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In a world full of turmoil, despair and darkness, you need to carry the light. Season three of the Get Attitude Podcast is where we will ignite your mind, your heart and your attitude. And welcome to the GAP, the Get Attitude Podcast, the gap, bridging the gap from who you are to who you wish to become and from where you are to where you want to go. Hello, my name is Glenn Bill, founder of the University of Attitude, Keynote speaker and author of the international best-selling book, the ABCs of Attitude, I've been so fortunate to help tens of thousands of people. Hell, maybe it's a hundred of thousand people at this point. And we know that attitude is the secret formula to success not only in your life, but also in your business. And this podcast will help you get yours. So let's get some. I want to welcome everybody to the Get Attitude podcast. Please remember, to subscribe number one, to like us, to follow us, to rate us and review us. And if you love this episode, which I'm sure you will, download that link. If you got pro basketball fans in your sphere, send them this link, because you know what? We have one of my favorite basketball players ever. The gentleman's name is Mr. Darnell Hillman, also known as Dr. Dunk. Now, I'm not sure if they coined him the doctor before Dr. Dr. Jay, but he was so much prettier and his afro was maybe a little bit bigger than Dr. Jay's, what he's going to tell us. He was the NBA's first dunk champion and was just, if I remember, crowned with that, I don't know, a few years back. But you know what, guys, enough about me talking. Let's bring the one and only, the legend, Darnell Hillman from the Indiana Pacers and the NBA. Welcome, Darnell, to the Get Attitude podcast.

Thank you. I appreciate the invite, Glenn.

All right, my man. Well, hey, we always love to start our podcast with one pretty simple question. And that is, how do you define attitude?

Attitude, I think, for myself was about your attitude can determine your success in life and whatever it is you want to accomplish. And every morning when I get up in the morning, in the morning, go to that bathroom, look in that mirror, I ask myself, is my attitude positive? Is it negative? And if it's negative, that's going to hamper a lot of your success because you're walking around with that chip on your shoulder. So you have to take these negative things and make them work for you. And that begins with your attitude and being able determine your success.

I like that. And so let me ask you this, when you look back on your life, who do you think affected your attitude or who was your first attitude coach, if you will, when you look, when you look back on things?

Oh, I have to go all the way back to my college days. Oh, I'm a freshman with San Jose State. I'm on the high jump team. And on my track team are John Carlos, Tommy Smith, and Lee Evans, the 68 winners of the Olympics. So my freshman year, Carlos and Smith are coming around the track. I'm in the high jump pit and I'm working on changing my jumping style. Carlos veers off the track, runs up to me, grab me by my lapel. He's a he's a junior and I'm a freshman. He's about 6'4 about 235-240. I'm 6'9 maybe 210 maybe 210. and I'm wrestling trying to get out of his grip like why are you down here bothering me in my high jump pit when I'm not out there on the track interrupting you so I finally get out of his grip and I step back and I size him up. I look him up and down and I'm thinking, okay, you're a freshman, man. You think you could take this junior? And then it dawned on me, this is a world record holder. He's a junior. You're nobody. Maybe you need to listen to what this guy has to say. So I humbly stepped back a little further and said, Mr. Carlos, what would you like for me to do? He says, you, raised this bar because I had the bar set at six foot. You raised this bar up to seven feet. That's what you practice at every day. If I catch this bar below that at any time, I'll come back down in this pit and beat your butt all over this field. So of course I raised the bar up to seven feet. and all week long, man, I'm kicking this bar because I'm having a problem getting my trail leg over. And I've got to track me coming up Saturday and not understanding how I was going to be able to perform. The one thing that happened on Saturday that I did not have all throughout the week, and it's called adrenaline. So when the bar went up to seven foot, I cleared it. And as quick as I hit the mat, I'm up now looking all over the field for John Carlos to run and tell him, I got it. I understand what you've done. Thank you so much. And it was all about you set your goal high, not so high that you can't reach him, but high enough that you have to work for them. And If you achieve that, then you'll set another goal and continue to do that. All of a sudden, now that becomes a way of life for you. That becomes a way of every day and approaching things and being successful and taking the positive and doing something positive with it and take the negative and flip it to a positive. So Mr. Carlos, I thanked him for that. And whenever I talk to him today, you know, I tell him, Hey, this is one of the stories that I tell all the young kids. what he did for me in doing that. That really impacted and helped me a great deal. And what- excuse me, right after that, the start of my junior year at San Jose, instead of me getting to continue to play ball, I got drafted into the army.

Oh my gosh, I didn't know that.

Yeah, and I did two years of army basketball. And when I came out of the service, was at the same time that my collegiate class was graduating. Now, I was very fortunate that I came into the ABA draft and the NBA draft and was able to continue playing basketball, but had not it been for the attitude thing, 'cause when I came out of the service, talk about mad and angry, they took me away from college. At that time, San Jose State was ranked number three for party schools in the nation. And I'm missing all of this. But I was fortunate. And when I came out, the attitude that I had was, got to do what's best for me. The Pacers had drafted me first. I came out, met with them, and I had found out that the NBA draft is going to be about two, three weeks behind the ABA draft. So I asked the Pacers if they would wait. into the NBA draft and the gentlemen that they were, they said, sure, not a problem.

Wow.

I get drafted by the NBA first round number eight behind Sidney Wicks and Curtis Rowlette.

Oh, my gosh.

I go and meet with the Warriors, tell them the matches contractor Pacers have given me, and I'll probably sign with you guys because California was home for me. They said, give us 24 hours and we'll be back in touch. 36 hours went by. I called my advisor and said, hey, let's get on the plane and let's come to Indy.

I'll be there.

Best decision I made, because we got back-to-back championships.

There you go. So you got back to, you were a rookie on the championship team then?

