P.J. Fleck: A Coach’s Never-Give-Up Approach To Life

In a world full of turmoil, despair, and darkness, you need to carry the light. Season three of the Get Attitude Podcast is where we will ignite your mind, your heart, and your attitude. And welcome to the Gap, the Get Attitude Podcast. It is my honor to introduce you to our guest today, but first, please remember to like our podcast. Please subscribe. Follow us if you're listening to this. Share it wherever you find it. Today we have, in my opinion, one of the best Division 1 head coaches in America. Somebody that has inspired, well, hell, a nation has inspired campuses. He is Mr. Head Coach. P.J. fleck, seventh year head coach of the Minnesota Golden Gophers. Has a 44 and 27 record at Minnesota, 74 and 49 overall. 2019 Big Ten Coach of the Year, Dodd Trophy finalist. 2019 Bear Bryant Award finalist. 2019 AFCA National Coach of the Year finalist. He's got more and more and more awards, but I know he's not here to talk about the awards. He is here literally, for you. I dropped off a book. I was speaking up in Minnesota. He. He picked it up and said, hey, I get what you guys are doing at the Get Attitude Podcast. And so, ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, you are getting. Strap yourself and get ready to go. Jason, you gonna play an intro for PJ real quick? Here we go. We're gonna give you a little taste before we bring him up.

Let's go. Lock in. Mentally enact perfection. I wanna see refuse and lose from everybody. Every single guy. High energy, high intensity. Get the most out of practice you can. Everybody got it. Let's go. Have some fun. Wednesday night, softball league. Thursday night. Some type of cards in the neighborhood. Got a mix of golf in there, too. That's weekends. That'd be great. Friday, Saturday, Sunday. You know what I mean? Remember when you were a kid, used to go for ice cream?

All right, pj. Coach Fleck, welcome to the Get Attitude Podcast.

Hey, thanks for having us on, Glenn. We really appreciate it, man. Really, really honored to be here.

I love it. Well, I just, you know, you can hear the intensity and. And having been on the football field for 25 years, people go, man, is that how you guys go into work? Is that how you show up for work? And one of my biggest things that I tell our audiences is how you show up matters. And how are you showing up to work? You think about the men and women going into offices and stuff. They ain't showing up like you're showing up. So it is a different arena, different environment. But let's just go ahead and start with a few easy ones for you. Coach, tell me, if you could, your definition of attitude. And what. How does attitude manifest itself with the teams that you're coaching?

Yeah, simple. We actually define attitude as directed energy. That's all it is. Right. And energy comes from your purpose and your passion colliding. And a lot of us, we're going to kill a lot of birds with one stone here, is that we always talk about, you know, you either have to or want to, but if you can get your have to and want to to match, that's when magic happens. That's when people actually go to where they actually say they want to be. As you know this, Glenn, as a coach, the origin of the word coach is stage coach. Take important people for where they are to where they dream of being. That's what I do on a daily basis. That's not always the easiest process. That's not always the glorious process. That's not always the. The road most traveled. A lot of times it's not even paved. You've got to go do that your own way. But the big key to that is your way. You gotta be yourself. And I think that there's so many people who have to go to work, they don't want to go to work, and they look at it from a different perspective. They're not directing their energy into the things that make them have this incredible purpose and this incredible passion. And they don't direct their energy enough. And so that's what we're looking for when we're bringing players in, when we're developing them, when I'm developing my staff, when you're developing a community, to really like what you do as a football program, even if they don't even like football. So it takes a lot of energy and a lot of directed energy, this attitude, to make that happen. That's for sure.

All right, so, coach, here's what I want to know and what most leaders probably want to know. When you feel that attitude alignment is not aligned at your team, or if you feel that the morale of your team is going in the wrong direction, or what is it that you do? What is your path? What is your formula to reverse that trend?

One, transparency and communication. You have to know somebody's expectation, and you have to know what is needed to fulfill that expectation. And you have to know what it looks like. A lot of times, the lack of communication between two human beings creates this negative void. And every time you're not communicating, it's assumed there's something negative, something in our brain assumes we're doing something wrong. And if you let that just continue to fester, fester, fester, that's when things blow up. We have a team meeting every single day, communicate with our team every single day of what the expectation is for that day. We divide our season into quarters just like you would a game from winter conditioning to spring practice to summer workouts to the season. And we all have objectives for that quarter as a team and as an individual player. Meetings on an individual basis and a pop in basis. I do not have a secretary. I do not have somebody you have to make an appointment with. You can walk into my office at any moment. It's all about the players development period. Academically, athletically, socially and spiritually. Nothing comes before the players, their needs, their wants, their aspirations is why we all have a job. And that hopefully they feel that constantly. And you know, we're all up in their business. So I think that's part of it. But it's, it's that transparency every day. And my job is to continue to push them and motivate them. But also they should be pretty highly motivated on their own. Your dreams, hopes and aspirations should motivate you more than they motivate me or we're not going to be on the same page. So truly my job is to take people from where they are to where they say they want to be. Not where I want them, where they say they want to be. But 90% of the things we say we want, we actually get or we have an opportunity to go get, except we don't know what to do with it when we get it, or we don't know who to get ourselves around to go there.

I love it.

I think that's a shame. And if people could take advantage of that, that's how you wake up one day. You're like, how the hell did I get here? This is unbelievable. And that's there should be another person inside this room being the head coach of Minnesota. But somebody quit along the way. They stopped, they had a bad attitude. I just passed them along the way. And somehow when my opportunity came, I was ready for it.

I love it.

That's how I would describe that.

That's awesome. So again, so in line with what we're doing. That's why I knew this would be great to have you. Because, you know, we've done 129 episodes based on attitude. And so, ladies and gentlemen, if you're listening to this for the first time or just new, understand that we have some of the greatest authors, some of the greatest speakers, some of the greatest coaches, some of the greatest athletes that have ever walked this planet. We have one with us today. There's a whole library for you on how to get the right attitude. Let me ask you this, because I was a position coach. Right. And so talk to me about. And you know, I see a lot of similarities in business, too. You got the head coach, then you got your position coaches.

