Bridging the GAP form Auto Mechanic to the Utah Jazz with Mark Eaton

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You play, you know, five games and seven nights in five different cities. And so you can have a great attitude one day, but then two days later, you know, you're, you're a couple cities further into the road trip and it has a tendency to wane and get more difficult. And so that's when I really had to double down on the sports psychology and, and get in my head a little bit to get my, the best performance out of my body I could each given night. Yeah, so that's, that's, that was the general attitude.

And then do you, when you think about attitude, how would define it or you know, how would you describe it? Not maybe yours, but just this whole concept of attitude. Or, you know, maybe you can think about some of the people you played against. But what does attitude mean to you? I guess is what I'm getting at.

Attitude to me being means bringing. Well, let me start that over again. I think attitude to me means bringing the highest possible vibration to a situation. There are so many ways that you can look at your approach mentally to a job or performance. And I think to get out of the lower level vibrations of fear and concern and worry and get into the higher vibrations of performance, of seeing the bigger picture of giving your body every chance it has to compete at the highest level. That's what I spent most of my time focused on. And I still do that in the business world today in terms of how I look at going on stage and speaking to 2,000 people or putting together a proposal or making a sales pitch, whatever it is. I always want the best for everybody around me and I want the best for me at the same time. And creating a kind of win, win attitude at the beginning of a conversation and trying to keep it alive during the ups and downs of a negotiation or whatever the case may be. And we've had a lot of challenges the last few months with COVID that have affected all of our businesses. And so just trying to maintain that proper attitude has really been helpful.

And so, yeah, you know, you said a couple key things there. You used to play in front of 20, 30, 60,000 people, but now you go and walk up on a stage of 2000. Is that dynamic of performance different? And are you more nervous being a speaker because you hadn't spoken all your life as compared to this thing called basketball, where you probably had spent 20, 30 years doing that?

Yeah. Speaking is different because when you get on stage, even different than being a television commentator where you can just kind of talk about whatever you want. I think on stage, you get up there and people say, well, who are you? You know, what are you going to tell me? And what could you possibly know about my life? And being able to bring a message that is impactful, that has strong takeaways, that resonates with an audience, I think makes me more nervous than going out and playing in front of 20,000 people. But I really like it and I enjoy the challenge.

Yeah, the pressure's on. I coached football for 25 years and played as well. And I always say that speaking is the closest thing to Dame game day that I can get anymore.

It is because you get up there and you have a short period of time of, you know, 45 minutes or an hour, an hour and a half to give it your best. And you want people to walk away inspired and feel differently about themselves. And so it is a lot of pressure and stress, and it can be exhausting at times. And then afterwards, of course, you're just like. You feel like you ran a marathon.

Yeah. Isn't that the truth? And so why don't we just get into the book a little bit, which I'm sure parallels with when you keynote speak and when you coach the businesses and teams that you do, the four commitments of a winning team. Can we maybe run down those four? We can take it one at a time and maybe dig into a little bit. What's commitment number one?

Commitment number one is about knowing your job and focusing on that one thing you're excellent at. And in the book, I tell a story about being at UCLA and sitting on the end of the bench and not playing very much. And during the summer we would get together and play these pickup games or practice games, which in Los Angeles were like NBA All Star games. I mean, all the great players from the Lakers. Anybody that grew up in la, which is a basketball mecca, showed up there. So Magic Johnson was there every day and guys like that. And I was running up, down the court trying to chase these much quicker, faster teams. Because, of course, as you go up in each level in college basketball, the players get faster, they're stronger, they're quicker. And I just couldn't figure out what to do. I was soon to be behind the play all the time, out of the play all the time. And I was pretty frustrated. And so I was standing over on the sideline one day and kind of holding my shorts and feeling sorry for myself. And I feel this big, large hand on my shoulder. Well, I turn around and it's Wilt Chamberlain.

Oh my God.

And he was exactly. He would come down from his house up above UCLA and still play basketball with us even after he retired. He was such an amazing athlete. And so he pulled me aside and he said, you know, first of all, young fellow, you're never going to catch those smaller, quicker players. And secondly, why are you doing that? Because it's not your job. And he took me out of the court and he put me kind of right in front of the basket. And he said, you see this basket behind you? He said, your job is to stop players from getting there. Your job is to make them miss their shots, then collect the rebound and throw it up to the guard and let them go down the other end and score it. And your job is kind of cruise up to half court, see what's going on. And it was this amazing light bulb experience for me because it was like all of a sudden the whole game of basketball made sense. Right?

Cool.

