S3 #6 - Getting The Job Done With A Can-Do Attitude With Jim Schellinger Of Butler University

In a world full of turmoil, despair, and darkness, you need to carry the light. Season three of the Get Attitude podcast is where we will ignite your mind, your heart, and your attitude. And welcome to the Get Attitude podcast, season three, carry the Light. And ladies and gentlemen, we have somebody that carries the light. Many have considered him to be a torchbearer. This gentleman that you're going to meet today, that you're going to learn from today, that I hope you tap into today, has an attitude of overcoming, has an attitude of taking on things that are bigger than himself. And as attitude booster number 10 talks about, lookit, you gotta be a part of something bigger than you. And this gentleman is the ambassador of global relations at Butler University. He was also our former secretary of commerce. And the thing that's so cool about this is he ran for governor as a Democrat, and our Republican governor actually handpicked him and said, you know what? I want you to be our secretary of commerce for the state of Indiana. And what you'll soon find out, and I'm pretty sure that this is true, is that that collaboration, that foresight and that light created probably the most successful and profitable relationship Indiana has ever seen in that department. He is also, prior to running for governor, an extremely successful entrepreneur and business owner. He was the owner of CSO Architects here locally. And the one thing I know about him is he gave away a lot of his services. He designed and created architectural plans and master plans for many, many nonprofits. And so when I think about carrying the light, I think about the one and only Jim Schellinger. Jim, welcome to the Get Attitude podcast.

Thanks, Glenn. It's always good to see you.

It's great and welcome and I hope you enjoy this. I don't know. I've interviewed you on tv. Have you ever done a podcast before?

I did one time. I had the privilege of doing one with Gary Dick a while back.

Oh, okay. I think I maybe saw that. Well, let's get right into it. I always love our guests to talk about their definition of attitude, what attitude means to them. And who was your first attitude teacher?

Well, you know, it's interesting. When you think about attitude, the first word that comes to mind for me is choice. Right. Because you get to choose what your attitudes. And as you ask that question, I'm thinking in my mind, everybody has one, and you have one 24 7, whether you choose to or not, because it might not be a good attitude, it might be a bad attitude. And we like to associate as being a good attitude. But I think That I live my life in a very positive way. I am blessed beyond blessed. I told my wife not long go. If I could go back and do everything again, I wouldn't change one single thing. With the possible exception of when I was at Notre Dame and in the five year architecture school program, I worked full time at a tool and I shop as a steel grinder. And I said, I wish I could have gone to college without distraction and not had that. So everything was a deadline. But I think attitude is, you know, every day I wake up with a positive attitude. I thank God for all the blessings he's given me, and I thank for my family. And it just. It couldn't. I don't know how anyone that is blessed who I am couldn't have a positive attitude about these.

I love it. And then when you think about who instilled that in you or who your attitude coach was, your first attitude coach, where do you think that came from and what was the lesson you learned?

I just was talking about this the other day. My mother was a very influential person in my life. You know, she was the master. She was the mother of eight children and loyal wife of Boyd. And we raised eight kids. She raised eight kids and a tiny little house clan as a realtor, you know, sizes of homes. This was a 995 square foot house. There were two people sleeping in the area. That was like 455 square feet. And we wanted for nothing. If I could go back tomorrow and spend a day at that house and ride my, you know, my bike, my stingray with my ball mitt around it to Keller Park, I'd get anything to do that. But my mom, she was very influential. She was. Didn't go to college. She skipped seventh grade because she was pretty sharp, pretty smart. And she had a big influence on me. She had more common sense, Glenn, in her pinky than most people have in their whole body. And she was the one that instilled probably in me more than anybody that if you're not living a life in service to others, you're not really living at all. And as little as we had in terms of material wealth back in those days, every gap was filled with love and companionship of our brothers and sisters and our friends, and it couldn't have been better.

That is so. And what's her name? We gotta honor her, right? What's her name?

Patricia Schellinger.