And I.

And I know that you love. You got to love your position coaches or you wouldn't be able to do what you do. But, you know, there is that layer between you and the kids. And then your position coaches, how. What's your philosophy with the position coaches? What's their role and responsibility to the kids? Is it different than yours? How do you set that structure up to build continuity from player through the position coach to you?

Well, just like as a coach does a player, my job is to coach the coaches and get the coaches to where they say they dream of too.

Right.

My dream has come true. I'm not saying I don't have more dreams. I have plenty of dreams. But everything I wrote down on my bucket list, which I actually have still for from high school by 36, I accomplished all of it. All of it. Wow. And it's my job to be able to put those men and women in a position to do the exact same thing. It's not to hoard your people. It's about to create, develop, and then get them to go do what they want to do, too.

Yeah.

And I have a. There's a lot of guys who have been with me for my entire time. 11 years being head coach. And then there's some that just rotate every single year depending on their hopes, dreams and aspirations. My job to get them there. But as a team, I always say that I'm the dad. I'm the dad of the family. I'm not their dad. I'll never be their dad, nor do I want to be their dad. I'm their coach. There's a big difference between your dad and your coach. But I'm the dad of a family. Our coaches are like the uncles right now. The dad stays, the dad's your dad. The uncles, they might live next door for a long time until uncle gets another job, then uncle's going to leave.

But.

But sometimes people get so attached to the position coach that they don't really like the head coach or have a relationship with the head coach. So when the uncle leaves and goes takes another job somewhere else, they don't like their family anymore. Everybody's got to have that same type of this. Not personality, but this drive to be their best. Not the best, their best. The best is subjective. Everybody's gonna have an opinion on the best. Their best is what I get to do to make them their best. So it's the same as the players of getting the most out of them on a daily basis to get them to where they want to be. And I've got to create that environment. I am no bigger than our position coaches. I'm no bigger than the players. I actually work for both of them. They don't work for me. And that's a different way of looking at it, I think. But I work for them. My job is to get them to where they want to be. Right? We all know this as coaches. You take a job knowing that one day your. Your own success will be compared to your own success. So it's going to be really hard for you to always just keep winning more and more and more and more. We're probably all going to get fired somehow some way one day, right? But while you have that platform, it's my responsibility to make everybody else better. We're all on the equal playing field that way, the fair playing field. But the only difference between me and them is I make the final decision. I'm no bigger than them or mean more to the program than them, because they can influence the program just as much as me. More than me or less than me. They have a chance to bring the program up or bring it down. Everybody has that power within, inside our program.

So let me ask you this. When you think about your very first, you know, you. You have an attitude, right? And you probably can define your attitude. I love, you know, directed energy. Haven't heard that one out of several hundred interviews. So awesome job. There's.

We keep it simple. I got an 18 on the ACT, so you got to be within two, three words of a definition or I'll never remember.

I love it. So who was your first attitude coach? And who instilled this fire in you to be who you are?

Well, I think I've always had this unique ability to have incredible energy. I've always loved life. I've always looked at things half full, and I've always had the ability to be and take and never take for granted my platform. And again, when I have a passion and then the platform meets, right? And that's energy. And I've always had a very unique way of looking at life, I think. And it's Because I think I've had so much trauma in my life that I look at it and have a different perspective. I'm sure we'll get into row the boat later on and the passing of my son. I've been divorced. I've lost so many people in my life. I've been the best at what I've done. I've been literally humiliated, been the worst at everything I've done. I've been dragged through the mud publicly. I've been everything that becoming successful comes with at times and also as you're being the real you making really tough decisions that maybe you're just going to do it because it's easy and I can save face and I really want to do it, but I'm afraid to do it. I haven't been afraid to do those things that are going to make my life and the people around me better. Even if it's going to make my life harder. So I think that's where that comes from. But I think my high school coaches started that. I was a freshman on all the varsity sports and I had people who believed in me. We never can get anywhere alone. We need people to get us to where we want to be and that's we'll get to row the boat later on. But that's part of the compass is you need to get yourself around people you wanted to become. And I taught 6th grade social studies because I love my elementary school teachers. I wanted to coach because my high school coaches brought the best out in me. Tom Federly, Joe Thorgason, Ken Nearing, who's passed my high school basketball coach, but Ralph Drendel, my track coach was just. He would always find the best way to get me to even motivate my own self. And I was pretty self motivated kid. And I think that's where that love for playing for your school, love for playing the sport, doing it the right way, respecting your opponent, respecting the games. I've always had such great energy and passion towards the people that were there before me and the way I could influence it when I had my platform and the people that will come after us because we all have to realize that somebody's going to be able to do our job maybe better than us one day. And we're not the only ones that can actually do our job. You know, we're not the only two people here that can write a book.

Right?

Everybody can do that. And there are probably a lot of people who do it way better than us. And you have to know that you have that Certain time to do it and take advantage of that.

What was your family life like as a kid? You got siblings and your parental structure.

Yeah, mom, dad grew up in basically a southwest side of Chicago kid, Catholic side, you know, Southwest side of Chicago kid.

Cool.

My mom was really a special education assistant so she would work with the young people with extreme special needs. And then I got to be able to be in that environment all summer and have a summer job that you didn't really get paid for back then. You just did it because your mom said to do it. My mom's got a huge heart, she's a really good person, she's very loyal and sometimes to a fault. And my dad is just a really hardworking man. Had a lot of things that had some issues with his life and had to overcome a lot of different things. And just a blue collar, hardworking union man and worked for AT&T, worked for Terminix, the bug company and just as blue collar as you can get. And you know, they instilled so many life lessons in me, but I also relied on the other people around me because I knew that if I was going to get to where I needed to be, I needed to get myself around people who had been there. But my dad was the kind of person who put me. If There was a 10 year old baseball team, I was 8 years old and on it. He always made me play up, train up, live up. You didn't have to show your birth certificate back then. I always just wondered why I was always the smallest kid on the team and the worst kid on the team. But by the end of the year I was one of the best kids because as human beings we usually just kind of almost play up to what we're doing without knowing it or play down to it without knowing it. And he always knew I'd be undersized and I really respected that. And it made me the competitor that I was and had an older sister who, you know, basically hated me. So, you know, as a younger brother and had to fight through a lot of that too.

