Ep51 - Sean Parnell

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Go to reit, KPMG US Trust to learn more. Yet attitude means how can I proactively change the way I think? How can I proactively increase my life? How can I proactively create better relationships and better work situations for me to enjoy it? Hello again everybody and welcome to my gappers. Welcome to the Gap. The Get Attitude Podcast. The Gap Bridging the gap from who you are to who you want to become and bridging the gap from where you are to where you want to be. Hello, my name is Glenn Bill, founder of the University of Attitude, keynote speaker and author of the ABCs of Attitude. I've been fortunate enough to help tens of thousands of people get Attitude. Attitude, the secret formula to success in your business and in your life. And this podcast will help you get yours. So let's get some. I want to welcome everybody. Please remember to subscribe, rate, review and most importantly, share with the people you know in your life that need to get some attitude. Today we are here with a very special person and a person I've known for several years. Pleasure to call him a friend, combat vet and New York Times best selling authority, Sean Parnell.

You know, I'm a soldier. I've been to combat. I know what it's like to feel a bullet cracked by your head. I've been wounded in combat as well, so I know what it's like to recover from those injuries. And really what I wanted to do was give Americans that have never been there a taste of what it's really like. Now you get that in Outlaw Platoon, but it's nonfiction, so I can take it to an entirely new level in man of War and do things that I've always want but never had the opportunity to do it in the military.

All right, and so we are here with author Sean Parnell. You heard it. Author of Outlaw Platoon, his nonfiction book. And now he has two more books out man of War and the brand new book, All Out War. Sean, welcome to the Get Attitude Podcast.

Thank you, Glenn. It's great to be here, man.

It's so good. It's been a few years since I've seen you. Tell us what you've been doing with yourself the past two or three years?

Well, when Outlaw Platoon came out, the book took off. It came out in 2012, and I spent a lot of time traveling around the country telling that story, giving leadership presentations, working with the American Warrior Initiative to give back to our vets. Did that for six years, probably 50 events a year. And one day I just said, you know what? I made myself a promise in Afghanistan to do more than this. And that's really. That was the beginning of writing fiction. Wow.

How cool. And how's that challenge been? You know, we talk about closing the gap from nonfiction to fiction. What had to be in your attitude when you said, I'm going from this Outlaw platoon to this whole new genre? What were the steps? What did you look at? And how did you make that happen?

Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I feel like, for me, there was a point in time in Afghanistan where I just remember very clearly where I said, if somehow I make it home alive, I'm going to try to do everything that I can to make my dreams a reality. Because in combat, there are no second chances, and you don't have 100% chance of coming home. Since I was a kid, I always wanted to write a book, whether it's nonfiction or fiction. I've been a lover of fiction books since I was a kid. Second, third grade. But just like any serious goal, I mean, writing a book to a kid is like saying you want to be a director of a movie or something like that. It's just somehow the dream didn't feel real. But there's something about combat that is. There's no guarantee that you're going to come home alive. And I knew that if I would be blessed enough to make it home alive, I was going to do everything I could to write. And so, people, that's really just how the journey started. And I was lucky enough to make it home, and I was lucky enough to give all that a shot.

Yeah, that's cool. And so if you would, I'd love to just let our viewer, not our viewers, our listeners on the Gap, know a little bit about your experience that started Outlaw Platoon. The story you have is an incredible one. When you first arrived in Afghanistan and the little girl that you met. And so if you wouldn't mind, to help our people. Guys, we are in the last part of our podcast, attitude booster number 10, be a part of something bigger than yourself. And Sean's story when he arrived in Afghanistan is unreal. And we are going to talk and work with Sean to find out what being a part of something bigger than yourself is. And I think, you know, your opening story might be a great way to do that. So if you wouldn't mind to oblige us with that story for our listeners.

Yeah, well, you know, my journey really started when I was a sophomore in college. And, you know, like most college kids, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I think at the time I was an elementary education major, and then I changed my major to secondary education. But the truth is, is that I just never really felt like I was on my path, if that makes sense. I feel like when you're on the path that you're meant to be on, you know it and you walk it.

Cool.

Well, when I was a sophomore, that just wasn't the. All that changed when September 11th happened. And, you know, I saw those buildings collapse and fall down and people die on national television, and I just felt like I knew exactly why God had put me on this earth, and that was to serve something greater than myself. Join the military, get in the fight as fast as possible, and, you know, join the infantry, go to Ranger school, go to airborne school, do all that cool stuff so that I could take the fight to the enemy. And eventually, I got an opportunity to do that a few years later. And, I mean, look, this was in 2005 and 2006. And so at the time, if you think back to that time, at the time, people thought that Afghanistan, the war, was won. We had gone into Afghanistan in 2001. We had taken down the Taliban in three months. And to most Americans, their eyes were fixated on Iraq. The Taliban were defeated, and we were just involved in a stability and support operation over there. And, man, I gotta tell you, it was the exact. We had the exact opposite experience. And, yeah, man, we didn't know what we were getting ourselves into. We didn't know that the composition of the enemy. We didn't know how many people we were fighting, and we were just thrown into the meat grinder. And to your point, on my first day, you know, I'm trying to wrap my mind around the enormity of being 24 years old and being a leader of 40 troops. That was my job. I was their platoon leader. I was their commander.

Wow.