And it took the mystery out of all these things I was trying to do. I was trying to run faster, I was trying to dribble better, I was trying to shoot better. He's like, no, stop all that. He's like, just do this one thing. Cool. And I turned that one thing into a 12 year NBA career playing defense and blocking shots. And so I call that knowing your job. What's that one thing you're excellent at? What's that character traitor skill that you have that you really need to double down on. And that's the place to start. And it's the foundation of a winning team.

And my guess is that you probably weren't having a lot of fun before you found your one thing.

No, I wasn't. It was a lot of work and I just didn't seem to be getting anywhere. And once he showed me, it's like the whole game became much clearer. I could see it from a new level and I, and I understood how my contribution would make a difference out there on the court if I focused on the one thing that I was great at.

And then when you think about your one thing, which is blocking shots, getting rebounds, defending that rim, all defensive in basketball, talk to me about on that offensive end. What was your mindset there? And was there one thing that you focused on most on the offensive end?

Well, in the offensive end, you know, I wasn't obviously the first priority in offense because I played with great players like Adrian Dantley and Karl Malone, John Stockton, and those guys did the brunt of the scoring. They really didn't need me to do that. So I just tried to focus on where could I find an opportunity to score. So I tried to find little seams in places where the defense would kind of forget about me because I wasn't the, you know, the big threat offensively. And so I would make contact, eye contact with John Stockton and just go to the rim and get an easy lob pass when the defense had forgotten about me or going to get offensive rebounds. And I had. I had some moves, too. I had pretty good hook shot, you know, turnaround, bank shot, things like that that I focused on. But. But my primary job on the team was to play defense, and I knew that. And that's what kept me in the league for 12 years, was. Was protecting my teammates, which we'll talk about in a minute in the fourth. Commitment.

That's cool. So you mentioned some pretty cool players. Adrian Dantley, if I remember. Notre Dame guy. Correct, Correct. Right. And so I'm from Indiana, so, you know, we think that we have basketball in Indiana. That's good, right? Who, how was AD as a scorer? Would you say he was better than all the other guys that you matter? Out of those four, who do you think was the best scorer?

Adrian Dantley was a very focused, committed player, took great care of his body, ready to play every single day, very singularly focused on scoring. And I actually got along with him pretty well. He could be challenging sometimes as a teammate, but he gave you 30 points every day, and you could count on it, like consistency. So that was a big part of the beginning of our team in the early 80s of the jazz, when we weren't very good. He was kind of our star guy and I think helped us set the foundation for what was going to come next when Karl Malone and John Stockton showed up. Right.

And so he obviously thought his job was to score and shoot at will whenever he wished.

Well, and he'd made a good living doing that, so you couldn't fault him for that. But going forward, as our team evolved, it was apparent that we need. Needed players who maybe shared the ball better or more, and a more integrated offense that included more people. And so eventually, as Karl Malone came into his own, they traded AD To.

Seattle Was it Detroit To Detroit for.

Kelly Tripucca and Kent Benson, another Indiana guy. And then the team sort of evolved. And it's unfortunate when guys have to move on like that, but it's part of the game and it's part of the evolution of sports as well as it is in business.

Sure. And Kelly Tripucca, another Notre Damer.

Correct. Yeah.

How about that? Okay, well, let's go on to commitment number two.

Commitment number two is about doing what you've been asked to do. That your job in business is to not to do what you think is best, but to do what you've been asked. And are you really clear about what other people want from you? And when I was in junior college, I had a coach, one who my background is that I was 21 years old and I was an auto mechanic working in Southern California. And a junior college coach came along and convinced me to give basketball another try. So fast forward a few years after I went back and I was at UCLA and I wasn't playing, my junior college coach told me, he said, look, you know, we got into this arrangement to try and play basketball again with the intent of going to the NBA or playing in Europe and playing professionally somewhere. So he said, you can't get so caught up in what is. What. What is happening today. So if you're not going to play in the games at ucla, you're gonna have to make the practices your games. You have to be the first guy at practice and last to leave, continue to do your shooting and you're running and hit the weight room, because at some point in time, you will have an opportunity to try out at the next level. And things weren't going very well for me at that point in time, but the things I could control were what he asked me to do. So I was in the gym, first guy and last guy to leave and did my running and do my shooting. And later on, I did have an opportunity to try out for an NBA team because I did those things. So I think in business, we forget that sometimes we think we have the best product or we're out there selling the best thing when we forget to ask our customers or even our boss, like, are there other things I should be doing? Is there anything else I should be more focused on? And then, you know, on a scale of 1 to 10, how well am I executing those requests? I think that's a good place to look at. So it's called doing what you've been asked to do.

Yeah, that's good. So let's just dig down that rabbit hole. Being an auto mechanic with hands that big must be hard.