I love it. Well, they always say if you're the smartest person in the room or the best person in the room, there is no room for growth. So love that lesson. Your dad put so many times we have people not only did mom and dad great attitude influences on us, we always love to touch on that. But it's that generation before them. I'm just curious, did you know grandma and grandpa on both sides? Did any of them, did you know them well enough that they had an influence on you. And do one of the four of them have an unreal story that that has an attitude lesson in it?

Well, my grandma, my mom's mom, Maryanne Procus was her name and she was the glue to our family. She passed away. I mean, shoot, we're talking 15 years ago, 20 years ago, but she was really the glue to our family. And I always remember my grandma, out of all of us, all of the, you know, her grandchildren, right, wrong or indifferent, she always told me, you're different, you're different, you're going to make it. Whatever you want to do, you have it. And I always remember that. And I felt bad. Not that she didn't say it to my other cousins, but she said it about my cousin Sean, I remember, who's now a big time priest. I mean, he was the Pope's right hand man when he was training, but he was like, he elevated so quickly as a young priest.

Wow.

She always used to say it about him and she always used to say it about me. Now I think we both have the gift of gab and can talk, but she always said it about us too. And I always remember that because she always knew I had something that was unique. And she always used to say, just be yourself. There's going to be a lot of people who like you. There's going to be a lot of people who hate you. But always make sure they hate you because you're yourself or they love you because of yourself. Don't ever let them love you because you're not somebody that you think that you are, or don't let them hate you because you're trying to be somebody and be liked. So I thought that was always some of the best lessons. And I think so many people are afraid to be themselves. And one of the best qualities and the most unique qualities we can actually have and be actually better than anyone else at, no matter what is truly being ourselves. We're just too afraid to do that because the norm is to conform to what the title says or what the job says or what social media says or what our society says. That's easy to do. When you actually are yourself. That's when you're going to stand out the most. When people sit there and say, I'm different, maybe I'm not so different, I'm just me when everybody's trying to be and fitting in and conform to what they're really not. But she taught me a lot. I think that was one person that growing up that I always wanted to do it for. Because she always told me those things because it was like, wow, you really think that about me?

Yeah.

And she knew I was going to get somewhere one day.

The power of belief in another. Grandma. What was her last name?

Marianne Prokus.

Grandma Patrocus. That is a attitude bomb for our gaffers. Guys, if you're a grandma out there, understand what the effect can be by speaking belief into either your child or your grandchild. That's. That's beautiful. That's awesome. And it. And it's real. Tell me about you. Said you, you know, you had a lot of failures. Things weren't going great at the time of great decision making in your life at the time where you felt most stressed out. Like, was there one question that went through your head? Did you ask yourself this question that went on, you know, over and over and over again? Or how did you manage to look at. There's people right now listening. They. They feel like they're failures. They feel like they're done. Nobody believes in them. They don't. Didn't have grandma's message. Like, when you felt like, man, shit's really hitting the fan here. I need to regroup. What. What was that process like for you? What's your mindset? What was your attitude to. For the comeback?

Well, first of all, I define failing as growth. Failure is quit. Those are a choice. The root word is fail. We're all going to do it.

Yep.

It's all just depending on what your attitude and your directed energy is based on that word. And I have failed a ton, way more than I've been successful. I think everybody that is successful probably has said that. So failing is a choice of how you're going to look at it. And I look at it as growth. The more I fail, the more I can grow or I can quit. There's a choice to that. And if you want to be a failure, then just quit. If you want to learn to fail to grow and be successful, then respond. And I think when I was my first year At Western Michigan, 32 years old, I'm the youngest head football coach in the country. I mean, I just came from being a position coach in the NFL, and I'm thrown into this role of rebuilding Western Michigan, and I thought, man, I got it figured out. And next thing you know, we go 1 in 11. I'm ranked 132 out of 132. I'm divorced. So my personal life has fallen apart. My professional life is falling apart. I'm a schmuck. I mean, I'm the worst of the worst in every area of my life. And that was a real trying time for me. It was a real, and this is a few years prior my son passed away to a heart condition. So all of that kind of came to a head and I really had to ask myself, am I exactly who I say I am? And if I am, I can work through it and I can make it better. But it's going to take a complete reinvention of myself. It's going to take this transparency of myself. It's going to this change of myself, which is change we define as truthful listening. You got to be true to yourself, then you got to listen to what's going on around you and respond to it. And that's what I did. And I really became incredibly more authentic, genuine. I became a way better version of myself. I really then became a non micromanager. I trusted so many people around me. I empowered people. I wasn't a boss anymore, I was a leader. And I think that was the true change in my life. It was at my deepest darkest time, publicly, professionally, personally, all out there. And I have no problem talking about it because too many people hide the things that they have been through that are embarrassing, but that's what's made us really successful. But they only want to talk about the successful part. I love talking about all my failings. I love it because so many people have to that are hopefully reading this. I mean, I still see somebody usually every week for my own mental health. I've had to do that for years. And I'm a really positive guy and I got a great attitude, right? But to keep that attitude positive, I got to throw up and dump my trash can on somebody. And I can't just do that to my wife or I'll be on my third marriage. So, I mean, you can't do those things. But you really gotta either genuinely change and have an honest conversation with yourself and know exactly where you want to be and do the right necessary steps to get there as hard as they're going to be. And some people don't direct their energy, time, attitude towards that. And they always wonder why I didn't.

What's the most profound thing that your coach, your mental coach has given you? Like, you know, you say you maybe meet with him once a month and you're dumping and you're going through and you guys are collaborating and brainstorming and then, man, he hit it with you right between the eyes. Do you remember one thing he said that you went Holy crap, man, that's good.