And so I knew at the time, every decision that I make could forever alter the trajectory of their lives. And the consequences of a bad decision might mean one of these amazing Americans goes home in a body bag. And again, Glenn, I was 24. I'd never been out of the country. At that point in my life. So we land in Afghanistan, our bird gets shot at the very first day the rounds miss us, and landed in a playground. And I remember running down to the front gate of our base. There were probably 20 or 30 Afghan families carrying these broken and bloodied and wounded little kids, ages 2 to 6. And at that moment, I just thought, you know, man, war pulls no punches, you know, and oftentimes the innocent and the kids are caught in the middle. And, man, I learned that lesson early. And, you know, we did everything we could to help these kids. I remember running this little girl to the aid station as fast as I could, but before I could, before I could get her there and get her the help that she need, she needed, she had passed away before I could even get her the doctor. Wow. So, yeah, man, it was just that sort of was a microcosm of our entire deployment. It was just like. It was just. It sucked. It sucked really bad.

And so how. What did you say to yourself, like, to get through that? What was the self talk that was going on in your head that kept you moving forward? Do you remember?

Yeah, well, I remember very clearly sitting on my bunk, just trying to wrap my mind around that death, you know, and say, my God, how am I supposed to lead my men competently while getting shot at in life or death situations and experience things like this that are life altering, you know, they're just emotionally traumatic. And it doesn't matter how much training you have or how prepared you are, every time you experience something like that, it whittles a little bit of your soul away, you know? And what I said was, you know what? My men deserve a leader that's confident, decisive, that will get after it for them. And the American people and their families deserve that too. So, you know what? There are more important things that I have to do as a leader in combat. And the essence of those things were a realization of it's not about me at all.

Yeah, that's cool.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to other people before me.

Yeah. And I think for our gappers, whether you're a mother walking on the beach, going through a hard time, or a father or a coach or a teacher, the thought of no matter, love, adversity, number eight, your way through adversity is really maybe to focus on something that's bigger than yourself and those other people that are bigger than yourself. And it sounds like that's what you did. Now, I think I've heard you speak many times if you could, and Then we can move out of Afghanistan into the present. But you had to hold up a mountain with just very few men. And I don't know if this is true or not, but did a grandfather or somebody of one of the kids that you worked with or saved, he saved your life. I'd love to hear that story because it comes around.

That's a great. Yeah. I don't get a chance to talk about this that often, so, you know, but first, before I get into that, I want to. I want to talk about, like, serving something greater than yourself.

Cool.

I did. I was not focused at all. I was a C student. I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life. Right. And 9, 11 happened. And that's a very tangible example. We were reached out, we were attacked. And people say all the time, when you join the military, I want to raise my right hand, serve something greater than myself. And all that's true. But what it did for me was give me a laser focus on life where my professional career was tied to service of something greater. So it doesn't matter if you're an accountant, doesn't matter if you work in the mortgage industry. You can figure out a way to braid your career with something that really matters, that you feel like is bigger than you, that is your rocket fuel to propel you through the adverse and difficult times. And so for me, in order for me to be in the infantry, in order for me to be a Ranger, in order for me to be on the front lines and get what I wanted and achieve my goals, I had to be a 4.0 student. I had to be number one in my class because there are thousands of other people that were competing for those few slots. So I went from a C student to a 4.0 student. I went from not graduating with honors to graduating Magna Cuhn Loud in just a year. So it was just that principle of serving something greater than yourself that gave me the focus I needed to drive through everything else. And so, you know, leading to the story that I'm about to tell. Like, there I was. We had been in combat for a year at this point. And so three, you know, January a year, 85% casualty rate. Six of my men had been shot in the head. We had been through hell and back. My base, thousands. Over 3,000 indirect fire attacks on my base. My platoon was shot at. We were in direct fire engagements hundreds of times. And so we're two days from home, right? We're two days from coming home. Everyone in my platoon is like, we made it, this is great. Two more days, 48 hours, and we're on our way home.

Don't say that.

I know. Exactly, exactly. I learned that lesson the hard way after this attack. But I get this call in the middle of the night, right after we've just been through hell. Everybody's convincing themselves that they made it right. I get this call at 3 o' clock in the morning in late January of 2007. And it's just a very sobering call from my battalion commander saying, sean, There are over 300 enemy fighters moving to attack your unit right now. 250 from the east and 100 from the northwest approaching you in a massive pincer movement. We were building what was to become the very first combat outpost in Afghanistan. And the base itself wasn't even complete. We were surrounded by half filled wall, four gun trucks on the ground, 20 guys that were like mentally checked out, ready to go home, that hadn't been given the warning yet that these people were coming to attack them. It was one of those moments. It was one of those like, oh my God, I might not make it through the night.

Wow. And then what ended up saving you?

Well, so just prior to this, we had drove through a very remote village and we witnessed some of the most horrific things that you could possibly imagine in this village. Kids that were captured and raped by the Taliban, tortured by the Taliban in Al Qaeda, forced to do horrific things. I mean, really, the depravity of our enemy that we faced there was just. I've never seen or experienced anything like that in my life up until that moment.

Right.

So what we did was make a conscious decision to take care of the Afghan people and do everything that we could to protect them from the enemy's predations. And that included giving him medical treatment in our medical gear. And we helped those little kids and the village elder, one of the kids that had been tortured the worst by the Taliban was his son, his grandson. And he fell in love with American troops after that. And he knew that the enemy was coming to attack us that day. And he walked all the way to Ford Operating Base Burmel, which was, I don't know, 35 miles away from where his remote village was started two or three days prior. And he was in his 60s in Afghanistan wearing nothing but flip flops to warn us of the attack. And that ultimately is what saved us. And, you know, we stacked up air from Apache helicopters to Predator to AC130 gunships to strategic B1 Lancer. And we, I mean, the goal of the infantry is what they say. And it might seem kind of harsh, but when you get on the objective, the only thing that you want to have to do is kick boots. Right. Because if you're in a fair fight in combat, you're losing.

