Ep24 - Dawn Knight

This episode is brought to you by KPMG Risk Services. KPMG believes that when you've earned the trust of all your stakeholders, that's when your business has a solid platform to grow. That's the trusted imperative. KPMG Risk Services develop and put in place dynamic risk strategies designed to help your business earn that all important trust. Go to reit, KPMG US Trust to learn more.

Something needs to happen. May our complacency disturb us profoundly today. Yes, you know we need to do something about these issues.

Yet attitude means how can I proactively change the way I think? How can I proactively increase my life? How can I proactively create better relationships and better work situations for me to enjoy it? Hello and welcome to the Gap. The Gap. The Get Attitude Podcast the Gap Bridging the gap from who you are to who you want to become, and from where you are to where you want to be. My name is Glenn Bill, founder of the University of Attitude, keynote speaker and Author of the ABCs of Attitude, and I've been fortunate to help tens of thousands of people Get Attitude. Attitude is the secret formula to success in your business and in your life. And this podcast will help you get yours. So let's get some. We want to welcome everybody here today. We hope that you continue to subscribe, rate, review and most importantly, share our podcast, the Get Attitude Podcast. On your favorite podcast platform today we have the one and only Dawn Knight, author of Race and Football in America. She is going to be talking about having a mentor and copy them. We are in Attitude Booster month number five. Have a mentor copy him or her. And I was introduced to dawn from a good friend of mine. And as many of you know, I spent many years in football and I thought it was so cool that a female mentor would go and be mentored by a pro football mentor who's a male. So we have the book right in front of us called Race and Football in America. And Don, welcome to the Gap.

Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

Very good. So let's just first of all find out a little bit about you. Tell us a little bit about your history, where you came from, and who gave you your attitude.

Oh, gosh, probably my grandma gave me my attitude.

What was her name?

Her name is Mary Rose.

Mary. I like it. Mary's always have a little bit of attitude.

Exactly, exactly. She's the one who taught me I have a voice and I should use it.

Oh, cool.

Yeah. So she's one of my mentors. Definitely.

I Like it. And so tell us where you grew up and a little bit about how the history. How before you wrote this book, pushed you to write this book.

Okay. Well, I grew up in Southern Indiana in Huntingburg. Moved to Indianapolis when I was around 10, so it was kind of a different area, obviously, after growing up in a small town, but went to Indiana University.

Okay.

Where my roommate convinced me I had to take this social work class. I didn't need a social work class, but I did need an elective.

I see.

She kept pushing me, so I finally took it, even though it was an 8am class. And I tried to avoid those.

Of course. Of course.

Yes. And that's how I ended up in a classroom with the professor. Check George Taliferaro, who ended up becoming a very important mentor of mine.

And that's great. And George Talifero was not only a mentor to you, George Talafaro did some pretty incredible things. Why don't you share with us his story?

Oh, gosh, it's a long story, but that's okay.

We got all the time you want.

Yeah, he's quite a trailblazer. So I guess he's best known for being the first black man drafted by an NFL team.

And what team would that be?

That was the Chicago Bears.

Oh, he got drafted by Chicago.

He did, but he didn't play for Chicago. That was when we had the All America Football Conference warring with the NFL for players. And he had already made a verbal commitment to the Los Angeles Dons in the aafc. They were also offering more money. So he went with the Dons, even though it was a childhood dream to play for the Bears.

Right. So. But he took the money.

Yeah.

His attitude was, let's take the money, let's get a hold of the money a little bit.

Yeah. Well, he wanted to help Mom. Dad had passed away suddenly, and so he wanted to do something that would help his family. So I think the money was an important part of that.

Sure. And I think that's the important part for a lot of people, that we actually maybe put what we want aside because of attitude booster number 10. Be a part of something bigger than yourself.

Exactly right.

And so I have a feeling that George's story, which you're going to share with us, is a story of sacrifice. It's a story of doing something bigger than him. And we're interested to know, you know, what that story is and how it originated. So he. Where did he play his college football?

He played for Indiana University.

And was there a story there about when he Played in high school and college. And what did. What did he go through? And what. What was that story?

Yeah, it's a pretty big story. So he played for all black Gary Roosevelt High School.

Okay.