Well, he said, you have a problem with wanting to control the consequences to everything, really. I said, okay, so basically, as human beings, we all have the choice of the decisions we make. We do not have the choice of the consequences. And whether we make really good choices, at times, the consequences of those might not be great. They will be great, could be great. But sometimes it's not always going to work out well. Just like when you make a bad choice, sometimes you get away with it, sometimes you don't. But you don't get the choice of that consequence. You do get the choice of how you respond to that. And I think that's incredibly important for everybody that's listening to understand that we all go through crap. We all have crap. Right now I have a tattoo on my Achilles because I've learned over time that if you're not willing to stop and smell the roses in the positive times and celebrate the moments and the memories, then the hard ones are going to be even worse, and they're going to be way tougher to get over. The tattoo says, this too shall pass. But we as human beings always take that context in a negative way, meaning this too shall pass when things are really negative in our life. But how about using that same frame, which is true, but take that same frame and that quote and use it in a positive way. Even the fun times and the positive times, they're not going to last. That will pass, too, if you can understand that. The only thing we truly have power over is the choices we make. And the consequences will come, good and bad. We can have a choice to respond to those and change and grow, or keep making that same mistake over and over and over until it buries us. That's the choices we get to make.

And that, in a nutshell, is pretty much the definition of attitude. It's the way you dedicate yourself to the way you think. That's the definition we use here at the Get Attitude podcast. So that's good. Well, let's go ahead and talk about Row the Boat. I believe that book came out when you were at Western Michigan turning it from 1 and 11 around. Or was it before then?

No, that was when it really basically started and it was unveiled. And that's when we decided to write the book during COVID because not many people had anything to do. We were all in our houses, and John Gordon and I got together and we both prayed on it and then said, let's do it. I mean, it didn't take long to write. Remember I got an 18 on the ACT.

Right. Well, John's accomplished, so he was a good partner, that's for sure.

And he fit my style. It was. I could tell a story. He writes about other people's stories. They're very short. They're all about 100 pages or less. And they get right to a point. And usually the name of the title gets right to what it's about. And that's what Row the Boat is. It's a Never Give up lifestyle, which I'm sure we'll dive into here in a second.

Yeah. Cool. So, yeah, let's go ahead. Just do it. What. What would you say is the one or two most impactful stories or popular stories in the book for those who maybe haven't read it? And if you guys want to get it, it's on Amazon. We got it on our thing. We'll put a link in the notes. But maybe the two biggest lessons on Row the Boat that resonate most. Most with everybody or what was the one John Gordon goes, damn, I'm good. That's something I haven't heard before.

Well, he's heard everything.

I know he has.

Well, basically, Row the Boat just said, never give up lifestyle. It's truly a choice. The or is the energy you bring to your life. It's the only thing that moves the boat. The boat is the sacrifice, which is the. You know, the more you give and the more you serve and the more you make your life about other people, the. The more joyful of life you're going to live. And. And the farther you can go in life. Big boats go far, little boats sink. Right. Simple. Yeah. The life. Water symbolizes life. Right. In the whole analogy. And then the third part's the compass. And that's who we are. We are who we surround ourselves with. And if you want to be successful, get yourself around successful people quick. They're probably not doing all the popular things. They're probably out there working hard and grinding. But that's what it's all about. Backs to the future. You can't really determine that. You row in the present, which is the only thing you can control. You look at the past, which is the only thing you can't change. So that's the whole Row the boat.

Love it.

Symbolism. Right? And it all stems from my son passing away February 9, 2011. And I wanted to be someone who shared his life with people. When you get into a community, attach himself. I'm a human being. We're a public figure. We're a celebrity, whatever you want to call us. We're a highest paid state employee, but we're still like everybody else and we've got issues and problems and death and situations and a lot of times we don't look at that. And as a coach, when you share that, you can connect so many people. So, you know, one of the stories from the book is actually during my first year in the National Football League, I know that I'm a 5 9, 180 pound, stunning NFL athlete, but I got picked up for $1,000 signing bonus with the San Francisco 49ers. I know that's a lot. And so I get there, I'm 14 out of 14 on the depth chart. I'm going to get cut at the end of the first minicamp. I don't have any reps except Dennis Erickson calls everybody up at the end of practice, said, all right, we're going to do our conditioning test now. So I got no reps in a three day event in three day practices. So I know now coaching in the NFL, I was going to get cut because you don't get any reps, you're getting cut. So I would have spent three days in the NFL. And so we did the beep test. And the beep test is you start, it beeps and you run and you got to beat that beep past like a 20 yard, 30 yard mark. And you just have to go back and forth with these beeps. And I remember the only way that I'm making tomorrow we're going to have a chance of making it to the next OTA is if I win this damn thing. And that was the only way because I had no reps to prove myself. I'm definitely getting cut. I'm 14 out of 14 on depth chart. I have to win it. So everybody gets excited and then I, then I give somebody a reason to say, don't cut them, get them to the next one. And who is that guy? Because right now nobody knew who I was. Not one person on the team knew who this guy was. And so Brandon Doman, the quarterback of BYU and myself, we actually tie set a San Francisco 49er record. We both fall all over the finish line at the same time. We celebrate, people lift us up. And I made that. I ended up, ended up making the team and played for two and a half years. But if I wouldn't have won that race, right, there's no way I would have even made it to tomorrow. So it didn't, it didn't show. My, my skill set had nothing to do with it. Being a great receiver had nothing to do with me making that team. It had to do with my talent, my heart, my spirit, my unconquerable will, my journey, my story, my how that got me to that. That there was no. Nothing was going to stop me. Of all the years that I dreamed of having this, nothing was going to make me get beat in that beep test. That was how you get through a lot of adversity is that dream is so much greater than that grind of it that you're willing to sacrifice how you feel. Life's about the journey, not the end. I was always the king of the twos. Too small, too short, too dumb, too slow. And it was all on display that next minicamp. But the talent of me, you couldn't measure. I love that.

I think the, you know, the point of that story for people, maybe not in football, is as you're going through life, you got to show up in front of every relationship, in front of every person. There may be a person that you go, this person couldn't change my life. But in fact, if you show up right well, without any preconceived notions or to any job or to any interview or to anything, that the opportunity comes from having the right attitude every moment, every time you're in front of somebody. And I think that, to me, really resonates with what you did.