Yes.

No kidding. Never knew that one. Now let me backtrack just a little bit. When you were a freshman, what year was that at San Jose State? Was that 66 or 68 or?

67.

67. And so John Carlos and those gentlemen were the folks who raised their hands after winning the gold, correct?

Correct. All of history, yes. John Carlos and Tommy Smith and Lee Evans.

All three, and they all ran at San Jose State.

Correct. We had our track team, we won the NC2A back to back.

Wow, no kidding.

And we had so many sprinters that wanted to run the 100 and the 200 and the relay race so that every Friday we'd have to have a runoff just to see who qualified would be able to run tomorrow because we had in the 100 alone we had six sprinters. that were within two, three tenths of the world record.

Oh, my gosh.

I I. That's an example of that. I saw Tommy Smith at that time, the 100 yard dash was. I believe the time was 9-1 Tommy Smith in sweats. They put a harness on him because he was. He was terrible at takeoff and coming out of the blocks. They put this harness on him. and had him take off while the coach was back there holding him back. When they took the harness off, they set him up against Jerry Winters and John Carlos. Tommy ran an 8:9.

Dang.

Wow. In splits.

Wow.

He breaks a world record, but because it's not official, they won't post that. But just seeing that, those kinds of things there. So San Jose was a good start for me. and had not it been for my attitude when I came out of the Army, I don't know if I'd have been able to make it because I had to put that behind me and say, okay, you got that behind you. Let's go on and find out what's in store for me next.

I love it. And I'm going to get there, but a couple of things. Do you remember the day that they stood there with their hands up and what impact did that have on you? Do you remember where you were and how it made you feel about solidarity?

They were in the Mexico for the Olympics that year. And if I'm not mistaken, I did not qualify, so I couldn't go. So I was still at San Jose.

Yeah.

By the time they got back, when I found out what they did, I'm going into the army. Yeah.

Oh, why didn't you were like watching it on TV or something? Like if you saw that.

Exactly.

You know what? And if it made you feel any different or were you, you had to be so proud that you, that those were your team. teammates and what they were standing for and what they accomplished.

Very much so. We had a gentleman by the name of Harry Edwards. And if you look him up, you'll realize Harry was very instrumental in a lot of the black student and athlete movements at that time. And Harry was the one that got all that unification and got everybody all on the same page. Wow. Together with this. So. Tough times.

I like it. Tough times for sure.

And.

With that said, and I just want to hit on the military service. So you were drafted. You were told you're going, correct?

Oh yeah. Yes, exactly. How I got drafted was the San Jose State basketball team. We played the number two ranked school in the nation that year. Santa Clara University right behind UCLA. And we beat them. On that team were twins, the Ogden brothers. And their father was the head of the California draft board.

Oh my God.

Right after the game, pointed his finger right at me and said, my sons aren't going to play against him again. And that's how I got drafted into the army. Because I went in front of the draft board trying to, at that time they had something declared, Hardship for one and only son in the family.

Right.

To keep the name, went in front of the draft board for that. The Oakland Raiders had kept 16 of their first round draft picks out. Wow. They had contacts at the draft board. My school contacted the Oakland Raiders, set up the contact for me. I was supposed to go in there, take the physical, and they find something wrong and I'd be out. walked in and found my contact. He was nervous as a long tail cat in a room full of rocking chairs. They were watching. They were watching and waiting for me. Now, you go in, you take your physical, and when you come out, you get a chance to go in front of this committee. And usually they keep you out of the room for maybe a minute and a half, two minutes while they make it their decision. They sent me out of the room and called me back in there in 30 seconds. And the guy pointed his finger right at me and said, you are going into the service. Now, I come from Sacramento, California down to Oakland to take the physical. 200 of us on buses. 199 of them got a chance to get back on the bus and go to Sacramento. They sent me directly to the airport.

You gotta be kidding me.

I wish I were.

So we call the people that listen to this podcast gappers. And gappers, I want to let you know if you've ever had a day or a hard day like that. Darnell, when we talk about attitude, though, that that's some bad, messed up stuff that happened to you. And we have people listening that feel that, that they're being mistreated or that, that things aren't going their way and that they're being told to do things they don't want to do. How? What was your attitude when, when you knew you got screwed like that? How did you get your mind right to, to Prevail and to continue forward?

Well, now, when you go into the military, everything that you had behind you goes out the window because your drill sergeant becomes your mom, your dad. He becomes everything to you. Now, I had a drill sergeant. had been to Vietnam six times. So that when he came out, he was, we were in boot camp and he's, he's training us and teaching us. And he says, if I have to go to war with any of you guys, you guys aren't coming back. You guys are going to come back in body bags because none of you are listening. And I realized just how serious this is.

Yes.

It'S about being able to stay alive. Now, I was going through boot camp. When boot camp is done, you go through what's called AIT, Advanced infantry training.

Yes.

I was supposed to go to signal corps, become a radio operator at six foot nine. And when you get into combat, the first one they take out is the radio and then your first lieutenant.

Oh my gosh.

So if you're in a combat situation, you have about nine seconds to find cover.

Wow.

Nine seconds to stay alive from the first gunshot that you hear. And I'm thinking about all of this and it's like, I need to pay attention to what this guy is teaching me just in case this happens.

Wow.

And I was fortunate that my army coach, after basic training, My army coach saw my name on the list and he had my orders changed. So I grew up in Presidio, I grew up in San Francisco. And we all know that when you go in the military, you never are going back to your home to be stationed. You're always somewhere else across the planet.

Yes.

I got stationed at Presidio, San Francisco. Oh, because that was my backyard. Yeah, I grew up there. So my two years there, spent two years at Presidio San Francisco, but playing on the all army team and the armed forces team.

I love it.