Sure.

That day, it was not a fair fight.

Yeah. And we went and you guys lived, which was good.

Yes, yes.

Which is really good. I think that story is just so powerful. And, you know, I don't know. I would have to think you have a heightened sense of karma. Maybe, you know, you were over there doing good, and then when you committed to those kids. I'll never forget when you told that story from the stage. I mean, it just impacted me to say, you know, the goodness of men, the goodness that can happen when you are doing something bigger. Do you believe in karma or did the battlefield go, yeah, that's karma's bullshit. I mean, what's your thought on that?

I believe in a lot of things now that I didn't before I went to war.

Right.

I've got this St. Christopher medal that I wear. You know, my family. My grandfather wore it. He went to church every day. He was one of those old school Catholics that would, like, do the sign of the cross every time he'd pass a church, you know?

Right.

Well, he died the day before I was supposed to go to Afghanistan, and I was lucky enough to attend his funeral. And he was like a second father to me. Wow. Really? He was. And my grandfather, my grandmother said to me as she pressed this medal into my hand, she said, you know, I feel like he let himself go so he could keep an eye on you over there. And he would have wanted you to have this. And it's this medal right here. It's been in my family. I mean, he wore it every day since 1946. It's inscribed, Holy.

Holy.

How cool. And there were times in the battlefield especially, or a moment where I fractured my skull. I was knocked unconscious. I didn't know what the hell was going on around me. And I feel like I could hear him. And, you know, people think maybe. I mean, there are probably some people out there that think I'm crazy. But I felt him with me, and it was a crazy, weird sensation. But I look back on that moment and it feels like it was just yesterday. It still feels real. Glen. Man, there were times we got shot at so much, I would go back to the base and I'd look at my uniform and there'd be holes in my uniform. I'm like, how did this bullet not hit Me? Why am I still alive? Why am I not dead?

It's just Saint Chris.

Yeah.

Yeah. Here's my medal. This is. I wear St. Jude, patron saint of hopeless cases and miracles. Right. So I'm. I'm a daily communion taker as well. And I don't know, maybe your grandpa sitting here on this podcast with us. It's funny that you would even bring that up or say that. So, yeah. Are you still a practicing Catholic or.

You know, I feel like I am spiritually a Catholic. Yeah. Cool. Less into the bureaucratic entity. That's the church.

So are millions of people. So, yeah, we're not here to talk religion or politics, but, you know, it's kind of the way it goes.

I'm an open book on all of it. You know, I feel like when you come home from war, I mean, that changes your view on things. I mean, obviously I'm a very spiritual, God fearing guy.

Yeah.

But I'm also jaded about a lot of other experiences too. You know, you don't go through all those life and death experiences when you're 24 and not come out thinking differently.

Yeah, I would have to think that. You said it at least once. How could there be a God after you saw what you saw? Did that question ever broach your mind or the people around you? And how did you reconcile that?

Yeah.

Or haven't you? Maybe you haven't. I don't know.

No, no, listen, these are great questions. Yeah, I ask myself that all the time then, now every day. And I guess the way I reconcile it is that I think about what it means to be an American warrior and what it means to serve in the greatest military force the world has ever known. And those aren't talking points to me. What I think makes the US Military truly exceptional, Glenn, is that at the core of who we are, we're liberators and protectors. We're not conquerors. And so when you think about that, if that is what makes us special, then we also have a choice as to whether or not we are good or evil. And we're given that choice from God through a free will. And free will, awesome. I always looked at us. That's how I reconciled, though. You see how evil the enemy is over there and you say there are people in today's society that will excuse that. Well, that's just how they've always been. What you would call cultural moral relativism. No, I don't agree with that. Some things are just evil. And if you're preying on small Children, you're evil. And so that's how I reconciled it. Goodness and good versus evil. It's a choice. And I feel like the American military chooses good every single day.

Yeah. Wonderful. That's awesome. Thanks. I think that's great. One of the best reconciliations that I talked to was with a nurse who worked, and I actually did a little bit of work in children's hospice, you know, with children with cancer. And she's going, how in the world can there be a God? And these kids are suffering with cancer. And then somebody. And I believe it might have been St. Paul. I'm no biblical scholar, but you know, that saying, through death is how we learn how to live. And so, you know, God may put evil to help us understand good, and God puts death in our lives and in front of us to help us understand, really, how to live better. And I thought, man, that's really a good way to reconcile things. For sure.

That's right. I mean, yeah, the fact that death surrounds us every day. I mean, you never know what tomorrow can bring. And I don't mean to be fatalistic, but the very fact that we're mortal and that we know there is an end is what makes life worth living. It's what makes things special. And so got to believe that there's a big plan, a much larger plan out there for all of us. And so regardless of what you believe, you know, I feel like. I feel like, for me, anyway, I came out of Afghanistan with a much greater appreciation of life.

Yeah. That's great. That's such a great message. Let me ask you this, and you've touched on a little bit, but what was your attitude going into war, and what was your attitude coming home from war? And it could be a very simple attitude, you know, Very simple answer. I don't know.