Yeah. I mean, even when I hire people, I don't necessarily always hire people because they're the best at the job. I hire them if they're a cultural fit, then teach them the job.

Yeah, I love.

I'm looking for the right attitude, the right people. Nothing's worse than a person who does the job at a high level that brings everybody down. I've had that before. I don't want that. Give me the right fit. Give me the right how. Give me the right heart, the spirit, the work ethic, the unconquerable will, the attitude, the energy. Give me that, and I'll make you a coach. I'll make you a great player, because that's truly what it is.

And, and, and, and with that, let's roll into. I want to get. When you think of the player that maybe has the had or maybe it's current, the best or the greatest attitude that you ever coached, I mean, there's got to be a handful, I'm sure. But a kid where you maybe walked in or he walked in and you're a man, I'm not sure. This guy's got everything against him, and he Turned everything like, who was that one player? And again, I know there's three or four, but let's hear the story of that player and the lesson, you know, where he came from and how that player bridged the gap to where he wanted to become.

Well, unbelievably, I've only had been a head coach 10 years and I've had two quarterbacks play for me the entire time. One quarterback at Western Michigan and one quarterback at Minnesota. One played four years, one played six years and they both went to the National Football League. One was with the Ravens, one's now with the Pittsburgh Steelers, and they're both 6 foot nothings, 200 pound nothings, and kind of the king of the twos. But one is Zach Terrell, who was our quarterback at Western Michigan, and the other is Tanner Morgan, who was our quarterback here at Minnesota. And I'll tell you a story about Zach Terrell because when I first met Zach Terrell, he was a freshman at Western Michigan. And I actually called him in my office and I said, you know what, after watching you for a few weeks, I think you're a terrible leader. I don't know if this is going to be the place for you. I don't know if you're going to be able to lead this football team the way I want you to lead it. I don't know if I'm a good fit for you. And he was a little quiet, maybe a little timid, very spiritual young man. And it just felt like it wasn't going to connect. And he's like, you really feel that way about me, Coach? I'm like, absolutely. I mean, I don't know you like everybody else knows you. And he's like, that's not who I am. And you know what, I was going to transfer, but I'm going to stay to show you exactly who I am. Because I. That's not who I am. I said, well, that's what you're giving off. So we, it was almost, we were separated once we got there and it couldn't have been a better story. He takes us from 1 in 11 to 13 and oh wow, Cotton bowl appearance, parents. Which has never happened in the history of Western Michigan. He's not only one of the greatest quarterbacks in the Mid American Conference history, he won a championship. We're the worst team in the country. His first year starting for us and turns into basically, I think, a third team all American taking us to 13 and oh, a championship, a Cotton bowl appearance, the greatest record in school history, hundreds of things we had never done at Western Michigan. He won the Campbell Trophy, which is the academic Heisman college football. And the one story I'll tell you about it, when I was going through my divorce, I told my team and the response was this. I told him what was going on. I told him what we were going through. I told him that we were having a divorce. And he literally stands up, turns to the team and goes, guys, let's all pray for coach. And that was it. I would have thought they were going to be mad at me. I thought they, you know, you know, this guy, you know, whatever. You just feel like everybody's going to look at you and look at you like, you know, like you're a freak and you're a bad person and you're, you know, stick out like a sore thumb and they don't want to follow you anymore. And his response was, let's pray for coach. Let's connect him to us. That was amazing. And when you're starting to learn more from your employees and your players, then you're teaching them, you're doing something really powerful. And that's the power of him. And now he's a higher up in the. He's a GM of a car business. He's making six figures. Plus I'm going to be working for him probably one day. I mean, he's unbelievable.

I love that story. Tell me about as you floated around the coaching ranks for 10 years, what. And you've been, you know, hey, we've all gone to the coaches clinics and all that. Is there a college or a pro coach that gave you an attitude lesson? You were sitting in a clinic, somebody said something and you went, man, that is, that's good. I'd love to know like maybe who are one or two of your coaching mentors would be, I guess that you look to that you go, man, that, that's a coach. That really you're, you're. I interviewed Tom Allen and you were one of his. When I asked him this question. I don't know if you and Tom know each other well, it sounds like you probably do, but I'd love to just know who's, who's kind of gotten into your heart and mind as a, as a peer or as the coach, where you go, man, this is why I think they got, they got going on.

Well, Tom Allen would be one of them. He's a fantastic human being. But I'll say one that I meet with every year and we do it annually and we share so much. We spend about 48 hours around each other, which it doesn't sound like a lot of time, but when you have two coaches that are our personalities, it's like magic. And we get so much out of the weekend. Buzz Williams, the head basketball coach at Texas A and M. Wow. I like to go outside of the sport of football because I think a lot of football coaches are going to give you 99%, but we're still paranoid people and we feel like somebody's going to steal something from us and use it against us later in recruiting. So I think we're all willing to get partial truce, but not all of it. So when you go outside your sp, there's no competitiveness, competitive disadvantage on either way. But Buzz is one of them. He's a very unique individual and we share a lot of things together. But I would say the two mentors I have is why I wear a tie on the sideline. I'm only a head coach and game day is really important because of Mike Nolan was my head coach with the 49ers and he cut me my third year and he's still one of my greatest mentors. And once he cut me, within the same breath he offered me a coaching job. I never thought about coaching in the NFL or coaching in college. I thought I was going to go teach elementary school and teach 6th grade social studies and then go coach high school. And he goes, I think you'd be a fantastic coach because I've watched you with your own, your peers and you just, you don't care who's going to take your job. You just share and you teach and you make everybody better. So he cut me and within the same breath offered me an NFL coaching job. And like an idiot, I didn't take it. I wanted to, but I thought I was still a really good player. Anyway, a week later, Jim Trestle calls me unannounced and offers me a GA job out of nowhere. But you always have to make sure that you just never know who's going to be talking about you and what they're going to say and who they're going to say it to. So you better make sure you always take care of your business. Mike Sabach was Jim Trestel's fraternity brother at Baldwin Wallace where they went to school. And Jim Trestle, his GA couldn't get into school, so he needed a GA really quickly in a time where there was really nobody available. And he offered me a job site unseen. And so I took that job. Wow. Both wore ties on the sideline, so one ended My career. And if he didn't end my career that day, that moment, that minute, I wouldn't have been the coach that I am today because it wouldn't have fit into Jim Trestle's time frame. And so they both wore ties. I wear a tie to represent those men changing my life every Saturday. And I wouldn't be a, I wouldn't be a head coach without him. And so I'm smart enough to know that I'm where I'm at because other people got me here.