Well, the hands were only one part problem. Being 7 foot 4 was the other big problem. Didn't work too well for getting underneath the rack and getting in and out of small cars. And it was, you know, I just coming out of high school, I didn't have a lot of options. I wasn't very good in high school and I just kind of gave up sports. And I'd grown up in a rather mechanical family. My father was a marine diesel mechanic and so I grew up working on boats. And I went, decided to go to trade school for a year, learned to be an auto mechanic because it just didn't really have any other options. And so that's what I did after high school. And then I spent two years working in this tire store in Southern California doing brake jobs and tune ups and front end alignments, et cetera. Wow. And this junior college coach cruised around the corner one day and saw me there and came in and said, you know, what the heck are you doing working here and why aren't you playing basketball?

So who, so who was that junior college coach?

His name was Tom Lubin and he was a chemistry professor at this place called Cypress College, which is in Cypress, California, near Buena park, maybe about 15 minutes from Disneyland. And he had worked with another guy by the name of Swen Nader. And in Tom's background was his great uncle, was a guy named Frank Lubin, who was a Lithuanian player who was one of the first, quote unquote, big men in the US and he had taught Tom some basic low post moves that you could do with the basketball without much dribbling. And he taught those to Swin, who went on to play at UCLA behind Bill Walton and then went on to a great ABA and NBA career. And so he had this specific knowledge of how to play basketball as a big man that I'd never heard of or seen of. And when he showed it to me, it was kind of mind blowing. I was like, wow. I didn't know this part of basketball existed because in high school everybody was just taught how to play basketball the same way. There was no real specificity, I can't even say that today. Specificity.

No, that's right.

I think you're right to, you know, to individual players in the game. And when he showed me how a big guy could play basketball, I was like, oh, wow, that's kind of interesting. And so I agreed to start working out with him after work a few Days and which turned into four months, which turned into me going to junior college because he had that understanding of a big guy basketball. And probably more importantly was his commitment to me. Because he said when we started, he said, look, if you're willing to do this, I'll be here for you every morning, every afternoon to help you. And I don't want anything from you. I'm just going to show you how to do it. Because that's what I like to do. I coach. So he'd meet me at six in the morning, we'd run for an hour before I went to work, and then after work, we'd spend two more hours in the gym doing hook shots and bank shots and running drills and agility drills and weight room stuff and showing me how to be an athlete. And so that's how it started.

So did, did Tom know you? Did he just see you in, in this, in the, in the garage? Because what.

He came around the corner and it was a very busy intersection where I worked at. And I was out at the corner talking to a customer that was much shorter than me. And he saw this seven foot tall guy standing there and of course, being a basketball coach, who's that guy? So he pulled in and started giving me the once for, you know, once over about basketball and, you know, and kind of get in my face a little bit about it. Because he was like this chemistry science professor is a little on the hyperactive side, right? And I was like, buddy, back up, back up. Like slow down. But he was so excited to tell me all these things he knew about basketball and it took him a while to convince me to try it, but once I did, I said, all right, I'll, you know, I'll, I'll give this a whirl and see where it goes.

And his personal commitment to you, my guess is you guys probably ended up pretty close.

And yeah, we remained friends for over 40 years. He just passed away this summer.

I'm sorry to hear that. Well, that's, I mean, that's just a pretty darn cool story. Now, working in a garage, because I have some experience with this. There's always a. Either a boss that's always riding you or a co worker that's always making you cut up. I just want to know, was there a personality when you were working at those garages that you remember? And if not, that's fine. Was there an attitude lesson that when you were spending those two years in the garage that you could tell to our people to help them bridge the gap from who they are to who they want to become. If you can put yourself back there.

Well, I, you know, I was, I was a 20 year old. I didn't, you know, I thought I knew a lot about life. Right, right. But the, the humbling part of the job was that it was straight commission. So I had to sell all my own work. So when you brought the car in, I had to figure out what was wrong with the car, determine what the, what parts were needed, how much labor is going to be, and then call the customer on the phone and sell the job. So the manager was always on us about sell, sell, sell, sell, sell. Right. They get some, see if they need some shock absorbers, see what else do you need upsell besides the break job? Right. How about a lifetime alignment policy? You know, things like that?

That's great.

And so that used to frustrate me sometimes. But the good part about it was the more work I sold and the more work I did, the more money I made. And I liked that part. So the attitude part just kind of came naturally with that. And then I think once I started playing basketball, I probably took a step back in attitude because it was frustrating. Hard work, and when you're 7ft tall, everybody's looking at you. My first year in junior college was challenging because all of a sudden, out of the blue, here's a 7 foot 4 inch auto mechanic who's now playing basketball. You're in LA, which is a pretty big market. And all of a sudden I started getting attention from the press and from newspaper reporters and local TV stations and things like that. And that was kind of difficult because there was a lot of naysayers that thought I couldn't do it. And that provided some motivation, but it challenged my attitude.