Got to travel around the world. I've been to 13 third world countries and playing ball representing the country.

Oh my gosh.

Now I had, and you wonder how I was able to keep my attitude in check.

Yes.

Kenny Washington played for UCLA, won the 65, I believe, UCLA NC2A championship. And then Garfield Smith played for Kentucky. Garfield was six foot eight, about 260. He averaged 19 rebounds a game. Those two there took me under their wings. And then after my first year in the service, a new teammate that came to us was we all know who Coach K is. yeah. Coach K was on our team.

No, he would play guard.

Yeah. If you could contact him, he'll tell you about it. I held his firstborn in the palm of my hand.

That is so. And do you get to talk to him much anymore, or is he out of the realm?

Actually, I do. You know, whenever they come in town for the tournaments.

Yes.

Duke has come in while I work for the Pacers, I believe, three or four times each time I was able to get down there and. talk with him, talk to some of his ball players and such.

Oh my gosh, that's so fantastic. So was he any good or was.

He oh, automatic from 12 feet anywhere on the floor. If you gave him a chance to shoot that 12 foot shot, he's gonna knock it down. And he came in our camp telling us about Coach Knight.

Oh really?

Well, Coach Knight would have been like a nursery school. kiddie garden kid compared to our Army coach. Our Army coach was tough. His name was Hal Fisher. Look him up.

I don't know.

He won the all Army 13 times, 11 in a row, and then he won for them in the armed services equally as well. So we'd go out and we played the Russians, Brazil, Yugoslavia. France, whoever we put out there in front of, we'd run them out of the building.

So you were a champion both those years then?

Yes.

And did Coach Fisher teach you how to be a champion or who, you know, what you said to me, I don't think it was, maybe it was on air, maybe it was off of air and you said, hey, yeah, I was never worried about being all pro because I was worried about winning championships. Where do you think that came from that? 'cause that's a real team concept. That's a real team attitude. What drove you to win championships? What made it so seductive for you?

I think being on the back-to-back championships, NC2A at college with Tommy Smith and John Carlos and the guys, that gets into your system. Right. And you want to have that same feeling again because There's a team unity there. Nobody on the outside understands what sacrifices we as a team make. And then you get to be at the very top of the pinnacle. Now you become the target of everybody else wanting to get there. So that now once we got on top, it's like now we've got to fight off all these other places and people that want to be where we are. And that's kind of stuck with me. And so that playing basketball in the army was the same thing. We're just winning ball games and winning different tournaments around the world. So when I came out of the service, I still had that in me. And seeing the Pacers my first year coming here, they had already won a championship.

Yes.

And seeing the nucleus of who they had, Freddie Lewis, Billy Keller, Roger Brown, Mel Daniels and Bob Neterlakie. George McGinnis and I came in as rookies that same year and we became a part of the Nucleus and became the magnificent seven. And we went on and went back to back championships.

And how in the world did we get you and George in the same draft? Was he a second rounder or did they have a one in eight or what happened?

George signed hardship.

Oh, okay.

I believe it was the first year that they started doing hardship. So George came from IU and signed with the Pacers out of hardship. And the Pacers first draft pick didn't occur till the second round and that's when I was chosen.

I'll be doggone.

So George and I were the two rookies that signed no cut contracts and we were able to be on the team with Mel and the guys. what a heaven it was.

I, I know it was. Now we're going to get to the Pacers, but I always like to, and I'm going to just dig in for one more question about your history, because it's important. I believe attitude is always given to us. Most people will say from our parents, my mother and my father. But, but oftentimes we find that real talent and real attitude skips a generation. And we always like to ask if If you want to, if the good stories about mom and dad, you can tell us that. But did you know any of your four grandparents? And did you have a special relationship with one that impacted your attitude when you think about your grandparents?

It would be my grandmother on my mom's side. She was very quiet, very stoic. But when she spoke, it was like EF Hutton. talking. Everybody listened. And you didn't question her at all because she was 99 and 910 of the time. She was correct and right. Right. My grandmother gave me a great deal of that. But my dad and my mom both were very work hard workers. My dad owned a chrome plating company in San Francisco.

Wow.

Him and his brother and He also had a second job where he worked for United Airlines. And he did this for 32 years. Really? He had two jobs. And then my mom worked for the United States government. So that both of them, with their work ethic and how they went and approached every day, some of that fell on me and my sister. And I think that was part of my being able to get out there and fascinating.

Fast. So is you and your sister just you two growing up then?

Yep.

I'll be dad gone. That's cool. I appreciate that. That story. Your, your grandma, though, didn't, she didn't talk a lot. What, what was her backstory? Where did she come from? Did she work? What was her story?

She was from, my grandmother was from Oklahoma. Oh, and when the, back in her day, when they burned down Oklahoma, at Tulsa and all of that. She was there for that.

Wow.

After that occurred, moved out to Los Angeles, California, where I was born.

Sure.

Yeah. And was very instrumental in World War II. She worked for McDonald Douglas.

Wow.

Doing the rivets on the airplane. Actually, I even have her tools from back then. No, you gave me all of those tools. when she worked on the airplanes back then. So that work was a part of my background and my family.

Yeah, that's good hard work. All right, so now let's get to the fun, fun stuff. And we'll do a little of this when we talk about when we finish with our knowledge through the decades segment. But you arrive in Indianapolis. You knew that you arrive on a championship team. I can't imagine two better rookies ever coming on the Pacers ever. And what was the attitude there when, when you were brand new, you're walking into a championship team. What was your attitude? What was maybe some of the attitude of the fellas that you were walking into?