That's such a great tribute to them. You, you mentioned one thing and then we're gonna go to knowledge through the decades with you. But let's talk about recruiting number one. When you know, be your authentic self, be you. A lot of times 18 year old kids are them and they're not really impressive. Right. So I just love to like get your take number one on. What is it like to, you know, like what do you think recruiting really is? Like, what is there a golden nugget? Is there a super pill, whatever? Are there coaches that are better than others? Or you could even talk about how you want to recruit. But the recruiting piece is fascinating because in any business, in any industry, recruiting and retention is everything. And we're all out looking for talent. And so just the, I just kind of want to get your feel for the, like the process of recruiting. And when you know you got a kid that's awesome, but man, you meet him and you're like not sure he's got the attitude. Do you, do you say, I think I can change that kid's attitude. What's that challenge? Right? And then so let's just, let's just start with that. How do you approach that and what's the, what's the process and the philosophy of that?

Well, I think one of the biggest misconceptions is I'll just talk about our program is we don't recruit, we don't even believe in recruiting. We believe in selecting, right. The selection process for us. This is not recruiting. I do not want to convince somebody who is not going to fit here, who won't play here, who won't fit academically, athletically, socially, spiritually. I don't want that person in this program.

Awesome.

Because I'm going to spend all my time babysitting instead of developing and retaining, influencing. So the great thing about us, we got the. As a head coach of college football, you're the gm, you're the president, you're the owner, you're everything. I don't have an owner that tells me who I get to recruit. Now, some people have to deal with that. Some people deal with an ad or donors or boosters, especially in the nil transfer market.

Oh, boy.

Telling me to do that. So we select. My number one hiring question among staff and recruits is simply this. Tell me your story from birth till now. Go.

Wow.

That's it. I don't look at resumes. That's my question. And from there, I'm going to know everything I need to know. Where you start matters to me. What you say matters to me. How you tell your story of your life. This isn't about mommy and Daddy, you know, coming in and telling their version of your story.

Never true.

Well, little Tommy. I told me tell you about little Tommy. No, no, no, no. It's coming from Tommy. You two sit there and listen to his interpretation of his life. And to me, it's a glorious thing.

Yeah.

Because I find out whether they fit me or not. And I'm going to get great players anyway. There's a million high school football players a year. I'm going to find 20 of them that fit me, but I got to find the right 20.

Yeah.

And that's the key to it. I'm not for everybody. And I think I take a lot of slack for saying that. But nobody's for everybody. Nobody. I mean, we'd all read the same books, we'd all go to the same movie. We all have the same food. We're all not for everybody. I'm just willing to say I'm not for everybody. It's okay if you're not for me. It's okay if I'm not for you. It's okay. I just want to find the people that fit me. Not personality.

Right, Right.

With the heart, the spirit, the attitude, the unconquerable will, the determination to get to where you say you want to go. Because again, it's about your life. Do you really want to go there? Do you want to just play in the NFL? Do you want to be an all Pro in the NFL? Do you just want to go to school or do you want to get great grades in school? Do you want to be a business person or do you want to own the business? Be very specific in what I'm working with here. Right. And I think that's important for you to understand as somebody who hires. Which to me is the number one attribute of the best leaders. They hire well, because everybody in this building is way smarter than me.

Right.

I'm not afraid to say it. My GM who's through this wall, got a 35 on the act. He doubled my score. And every day I'm reminded by it because of how brilliant he is, but I don't make a decision without running it by him.

Yeah, that's good. Well, I love the. You know, we always say it's about attraction. I love how you say it's about selection and it's not about recruiting. So I'm going to change that in my narrative as well. So I appreciate that when you say, tell me the story of your life. This is what I've been doing on the Get Attitude podcast. We have this thing called Knowledge through the Decades, and I just walk you through your Life at every 10 years, and I just ask you to come up with your attitude lesson. Now, I. I do want to just touch on your son, Colt. Was he an infant when he passed, or how old was he?

Yeah, he was. Yep.

Okay.

That's a hard feeling because you know about it, and, you know, you know, you're setting up doctors, setting up surgeons, you know, to get it fixed, and then eventually you find out that he probably won't make it. Right. And then you go to the hospital and. And then you come out with, you know, nothing. You know, it's just a very, very unique feeling. And that's why Row the Boat, which. It's its own charity, and I think people have to understand that I don't make any money from Row the Boat. Row the Boat has raised so much money at the Masonic Children's Hospital. You know, our book, all the money goes to the Children's Hospital. Anything Row the Boat goes to the Children's Hospital. And part of the reason I've really enjoyed where I've been is because they've allowed me to use it. They've allowed me to be me. They've allowed be able to connect the past with the present into the future and. And respect the traditions of old, but create this new culture. Culture is about now, right? And that's what our culture is. It doesn't say we haven't had tradition here. This is one of the most traditional football programs in the world. Sky Uma has been around 100 years, 130 years, but it's a combination of that past, present, and into the future of how we're building our program.

Well, that's. Yeah. Well, we want to make sure our listeners. If you feel what Coach is giving you, go to road to the boat.org I would guess, and donate it in memory of Colt. And certainly we've dealt with infant fatalities, too. I worked in a hospice for young children. And the work that the doctors, the nurses, and just the whole apparatus of people who care for the infants that are passing are unbelievable. So that's great. I'll make sure that I jump on that site to do it. So keep on rowing. Uh, let's go to knowledge through the decades. You've got five kids. And I always like to ask this question, what is the attitude lesson of being born? Now, you may not remember being born, but maybe you think about them when you think about the attitude lesson. What, what's there to learn about birth?