Early in high school, he wasn't allowed to play against white teams at all. By his junior and senior year, they were able to play against white schools, but they weren't actually eligible for post season. So his senior year, the East Chicago Roosevelt coach and East Chicago Chicago Roosevelt was quite a powerhouse. Had a bye week and really wanted to practice, and they wanted to practice against a good team. And he knew Gary Roosevelt would be available because they weren't eligible. So he arranged a scrimmage between the two teams, and George Talifero ended up scoring the winning touchdown to beat East Chicago Roosevelt, who incidentally had been several years in a row undefeated, including two years beyond that. And they were considered undefeated still because it was just a scrimmage.

Sure.

But the reality was that George Talifero helped defeat them.

Yes.

The coach of East Chicago Roosevelt contacted his friend, coach Bo McMillan at IU time to recruit and said, you have to get this kid at iu. And a lot of his friends in Gary weren't on board with that because IU was segregated. Coach Bo McMillan was from Texas, and they were a little worried about his Southern roots and what that might mean. George wasn't worried about that. And they actually dispatched another black athlete, JC Rooster Coffey, to Gary to talk to George, and he ended up making the decision to go to Indiana University. A lady on the draft board in his neighborhood told him if he went to an in state school, it was less likely he would get drafted. So that was another part of the decision. I see, but that's what took him to Indiana University. But he was recruited by IU and couldn't live on campus because it was segregated. And that was something that was a little eye opening when he arrived. He didn't realize that was the case.

No segregation in Gary back then?

Well, the schools were segregated, but he lived in a very integrated neighborhood.

Okay, I see. So he went to iu segregated school. Were there any trials, tribulations, or attitude lessons from iu? Was it an easy four years for him or was it not?

Yeah. No, it was not an easy transition at all. In fact, upon arriving, when he discovered first of all that he couldn't live on campus, part of what he wanted was to live in a dorm and get to know people from all over. In fact, he called his dad and said, I want to come home. And his dad said, why do you think you're there? And hung up the phone on him. So he slept on it overnight and woke up with a new attitude. His parents had told him every day of his life, I love you. You must be educated. And that was what his dad was getting at with that conversation. So George realized, you know, this is what he said was a small price to pay for a quality education.

Boy, I think that's interesting, you know, to think about walking into a situation that you didn't expect and then walking into a situation where what you didn't expect actually became, you're not wanted here. Right. Or you're excluded here. The mindset of the exclusion. Right. Of that segregation, that had to be tough on his psyche. And I'm guessing that he probably used to talk about what were his thoughts. And I know there's people listening to us right now that maybe had grandparents that were victims of segregation. What was his take on how it made him feel and how he got through that?

He had a very important mentor and his coach, Bo McMillan. And McMillan was very ahead of his time. So even though the campus was segregated, IU president Herman B. Wells and coach Bo McMillan were actively involved in trying to desegregate. So even though he couldn't live on campus, he did have allies, and his teammates accepted him. And I will say that Notre Dame and Purdue both had zero black players at the time, and IU was starting them. So, you know, there are. It wasn't ideal, clearly.

So there was segregation at those schools as well, then?

I don't know if there was segregation. I know they didn't have black players.

Yeah, they just didn't. Wow.

And George said, you know, it was hard. The hardest part for him was when people treated him like he was a nobody. It was less racial slurs or outright hatred. It was more just treating him like he didn't exist at all.

Yeah, he was shunned.

Correct.

Yeah.

But he also had a lot of plague players who were very dear friends and coaches who were there for him, and that's who he credits with getting him through that.

So tell me, how did you come to meet George, and how did that relationship blossom? And obviously, I'm guessing you probably liked him from the second you met him. So I'd love to know, like, your first impression and, you know, the dedication to this man, you know, to write a book about what he did. Talk to me a little bit about how that happened for you.

Okay. Well, it's my roommate's fault. She told me I had to Take this class. It was a social work class, and I wasn't majoring in social work. I'm in education. But she said, it's worth it. You have to take it. It was an 8am class, so I wasn't 100% on board with that, but she convinced me it would be worth it. I was on crutches at the time, and I hobbled into his 8am class, pretty grumpy, to be honest. And he took one look at me and said, well, there's one. Hung low and started laughing hysterically. And so he got me to open up and smile from the get go. And that was my nickname for a while.

Hung low.