Well, for athletes, you know, when you have veterans on a team and they've got new rookies coming in, your veteran is always thinking here, this kid is coming in here. He wants my playing time. He's gonna try to take some of my money that I have coming. So they're going to give you a hard time until they understand and figure out where you're going to fit with the team. Now, George and I coming in, both of us, different style players. Yes. I like the defense, blocking shots and doing that. And George is more offense structured. So we both fit in pretty well with the franchise at that time and were able to really solidify some of the weaker areas that the team may have had out there on the floor. And I say that in that when I got out there on the floor as a rookie, Bobby Slick Leonard didn't realize how high I could jump. I love to block shots. So he put me in a ball game out there one night when Mel was on the floor, out there on the floor, and Going after this guy's shot, I ran into Mel and Mel thought he was going to be able to block the guy's shot. So he told me, Mel told me after knocking him out of the way and neither one of us succeeding, he says, Rook, this paint, the three second area, this is my office, this is my house. You need to stay away because when it comes in here, I got it and I'm going to run things. I said, okay. So a couple of plays later, another shot is going up. Mel goes up to block this guy's shot and he doesn't get it. I come up behind him and I still block the guy's shot. And Mel turns around and looks at me and it's like, you got it like that. Come on in here, Rook. I need to teach you how to defend the paint. And so I started working with him on how to defend the pain. And Mel was very, very highly successful in teaching me how to be able to defend the bigger centers like Arthur Gilmore, guys that I gave up 40 and 50 pounds to.

Yeah.

And he taught me how to, how I the best to defend those guys.

And so I got asked, right? What, was there a secret? Was it positioning? Was it feet? Was it. What, what, what was the lesson?

Well, For me, knowing how I could jump and like I could stand flat footed and jump four inches over the square. Yeah. Without a step. Right. So it gave me a step and a chance to move. There's no telling how high I'm going to jump because on my good days, on my good day, I might put the rim right in the center of my chest and dunk the ball all the way up to my armpit. Right. Every day at practice, I kick the bottom of the backboard and land on my feet. On my best day, I've kicked the rim with my foot.

Oh, my mercy.

And the rim is 10 feet high. So I was able to bring my high jumping skills to the basketball court. But in order for me to be successful, I could not bang with these guys in terms of weight. So I had to have that distance. But if you gave me that distance and a step, yes. I turned around to take the shot, I had a chance to get to it.

Now, my brother vividly remembers this and I'm sure you have to remember. We grew up at Billy Keller Sports Camp at Marion University and he would have you come in and dunk it for us and we'd go crazy. But my brother said, ask him, he said that they put a quarter on top of the backboard and you ran, jumped and knocked it off the top of the backboard. Is that true?

That not quite my rookie year.

Uh-huh.

Put a hundred dollar bill on top of the backboard. I put it in my pocket. The next year Bobby Slick Leonard starts the story. If you put a quarter on top of the backboard, I jump up, take the quarter down and leave two dimes and a nickel. Now that's helicopter time there. That's really hanging around because to get two dimes and a nickel on top of the backboard.

Yeah, it ain't easy.

Taking a quarter down. Oh.

But, but they did put a hundred dollar bill on top and you snagged it.

Put that in my pocket. No.

Who did that? Slick?

I don't know who put that dollar, that hundred dollar bill up there, but everybody was saying, oh, you know, for ten dollars or a dollar. And I kept telling them, hey, if you're gonna jump that high, you got to get paid. I feel you right now to the to this day, because of all of that high jumping, I've got four herniated discs.

Right, right.

So from all of that jumping and such, so it's been great. It was fun while it happened, but I'm starting to pay the piper a little bit now so that I don't jump whenever I've gone and do a camp now and the kids, oh, Dr. Dunk, please give us a dunk. And it's like, no, because I'll be on a crutch for the next two weeks and it keeps me off the golf course.

Oh, yeah. You can't do that. I know you want to play. I may have to get you out for 18. I'm having too much fun with you today.

Okay, actually, the other Camp I used to go to. Remember Taylor University?

Well, of course. Yes.

I did a couple of camps up there, and I always started my camps off with. I get to. To get the kids attention, you have to have a gimmick.

Yes.

I'd start my camp off with, I want you guys to all watch this. And I'd run up and kick the bottom of the backboard and land on my feet.

That's crazy.

All the kids' mouths would fall open. I'd tell all the coaches, you guys can go drink coffee or whatever it is you do. I've got them now for the next hour or so. And the coaches would all leave. They'd all leave out of one door and sneak back in the back door and you could hear them whisper, Did you see what he just did? He kicked the bottom of the backboard with his foot and landed on his feet. We need to hear what this guy's going to tell these kids. And that's how I did my camp. Now, in all the years of my doing that, I'd never taken a snapshot. But just two weeks ago, I got a text message from Mark Monteith.

Oh my gosh.

And Mark Monteith had one of his followers found the snapshot of it and he sent that to me. and it's showing me kicking the bottom of the backboard. I'm ducking my head down while I'm trying to get that leg up there to kick the bottom of that backboard and land on my feet. And it was like all those years. So I like to get that blown.

Up and make that into a poster. Yeah, I was gonna say, you gotta post that on social media. We'd, people would love to see that.

I will send it to you and I'll let you do your thing with it because I don't know how to.

Do that stuff on social. Okay, I got, well, we'll put it in. We, we will, we create, what's called a blog for, hold on, looks like, you're close there. Do you see that?

Yeah, that's it. That's it right there.

Way to go, Jason. That's my producer. I got the best producer in the business. Look at it.

He found it. That's the snapshot right there. Man, look at your university. It was about 175 kids there that day.

Oh, my gosh. Look at your head. Your head's all the way up there, too. That's just crazy. Now, I forget I was getting ready to ask you. Let's talk about the attitude of a championship. basketball team. Well, first, I know what I want to ask you. Slick Leonard, obviously, legend, certainly had a ton of attitude. The good works he's done are well known. But when you think of Slick, what was his attitude and what attitude lesson did he teach you?