Yeah, very interesting. Okay, well, let's go to number three and the four commitments. What would that be?

Number three is make people look good.

Love it.

When I first came to the utah jazz in 1982, they were a bad team in a bad market on the verge of going out of business. Averaged about 5,000 fans a night. And the NBA was in kind of a difficult shape overall. And, and our coach, Frank Layden, who's a great man, who was from New York, coached at Niagara, had been in the army. He had this kind of blue collar attitude about everything. And he said, you know, look, he said, if you guys will stop competing with each other so much and start cooperating with each other, the individual accolades would follow. Because when you're playing on a bad team, all people really care about Is how many minutes do I play, how many shots am I going to get up? What's my scoring average? And how can I negotiate a new contract based on my scoring average? And he said no. He said, look, if you guys will start playing together and start cooperating a little more, he said, and the individual accolades show up, the rest will take care of itself. And so we had to learn to start trusting each other a little bit more and passing the ball a bit more and helping our teammates score because as we started winning, wow. The rest came with it. The notoriety came with it, the accolades came with it. And all of a sudden we were viewed as better players simply because fact that we were on a winning team as opposed to a losing team.

Sure.

So that one's called make people look good. So I asked a question, my presentation, how focused are you making people you work with look good? On a scale of 1 to 10, is there one thing you could do to improve that score in the next week? Somebody you need to buy a cup of coffee for, somebody you need to check in with, somebody just need to give a call to. That's called making people look good.

Yeah, that's great. Now, Frank Layden, definitely a well thought of coach. What attitude? You said he was blue collar. He was kind of hard, kind of grit. Any other lessons that he taught you? And then I know that Jerry Sloan came in, I'd love to hear what his attitude. I have a feeling they were probably similar. Was he an assistant with Layden on that team?

He was, yeah. Okay. And later became the head coach.

Right. And so, yeah, those, you know, Frank.

Was a guy who kept it real. You know, he'd tell us, hey, when's the last time you called your high school coach or you know, did you send your mother something for Mother's Day? Or, you know, he kept everything in perspective in the rather surrealistic world of the NBA and professional sports. Right. And I think and connected us and created a family culture from this disparate group of players who were kind of cast offs from other teams or players like myself that didn't have a lot of experience. And then Jerry Sloan came in and took that nucleus of what Frank had put together and said, okay, now I'm going to challenge it a little more. I'm going to make it go a little higher, I'm going to focus you guys a little bit more and demand more from you on a daily basis in terms of your preparation, your focus, your attention to the details of the game. And that helped propel the team to Even greater heights by doing that. And Jerry was. The great thing about Jerry Sloan is he very consistent. He was the same way day in and day out. You could count on him. Frank was a little more of an emotional coach, had a little bit more ups and downs emotionally. And Jerry was just flat consistent. And he knew exactly what was expected of you day in and day out. And I always appreciated that. And I think that's so important for business as well, because players and business people, workers, employees, want to know, how do I win? Right. What is it going to take? How do I win? And a lot of times as leaders, we don't give them that clarity. We're like, well, things are moving, changing. We're reorganizing now we've been bought by another company, whatever it is. And I think your job as a boss or leader, as a coach, is to really give that clear direction so that everybody knows where they stand and what's expected of them. And that's what Jerry Sloan did for us.

Yeah, I mean, probably one of the best leadership messages that the gaps heard is being very clear on how I win. And it's amazing. Sometimes leaders don't know, you know, what they even should be telling their subordinates or their employees on what it means to win. Right, right.

And it definitely starts at the top and trickles down. But I think. I think regardless of that, if you're running a division or a small sales team, like, you've got to come up with something because the team is counting on you for that. That clarity.

Yeah. For that measurable. What was the greatest season you ever had? And my guess would be it would coincide with the greatest season the Utah Jazz ever had. Do you remember that season and anything about that season?

Well, I had a lot of great seasons, I think, early on when we were kind of that poor team in a bad market. And over the next couple succeeding seasons after that, we got ourselves together, we started winning, we started believing in each other. And I think it was 85 was our second year making the playoffs. We had won the division the year before, and I broke the NBA record for the most blocked shots in a single season, which still stands today. And to me, that was a big deal. And then about four years after that, I made the All Star team, which was. And I was voted in by the coaches, which meant more to me, actually, than being voted in by the fans, because when your peers appreciate and respect you, that's a big deal. And I remember the first time I felt like I'd made it was my rookie Season, we were playing the Dallas Mavericks, which had just been in existence for a couple years at that point in time. And, and I wasn't starting yet, and Frank Layton put me in the game in the second quarter and I blocked like six shots in five minutes. Wow. And I remember turning and running up the court after one of those block shots and looking over to the coaches and they were all looking at each other going, you know, like, yeah. And I thought, okay, I can do this job.