One hung low. Because I was on crutches. When I got married and my name became Don Knight, he changed my nickname to AM PM So he's always had nicknames and he's always Don Knight. Yes. The humor. Funny.

Funny.

So what really stood out in his class and why she really wanted me to take it was his attitude about life. And I know that's important to the Get Attitude podcast.

Yeah.

So he talked about All Sickness, Ain't Death. He would actually write that on the board whenever we had an exam. And I thought he was being funny at first, like, oh, okay, so if we don't pass, we'll live. Right? And it turns out that it was really an important mantra to him in his life. He had been through a lot and it made him stronger. And so that was one of the things that he talked about. But in his Introduction to Social Work class, he really made clear that every person has worth and dignity and deserves respect. And he talked about how every person has a story and that we should listen to those stories. And then lastly, one day he just wrote on the board, may our complacency disturb us profoundly today. And it took a while for me to process, but because it was 8am yes. And when it did, I thought, oh, you know what? He's right. I should be actively doing things. I should be actively trying to change things. And he just really made an impression on me. And even though I was not going into social work, I was going into education. And those lessons were so important. Every student has a story. May my complacency be, you know, disturb me profoundly. I need to change the world for them and help them be world changers. So I stayed in touch and actually convinced our other roommate to take his class as well. So for about a year and a half, he had one of us in his class, and we just. We stayed in touch occasionally. Having dinner with him. He had never mentioned football in his social work class.

You had no idea who this guy was?

I had no idea.

Right.

I had no idea that he had played football, that the campus had been segregated. I had no idea what had happened in the span of these decades that now he was at the front of this class and teaching it. So as these stories started coming out from friends of his, I realized, gosh, I can't believe I've never heard of this guy. He's the Jackie Robinson of the NFL. He was the first black quarterback, the first black man drafted by an NFL team. And more importantly, he's this amazing person, and I had never heard of him. So I called him one day on a whim and just said, hey, has anybody ever thought about writing a book about you? And he just laughed and said, why would anybody want to write a book about me?

He sounds humble.

Yeah, he's. Well, sometimes. Yes, yes.

Once you get to know him, not so much.

Well, there are times. Yeah. So anyway, I said, well, I'd love to try. And he said, well, let's do it. So that was how we.

That's too cool.

Yeah.

So may our complacency disturb us profoundly. That's something.

Yeah.

So you're sitting there with this legend that you didn't know.

Right.

And you begin to write the book. What was your attitude when you thought about this? I mean, obviously you had heard some stories. Did the book end up the way you thought it would?

No, actually, there's an earlier edition of this book.

Okay.

Well, I guess it did at the time. It did what I wanted at the time, which was to write his story, because I felt like people should know it. And that original version came out in 2008. It was just called Tala Farrow Breaking Barriers. But he immediately started telling me stories as we were headed to book signings about how he caddied for Joe Louis, threatened Muhammad Ali with a golf club, met Malcolm X at the Red Rooster in Harlem. And I panicked. This isn't in the book. How. What? You know. And I said, how did. You didn't tell me that. And he goes, oh, I've lived decades. I couldn't tell you every story. And I was like, but those stories, those are pretty major, right? So I had been saving stories for about a decade, and then, you know, when Colin Kaepernick kneeled and there was such polarity in the country, and I thought, you know, there was this absolutism of, you either support the troops or you support Colin Kaepernick. And I thought, well, I mean, can I support both? Both, you know, and I just. So it occurred to me that seeing this lens, his story and others like George, who used athleticism and the platform that they had to create social change.

Yes.

Was an important historical lens to really understanding what was currently going on. And so I decided to rewrite the book with his stories, but kind of from a new angle, which is what can it help us do to understand the current issues going on?

Sure. So, I mean, I can't let that go. You gotta tell me the Louis X or Ali story, whichever one you think is the most profound or the one that most relates to attitude.

Well, I think his attitude, he often meets things that are difficult with a mixture of humor and determination. He was at an all black golf course in Washington D.C. on his way home from taking master's classes at Howard University. And I don't know what hole he was on when a limo pulled around and Muhammad Ali stuck his head out of the top of the limo and said, I'll take you. And George said, if you come over here, I'll take, I'll take you out with his driver, you know. And so he threatened Muhammad Ali with a golf club and they ended up hanging out in the clubhouse for a while.