Slick was hard-nosed. and his thing was you win and lose games at practice. You don't win and lose games out there during the ball game. When we went to practice, everybody was the same. Didn't matter whether you were Roger Brown, Mel Daniels, or whoever the star was at that time, everybody had to go through the same rule. Now, what you respected about Slick was you're having a bad time, maybe a couple of ball games that are real bad, and the media is all over you. Slick would not allow the media to beat you up. So that when you were having a tough time, he would talk to the media. Slick didn't allow anybody from the outside to come and get us. But when it came time for us to toe the line, he would really make us toe the line. And he had his ways of doing it. So that when a ball game started, he didn't want you out there shaking hands with the opponent before the jump ball and tip off. He didn't care for any of that. Don't be out there shaking their hands and going through all of that. that's your enemy. You're out there to beat him. And you go out there and play hard, ball game is over, and there you are, you know, giving the guys high fives or whatever. He hated all of that. He just hard-nosed and wanted to win. But he wanted you to understand that every time you beat an opponent, how you left the court, you wanted to be in that opponent's mind so that the next time you faced them again, Right. They were thinking about the last time how badly you beat them. So that really worked for us.

I see.

A great deal. A great deal. And Slick's other thing was we were a team and a family so that we did more things off the court together. Right. As well as we did on the court. So we had to make appearances as a team. Everybody had to be there. Everybody had to be on time. And if you were late, you got fined for it. Or you got some extra work out there on the basketball court. So being on time, being punctual was very important. And Slick really stressed to us about being the ambassador of basketball for the state of Indiana.

I love it.

So that we had to carry and conduct ourselves as gentlemen, and we would get positive letters from all over the country about how we conducted ourselves during travel, et cetera, et cetera. And that was very important. And all of these things really started to mold us together as a family to the point where you could tell when a guy came in the locker room to get ready for a ball game, oh, so and so is not feeling too good today. We're gonna have to take up the slack. Everyone one of the starters and your star player and he's not feeling it, somebody else's turn. And we shared the basketball so that when Roger Brown was out there or Mel or Freddie or even George, if they weren't having a great night, whoever had the hot hand, the ball went to that individual. So, you know, you had those nights where, hey, you could shoot it in the ocean. You just couldn't miss. Right. And a player who was willing to go through you.

Yeah, that's so cool. What two questions? Number one, you mentioned the star player and you had a lot of them. I'm just curious, and this is just from your perspective, who is the best player, who is the best pacer besides you, of course, that was on those teams. And what pacer taught you the most about attitude in life?

Best pacer on that team for myself. would be Roger Brown.

By far.

Roger, I played Roger every day after practice for two years, one-on-one and in that two years, I only beat him twice. So that I knew if I learned to get real good at being, because Roger would be considered in top best three forwards in the ABA during that time.

Yeah.

I knew if my defense got strong and I could stop him, then the opponent were going to give me that much of a problem, just depending on who the opponent was. And some of the best one-on-one basketball that you want to see is Roger Brown going against Willie Wise. Willie Wise and I went to high school together in San Francisco. Willie Wise taught me how to dunk the basketball so that when I met Willie Wise, knowing that I've been playing against Roger, now I've got a chance. of possibly stopping Willie. You're never gonna stop Willie Wise because you're never gonna stop of Roger Brown. Right. But contain them a little bit. Don't allow them to get that natural average that they normally get.

Now, gappers, if you heard what Darnell said, which I'm sure you did, how does this apply to your life? Well, what, what, what Darnell just taught us is that he always found someone better and he forced himself to compete against that better person. You are who you around and you are who you compete with and you become how you get from who you are to who you want to become is find people who you want to become like. Proximity is power and to be with them and compete against them and that will raise your standard. What a beautiful attitude lesson you just gave there. That's great. So the second part of the question is what Pacer impacted your attitude the most that you played with that either shaped, impacted, or taught you an attitude lesson that meant everything for you.

My favorite pacer, Billy Killer.

Oh, all right. No kidding.

Billy was always on time for any appearances. If Billy and I had to make an appearance, I knew I wasn't going to have to wait. Let's say an appearance started at 11 o'clock.

Mm-.

And you had some of the other guys that were going to be there. You get a guy coming in five after or ten after. Well, the appearance would not begin until everybody got there. So now you're eating up into your own personal time, waiting on your teammates. Right. But whenever Billy and I had to show up together, he was always on time. Very, very, what's the word? he loved to be engaged with the fans. So Billy was just talking all the time. He knew how to draw the fans in. And I watched that and learned a great deal from that because I was a wallflower when I came here.

Right.

Very quiet, stood up against the wall all the time. But Billy showed me a little bit on how to do that. And I think I carried a little bit of that with me.

That's wonderful. What a, what a, what a cool, cool answer. And of course, you know, he ended up coaching my sister at rebuff. Him and my dad became friends. That's how, that's how he Rebuff coaching girls basketball was we all went to his camp and then dad recruited him to coach. So, okay, I was able to sell his house and we've stayed in touch with him, which is, which is really kind of cool. So let's real quick. Dr. J. Dr. Dunk was Dr. Dunk before Dr. J or was it simultaneous? You know, because he's Dr. J. Yeah.

Dr. J was before me. Actually, if I'm not mistaken, Julius was at the University of Massachusetts. I believe that's where they tagged him with that name. I had not met him. We tried out for the Pan Am Games at the Olympic training camp. It was the first time I saw Julius and I believe he had that name there. After our rookie years starting here in the league, we were in New York playing the Nets and Julius was down on one end throwing down these tremendous dunks during warm up and I'm down on the other end doing the same thing. and during the ball game, both of us had very, very good, tremendous dunks throughout the game. And when the game was over, the New York Press said, sorry, Dr. J, there's a new doctor in the house.

