staying or they're. Or whatever their actions are, they're motivated by fear. And it's amazing when I. I say, okay, don't overthink it. If you weren't afraid, what. What would you do? And the answer comes so quickly. So then they are confronted with the reality of, here's your truth and fear is keeping you from doing what you feel is right. Or I'll say something like, let's say they have kids or someone they love. If the person you love came to you with exactly the same scenario, what would you tell them? They don't like hearing it, but that's the truth.

Yeah, that's cool. All right, Debbie. Well, we are going to do something that we do with all of our guests. This is supposed to be fun, and we can edit it, but you're going to do just fine. And it's called Knowledge through the Decades. And I just want to walk through your life and each decade of your life and ask you what the attitude lesson that you got at certain ages. 10, 20, 30. I don't even know if you're 40. You look very young.

Debbie, I've been around a whole lot of decades, way more than that.

Okay, well, we're going to get to them all. So I want you to think about the birth of your children or your birth. What do you think the attitude lesson is in New Beginnings or birth?

Wow. Endless potential. We'll figure this out.

I love it. Right? And we all have endless potential, and we encourage you. I'm telling you, you're awesome. You're an awesome guest. I think you got so much to give. And if you're listening now, you have endless potential. If you want to tap into your endless potential and create the destiny that you should have, I suggest that you go to Debbie's website, which again is the pbt. All right, I want you to think about Debbie when you were 10 years old. That's like third or fourth grade. Did you have a, A incident or what? What was your attitude lesson when you were 10? Think back about it, whether you were bullied or whatever, hell, I don't know. But certainly there had to be a lesson when you go back to 10.

Yeah, there was. Oh, I, I remember this is, this was huge. I remember that was the first time and it was so profound. I remember exactly where I was. I said, what if it's not me?

Wow.

Like, I was always told what went wrong, what this, it was all me, my fault. And I remember it like the shock of that thought entering into my head, it just rocked my world. And I was like, what if it's not me?

And you've said that quite a bit today, which is pretty interesting, I guess, in the other way. But what if it's not me? And you think that is a healing question for everybody that's listening, right? From 10 year old Debbie, this thing became right. So now you're 20, you've graduated from high school. I'm curious, where did you go to college? Do you remember turning 20 and what was your attitude lesson when you were 20?

Yeah, so I did. I actually graduated with a double major, TV production, broadcast journalism. I thought I was going to be a big time producer behind the scenes and then it wasn't rewarding at all for me. And I was like, you know what, I just want to help people and I have no idea how to do that. So I met up with my college roommate one day and she's like, are you bored with your work? Like, you have no idea. She said, let's go back to school, let's take a class. I just sign me up. I don't even care what you sign me up for. And she calls back, she goes, let's take it towards something. Let's be dietitians. And I was like, okay. So I signed up for an MSRD combination holistic dietitian. And she never did. And it put me on a whole, on a health path. And what's so crazy, years later I met up with another friend and she's like, do you want to go back to school or something? I'm like, you have no idea. And she said. And I was like, but I don't know what to do that in like holistic nutrition, I don't know. And she goes, well, I heard about this transpersonal psychology. I'm like, what the heck is that? She told me. And I was like, oh, that sounds really good. I signed up. She never did.

I'll be darn. So the, the nutrition aspect was really the attitude lesson, right? What. What goes in your body matters. And I'm guessing you've had a strict diet ever since you've done that. Because what's the worst thing that people can put in their body besides alcohol, smoke, and drugs?

Yeah, I mean, it's just when you're. Well, as much as it's what you're putting in your body, it's. Why, when you're just numbing, when you're using food to numb, avoid, distract yourself, Yourself. It's just you're. You're shutting yourself up from hearing the message you're meant to hear. I remember working with someone at the time. I was working in weight loss a million years ago, and. And she was an emotional leader, and, and at least 100, 200 pounds overweight. And I said to her, you know why? And she said, I eat so I don't feel. And I, I. I don't feel, so I don't respond, because if I do, if I start crying, I'll never stop. I mean, that's why people do it.

That is just so powerful. What do you tell the. My wife has a little bit of this problem. She likes to just sit in front of the cabinet and look at stuff.

Here's the question. Here's the question to ask. What am I really hungry for?

Right, Right. I love it.

Downtime, intimacy. Something fulfilling, something. It's not the food. The food's. The food's just being used to numb from that feeling.

That is so powerful, Debbie. That is so good. All right, you're 30. Tell me about when you turn 30. Do you remember where you were? I'm guessing you maybe had some kids. What was the attitude lesson when you turned 30?

Yeah, I had. I had two. So I had. They were 16 months apart, and actually, I had peritonitis, which landed me in the ICU for 11 days. It's a miracle I'm alive, let alone have two kids after that. And it was right around that time, and there's. It. It truly is a miracle to be alive and heal from something like that. And I realized at that point, the mind is so much more powerful than we know. I'll never forget laying in that. In that hospital bed. Bed. Just going from the morphine drip to passing out in pain. Back and forth, back and forth. And I just couldn't do it anymore. And then, I don't know, this surge of anger, rage, I don't even know what you want to call it, came over me and I was like, I don't, I don't know, you know, how I'm going to do this, but I have these kids signed up as me, as their mom and, And I can't check out. So I, I need to get healthy. I know that decision was the reason why I healed.