Ali liked that.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. What's the Joe Louis story?

Well, Joe Louis used to play golf at an all black golf course in Gary, Indiana and he chose George Talafarrow to be his caddy. He called him the little big headed boy. And George said he liked him because he, he was clean. And even though he didn't have a lot of money, he dressed neatly. But he said what was most important about it was that Joe Louis made him feel like he was somebody because he chose him.

That's cool. Yeah, that's number one. Be nice. Right. Joe was nice to him. And then what about Malcolm X, what was that story?

Well, when he was playing for the New York Yanks, he was at the Red Rooster in Harlem and Malcolm X happened to be there and there were several athletes, they were all talking actually about using their platform as athletes to create social change. That's actually what they were talking to Malcolm X about.

Right. And so when we think about social change back then compared to social change today, no Twitter, no social media, no broadcasting, only narrow casting. What are the lessons or what are the observations that you have on. Number one, why is it the same? And number two, how is it different?

Yeah, well, I think naturally there was a platform. I mean, it wasn't televised. They didn't have lucrative endorsement deals. In fact, most of them had jobs in the off season. But people knew them, and they were respected for their work. And so it did give them a platform that people tended to listen to. And it put them in situations where they were around people who were changers, you know, world changers, that they could get their ear. And I think that was part of it. I mean, I guess that's early. Twitter is being able to reach out to somebody who can do something. So that was part of it. He Congressman John Lewis had actually talked to him about doing some civil rights stuff when he was in Washington, D.C. and said, Hey, I know you're not playing for the Colts anymore, but, you know, Johnny Unitas, could you maybe get him to just sit with us on the stage? And Johnny Unitis wouldn't do it. He was worried about getting involved in something.

That's something.

Yeah. So George said, we weren't friends.

I bet they weren't.

Yeah.

Well, boy, you do that today, and then you'd be in some big trouble.

Right.

So, Johnny, you said, yeah, I can't do that.

Right.

Wow.

Yeah.

And was it because he was inherently racist, or was it because of the world was inherent or the world was racist, do you think? Or a little bit of both, maybe.

I don't know. It also could just be that he was worried about his brand. He didn't want to be associated with something very controversial, and it was very controversial at the time, so.

And then did you do any research about Colin Kaepernick, or what were your thoughts when you saw the Kaepernick situation with race and football in America, coming from the perspective that you had, what's your opinion on that?

Yeah, well, to be frank, you know, it's uncomfortable. I love the military. I'm very patriotic. My son was in the Navy. My grandpa was in the Navy. My other grandpa was a Marine. We have a board hanging up in our pub in Westfield where people can hang pictures of their military members, you know, so people can pay homage to them. So I'm a very patriotic person, and it made me uncomfortable. But I also think that we have a responsibility in this country, and the reason it's so great is that we can say when there's something wrong and something that needs to be changed. And so I agreed with him that there's an issue that something needs to happen. May our complacency disturb us profoundly today.

Yes.

You know, we need to do something about these issues. I felt like the real. I felt like the real issue was that there was that, you know, polarization of. You were either pro Kaepernick or you were pro military. And I didn't think that was the case at all. And I felt like. I didn't think Kaepernick was that way either. I didn't think he was anti military. I felt like he was pro. Let's make some changes. There are bad things going on. And so, you know, I think when you take the time to talk and discuss, and we're missing that honest discourse, difficult conversations to have when you're talking about race, but that's what's missing. And so, yeah, I looked into it, and actually, I was. I discovered that he had reached out to Nate Boyer, who had been a Green Beret and was a kicker in the NFL, because Nate Boyer had talked to him or texted him. I can't remember if it was text. Email had reached out to him to say, you know, this is making people upset. You're, you know, disrespecting the military. And Kaepernick said, that's not what my intention is. Let's meet. Let's talk.

I'm guessing Nate Boyer's an African American football player.

No, he was a Green Beret, I believe. And so he was that military voice saying, I can't believe you're doing this with the flag I got you. And so I think when they had a conversation, initially, Kaepernick had sat down during the anthem. And so when Nate Boyer said, this is upsetting people, People died for this country. What you're doing is disrespecting them. Colin Kaepernick said, I don't want to disrespect them, but I also have a very hard time standing up when I know there are things that need to change that this country needs to do. And so they discuss different ways of making that happen. And I believe it was actually Nate Boyer who said, well, what about kneeling? Kneeling's a respectful gesture. We do it when we pray. We do it when somebody's injured on the field.