I love it. So back in 1986, I would have been a senior in high school playing varsity basketball as a 63 center. And yes, my number was number 53, baby.

Gotta love it, gotta love it.

I always used to tell people I was Mark Eaton, man. That's why it's so cool to be able to interview you. Okay, so we've, we've gone through, I believe, the third, the third one, which is make everybody look good. And then number four to finish it off on the four commitments.

Number four is protecting others. So what I did on the basketball court was I protected my teammates. They knew that if they went out to try and steal the ball out on the wing, that I would get between their man and the basket if they missed.

Right.

And my teammates knew they could count on me. They knew that I had their back. And that's why I call it protecting others. I think it's the key to trust. I think it's the key to loyalty as really letting people know that you're there for them. And it goes beyond just the workplace. Now, it doesn't mean you have to go have dinner with all your employees or anything like that, but it does mean that while they're at work that you care about them, you're concerned about them, you're there for them. They know they can come and talk to you. And it's kind of the open door policy. You still expect them to do their jobs, but they want to know that you care. And I think you look at all the statistics and studies about employee satisfaction and salary, always comes in about number three. Right, right. It's always about, I want to know that I make a difference. I know that. I know that. I want to know that people here care about me. And so I think as a coach, that's important for you. And as a basketball player, that's what I did well on the court and still do in the world of business today was whoever's in the audience, whoever I'm speaking for, I'm working for. I just want you to know I'm here for you, and I'll do whatever I can to help you be successful. And I think that's all that anybody asks when it comes to going to work.

Well, I know in your keynote speaking business, you have quite a big following and a lot of presentations when it comes to safety. And safety is a huge platform for keynote speakers. So I'm guessing commitment number four comes in there. Talk to us a little bit about that whole world of safety and some of the messages you share for that marketplace.

Yeah, and that was an interesting avenue that just showed up out of my speaking. I spoke to one utility company in Kansas that a friend of mine recommended me to for, and it just became a thing. Making people look good and protecting each other's backs are a key component of safety and different than just all the rules and regulations of what you need to do to stay safe at work.

Sure.

And so it turned into this core part of my business. And I've been in, you know, in power generation plants and, you know, oil refineries and everything else in the world of safety. I've done, I don't know, 200 or so safety presentations around the country. And they like the message because it's simple, it's easy to implement, and you can't find any conflict. I don't believe in the world of safety. It doesn't go back to one of those four commitments of knowing your job, doing what you've been asked to do, making people look good, or protecting your teammates. And so it resonates well, and it's been really fun because I've got to meet some really interesting people. I've been in some very interesting situations to really see how our country works and operates at the core level when it comes to the industrial side or the oil and gas side or the utility side. And so, again, it wasn't something I started out doing, but as I started speaking, doing more and more, it was. Something just opened up and I said, wow, this is really cool. And of course, the guy with a mechanical background, I'm always like, wow, how do things work? Like, let me. Let me check this out a little further because. Can you show me around a little bit more? Yeah, I don't think most speakers do that, but I'm like, show me. You guys do what? How does that work? And it's just fascinating. One time I spoke for the Specialized Carriers and Rigging Association. So these are the guys that, like, move hotels down the street or remove the head of your nuclear reactor or, you know, and so I've had an Opportunity to learn about all kinds of fascinating industries that way.

Yeah, that's so cool. I have a lot of friends that are in the speaking business. I represent people in the speaking. I have a. The University of Attitude has a speaker's bureau and we're always looking for a safety speaker. So I may email you later after this and see if I can help get you booked.

Well, thank you.

Sure. Okay, so we had mentioned teammates and protecting your teammates. If it's okay, I'd love to just kind of get the attitude lesson from some of the teammates that you had and, you know, not looking for anything negative, but really when you think of the teammates you've had, you've had some hall of Famers, and I'd love to just get a little glimpse. We had Duan Daniels from the New England Patriots talk about us and we kind of did the same thing and it was shocking. You know what? People think they know you guys. They think they actually know famous people or pro athletes. But boy, you know what? Only the people in the locker room do. So if it's okay, I'd love to just ask maybe about like Karl Malone's attitude. What's Carl's attitude and what's the lesson you learned from him?