No, it's a journey. It's an odyssey. It's a. You go from. Think about it like this, when. When the. A lot of the reason why warriors struggle is because they go from a very prestigious warrior culture where being the best rifleman in the battalion means something to the core, who you are to. A lot of these kids come out, and then they're flipping burgers, are making sandwiches at Subway. Now, by the way, there's nothing wrong with that. I did that before I joined the military. It's fine. But there is a pretty significant qualitative, existential difference between those two things. So people can be very jaded when they come home, Glenn. And so I know. I recognize that right away. You know, I Thought, you know, hey, yeah, this sucks. Yes, this is a challenge. But guess what, buddy? I raised my right hand and I volunteered for this. So who the hell am I to complain about it? I wanted this. So this challenge is something that I asked for, and I have to own it. And then I have to do what I say, move out and draw fire, and be as successful as I possibly can.

One of the things on our book that we talk about is this thing called A Pivotal question. And some people get it, some people don't. And you may not have it, but you're good. And you're a speaker now. And for God's sakes, you're a ranger. I'm sure you might be able to figure it out, but I'm going to go here because my guess is there's something that goes through your head. And in the ABCs, we talk about your pivotal question. In times of great stress and in times of great decision making, we're all run by this story, but we're all run by a question that we continue to ask ourselves. And I mentioned my pivotal question before I changed. It was what does can't mean? I would always say, what does can't mean? What does can't mean? What does can't mean? And then I talk about the quality of our life is determined by the quality of questions we ask ourselves about our life. So I changed my question to what does can't mean? Because I used to achieve a lot, but I would leave carnage behind me. And I moved my question to how can I move people from cant to can in a loving and constructive manner. When I changed that question about my life and that what goes through my head now, my life changed. So what I'm wondering is, do you find yourself as you walk around and.

Or.

When you're in great stress or great decision, is there a question that you find yourself asking yourself all the time? Does that make sense to you?

Two very, very fundamental ones, one of which is every morning I wake up and I draw breath, I ask, am I worthy of the great sacrifice that my men who never came home sacrifice for me? Wow. Because, you know, they didn't get a chance to come home. And my God, I sure as hell, every single day better live life to the fullest because they didn't get the opportunity to. That's first question that's on my mind every day, Glenn.

Wow.

The second one is, and I think this one has been really important for me, is what would you do in your life if you knew that you could not Fail, Right.

Yeah.

And so how often do we limit ourselves just by virtue of fear of failure?

Right, Right.

That really. I mean, the catalyst for writing Outlaw Platoon in that book was making sure that the legacy of my troops was captured on the page so that we could pass down their heroism from generation to generation. Now, what's interesting about that is that I came out of the military in the wake of. I joined the military in the wake of 9, 11, went to combat, fought, came out in my next mission, the next greater than myself mission was preserving the legacy of my troops. That is what gave me the laser focus to get that book published. And I'm telling you, I was rejected by my own agents four or five times. I was rejected by every major publisher out there. Everyone, hands down, said no. Right. But what it came down to is that focus on, hey, this mission of writing this book is bigger than me. And that is. That right there is what made me. I feel, like, unstoppable in the pursuit of accomplishing that mission. And so once Outlaw Platoon came out, Glenn, it was just a matter of, like, okay, what's next? What's next? So it's really the question of, what would you do if you knew that you couldn't fail? And so I just said, you know what? I made myself a promise that if somehow I made it out of Afghanistan alive, I'm gonna try to take a crack at fiction. Look, I'm not a writer. John Bruning taught me everything I know about writing. And on Outlaw Platoon, he worked with me, taught, coached, and mentored me every step of the way. I feel like I had a great apprenticeship with him, and I took what I learned and I brought it to the fiction world. But, oh, my God, it was a totally different style of writing, and. But I wasn't going to be stopped. You know, I knew this was something that I wanted to do. I knew that I promised myself that if I made it out alive, I would take a crack at it. And I did. And, you know, man of War, the book man of War, what's on the shelves today is, like, the fifth or sixth version of that story. I was rejected by my editor five or six times, had to start from scratch. And it's just, how hard are you willing to work for the things that matter to you, for the things that you want to do? And that's always been on the forefront of my mind. Yeah.

And I think you hit it when you talked about the fuel of life. And I think about our gappers that are listening now. And I think what you hit on is so important with that second question. And when we see when people are stuck, when people feel like other people are dictating their future, when people aren't willing to take the next step to see what they're able to do, oftentimes we find what is holding them up or holding them back is they're all introspective. It's all about them, and they're only focusing on them and how they feel. And what you just said was, man, no, man, my mind was about my troops. And so I think the lesson there for our gappers is if you are stuck in a personal relationship, a business relationship, a financial problem, who knows what problem you're in? The answer may lie or probably does lie outside of yourself. So, Sean, that was awesome.

Look, I personally believe that the root of all human suffering is excessive focus on oneself, right? We draw and drive meaning through putting others before ourselves. Glenn, nobody is coming to your funeral because you made $2.5 million every year for 30 years. When you die, people will come to your funeral based on what you do for others. That ultimately is how you leave a legacy. And so that all starts with service to something greater than yourself. And what predisposes all of that is the understanding that it's not about you and that if you want to live a meaningful life, you can't excessively focus on yourself. You have to put others before you and figure out a way to. To serve others. Yeah, that's it.

They say the root of all suicide rests in the question. The root of all suicide rests in the question, why can't it be better for me? Right? It's like suicide is the most ultimate, selfish sacrifice. Now, that's what's been said. But that leads us to our next thing, which, you know, I know you're very in tune with. And that's our suicide rate of our warriors. And for us to call them selfish people, that doesn't seem right. And that's probably offensive, right?