Right, right. Interesting. That came from Nate Boyer.

I believe that came from Nate Boyer. Yeah. So anyway, what the conversation ended up doing was bringing two people who had initially had these very differing opinions much closer together. Their goals were actually very similar. And what they did through discourse was find a way. We thought, or they thought, I guess that would still be respectful to the military while also showing that something's not quite right.

Do you think George would have liked Colin Kaepernick?

I talked to George about him. Shortly before George died last October, I said, you know, what do you think about Kaepernick? And he said, I really don't want to talk about it because it reminds me too much of a lot of what I went through.

Wow.

But he said, I will leave you with one thing, and that is that I'm hopeful.

Interesting.

Yeah.

So your book is called Race and Football in the Life and Legacy of George Taliaferro. It's a captivating title. Why did you name it Race and Football in America instead of the George Taliaferro Story?

Yeah, because, you know, like I said, the first time I wrote the book was really just about George. This time, I really pulled in a lot of other stories of athletes who had been through things that were very similar and who had used their platform as athletes to work for social justice as well. And I thought that was very important. And really, like I said, what I wanted it to do was to hopefully open up discourse about what's going on in America today, because we're not talking, and I want people to talk, have the difficult conversations.

And so what was one of the most profound stories that you added?

Oh, gosh, there were. There were several. One. One was. I'm trying to think of the name of the person he went to. He. He had originally applied to Miami, and they told him he couldn't come there because he was black. And so he ended up at Penn State. And when Penn State was playing Miami, Miami said, well, you know, the black players can't come. You have black players on your team. And that's really when the we are Penn State thing began, because the captains of the team got together and said, it's all of us or none of us, because we are Penn State.

And was that in the 60s?

That was in. I believe that was in the 50s.

Oh, wow. Okay.

Okay.

Are any of these stories that you added current? Are there stories? I mean, obviously, we've come a long way. Right. Are there any current examples in your book?

Yeah, I kind of talk through, especially with the NFL, which is the big focus, just, you know, black quarterbacks and how that's. We're getting more and more prolific there. But for a long time, it was not a position. In fact, I had interviewed Tony Dungy for the first time. I wrote the book, and we talked about how he had changed his position in college because he was a quarterback. He was a quarterback. Right. And so we talked a lot about the position changes or stacking black players behind white starters and things like that. So there's a Whole section of the book just about black coaches and black quarterbacks and those leadership positions that are, you know, still getting there.

Yeah. But certainly not proportionate to player ratios or anything like that.

Right, exactly.

So when you take on this issue of race, you know, boy, attitude is the way you dedicate yourself to the way you think and how white people think about black people and how black people think about white people and how black people think about black people and how white people think about white people is very interesting. And I commend you on saying, boy, we really need discourse and we need to talk. If you could have a podcast, right. And you could just sit here and talk through race, what would you say are the one or two most important topics that have to deal with race as you see it?

Well, I think there's still a lot of hurt going on, and I think there are still a lot of racial issues going on. And it's 2019, and people aren't talking about it. I think it's an uncomfortable topic to talk about. And I think it's so important for moving on, for changing things, for healing, that we find out what those issues are. Clearly. In fact, I've had people ask why I wrote this book. Because I'm a female. I didn't play football. I love football. I didn't play football. I was not alive in the 1940s and 50s, and I'm white. And so who am I to write a book about race and football in America? And I guess the answer. Short answer to that is because I decided to.

Right.

And, you know, because it's something that's important and because I don't want to be complacent when I see that there's an issue.

Yeah. My guess is you wrote the book because you had a mentor.

Yeah. Yeah. Challenged you who told me that I shouldn't be complacent when I see something. Exactly.

And that's, you know, for the. For the people that tune in to get a attitude boost. So many people ignore the lessons and ignore the callings of their mentors. And I think it's. You should be commended that you actually took the time to select a mentor and to do something. And I just love, you know, that saying about complacency and not being complacent. Right. So my hope is that if you're listening to this podcast, that you take those words. I'm trying to find. I know.

May our complacency disturb us profoundly today.