Are you kidding?

His name is Dr. Dunk. And that's how I got that name. And it came all the way from New York and followed me back here and has been with me ever since that.

Did you ever just dunk on Dr. J? Did you ever get him like that?

Oh, yeah. We dunked on each other all the time. Did you? Because at Pan Am training camp. This is the first time I've seen a guy I jumped higher than Julius, which could take off from the foul line.

Right.

I'm standing on the foul line. He's coming down in a fast break. And all of a sudden I see his hips go by my head. And I'm thinking, oh, he's already in the air. So I look back and sure enough, he's gliding all the way to the rim. He throws it down. and I tell him right then, when this game is over and practice is over, you can come out here and show me how to do this, because I know I can do this. And after three tries, I was taken off from the foul line myself. So we had a lot of dunks all the time against one another, and very, very similar in style of play, height, body build and such, and taught him how to do his afro.

You taught him how to do his afro.

I taught him how to do his afro.

You got... Now tell me why did you get your afro so big? Was there a statement you made? Did it look pretty? Is it just who you were? Or what was... It was certainly a signature and people loved it. So what was that all about?

That was about being in the army. When I came out of the service, you know, when you're in the military, they make you wear that real close through cut. And I hated that. And when I came out of the service, there was a, a young lady by the name of Angela Davis, an activist. And I saw her afro, and afros were starting to come out during that time because of the movement around the country.

Yes.

Student movements around the country. And I said, that's exactly what I'm doing right there. I love that hair. so, of course, I started growing the afro out. My second year with the team, slick calls me in after practice. Yes, she is. So he calls me in after practice and says, hey, man, I want you to get a haircut. And I'm like, oh, what, man? You know, this is my, this is my statement. This is how I represent my cultural and stuff, right? So I go to the barber shop. I have the barber just barely, just barely nip the ends off just to even it up. And I come into practice the next day and I packed it way, way down. I thought I had it really, really nice and close and tight. And slick walks up to me and there's a strand sticking out and he sees that Strand and he grabs it and he starts to pull, pull. pull. 13 and a half inches later. Oh, my mercy. In the basketball. And he's out there. He says, that'll cost you 300. If you don't get it cut this time, I'll suspend you indefinitely. So haircut cost me 15. The fine cost me 300, which is a lot of money back then. Yeah. and having to go back to the barber again the next time, the next night. And I went to the barber, take it all off. And he took it almost down to like I wore it in the service. I'm going to practice the next day. He's like, oh, what are you doing? I didn't want for you to take it all off. And I'm like, you got guys missing free throws because their hair is too long in their face. Right. You know for a fact I'm combing my hair seven to nine times a day just to keep you from having me go through this. Because it wasn't wild. It was very, very well maintained.

Yes.

He, I looked at him and told him, if you need to trade me, suspend me or whatever it is, I'm not getting another haircut. And then I was able to really grow it out and get it the way I want. Julius came into town one day, took him over to the house, got him a hair dryer like the ladies use for a pick. You know, at that time, they had those afro combs, and it's like, no, we're not using that. You go and get what's called an angel food cake cutter. Ask the ladies about it. They'll tell you about it. They've got one with a six inch tooth and another one with almost seven and a half inch tooth.

Oh, my gosh.

I got the big one and turn that heat on the hair and start pulling it on out. and once you get it out to the size that you want it, go to the barber and have him even it up and shape it the way you want. And.

And then the. The trademark was done then, huh? That had it.

That. And.

And slick didn't give you any more about it.

No, not about the hair. As long as I've run down the floor and it would all flow back. And when I come to stop to come right back into that afro shape. so that picture you just showed of Angela?

Yes.

That's what I was going for.

I like it.

I went down the floor. It would all move and go back behind my head. Yeah, that picture there, it would all move and go back behind my head. But when I stopped running, it'd come right back into that ball.

Oh, my gosh. That's so good. I'm gonna give a. Let's just go League-wide the most Fierce player you ever played against, whether it's ABA, NBA. who maybe scared you or intimidated you or had an attitude that you completely respected. Who comes to your mind when you think of that?

That picture you got right there? Yeah. That's Willie Wise.

That's Willie Wise you're dunking on?

Yes. That's the guy that terrified me the most.

Did he?

Yeah. Oh, he put me in foul trouble as a rookie. He kept me and kept me on the bench.

Did he?

Yeah, he was just very clever and that had not had been for me working against Roger, I probably wouldn't have got to play against Willie very much because he'd had me fouled out in the first quarter.

Now, did you meet Willie? You met him in San Francisco though. You had known him for a minute, right?

Yeah, I had known him.

And was he a big brother complex to you? Or did you guys know each other in high school or his kids or?

We met on the high school team. at Balboa High School in San Francisco and Willie was a senior when I was a freshman.

Ah, there you go.

And Willie was our starting center. He was only about 6'5 and I was probably 6'6'7 but just a string bean. But Willie had the ball game back then even in high school.

Yeah.

And watching him and seeing how successful he was, It was really an honor to make it to the league. And then here it is. I'm coming up against one of my former teammates and then having to play against him and watching him just eat me alive. It was like really hard to take from time to time.

I love it. We were with Darnell Hillman, NBA and ABA legend, and he has been dropping some fantastic bombs about hard work. about embracing your competition, about growing your attitude and bridging the gap just as he did throughout his life. So we're going to finish our interview with a little thing we do. It's all kind of like a game, but not really called knowledge through the decades. And I want to walk through your life. And I'm going to ask you, hopefully you can remember at each decade's turn what the attitude lesson is that you got. so I know this was a minute ago, but do you remember being 10? Do you remember being 10? Third or fourth?