No, no, not at all. I agree with you. I feel like I agree with you. I would add to that that I feel like there is a cultural misunderstanding of what it means to be a warrior and warrior culture, right? So if you think about what it means to be an elite warrior today and what we believe, right, There's a reason why veterans say to each other, like, until Valhalla, they believe that, you know, when they die, they get to go be with their brothers in the halls of Odin in Valhalla. You know what I mean? So look, or Samurai, when they die or they fail or they feel like they failed, samurai take their life because it's something. It's honorable. Right. They get to. It's an honorable end to a light, the life of a warrior. And so with the. The fact a warrior is the oldest profession in the world, it's archetypal in many ways. And so the traits of warriors transcend from one generation to the next. Right. And in many ways, probably ways that we don't even realize. We're very like. I am very similar to samurai that fought on the battlefield a thousand years ago.

Absolutely.

Or a Spartan that fought 2,000 years ago. Right. So those qualities are in American warriors. And there's no question in my mind that the elevated rate of suicide in this country among American veterans, there is a correlation between what we see or how we frame suicide in our mind as maybe getting to be with your brothers again versus how civilians see it. Right. And so is that the answer? Is that the full answer? No. Are there things that we could be doing better culturally? Absolutely. But veterans don't see suicide as a wholly negative thing.

Cool. Very interesting. And it's a great perspective. What would you say? I mean, you're not a doctor, you're not a psychologist. What would be the number one thing that America could do if we really put this on a priority to help our warriors to lower that suicide rate? I mean, what could America do if it knew it wouldn't fail to help these guys? What would your thoughts be? Like, what is it?

Yeah. Well, I think the solution to veteran suicide lies in a solution that is largely cultural based. Right. So in other words, like, there's no policy that our lawmakers can make in Washington will fix the issue. There's no amount of money that we can dump into the VA to help them fix the issue. Of course, there are reforms that we can make that would make things better.

Right.

But I think what it boils down to is that most veterans, when they come home, feel like they're exiles in their own country. They feel like their friends, neighbors, and family don't know them or don't understand them anymore.

Right.

And that can lead to a profound sense of isolation. And isolation, in its most extreme cases, can lead to drug addiction, alcoholism, suicide.

Right.

And so what can America do to help this problem is make veterans coming home from war more important to every family member, every person in this country. And I think it just starts with a simple conversation of asking civilians, asking veterans what their experience of war was like. And the reason that that's Important is that civilians in this country, we vote our politicians into office, and then our politicians vote to send us a war. Therefore, civilians have share in the responsibility of sending warriors to war. Therefore, they have a responsibility when soldiers come home to help them carry that very heavy burden. And so conversations first, last, and always with our veterans, you know, based in mutual respect and understanding. Going into it, knowing that you don't have all the answers and you don't. You're not going to understand, but you're willing to listen and you can take it.

Yeah, that's cool. That's great advice. Hey, we have people that see warriors, help them, help them, help our word. What would be the one or two best questions to ask a warrior when you see him?

Well, so what I got was. And it was, you know, I don't look back on this stuff in a negative way, but every veteran comes home and gets, did you kill everybody? Did you kill anyone? What was that like? Every veteran gets that. And that's okay. I mean, I get it. People are surprised when you say yes. You know, I'll tell you that, right? If you had to say something to a veteran, maybe it's not a question. Maybe it's just like, look, you felt like it was your duty to serve. I feel like it's my duty as a responsible American citizen to listen. If you need someone to talk to, awesome. And more than that, I want to hear about it. I care. I want to hear about it, and I can take it. And you're not going to hurt me with your experience. Just tell me. I can handle it, man.

That's cool. That's cool. Well, hopefully we'll take that advice. Okay, so let's just shift gears a little bit. I'd love to know you had a. You know, there's nothing like the brotherhood. Right. Of soldiers. Tell me the soldier that you felt had the best attitude, let's honor him. Right? When you went, God, that guy's got a good attitude, or that guy always lifted us up. I'm wondering, what's his name, hopefully, Is he still with us or not? And why did he have such a good attitude for you?

Well, I gotta tell you, I was so lucky to have all my soldiers. You know, every single one of them were special and lifted us up in different ways, you know, and that was one of the things that I felt was truly special about Outlaw Platoon. We had guys from every walk of life, black, white, Asian, Christian, atheist, Muslim. Didn't really matter where you're from or how much money you made. We were all in it together, you know, and every one of those guys was exactly what we needed them to be at the exact moment they needed to be at to help lift us all up. And I mean, gosh, to name one I feel like would be to do a disservice. Together. They were just, they were just great. I mean, we just had so many great soldiers that when you felt like you were your lowest, you felt like you couldn't go anymore, there was someone right there next to you helping to pick you up, you know. And I think that was the critical component of what made us so successful in combat, is that it was about the man next to you, first, last and always. And while we were very different, we were always there for each other.

Yeah, that's cool. So I was getting ready to ask you what was the, you know, attitude is the way you dedicate yourself to the way you think. Right. In its simplest form. I'm curious as a leader because I know you talk on this. What is the leadership attitude? And in your platoon, was there an attitude or a mantra that you guys live by? Be curious to know what that was.

Yes, no doubt about it. So we had a love hate relationship with this. We were the best, period. The end. And what's funny about this Glenn, is that we were the black sheep in the, in the battalion leading up, like we couldn't get anything right. We would get re cocked on training exercises, do it again, 1, 2, 3, 4, 20 times. I mean we were like the bad news bears of the battalion. But by the time we got to combat, we were locked on target, man. And we just gained a reputation in theater, both in our unit and amongst the enemy that we were by far the best. Now that's a catch 22 or a double sided, a double edged sword in combat. Because if you're the best, you're the one that gets all the hardest missions, you're the one that leads point on every operation, you're the one that takes the heaviest casualties. But the attitude of we're the best, to hell with everybody else, like, you know, we stand alone together. I have to say in those life and death situations, guys getting wounded all around us, we would have rather had been the best than been anything else. And so all of that negative, the risk of life and limb and injuries and death in combat came secondary to the attitude of we're the best and we own it.