You know, Karl Malone came in the NBA with a lot of energy out of Louisiana Tech and was trying to kind of do this, do everything out on the court. And Adrian Antley actually had a big impact on him by saying, look, you know, you need to take better care of your body. This is a long term season and you can't be running into the stands and doing all this crazy stuff all the time. You know, you're not gonna, you're not gonna last very long. And helped him really focus in on his scoring. And over the next couple of years, Carl spent a large amount of time in the weight room, got himself stronger, got quicker, and playing low post down there next to the basket. They're not gonna call the fouls on you. They just can't. He got fouled every time he went to the basket and he actually had to learn how to go through people to get to the basket because that was the only way he was gonna score. And. And he knew he wasn't going to get all the calls. And so he took this rather superman kind of attitude about it of I'm going to be ready to play every single night. And John Stockton helped him a lot with that too, because he came to play every single night. And if you want to look at something remarkable, go back and look at those two guys careers, at how many games they missed due to injury. And you'll find it's a rather negligible number out of the 18 and 19 years those guys played, respectively.

Amazing.

So that added that. That what happened is that for us, the coach can come in and say, hey, you guys need to be in better shape. You need to be ready to play. All these things that they would tell us over and over again. But when those guys embodied that philosophy and came to training camp in better shape than anybody else and outran everybody in the drills, the other guys on the team got the message and they got themselves in better shape. Not because the coaches were saying it, but because it was expected of them from their teammates. And I always found that interesting that the coach actually had to do less in terms of harping on people about conditioning. And the players did it themselves just simply by the fact that, hey, you know what? John and Carl are out there and they didn't take games off when they got hurt. They just tape it up and say, let's go. You know, they'd have fingers going sideways and everyone else and they'd say, come on, let's go. And you'd come limping in the locker room and John Sackman was looking at you like, you will be out there tonight, right? Yes, John, I will. Yes.

No load management back then, right?

No, no load management. Oh, you want to get Karl Malone going? Just bring up that subject.

Really?

Yeah. Oh, my goodness.

I know Bo Schembechler always used to say that his captains, you know, leadership is just an extension of the head coach. And I think that phenomena that you talked about kind of exemplifies that. Excluding those two. When you think of attitude of somebody you played with, no matter what the level is, who. Who had the best attitude, you think that that was your teammate. Excluding those two in your long career?

Well, you know, I think one of the hardest jobs in the NBA is to be the sixth man. And in my book, I interviewed a couple of guys that I played with, Thurl Bailey and Tyrone Corbin, later in my career. And Thurl had come from NC State, Jimmy Valvano been on the national championship team, and when he came to the Jazz, they asked him to be the sixth man to provide that spark off the bench. And that's a real challenging thing for players because we all want to start, we all want to play all the minutes and to accept that rule and to understand what it was about. And Thorold will tell you, he'd say, you know, it Give me an opportunity to really watch the flow of the game and watch the players that I was going to be guarding and gave me a little bit of an upper hand. When I went out there. I knew exactly what I needed to do, and he embraced that. And so that was his attitude about it. He didn't get frustrated. A lot of guys couldn't do it. There were guys that, for instance, we had a guy on our team, Ricky Green, who was a great point guard prior to John Stockton, in fact, played with John, and he was great as a starter. And then when he became a backup guy, he struggled attitude wise with taking that, you know, less than role. And I think it hurt our team in the long term because had he been able to kind of stick around, I think we would have been a better team. We struggled finding a backup point guard after. After he left. So there's, you know, it's just different aspects to how people approach their game. But again, if the team wins, you win. And it was always fascinating to me to watch how much greater our value was as a team, especially in the eyes of the press and other people and other players. When we were winning versus when we were losing. Sure, like the same guys were doing the same jobs. But all of a sudden this week like, oh, you guys are awesome. The next week is like, yeah.

And you can see that in the NFL today. I mean, you know, our Indianapolis Colts, they win three, they drop one, and Cleveland played out of their minds. I'm a football. I coach football for 25 years. And I'm like, look at Cleveland made like five plays that you just can't make. But now everybody's ready to get rid of Philip Rivers. And I mean, it's, you know, people ready to jump off a cliff. And I'm going, yeah.

And go where? It was interesting last night, watching the NBA Finals with the Heat and Lakers, and one of the commentators, I think it was, it's Stan Van Gundy or. Yeah, that's Stan or Jeff Van Gundy. Who's the commentator? Anyway? One of the Van Gundys, you know, was talking about how Eric Spoelstra, the coach of the Heat, had been there for so long with the organization, 20 plus years. And Jerry Sloan spent 23 years as a head coach of the Jazz, and the ownership stood behind him because it's the easiest guy to change is the coach. Right. It's easy to fire the coach and go find somebody else. A little harder to get rid of players, but it can happen. But sometimes fans don't always understand that, and that consistency of culture is so important in basketball and getting guys to play together takes time. And if you have a belief in the head coach that he can teach that culture, you know, the great teams and organizations stick with those guys for a long period because they know it's the players that have to come around, not necessarily the coach has to redefine what they're doing. Right.