Yeah, kind of a little bit.

Third or fourth grade. Sometimes it's a teacher. You might remember your third or fourth grade teacher, but do you remember the attitude lesson young Darnell Hillman learned at 10 years old when you were in fourth, fifth grade?

Yes. I was living in San Francisco in the ghetto up in Hunters Point. I was taller than all of my teachers at that time.

And.

These teachers always at that time could have contact with your parents in terms of how you're behaving or not, and what you were doing in school. And my mom just ruled with an iron fist. And it's like, oh, boy, I don't want my mom ever getting a bad story on me because I'd get home and she'd just tell you, go in that room, I'll be in there in a minute.

Uh-oh.

And then wait till your father gets home. It's like, oh no, she's gonna tell dad too. So mom was the ruler of the house and really a stickler about discipline, structure, the whole works there. And I followed a great deal of what she said during that time.

So fear would be the attitude lesson at 10.

Yeah, at that time.

Now, my guess would be 20 if I heard you correct, you were probably on your way into the army and we may be hit on it, but do you remember where you were when you turned 20 and what was the attitude lesson for you at 20 that you learned?

I don't know if it was a lesson, but I'm on a bus. We're in Santa Rosa, California. We just got done with practice. Coach K is on the bus and he's reading the newspaper and he says, Hey, Darnell, you've been drafted. And I'm like, what are you talking about, man? I'm already sitting here on the bus doing time for the man. It can't draft me again. And that entire bus fell out laughing. He said, no, you've been drafted by the ABA.

Oh my God, what a great story.

And yeah, that's when I found out and I thought about that and it was like the ABA. and when I was in Presidio, the Oakland Oaks, right, right across from us. And I wasn't following any of that at that time. So I had very little knowledge about who the ABA was. I love it. And then I finally was a. Got the phone call from the Pacers office to have me come out and then present me with a contract offer.

Do you remember how much that contract was?

My first contract, I believe it was right at 296,000. Well, that's not bad considering, yeah, for that time. Yeah, that was, which for me, I had no idea because I didn't know what any of the players- yeah, but.

296, I bet you had some fun after you got that check, that first check.

Oh, yeah. I was able to buy my mom a car, bought myself a new car, got married, drove out here to, from California to Indiana and had a real, real Awakening to what the winter was about and how you live in snow.

Yeah, not good.

The.

Well, the bottom line is, certainly we had a lot of people selling tickets, but anybody listening to this, it's a pacer fan. I'll guarantee you they bought those tickets.

They.

They were smart to invest in you. because we wanted to just see you dunk. That's what it was all about for us. Let's go to 30 years old. Do you remember being 30? Were you still playing? Was there an attitude lesson or an attitude moment when you were 30 that.

Yeah, just starting to wind down toward the end of my career. I've been moved from. Let's see, I left here and I went to the New York Nets, Denver Nuggets. Kansas City Kings, Golden State Warriors, all four years. Wow. I was looking at, well, let me get to year number 10 and I'm out of here. The game was changing. I was no longer with my favorite teammates, Mel and Roger and those guys there. So being moved around, it's like, oh, I'll get one or two more years here and get on out of the game. I had learned that toward the end of your career, boy, if you're still not putting out the numbers that they want and, like, you get that red slip in your locker, you go to your locker, and there's that red slip. It's like, oh, no. What do you mean? You're cutting. You're letting me go. I'm thinking that I'll. I'll retire at the end of this year, but now you guys want me out early. it's like, well, that was a. Again, that was an attitude I had to adjust to. Yeah. And being positive about it because I wanted to play a little longer, and they felt like I didn't give them what they wanted. And I was no longer willing to travel all over the country trying just to. To make it with the team. Yeah. Yeah. So nobody wanted me. All right, it's time to step on the way.

There we go.

I retired, went to California, I was out there for about 13-14 years, and I woke up one day and decided that I wanted a white Christmas. Oh, really? And I knew exactly where to get it. I loaded up my van in 1995 and I came back here, actually, I came into town on the day of the 500 race. oh, my God. Everybody was at the track. Came right into town, unloaded my van in 95. Been here since.

And in the same house and all that.

No, no, I had different place and everything. Because the house I had while I played here, I'd sold that and moved out to California.

Nice. All right, let's go to 40. You've been out of. You've been out of basketball for 10 years. Talk to me a little bit about your attitude at 40. And as you think about it, talk to those people that have been displaced and they're 10 years into their retirement. What's the attitude lesson for them at 40?

Well, at that time, now I'm working for the Pacers as director of camps and clinics and alumni relations.

Oh, nice. That's right.

So that when I first came here, I came in as director of community relations. but I had no computer skills because of size of my hand. Computer was just not going to work for them. The keyboards just do not address my hands in a proper way so that I became a spokesperson going out, talking to the kids out in school, talking to different teams, things of that nature, and keeping our retired players that we had in the area, keeping them involved in our community initiatives. So that really switched and changed how I approach things. Now it was about learning about the state of Indiana and how they grow basketball here. And, you know, the first time I drove into this place, every other driveway had a basketball hoop in it. And I'm like, am I in America? Where is this at? There's a basketball hoop at every other driveway. And then hearing about the, seeing the kids and how much history. they knew about the athletes. I'd never seen that in any other state, in any other kind of way. These kids understood and knew the history of the game. They could tell you what your stats were better than you could. So that at 40, now I'm starting to share and give back to some of these kids that I'm talking with, talking about their attitude, how you approach every day, things that you need to work at. and then when getting to teach my camps, when I got to teach the camps to the kids, my army kicked back in for me.

Oh, I bet.