That's awesome. Now I can tell you this, we have had some awesome guests and I'm going to tell you right now, this is one of the best podcasts we've ever had, Sean. So I do appreciate you.

Cool, man. Are you kidding me? This is amazing. You're crushing it. I love this. I love the concept. I love everything that you got going on.

Thank you. You know, and I was wondering, is there a podcast? I just wonder, is there a podcast for our vets and our warriors to listen to? Like, is there a guy that's out there helping with the warrior podcast?

Well, I got to tell you, like Jocko Willink's podcast. Yeah, I did his podcast and he's got. He. What he does is profile essentially, like warriors on his podcast. Not all the time, but a lot of the time. And I did his podcast a few weeks ago, and it was five and a half hours long, which I didn't know. I mean, I sort of flew out there and I was lucky enough that he invited me on the show and I flew out there, man, and it was just a crazy experience. He got 1.5 million listeners and stuff, and so he just does such a great job at going deep on warrior issues. So you're a veteran or a family member and you want to learn more about warrior culture. I mean, I feel like you got to listen to his podcast.

Yeah, that's. That's cool. So we want our Gappers to hit Jocko. I'm sure everybody does. We're just starting out, we're just launching. And we're honored that. That you came. We're gonna take a quick little commercial break and come back with Sean Parnell.

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Hello and welcome back to the Gap. We are here with Sean Parnell, war veteran and New York Times best Selling author with his new book, All Out War. And Sean, we're getting ready to close our podcast with something we do called Knowledge through the Decades. And what this is, it sometimes catches our people a little bit off guard. But what we're going to do is ask you to go through your life from birth to where you are now with the best lessons that you've been taught. And I tell you what, we get gold on this because it's unrehearsed and we just want you to speak from your heart. So what we do is we say what is the best attitude lesson or what is the best lesson from an infant? From when you were born. And I know you have three children or when they were born. What can infants teach us?

Sometimes if you raise enough hell, you get exactly what you want.

There you go. That's very easy, right? And then sometimes you're getting the unvarnished truth here.

I don't know what's going to come out of my mouth. Jesus, that's crazy.

That is good. But if you. Yeah. Bitch. Enough. And then when you get about one year old, then nothing happens for you. So, Sean. Yeah. I'm just curious. Where were you born? You mentioned that your dad was one of your heroes. Tell us a little bit about when you were, like your earliest memories as a kid.

Yeah. Okay. So my dad, my mom were amazing. I love them. I was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Born and raised here in Western Pennsylvania.

I'm so sorry about our Steelers.

Are you a Steelers fan?

Well, I bought him. I bought him in a Parlay as my first round pick. I spent $500. I'm like, I love the coach. I love the quarterback. I love the defense, and they suck.

They're struggling. Man, I was really excited for this season. Being able to, like, go into it with big eyes. No Le'Veon Bell. No. No Antonio Brown. No drama in the locker room. But, man, losing those players is hurt. Yeah.

Talent means a lot. So anyway, you're. You were born in Pittsburgh. You have great parents. I'm just curious, earliest childhood memory, earliest lesson you had as a kid, if you remember.

Yeah, this is a great question. So I don't remember. I was probably. I mean, I probably have memories earlier than this, but I think one of the most profound memories I had was I worked my butt off to build this clubhouse by myself. My dad had just taught me. We built a deck together in the back of our house. So I was, like, inspired to build this clubhouse. And so I did. I worked really hard. And I was at the. I Think it was in third or fourth grade, working those saws and nailing pieces of plywood together. I built my own clubhouse with my own two hands. And we had just moved into a new neighborhood, and I purged it up, read my first book in there on day one, went to bed, woke up, and the whole thing was destroyed. And I was devastated. And these new bullies from this neighborhood that I was in had destroyed this. And I was crushed because I had invested so much time and energy to do it and build it myself. And my mom said something to me that I'll never forget. And it stuck with me for a long time. And that's it. You know, Sean, I'm so sorry that this happened to you. You know, she was a great mom, but she says, you know, you just can't let anybody else limit your joy. You do what you have to do. If you, you know, and I thought about that years later, is that it makes sense, because if you let someone determine your attitude or your mood, then you give them 100% control of yourself.

Yeah.

And that's what she meant. And so right after that, I remember, I never really understood why she did this in the moment, but she and my dad helped me carry that thing back up the hill and set it up, because. Don't let anyone limit your joy.

That's cool. That's cool. So you kind of maybe bled into Sean Parnell as a 10 year old, so I may have to have you reach back in and find me another antidote. But I want you to think about being 10 years old in Pittsburgh. Think about hanging around your friends. Did you have siblings, brothers or sisters?

I did. I'm the oldest of four. I have a younger sister and two younger brothers.

Cool. So you prob me mind kicking the shit out of them or something like that? I don't know. But what I'd love to know. And that message was big, you know? Don't let anybody control your joy. Is that what you just told me?

Don't let anyone limit your joy.

Limit your joy. Interesting word choice. Don't let anybody limit your joy. You're 10 years old. Tell me your greatest attitude lesson at 10. Wow. Besides that.