I think you get to choose your own path for me. I mean, you really do. Life's about choices. You get to choose that. But I think that we conform as a society. We take the, like, water a path of least resistance. I mean, think really big, dream big, right? And I mean, think about when I was raised, and I'm sure we'll get to this, but I was raised in stranger danger. Don't get into a car with somebody you don't know. Now, we do that all the time with Uber, right? $17.2 billion Stranger Danger business model, right? So, I mean, that's what's crazy is that you can. You get to choose your path and you get to create your life of whatever you want your life to look like. We all have the freedom to do that. And it's not equal. It's about fair. And there's nothing really equal in this world.

Well, there's nothing really fair in the world either, but I think it is.

Because everybody's going to have incredible hardships and everybody's got an opportunity, whether you take advantage of that or not. Some are more opportunities, some are less, but it's fair. And we hear stories all the time of people coming from nothing into something. A lot of our donors are immigrants, right? And there's Israeli immigrants or Italian immigrants. We're all a melting pot here.

That's awesome.

So we always talk about this fair part, and the level of fare is a little different, right? And we know that. And I think 2020 taught us all that, right? And really opened our eyes to so much of that. But the equal part, that's really hard because I think people think it's just going to be. And then if you think it's going to be that way, then it's going to be hard for you to be able to see the reality of the world. But what we're doing is changing it by having this fair. Okay, I've got A chance. I got a shot if I get myself around the right people, if I can have access to that. And I think our world's changing in that way, in a really big, positive way.

Tell me. Okay, so now we're going to. 10 years old, coach. 10 years old. You remember that put you in about fourth or fifth grade. I want to know what the attitude lesson you learned at 10. Maybe it was, you were bullying somebody, they were bullying you. A teacher spanked you. You remember being, you know, fourth, fifth grade and learning something that changed it for you.

Power of reading.

Wow. Okay.

So my third grade teacher, which would be, you know, nine, nine, 10 years old. So it's right around the same deal. I. My favorite. All my. The fleck children. Their favorite. If you ask them what their favorite subject is, they say PE and recess. They're definitely fleck children. Right? Because my fav. Subject, PE and recess. But I always wanted to be the first one out of recess. Well, this one particular day, we're reading this book in my third grade class. Ms. Jacob and Ms. Jacob. I was the first one done reading, and I turned my book in, and I couldn't wait to go outside. Ms. Jacob said, PJ, come back over here. I'm like, yes, Ms. Jacob. She's like, tell me about the chapter that we had to read before going out to recess. He had to finish the chapter and then go out. Well, I was the first one done, and she's no dummy. I wasn't the best reader in the class. I was this far away from having somebody have to read it to me. That's how great I was. And so she goes, tell me about the chapter. And true me, I just kind of went through it and said, yeah, this is what happened to the frog. And this. She's like, pj, that is so far from the truth. You did not read the chapter. It's like, yeah, I know. I just want to go to recess. She goes, for the next two weeks, you will not go to recess. Wow. You were going to sit in here and read with me every recess. I mean, you talk about a bomb going off near you like, it's the worst thing life has ever brought to me. But it taught me that that's awesome. Reading was way more important than the recess. I could have a lot of recess and a lot of pes one day if I use the power of reading. And I still don't love to read, but I will read because I know what it can do for you. And, you know, I told you about my 18 act but I became an academic All American.

Yeah.

And so I think she taught me that very, very valuable life lesson and I had to learn it the hard way.

Well, I bet you love to read scouting reports.

I do love to read those, that's for sure. And film, definitely film has no words on it usually. I love to watch movies, so it's good. I love the Cliff Notes and I love if the books on them in a movie. I'm good. I'll just watch the movie.

Now the question is going to be, how is AI? I'm sure you guys have looked at this. How's AI going to affect the scouting process? Are you guys going to go in and go, hey, load the data, here's the AI report.

I'm sure that's coming down the pipeline very quickly. I mean, I might be replaced with an AI coach one day. You just never know.

We're all going to have avatars on the sideline.

That's right.

All right, so let's go to 20. What college were you at? You were 20 years old. What was the attitude lesson you learned at 20?

Just enjoy it and stay in your 20s as long as you can. Stay in your 20s, experience it all, take it all in and find out what you truly, truly, truly love. And we tell our own children, Heather and I, not to even get married till you're 30.

I love it. Cool.

Maybe that's my 30 advice was don't get married until I'm 30. But I think you have to tell yourself that at 30 so you can live your 20s better.

Yeah, you'll never. And I hear that I have three sons all in their 20s. And you know, so many of our friends go, dude, just keep being 20. You're never gonna understand what you're gonn.

The advice should actually go backwards. Right? That's the whole point of life. Right? And I feel way different physically when I run or bike or swim than I did at 20. So enjoy those 20s and just hold off on that in that wedding until 30. I think you'll know exactly what you're looking for and I think you'll be really mature because I think in the 20s we change the most with experiences and I think we really find out who we truly are in our 20s.

And with that said, you, hey, you're employed by a bunch of 20 year olds. Do you feel that the dynamic of a 20 year old, has it changed in 10 years? I mean, is it, are the basics the same, but they're just worried about different stuff? Just, just curious to just get Your quick take or your Read on. Are 20 year olds the same as they've always been, or are they battling and fighting? Is it legitimate that they got new concerns, new worries and new challenges? Right.

Well, I think life has its challenges, period. No matter which generation you're a part of. Right. I just think that they have access to so much more information than they used to have.

Yeah.

They're so much smarter than they used to be. And they'll call you out on anything that you don't know that you think you do know. My dad used to tell me certain things and I believed him because my dad told me, now you tell a player something, they just go boop, boop, boop. Ask Siri, and it doesn't match your answer. They're not listening to you anymore. So there's this trust factor that I think Kevin Eastman writes in his book that it comes down to time, consistency and proof. And that's true. That's trust. I think it takes the trust factor a little longer to kick in than it did before. The time is a little bit longer, the consistency has to be a little bit more steady, and the proof has to be bigger for them to buy into everything you're saying than before where I just did it because my coach said to do it. I mean, now you better have a reason why you're doing everything.