All right, Patricia, this show is for you. God love you. And I have to go back to that tool and grinder shop. What was your Attitude in that shop. What was the attitude of the people you worked with? What did the tool and grind shop, even though you wish you could have gone to school uninterrupted, that shop and that atmosphere and those people teach you about attitude?

Well, you know, it's funny, when I stepped down as secretary, I had to put together a resume. I haven't done a resume since 1984. And at the tail, Laura says, you can't go longer than two pages. I said, but I'm not 22 years old graduating from college. I'm 61 years old. I got something, you know, I've got more things to list here. And at the tail end of it, she took exception with the fact that I wrote down three positions I held that I said were really in my education and career background was hard knocks. I started my career at 13 as a dishwasher at the Moose Lodge. Down the street north, was a bartender act much like the Knights of Columbus on the north side. Then I graduated up to Morrow Seminary out at Notre Dame where the priests are trained and where they live. I was a janitor there after school throughout my high school years. Washing mop on the floors and taking out trash. And then I graduated to a die shop. What was amazing about that was as a steel grinder, it's the lowest job on a totem pole. Nobody wants minimum wage, but it was a big deal to me. It was a big, big deal to me at the time to have that income while I was going to school. And, you know, no one wanted my job. So as a result, I was like everybody's favorite. Everybody that wanted to gossip or talk, they talked to me because I was like communication central. And I loved it. I mean, it was, when I look back on it, it was grueling work because steel grinding is sanding the edges of steel that's much like wood. The difference is instead of wood splinters, you get steel splinters and they're harder to find. But it was a. It was a time of my life that when I look back on it, I was taught so many things. And you can imagine in a tool. And I shop and you got a lot of trades people, which is a great, honest career in the tool. And I shop and you've got a lot of people there. And here's this kid, you know, that's going to Notre Dame. So it was a big deal for them and I took a lot of pride in that. And as such, I felt like I owed them an attitude, so to speak, as we're talking about here that showed that they were just as important as I was. And they were really. They admired the fact that I was going to college and going to Notre Dame because it's a big deal locally as, you know, and gonna be an architect. They're mystified by that. But those. Those gentlemen back then taught me more than I could ever put into words.

Yeah, that's cool. Do you have a story or was there a motto or a lesson or something that somebody used to say that always kind of comes back in your head when you think about those guys. Anything specific is what I'm getting at.

Well, the thing. I just remember two things, actually. One is sometimes I get. They send me to do something and they say, this is government work. This is G work. I had no clue what that meant. I figured, okay, we're doing some work for the United States government. And that was not the case because they were basically. That meant I was doing something for somebody personal in the plant, usually the two owners, you know, I was doing something that was for them, personal. So they called it G work, government work. And then that was always followed by it all pays the same.

Right? I love it. Well, how fun. I've never heard that. You always learn something. I felt like there was going to be a lesson or something that we could all take from that two and dial shop. So thanks for doing that. Now you just. You're currently the ambassador of Global relations at Butler University, and I think we talked a little off, and we're going to work backwards on all your accomplishments and how you've carried the light in different organizations. Pretty big title when you think about torchbearers. That title gives it. But what I'm more interested in is this Indiana Global Economic Summit, first one ever. I'd love to hear the story about how that worked and what's the attitude lesson of starting something like that in year one? And overall, what are you doing in your current position as the global relations liaison at Butler that has to do with attitude? So just maybe there's a whole bunch of stuff for you to talk about.