I remember at 10 years old, probably one of the most formidable experiences in my life was that I. Again, I circle back to the bullying. You know, I mean, I was bullied pretty terribly. And I remember very clearly on the bus, these. This group of kids that were way bigger than me, and everyone just says, oh, you know, it's a bully. Punch them in the nose. You know, stand up for yourself. Sometimes it's not that easy. Sometimes there are five guys that are way bigger than you. If you punch one of those, you're dead. And so sometimes there's just no way out. And I remember I sat there on the bus with these. These kids relentlessly bullied me, and no one. No one got up or said anything. And that leads me to this sort of life lesson that I learned of. Never walk by evil.

Yeah.

Wow. If you see it. If you see. You know, if you see something that is terrible, you have. You have a moral obligation to get involved and put it. To put it to a stop. And I feel like those two stories I told you, one about my mom and this specific experience is ultimately, I think, what led me to the military in some strange, roundabout way.

Yeah. Isn't that funny? I mean, it's amazing. As we do this and we get into people's attitudes, we find. And that's part of the reason we do this, they go, holy shit. That's why I am the way I am.

Right.

And so, you know, bullying is tough. I've always been one. I was always. Usually one of the bigger kids. And I just did allow it. And I used to. I was the protector of others. That's just always the way I was. I never. Well, I was the youngest of five, so I was constantly bullied. So I feel that. And I think, again, people listening to this, they may be parents of kids that are being bullied. Right. There may be kids that are being bullied. And you sit there and you go, and I'm talking physical abuse and physical bullying. You know, I don't know how to overcome that. Emotional bullying, I think you can do stuff with. Have you experienced or do you have any words of wisdom for families that are going through. Either you got a child that's being bullied, or you're being bullied yourself. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Well, I mean, I think in this case, parents need to be involved and not detached. I mean, so there is some. I mean, those experiences, looking back, they shaped me. Those hardships shaped who I.

Right, right.

But it doesn't make them right, you know, And I think as parents, you. Generally speaking, we want to fix every issue that our kids go through. And so if your kid is experiencing bullying in school, of course you would want to put it to a stop. But you know where the line is. If someone is being horrifically bullied and getting their butt kicked every single day and it's physical and it's distracting them from sports and school and other relationships and affecting their mood. Parents have to get involved. You can't just say, well, you know, handle it yourself. Yes, yes, There is a time and place for that. Right. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that there isn't, but I am saying you've got to get involved. You got to go to the school, you got to talk to the principal, you got to talk to the teacher, and you have to ask them very specifically what they're doing to put a stop to it and how they're combating bullying in their classrooms, in their hallways, you know? Yeah. When you give your kids to the school, you trust that they're being protected at the same level that you would protect them.

Yeah.

And if that's not the case, you have a duty as a parent to get involved and say something.

Yeah, that's really good. That's very good. Yeah, some. Yeah, there's some people that don't even know the names of their teachers. Right, exactly. Kids, teachers. Unfortunately, I hate to say that that might have been me, but I had a very good wife that was very active, so that's good. So, okay, Sean, you're through grade school. What high school did you go to?

I went to two. I went to Franklin Regional High School, but I graduated from Greensburg Central Catholic High School.

You didn't get kicked out, did you?

No, but I wasn't exactly the most stellar student on the face of the earth, either.

All right, so the Catholics got you shaped up.

You got that four, zero, talked me into shape.

That's good. So 20 years old. Sean Parnell, at 20, what was the attitude lesson that you learned and what impacted you Most at age 20?

I feel like what impacted me most was the, you know, I didn't earn my first paycheck, but I had really worked my butt off in an Italian restaurant. And, you know, for years, I'd worked there as a busboy at the lowest levels, washing dishes. And I worked my way up to when I was 20. I was waiting tables, and I was a bartender. And I remember looking back when I was 20 thinking like, damn, sometimes you're not going to get all the accolades. Sometimes people aren't going to come up to you and say, you know what? Good job. But there's no substitute for doing the right thing all the time and working your ass off in that regard. At 20 years old, I thought to myself, you know what? Here I am. I'm doing what I want to do. But I didn't put a timetable on It. I just worked towards that goal diligently every day to make it happen, and it happened. So I really took that lesson, I feel like, and applied it to my life in other ways, but I ultimately, I feel like I really learned it when I was 20.

Yeah, that's cool. Number four, do more than you're paid for.

Yes.

People don't like number four, especially teenagers and millennials.

Yeah, that is especially true.

They want to do less than they're paid for, but they want to do.

Less than they're paid for, and they think that should be. They think that their pay should be more than what they deserve.

Well, it's. Yeah, we just saw it. We just did a study. And I love millennials. I got kids who are millennials, but the two things they value most are fame and fortune. They all want to be famous, and they all want to be rich, but they, like, just want it to happen. Pretty interesting.

That is interesting. And that's. God, I can't tell you how many people that I talk to at Book Signage are like, oh, you're a writer. That's so awesome. I want to do that, too. And I'm like, it's like learning to ride a bicycle without a seat while you're on fire. It's not easy. Like, getting a book published is not easy. I think it's like, I'm out in Cabo sipping Mai Tais, writing books like, you know, my downtime flying. That is not how it is. It's the least sexy job in the face of the planet. And I think what people tend to do is see the success, but not the hard work. That got it. That got you there.

Yeah. And as a keynote speaker, you know, I. You know, I love it. I go on stage, you've done it. You speak, you know, you just don't show up and do a hour keynote, and that's it. I know, right?

It's rough, hard. Yeah.