Wow, that is, that's something. All right. So quite a, quite an event there at 30. I can't wait to learn about what you did at 40. So do you remember turning 40 and what was your attitude lesson at 40?

Yeah. So 40. So now I had all my kids, all four kids, six dogs, this thriving practice. Looking at it now, I look back at that version of me, and I was just trying so hard just to do everything and be everything. And I crashed more than once with adrenal fatigue and just pushing myself too hard and just trying to do everything. Just I. And I. I see so many women especially doing this where just because you can doesn't mean you should. And it cost me my health.

Yeah. And I think, boy, we see that a lot. I mean, in our demographics of our show, we got a lot of female 40 year olds and man, the weight of the world. Mom, career, superwoman. You know, I mean, I look around and I'm like, my God, these people are miserable. They turn into zombies. What's your advice for the person that is feeling, you know, they're, they're kicking ass. They're doing it and they're, they're saying they're strong, but they know deep down. I don't know how many more days I got left. What's your advice to those people?

Yeah, because I was one of them. And I would say a few things. First of all, choose your regrets. You can't do it all. You just can't. But when you look back, go forward and look back and what, what kind of sucks less, you know, because you want to do everything, but it's not physically possible at the same time anyway. And I remember always feeling like I had one foot on the gas and one foot on the brake all the time. I wanted to blow up my business, but I wanted to be there from the kids. And what I decided was the business may be a little bit slower as I'm raising the kids, but I'm going to have a strong, solid relationship with them when I get there. So it's a choice you make, but which. Which regret hurts less.

I got it. All right, give me your best parenting tip.

Best parenting tip. Love them fiercely. Let them know there is nothing they can say or do to ever make you not love them. Own your stuff. Do the best you can, and let them know that. That you're just. You're. You're just trying. You're not going to always get it right, and. And when you get it wrong, you're going to own it.

And not to be judgmental, but you see a lot of people. What's the biggest parenting blunder that people are making right now? I mean, as you get all these people that come through, certainly there's got to be this overwhelming thing, and you're going, seriously? Yeah, you too.

You know, the thing that immediately comes to mind is parents aren't cleaning up their stuff, and it's. It's affecting their kids in the worst kind of way. So whether you're a parent who hasn't cleaned up your unhealed betrayal, it's affecting you on every level.

Wow.

Your kids are watching way more than you think. They're showing what being knocked down looks like and what sitting there swarming in stage three looks like. Let them see you crash, but let them see you rise.

I love it. I love it. All right, so are you 50?

I'm 56.

All right, baby. So we got our last decade. Tell me.

I can't believe I just told you. It's all good.

We can edit it out.

You look f. No, no, go ahead.

You look very young for 56. You're. Yeah, I'm 54. So there you go. We're about same class. So do you remember turning 50 and, like, what was your attitude lesson at 50 when you went, Holy crap, I'm 50? What?

Yeah, I. I gotta say, in my case, that's where life began. It really did. I mean, think about. I was through the worst of it. My betrayal was over. I was healing. And now I learned something so power powerful that I was like, wait a second, I'm gonna help countless people with what we've learned. So the PBT Institute was birthed, and our certification. So we can help so many people, and they could all that the coaches could have their reach and. And our family became so much stronger and more solid. And life started getting really fun. At 50, my husband and I are better than ever, you know, because we're totally new people. Like, same people, but not. Not the same. So life got really Fun.

Yeah. Awesome. I feel that. Well, Debbie, you have been just a blessing and a light. You shine the light, which is season three of the Get Attitude podcast is Carry the Light. And boy, did you carry the light. Something just unreal. You gave us so many great answers, so many golden nuggets. And I know that the people all over the country, all over the world that are listening this are going to be looking you up, going to the the PPT Institute. We always like to give you an opportunity to talk one on one to the person that's walking on the beach, that's sitting in the car crying, whatever. What's your message of hope that you just want to give our gappers, our Get Attitude podcast audience. We just love to hear your message of hope for them.

Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so much. It's people like you that give people like me a voice. So I'm deeply grateful. You know, I would really say to everybody, I didn't do number one. I didn't do anything you couldn't do. There's a roadmap now. Just keep moving forward. And even if you have to say this to yourself a million times, it's worth it. Even though it happened to you, it's not about you. It's not about you. Do the work to heal. Whether you heal and rebuild yourself and move along, or heal and rebuild and create something entirely new with that person who hurt you. Both are, you know, can be options based on your scenario, but do not stay stuck.

I love it. And gappers, you just need to go to the PBT Institute. If you need to get attitude about your betrayal and your transformation, Debbie is the one and only person to do that for you. Dr. Debbie, thank you so much for being here. We just loved having you on the Get Attitude podcast.

Thank you.