Skepticism is probably at a higher rate now or a higher level. Yeah, I always, I always love that saying, trust isn't earned in a day, it's earned day by day. And that's, that's, you know, that gets into that consistency and all that. All right, let's go to 30 years old. Tell us about what you were doing when you were 30, what you were going through. What was your attitude lesson when you turned 30?

I was screwing up my entire life.

So love adversity, number eight on the card.

I would say that micromanaging gets you nowhere.

Ooh.

There's a massive difference between a boss and a leader because I said so. That doesn't get you very far.

Wow.

I think in the 30s, my early 30s, that's what I did. I tried to be the title instead of being the best version of myself within the title and making everyone around me better. That the power of empowerment was, was critical in my 30s.

Man, that is so good for so many people I know who are listening to this right now. So, gappers, I want you to just step back and think about, you know, are you working towards your title? Are you living your title? Are you really a person of empowerment. That, that's just huge. You're 40, right? But you're not 50.

I'm not 50. No, I'm 42.

Well, this will be your last one. So tell us what you did. Tell us what you did for your birthday two years ago. And what do you think the attitude lesson was for you in the past two years?

Well, I would say, for me, I would say that the power of celebration, the power of ends, meaning I think one of the biggest. This is what I mean. I mean one of the biggest diseases successful people have is that nothing's ever good enough for you. Because that's a blessing and a curse. It's required to be successful. It's required to be elite. However, it can also be the demise of you. Meaning everything runs together. You're never satisfied. There's no end to anything. You don't remember anything in your life. So when there's really great moments in your life, celebrate them because they will pass. If there's really hard things in your life, know that you will get through that. You will row the boat through that. That too shall pass as well. But when you set objectives and you set goals on the way to big visions, celebrate the checkpoints when you have them. We have more champagne in our house than we ever had. And we could open a champagne winery with as much champagne as we have. We could, we could actually stock the NBA Finals, NHL, Stanley cup, the super bowl because we have so much damn champagne. Because my wife Heather has taught me you're going to forget everything in your life one day if you don't celebrate. Stop. Smell the roses. When something happens that you should celebrate. So now we celebrate everything. But it's truly created these moments of memories that I remember because when you ask me about my third before my 30s, it's a blur. I worked so hard. It was just the bottom line. The bottom line. The bottom line, basically in a business world that I forget a lot of the journey where when you celebrate, you remember the failings, you remember the successes, you remember the responses and you have that clear cut and the people are going to want to work for you more. When it's fun, yeah. You can't live in the fun zone though. Like fun is earned. Disney world still costs $200 ticket to go to Disney World. The happiest, funnest place in the world. You still got to pay for it. It's not free. So it's hard. And things at Disney World are hard. There's a $20 hot dog. It's hard to earn that money to go to Disney World. So you've got to be able to train your people to stop, smell the roses, celebrate. And I think I'm really good at that now.

I love.

We're taking our whole staff golfing tomorrow, and we're having this golf tournament, and I never used to do that.

Yeah.

And, you know, we're going to celebrate the end to selecting, recruiting process. Right. And I do everything I can to celebrate as much as I can to make sure it's worth it.

Well, you. You've finished second in the west the past two years. I. I don't know. I believe in you, man. When I wrote that in that book, I just. I watch you and I follow you, and I just think there's. There's a momentum, there's an attitude, there's an attraction. Nobody thinks you can do it. I think you know that. I don't think anybody ever, every single year, doesn't give you a shot. But I just want you to know that our gappers and I are rooting for you. We're watching you. We're following you. We're praying for you. But one last thing that we always like to do is if you could, you know, give our gappers just a message of hope. There's. There's somebody that may be going through that divorce right now, Somebody that may be getting ready to go bankrupt right now. Somebody may be getting ready to quit their job and start a new business. Somebody's getting ready to get fired. All the adversities you talked about. But we always just love if. If you can get on your preacher box. I'm a good Catholic boy, too, so give me your best sermon. But for those people that are listening, you've given us great, great information. Information that can be used, information that can bridge the gap from where people are to where they want to go. And, coach, I'm so thankful. But if you could just give us a quick message of hope, we would sure appreciate it. And we'll get you out of here.

Yeah. One of the best pieces of advice I ever got was don't sacrifice what you really want down the road for what you want right now. Meaning we all know where we want to go. We all have this incredible vision of where we want to go. We also have this vision of our life, of what it's expected to look like. Know that nobody's line is straight. Nobody. You're born and you die, and everybody thinks you stay on this line. That is the biggest myth ever. So when anything negative takes us off, that line and we dip. We're so sad, we're defeated. But the people that respond to that dip, which is probably just change and uncomfortableness. Right? You'll get to a higher peak. The line of success looks like this as it goes up. It is not a straight line. And some people's valleys are deeper and some peaks are higher. But we all have peaks and valleys. And being able to understand that, to keep changing your best at peaks and valleys, celebrating the fun times, not sacrificing what you want down the road for what you want right now. And I'm talking about if you're feeling negative right now, know that that's temporary. If you're feeling happy right now and joyful, nothing can stop you right now. That's still temporary, right? Because something's coming. But we think if anything takes us off that line, oh, boy. Why me? Everybody has the line of success. That is a up and down line. It just depends on how long we let that thing sink or how long we let it go Peaking, that's up to us. So I encourage everybody to keep rowing that boat. Never give up on yourself. Get yourself around people you want to be like and think and act like the person you actually want to become.

All right. Well, Coach, I appreciate your directed energy today. We wish you the best in the upcoming season. There's anything we can do to serve you, let us know. Gaffers. That's it. Head coach P.J. fleck of the Minnesota Golden Gophers, next year's Big Ten champs. We'll talk to you soon. See you on the next gap.