You're missing family. You got to connect with the room. You got to do your research. I mean, there's just a whole lot. And people like, I've always wanted to be a motivational speaker, Glenn. I go, well, be careful what you wish for. So we get to 20. You go, man, I need to do more than I'm paid for. I need to At 10, I need to not walk by evil. And as a baby, I think you said, I got to disrupt some shit and let everybody know what's going on. I can see the path. So now you're 30, and are you in Afghanistan at 30?

I was in Afghanistan at 24.

So you were home at 30?

Yeah, I was a company commander in the infantry. Well, perhaps I was probably. I might have even been out. I might have been a newly retired captain who was looking for his next mission.

Do you remember. Do you remember your 30th birthday at all?

No, I. You know, yeah, I do, actually. I do. Okay. So, yeah. Okay. So this is great. I was in grad school and back in Pittsburgh, and I had a surprise birthday for my 30th birthday.

Cool.

Yeah.

Who. Who threw it for you?

One of my friends.

No kidding. And did you drink some good bourbon?

I feel like, yeah, more of a whiskey guy, but, you know, Jack Daniels guy. But yeah, absolutely, I did.

I remember we had. We had Jack after a time. We talked once. It was fun. I said, I like that guy. So when you get to Indy, you come. I got a nice whiskey bar for you. So, 30, you're in grad school. What was the. What was the attitude lesson when you were 30? What comes to your mind that can help our gappers today?

Well, so I was in grad school. I was in grad school for clinical psychology, getting my PhD, and I just didn't feel like I was on the right path. Initially, when I got into a PhD program, the reason for it was that I wanted to help soldiers that were struggling. I feel like it was an altruistic motive, but I just didn't feel in the right place. Then I got the opportunity to write Outlaw Platoon. I got an agent, I got a publisher, and then all of a sudden, I had this big book coming out, and I was facing a choice. Stay in grad school or publish my book. And the university made it very hard to do both. Impossible. So I knew that I had a once in a lifetime opportunity to get out there, preserve the legacy of my troops, or stay in grad school and fulfill a commitment. Now, I have never not fulfilled a commitment. This is why it was really hard. I'm a never quit kind of guy. When I start something, I finish it. I've always been like that. And so what I learned here is that following your heart, I knew what was right the whole time. But it was a very, very difficult decision. Eventually, I made the right one and promoted the book. Struck while the iron is hot. And I think because I did that, I can help thousands of more people than I ever could have in a PhD program. But at the time, man, I agonized over the decision. And, you know, in your heart of hearts and in your gut, what's right. I mean, oftentimes, even when you meet somebody, that subtle feeling in your stomach or in the back of your head, you're like, I'm not so sure. Listen to that voice. It means something. It's your unconscious mind either saying, warning, Will Robinson, or this is right. And in the wake of grad school, I knew. I knew when I was faced with that choice, I knew what was right, but I agonized over the decision. And so I learned in that lesson to just sort of listen to that little voice in my head, trust it, and follow your heart.

That's awesome, Sean. I can tell you that with what you just said, I felt in that spot as well. I'm convinced that the people that listen to this because they're searching on how to bridge the gap, are in that same dilemma.

Yes. Oh, what a great point.

You know, and there's almost too much opportunity for a lot of us, and we're all being sold on what we should be doing, and we're all being told to compare ourselves with others when we really shouldn't. And we become immobilized with all the opportunity when it's all said and done. And I think that your guidance today, the stories that you talked about, where you come from, how you shaped your attitude, how you made decisions when it was tough, this is all information that our gaffers can take as they're sitting there trying to get and bridge the gap from where they are to where they want to be. It was an honor to speak to you. I want to thank you for your service. I want to thank you, what you do for our warriors. And I hope that we have plenty of warriors that are going to be listening to us on the gap and especially listening to this interview. I guess. Just one final question, Sean. What we've done all out war, what's on the horizon for you? And, you know, you've written your third book. What's your attitude now? What are you thinking about? And what can we be seeing from you in the next five years?

Well, right now, I'm 30,000 words into the next Steelbook. I'm working on a nonfiction leadership book, so I've got two books in the pressure cooker.

Cool.

But really, what you said about crossing that gap, really what it boils down to when you're. When you're surrounded with opportunity, because really, we all are.

Right, Right.

The freedom to do and choose what we want to do every day. Right. Ultimately, that's what it boils down to.

Yeah.

Like, what would you do if you knew you couldn't fail, you know. And so for me, that's always in the forefront of my mind before I make any decision. So I'm going to write, I'm going to keep writing these fiction books. I've got my third book will come out in September of next year. It's going to be no holds bar. I'm really, I'm excited about the story. But the year after that, I got a leadership book coming out as well that's sort of like the follow on, not a follow on story directly to Outlaw Platoon, but distills the leadership lessons that I learned while I was getting shot at. So at least over the next two or three years, that's what you'll see.

That's cool. Well, what we're going to talk, I think what I'll title this when we promote this will be Sean Parnell bridging the gap from Afghanistan to the New York Times bestseller stand. How does that sound?

That's cool and edgy. I'm cool with it.

All right, brother. Well, Sean, it's always so good to see you. I hope someday we get to speak again on a stage. I hope when you're in Indy, you look me up. When I'm in Pitt, I'll look you up. And my best to your family and God bless you. I really appreciate and thank you being the person that you are, man.

Thank you for having me, Glenn. I appreciate your friendship and the time you gave me today.

All right. All right. Thanks so much. And we will see you on the next Get Attitude podcast when we talk about being a part of something bigger than yourself. This podcast is a part of the C Suite Radio Network. For more top business podcasts, visit c-suiteradio.com.