And that's obviously evident. I mean, even in Utah. I mean, Utah has been able to keep, you know, the same coach, the same system for so long and then, you know, you, you can go through.

Yeah. And one of the more respected franchises because of that.

No question. Right. No question about it. And, and what do you think of their new. Was he a rookie this year or a second year player? He's just lights out. Unbelievable. Their guard, Donovan Mitchell from Louisville.

Yeah, yeah, he is. He has just come into his own. He's an exciting player. He's a fun player to watch. He makes things happen that sometimes you have to blink your eyes and say, did I really see that? And the fans here in Utah just love him.

Yeah. Talk to me about. And then we'll, we'll wrap it up with our knowledge through the decade segment and let you get onto your way. But you saw a lot of characters come through the NBA in 14 years and I'm sure you know the MJ's and all that, but I'd love to know, as in an opponent, who did you say, man, that guy has the best freaking attitude when he hits the court. Maybe besides the obvious, it may surprise us or the obvious is fine. But I'd also like to know who had the worst attitude that you played against.

That one's easy. Well, the best attitude I thought was especially early in my career was Dr. J. Yeah. He was kind of the statesman of the NBA at a time when the NBA didn't have the best brand, so to speak.

Interesting.

And he, you know, he could dunk on you during the game, which he did on me frequently. And that's the challenge of being a shot blocker is a lot of times you miss. Yes. And then afterwards say, hey, big fella, come on, let's go have a beer. You know, and I always thought that was so cool that he would do that for young players. He was always concerned about, even to this day, you know, I'll see him at a, an event here or there. And he's, he'll always say, how's it going, big fella? So I always appreciated that attitude because he, you know, to him it was bigger than just the game of basketball. And then the worst attitude. Probably I guess you'd have to go with Dennis Rodman on that one. So. Hated playing against dirty player. Would rather punch him than look at him. Right. You know, I just. I never got along with that guy. Didn't appreciate his style of basketball. And I would tell him so today.

Yeah, he was a worm, wasn't he?

Feelings about it. Right, right, right.

Well, that's great. I mean, that's. That's so fun, Mark. And thanks for in, you know, entertaining us with that. We close every podcast with this thing called Knowledge through the Decades. Do you have children, Mark or I do, yes. Cool. So what we do is we ask what the attitude lesson was as you've progressed through your life. Now, sometimes people don't remember being born, so I want you to think about maybe your children when they were born. But. And so. And I. Have you hit 60 yet?

Yeah, I'm 63.

All right, good. So we can go up to 60 then. So what I want to ask you, it's kind of rapid fire. Don't put too much pressure on yourself. But we like our gappers to go through the life of these unbelievable, extraordinary people that we get to interview. And so when you think about birth and childbirth, what do you think the attitude lesson of birth is?

The attitude less than birth or childbirth?

Yes.

Oh, boy, here I am. Let's see what happens next. I think is probably the best one for childbirth and, you know, going next, I think it was just kind of figuring out what life was about and your place in it, which I think is something we all do throughout the course of our lives.

So let. So let me jump in then. So I want you to think back and tell us about when you were 10 years old. Third and fourth grade, number one, we're dying to know how tall you were at 10. But what was the attitude lesson that you learned in third or fourth grade, if you can remember?

I think third or fourth grade, I was still having fun and I was tall, but I don't think it was a big deal in my life. And probably till I was about 12 years old when I really felt like I stood out, was different than everybody else. First time I remember noticing that I was different than everyone else, and that was stressful. And I think throughout my teenage years was stressful. Being taller and made fun of and just felt a little outside, you know, the in group. So I think that was the first time it really started affecting my attitude. And I remember my father saying, My father's six, nine. And I remember him saying that once I got taller than him, he said he really noticed a change in my attitude that I was a little shorter with people, became a little more withdrawn and struggled with that because I didn't seem to have a place for my height, you know, as a mechanic. I was, you know, okay, I was doing it because it was a job, but it really wasn't like a fit for me. And basketball gave me that. That experience of really feeling like I was where I was supposed to be at the time. And so I think my attitude improved somewhat with. With having basketball in my life.

Yeah. Maybe a little less personal pressure and a little more acceptance of yourself, self acceptance and that type of thing.