So it's like this. Let's not be complacent. About our life. Let's not be complacent about the things that need to be talked about. And maybe it's okay to be disturbed and disturbed to action. Right?

Yeah, exactly. And I also think we're all a lot closer on a lot of issues than we think we are. We just haven't figured that out because we're not talking about it.

Right. So, like, what are the issues that you think exist?

Oh, I mean, politically right now, you know, I think there's so much with social media and aggregation, we're just seeing people who agree with, you know, with what we think. And there's a lot of the mutual exclusivity that you can't believe one thing and believe another thing, too. It's. You're either a proponent of this or of that. You can't like both, which we talked about, you know, with the Kaepernick thing.

Sure.

And I think the reality of the situation is that, you know, there are a lot of places where we all can come together and agree. I think there are a lot of great areas that we're not looking at instead of sharing memes and, you know, I don't know, on Facebook, maybe we could have discourse and talk about issues instead and find what those common areas are.

What do you think pisses black people off the most about white people?

I don't. I can't say I would know that. But, you know, I think the fact maybe that we're not talking about it, or the fact that we'll vilify a Colin Kaepernick without looking at why he's not asking one simple question. Why are you doing that and trying to get at the heart of that issue? I think that's what's missing. And I don't know. I can't say I know.

That's a good question.

Yeah, it's a great question, but it's an uncomfortable question. It is. It is.

But if you're listening to this podcast or watching it, put it in the comments. If you're an African American, I'd love to know, and I think I know a couple. What it would be. I know if I were black, what I would be pissed off about. But the one question, if you can put it in our comments, if you're watching this on Facebook, if you're watching this on YouTube and you're an African American or a white American, why do you think. Or what really pisses you off? And whites are racist, too. And I'd love to know what white people hate about black people. I mean, it's uncomfortable.

Yeah. I mean, I think I'd rather not talk about what we hate about each other, what we love about. No, I mean, what. No, I don't think that either. Because I think that's sugar coating, too.

Yeah, I do, too.

No, I'd say, what is it that we still need to work on as a country? What are those issues?

I'm a little more harsh.

Yeah.

Yeah. But so I just, you know, you wonder. I think sometimes we say this all the time on our podcast. The quality of your life is determined by the quality of questions you ask yourself about life. And I think the quality of racism in America or race in America, the quality of that. The quality of that relationship could be enhanced and improved with better questions. And maybe, as you said, those questions need to be tougher and need to be more blunt. Maybe, you know, I don't know. You're the one that wrote the book.

Yeah. We need to have the conversations, right? Yeah. And they'll be uncomfortable.

Sure they will. What. When you think of George Taliaferra, what do you think his attitude was? What was the way he dedicated himself to the way he thought? He thought.

Well, he wasn't complacent, and that was a big part of it. He worked his entire life to make people's lives better, to hear their stories. And it wasn't always about social justice. It was about making people's lives in general. And that's what he always said, I want to work with people, period.

Yeah. Cool.

Originally, he was going into education. He applied at the Baltimore school system, but there were only two black schools. They wouldn't hire him for the white school schools.

Wow.

He wanted to be a football coach, and he had played seven seasons in the NFL and had been in the Pro bowl numerous times. Imagine this man as a football coach, and they missed out because said no. Right.

Wow.

Because he was black. So he went into social work because he said, I just want to work with people.

So, yeah, there he is in the social work class, but doing so much more. My guess is predominantly, I don't know, was there. What Was your classroom? 50, 50 white to black, or was he mostly teaching white students?

It was mainly white students.

Yeah. How cool. What a profound impact he had on them, too.

Yeah, absolutely.

What? I can just imagine him, you know, being in the classroom from a social work perspective. What did he teach you about race?

It wasn't. He didn't talk about race. We talked about, you know, socioeconomics, and we talked about hearing people's stories. We talked about prisons, but mainly what we taught it was an introduction to social work. So, you know, Social Work 101, whatever.

There you go. You're an English major. I know, right. I was just wondering.

But no, I think the important part there was the idea that he talked often about every person has worth and dignity and deserves respect. And as a social worker, the job was to find out the story, find out how to help someone. And I think that's what he instilled in our class.