Yeah. It's like coming to boot camp when you come to my camp. These kids. These kids walk in and first shot they take is that three pointer. -huh I don't care how big he is, how small he is. Everybody's trying to take that three pointer. And I'm telling the kids, you're not gonna be playing basketball here. you're going to learn how to play basketball. We're going to teach you how to play basketball here. Five fundamentals. Dribble, shoot, play defense, rebound, and run the floor. Handle the ball. And I had three rules. When you come on my court, you got a t-shirt everybody had to look like a team. So all shirts had to be tucked in.

I love it.

You, these kids have these shorts that have pockets in them. They're standing around with their hands in their pockets. So I've asked the kids, Hey, have you ever seen a pro player out there with his hands in his pocket? No, those pants do not have pockets. So do not put your hands in your pockets while you're in my practice, because a loose ball comes over you, hits you in the face. Now you're upset with whoever had Pass that ball or wherever the ball came from. Had your hands been free, you could have caught it, deflected it, or whatever. And the last thing was sitting down on the floor. Kids all wanted to sit like little Indians, crisscross legs. We're gonna sit like athletes. Now, any of those three rules broken, I'd stop the entire practice. Everybody gets down in the push-up position.

At it, boy.

You stay there till I get tired, and I'm not getting down there. So of course you saw the kids, those arch backs that have the butts up in the air or the hips down on the floor. And I would tell them when everybody gets a flat back, we get a chance to get up. Why I taught them this rule, one of the most important rules in any sport that you're playing with is you've got to be able to communicate with your teammates. So that when one of those three things were broken, now they're starting to run to each other. Get your hands out your pocket. You know, he's gonna make us get down in the push-up don't cross your legs, man. I don't want to be doing any push-up or push-up position. I didn't make them do push-up they just stayed there.

Yeah.

That flat back position. Yeah. Those are build up the muscles and everything. And once they started doing that, they're learning how to police themselves and communicate with each other. Yeah. the start of a team.

Man, that is so cool. And I can just tell you lit up. You lit up like a Christmas tree talking about that. I knew, I know you loved it.

Well, yeah, I did because I would, some of my coaches would not say anything, but wherever the kids were, and I tell them I, this was the eye, and I'll be looking all day long. I put the eye on them. And if I caught one, everybody went down. Come on, coaches. I know you guys are catching them.

Oh, my God.

Then I get a coach and say, hey, coach, I got one down here. And I run down there. Who we got? What's he done? You come here, stand with me, young man. Oh, and everybody else gets down in push-up position. But they're all looking at who broke the rule so that when he got back in with his teammates and such, they're gonna watch him.

Yeah, they're gonna learn.

He doesn't break the rules.

All right, now, how about I'll let you do 50 or 60. You can pick whichever decade. There you are with the kids right there, buddy. How fun is that? Anything happen at 50 or 60 that you want to share with us attitude wise?

About 54. I think was the last time I dunked a basketball. When Mel Daniels was alive, we'd go out once a year, walk into a practices court, grabbed the ball, jump up to hand and dunk it.

Nice.

I went up that at that age and tried to do that two hand dunk and that ball. I thought artist Gilmore caught my dunk and threw me out of bounds. Cause it pulled me right back on the floor. And I said, well, you know what? The elevator is not going to that floor anymore. And we stopped going up there.

How about that? And then you're, how old are you?

75. you're doing well, buddy.

Do you remember turning 70? And what was your thoughts, your attitude or your mind? Mind process when you hit 70?

Well, you know, at 40, they. That. That upward climb of the airplane. Yeah. It's turning the plane off a little bit, not evened out, but by the time I hit 70, it's at a flat plane and it's only got one direction to go, and that's going to be going down from. so it's been it's been a challenge. I've been blessed with being able to take care of myself because I look at some of my former teammates and the things that they're struggling with health wise. And I know I've been blessed to be able to still perform at this age. I love it.

Well, we're with Darnell Hillman, former NBA legend. He is also on the board of directors for Atlanta Sports. And if you guys been listening to our podcast, you know Atlanta Sports is one of the benefactors of the Droppy Dimes Foundation, helping ABA players. There's 141 of them left with the finances of living, of health, and of helping just the folks that you've talked about. So, Darnell, so cool that you are doing that for your people. We're going to go ahead and wrap this up. We have listeners all over the world. We have listeners right now who are maybe depressed, maybe they're down, maybe they're in broken in a, broken down in a car. Maybe they're walking on a beach. And we always want our guests. And, and you've been so good, Darnell, you've, you've given us so many bombs, so many truths, so many things to think about for our listeners, our gappers, to reflect upon in themselves, to help them bridge the gap from who they are to who they want to become. But what we always want to do is just give you one. last message of hope for that. For the people that are listening to you today. What is your message of hope for those who need it today?

Okay, I don't know. Can you hear that?

I can hear you.

Okay, it's knock on wood. Chance favors a prepared mind. Chance favors a prepared mind. If you're prepared when the knock of opportunity comes. you're the chosen one, you get to step through the door and continue on. Now, of course, there's always a list of people being selected from. And when that one person is pulled out, those that are left behind, their attitude, oh, I'm better than this. Oh, I could, I should have been the one doing this and that. It's like, well, you weren't quite prepared because you didn't get the knock. and once you change that attitude, now when the knock comes, you get a chance to walk through the door. And if the knock doesn't come, now what are you going to do to improve and better yourself so that you get a shot at the opportunity when the knocks on your door?

I love it. I love it. Chance favors the prepared mind. Haven't heard that one. That is so awesome. Darnell Hillman. you are fantastic. Thank you for giving to us. Thank you for giving to our audience. I'm ready to go out, play some hoop, and take on the world. So, Darnell Hillman, thank you so much for being on the Get Attitude podcast.

It's been a pleasure and thanks for having me.