Yeah. And I think the bigger part, this is probably not the best thing to say, but I felt like other people accepted me more because I was playing basketball, which is really absolute silliness. But I felt more comfortable because people then leave me alone. I would say, do you play basketball? I go, yeah, I do play through junior college or whatever it is.

Right. So let's go to 30 years old. Right. We've got through 10, maybe a little bit of bullying and not feeling accepted. 20, you become a little more accepted. You become. Started getting to fit. So I'm guessing 30 is when you're right in the middle of your NBA career. What, what's the attitude lesson? If you remember being 30, what was the attitude lesson from that year for you?

I think the attitude lesson then was about learning how to be consistent with my approach to the game. You know, I have my relationships with my teammates that were valuable to me. We were a pretty tight knit unit. I didn't. I had friends outside of basketball, a small group of them or so, but, you know, I wasn't too sure what to do with like the public and the fan thing and all that. That was kind of challenging for me of how to put that in context, which I figured out later in life. Yeah.

And so that takes us to 40. I don't know if you remember your 40th birthday or if you. I'm sure you remember being 40 because it was just, what, 22 short years ago. What was. And you're probably on the other side of your NBA career, I would guess, at 40. What's the attitude lesson at 40?

Oh, I think the attitude lesson at 40 was being mindful of what great friends I have. I know I went to Napa Valley with a group of friends for my 40th birthday. That was a lot of fun and by that time, I'd been in the restaurant business for a couple of years and was, you know, back into the customer service space and that whole thing. And so my attitude was, I think I opened up a little bit more at that point in time. I think in terms of my acceptance of the people around me and understanding my place in society, for lack of a better term, cool. And so that's what I. That's what I gained at that age.

So what restaurant did you own?

We have two restaurants here in Salt Lake. One's called Tuscany, and the other is called Francs, like Frank with a C in it.

Okay.

And we've been open for. Tuscany's been open for 25 years, and Franx has been open for about 14 years.

And what Italian, I'm guessing, is Tuscany, right? Italian.

Tuscany is northern Italian, very rustic style menu, big Italian villa, and we have a big outdoor patio. We do a lot of corporate events and weddings as well. And then Franx is a little smaller bistro style, more focus on presentation and style. And that's just a smaller restaurant that we also have in our property. Cool, Cool.

So now we're up to 50 years. I'm sure you remember your 50th birthday. You're now you're removed. I'm guessing. I don't know when you wrote your book, but you probably started speaking and the books probably in your mind around 50. What's your attitude left lesson when you hit that big five zero.

Let's see, that would have been. Yeah, when I was 50, I was. I was starting my. Just thinking about starting my basketball career. Excuse me. Let's start that again. When I was 50, I just started thinking about my public speaking career. It was still just kind of an idea in my mind, but I was really struggling with what to do next. I was doing some broadcasting for the jazz at the time, and that was interesting, but wasn't really scratching the itch. And so that's when I was really considering what to do next and reinventing myself post 50.

Yeah, good reinvention. Huge attitude for especially for all of us gappers who are 50, and then now, boom, you're 62, 63. I'm sure what I'd love to just finish with is, what is your attitude lesson from 60? What is your hope? What is your message to our Get Attitude podcast listeners, our gappers that are standing there at the beginning of a bridge? And it sounds like you've had many. You've stood at the beginning of the bridge and you've bridged the gap from who you are to who you want to become, and from where you are to where you wanted to go at many different parts of your life. What would you like to share with our listeners about your age 60 attitude lesson and then your hope for them?

I think my hope for everyone is. And I'm sorry about that noise. My dog's going in and out of the dog.

You got a big dog?

He only does when I'm on a zoom call.

Right.

The. I think the attitude, the message I give for the people knowing, you know, now that I'm over 60, is that we're all more connected than we realize. And you really have a choice every day about what vibration you bring to your workplace, about what vibration you bring to your relationships. And I think it starts with being kind to everyone. And I think that we need that message more now than ever. We live in a very divisive time, and what we really need is more love and kindness in the world. And it starts with you. And so I think that's. That'd be my message.

That's awesome. Mark Eaton, thank you. You've given us some great, great attitude lessons. You've given us some insights. Thanks for being vulnerable enough to share your memories with us. And I know that myself and all the gappers really appreciate your time and your insight. And if you are a corporate planner or a CEO, and we know we have many of you listening marks one sheet and his testimonials are off the chart. Good. I think you got a good taste for his book. So please look him up@7ft4.com on his website to hire him to come and speak. And Mark, just so grateful. Thank you so much for being on the Get Attitude podcast.

My pleasure, buddy. Glad to do it.

All right, very good.

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