That's good. Well, I tell you what, dawn, for you to take this subject on is not easy, and I commend you for your courage to do that. And the book really, really looks cool. And certainly the content is fantastic. What is like the number one greatest thing that has happened in your life since you wrote this book? Whether it be, you know, I don't know, an experience, whether it be a new way of thinking, a new attitude. What, what. What's the golden nugget if somebody picks this book up that you got and what they may get from it?

Yeah, well, I think there's a lot of wisdom woven in there from George and from. From other people who went through things that I didn't experience. You know, one of the reasons we read is for empathy. And, you know, I interviewed him for dozens and dozens of hours, but I also read everything. It's. I had to make up for the fact that I wasn't there and that I was white and that I didn't play football. That's so cool.

That's so cool to just like do something.

I did a lot of interviewing. In fact, I tracked down a water boy from when he was a player in the old Baltimore Colts.

Oh, my gosh.

And, you know, so I had to do everything.

What, did the waterboy teach you anything?

The waterboy was great. So George played with Buddy Young at the time, who was 54 and was once the fastest man in the world. I think it was the 45 yard dash that he had made a world record in. This water boy snuck in all the time because they were working on the field and there were a lot of tunnels and things underneath. And so he and his friends knew how to sneak into games. But one day, the little tunnel that had been a construction tunnel, apparently they had figured out and they had walled it off. And so they raced around until they finally were at the back players entrance and Buddy Young stepped out of a car and I think he still had a robe on. And they begged him to, you know, let them into the stadium and so finally he was like, all right, kids, come on in and we'll make you a water boy. And so, yeah, so they ended up helping these white kids be water boys for the Baltimore Colts. And he just talked about how great Buddy Young was and how eye opening it was for him to have a guy who didn't know him, you know, just help these white kids.

Right.

And it was an eye opening moment. And I thought it was a really important interview because I could tell that, especially for that time period, what a moment that was for him.

Sure.

The kindness from this person who didn't have to be kind to him.

Yeah. Attitude booster number one. Be nice. Right, Right. I mean, it's amazing. You never know how kindness can profoundly affect another person.

Exactly.

Dawn, we are going to close our podcast like we always do, with some of our gapper's favorite things called Knowledge through the Decades. Now, we know that this was about George and race in America, but you know what? You as a person were the one that undertook this. The attitude and the courage that it took for you to put this in writing. The heart, the kindness, the love, the insight is fantastic. So I think we need to get to know you a little bit better.

Okay.

Okay. So knowledge through the Decades. What we're going to ask you is just what the life lessons are as you were from birth to where you are now. Okay, so what I want to ask you is this. What is the most important attitude lesson that you learned as a newborn or having newborn?

Sometimes you just need some food.

Sometimes you just need to eat.

I get hangry. My kids used to tell my husband, feed mom now. So that's probably one of them. Sometimes you just need to eat.

Right. A full belly, a full life.

Exactly.

I love it. Now, what part of Indiana did you say you were from originally?

I'm from southern Indiana.

But what's it called?

Huntingburg.

Huntingburg. How many people are in Huntingburg?

I think There are about 5,000.

Oh, my God. And where is that near?

It's near Jasper.

Okay, sure.

Yeah.

Big German community.

Yeah. Or Jasper, as they say. Very Dutchy.

So I think you said you moved when you were 10.

I did, yeah.

So when you think about that move when you were 10, what was the attitude lesson that you learned that is profound, that our gappers can hold on to that? You go, you know what? When I was 10 years old, this is what I learned.

Yeah. It was a rough transition for me. I was very unaware. The 1981 fashion trends with Izod shirts and penny loafers and I Had my I Heart country music jeans and it didn't go over very well. I was mercilessly bullied for a while. I know, I know. But I, you know, obviously that was hard at the time. I'm glad it happened because I think I'm a more empathetic person and I'm a stronger person because of it, and more likely to stand up for the underdog.

So you were like. Yeah. And interesting that you would dedicate your life to this book. Right. It's always amazing how those 10 year old stories come back to real life.

Right.

Which is just crazy. So you were just a country girl. You showed up at this new school and you're like, I don't look like these other kids.

Exactly.

Dress like. I mean, that's got to be tough.

Yeah.

And so how did you overcome that? What was your mindset or your attitude? Did you just say, all right, I'm gonna start buying new stuff, or did you say, I'm gonna grow through it? What was your thoughts? I mean, that had to be tough. Being bullied's horrible.

It is.

And we hear it a lot on the show. And I always like to know how.

People got through it, you know, I don't know.

Did you fight your way through it? Did you beat them up?

There was one time that there was a fight. They were making fun of another girl and I stood up for her and it kind of led to a little fight.

I love it.

My only fight ever was when I was in fifth grade, but they brought me brownies and apologized the next day, and that was kind of the end of it.

You were not complacent.

I was not.

And you were disturbed. Girl, I like it. All right, so then you, you know what, Acclimated yourself to Northern Indiana.

That's right.

Go to high school. And now you're 20 years old and you're sitting at IU.

Right.

Think about when you were 20. What, like, is the profound attitude lesson from you at 20?

Yeah, well, I mentioned. So that actually happens to be the year I was in George's class. And interestingly enough, I told you about, you know, how every person has worth and dignity and deserves respect.

Yes.

I think that was something that I needed to hear about myself when I was 20.

Cool.

Yeah. So that was probably my big takeaway, was that I deserved that too.

Yeah. And when we look at people who are stuck, when we look at people who are saying, gosh, I want to go from where I am to where I want to be and from who I am to who I want to become. It really does start with the recognition and the validation of your self worth. Right, right. And that you deserve to treat yourself. I always say, you know what, Sometimes we treat ourselves like shit.

Yeah, right, Absolutely.

We treat other people way better than we treat ourselves.

Exactly. Yeah.

Did you feel that?

100%.

Yeah. But then you got over it. George probably helped you with.

He did, he did.

Now you look awfully young. Are you 30?

Yes.

Okay.

Least.

So you get through college and we're. Now you're a 30 year old lady. I'm guessing you might have a few kids when you turn 30. What was in fact the attitude lesson when you were 30 that you can share with our gappers?

Yeah, I think 30. 30 is when I finally started to be more comfortable with who I am. You know, that maybe not needing validation from other people and just being content with who I am. But also it was a very busy time because I had three young kids and I had to remember to do things for myself too. And that doing that was showing them that they should also do the same.

Cool.

Yeah.

That's really good. That's really good.

Yeah.

Well done. What did you work when you were 30 raising those kids?

Oh, yeah, yeah. I've been a teacher.

So you were teaching and raising kids.

Absolutely.

Hard work. It is attitude booster number four. Do more than you're paid for.

Exactly. Hello. That's basically teacher motto. Right.

There you go. Right. And that's supposed to help your attitude. And I think deep down, hopefully it does. Right?

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Because you're building what we call, I don't know, I call it cultural equity in our wonderful country called America. So are you 40?

Yes.

You are over 40. All right, well then you get to keep playing.

I know.

All right, so I want you to think back to your 40th birthday. Right. Think back to that year. What was your attitude at age 40 and how did it evolve from age 20 to 30 to 40? What's the lesson there?

I was surprised that I actually really enjoyed being 40.

Cool.

Yeah. I mean, and I don't know how long that'll continue to last, but I think every decade has gotten better. I'm more comfortably me and happier and more settled and just kind of know who I am and what I want and I love that.

Yeah. So the bottom line is now you kind of said 30 was self fixing. What was your biggest challenge when you. Or 40?

Oh, gosh, I mean, I don't. I think that's why I liked it so much. I felt pretty settled Yeah. I mean, no, I haven't figured out everything, but did you start writing this.

Book when you were 40 or after you were 40?

That was after I was 40.

Okay. So, yeah, now. But you're not 50.

I'm not. Not quite.

So we cannot keep playing Ask Me.

In a couple of years.

I like it. Well, Dawn, I want to let you know I think you've really helped our Gappers figure out how to get where they are from where they are and how to become somebody from who they are right now. I think George's story and I think your experiences that you brought to us teach us a few things, right? They teach you, number one, about compassion and humility. They teach you, number two, to find the good in others and listen to their story. And most importantly, number three, is it. It's to take action.

Absolutely.

Right. I mean, we just love it. May your complacency disturb us profoundly. So, Don, we want to thank you so much for being on the Gap, and I hope that you guys will all turn on. And, Don, thanks for being here.

Great. Thanks.

Thanks. We'll see you guys on the next episode of the Get Attitude podcast. This podcast is a part of the C Suite Radio Network. For more top business podcasts, visit c-sweetradio.com.