Sure. Well, you know, I'm so grateful to President Danko for giving me opportunity to serve at Butler and Butler University. As we all know locally, it's one of those things that mirrors the state of Indiana, in my opinion. You know, as I traveled around the world and represented Indiana from an economic development standpoint worldwide, outside of Indiana, the 49, as well as countries all around the world. You know, sometimes we are known as being very modest people. We don't boast about ourselves, we don't go around talking about ourselves. We just. We put our nose down and we get it done. And I think in many respects, that's. But the university is a very unique university. It's a very special place. I look at it as the preeminent university in our capital city of our state of Indiana. And I think there's deep meaning in saying that. In terms of the first ever inaugural Indiana Global Economic Summit, my hat's off to Governor Holcomb and the secretary, Brad Chambers. They just did a phenomenal job of this. This was conceived on a treadmill in Germany in 2017. I would wait, believe it or not, Glenn, I had to get up in the morning, I do a little exercise at 4 or 5 in the morning, get ready for the day. And I was watching TV on the treadmill over there, and I saw President Trump and Vice President Pence. Who gave my first opportunity at economic development was former Vice President Pence. I saw him at the Davos World Economic Summit, and I was watching him. And so I texted the governor. I learned to do that on a treadmill, to be efficient. And I said, what do you think about a mini Davos in the Midwest? And he wrote back a couple hours later. He said, it sounds good. What is it? I said, well, you know, we've got, you know, we've got 37 to 38 now. I guess 40, 41 countries have invested Indiana in a big way. You look at the Japanese automobiles, for instance. We have three plants, Toyota, Subaru, and Honda. There's not another state that can boast the level of involvement we have in the automobile industry beyond anybody when it comes to Japan. So I said, we've got 37 now, 41 countries invest in Indiana. We have got worldwide global companies that are headquartered throughout Indiana. We've got some of the best universities and colleges that are anywhere in the world. And why not? You know, so it's one of those questions, again, I think back to attitude. You know, I never get the quote quite right, but I always loved Bobby Kennedy. When Rose Kennedy said, you know, some people look at the world. It is, and say, why? And Bobby said, I look at the world as it could be and say, why not? And it was kind of that. It was a Kennedy moment for me, because I just wrote back to the governor, said, why not? We can do this. And, you know, and there were a lot of naysayers, frankly, that thought it was a little aggressive. It was maybe too much. Nobody would come. But again, the job, the Governor Secretary Chambers, did we plan this to be on April 22nd of 2020? Well, we all know what happened then. So while we started to form a playbook for it, and I talked to people in 27 different countries about it, which were all present. I would tell you as well, but we had to cancel it. So Secretary Chambers and team picked it up. I got to attend one of the days here in town. And again, 37 countries invested, 27 of them are here from all. And these were ambassadors and consul generals, business leaders, educational leaders, all coming to Indianapolis. And they rallied here, over 1,000 people to just discuss things that were all affected with in business. And it all, as you know, apropos of this conversation, it all starts with attitude. And you have got to have a positive can do attitude. I don't know why you'd get out of bed in the morning if you didn't have that.

Sure. So when you. When you think about. So that. When did that occur? Was that just recent?

Yeah, just recently. Just a couple weeks ago. It was actually over race weekend.

I'll be doing it.

Which was a great thing because, you know, back in 17, we decided, the governor and our team decided that we should really go all out in making the Indianapolis 500 our national international event. I mean, sometimes it's one of those things, like when I was a kid growing up in South Bend, and I'd see people at the gates in Notre Dame taking pictures. I'd say, what are they doing? Why are they here? Because we took it for granted. There it is. People travel to see this. Well, I think sometimes in Indianapolis, we take it for granted that we have IMs here. And if you drive by there any time of the day or night, there's people with that of kind taking pictures. So I thought, what an attraction to have all these people come in for the race. So we were hosted well over 35 countries at every single race beginning in 2017. I know it happened again this year with the Global Summit. And in the first five years, Glenn Five. The five winners of the Indianapolis 500 were from five different continents.

Yes.

Which I think is just absolutely phenomenal. And what Roger Pesky and Mark Miles and Doug Bowles are doing out there, it's just inspirational every time I see or think about it. And everywhere you go in the world, they know about the Enamels 500.

Yeah. Well, Penske certainly knows how to carry the light. When you said, hey, I think we need to do this, and you said there were naysayers. So, you know, Jim, there are people that have big visions, they have big goals. Some people think. Some people think big. Ladies and gentlemen, Jim Schellinger thinks big. You may be a person listening to this podcast that says, I am thinking big. I know I can do more with my life. I know that I have some ideas that are million dollar ideas that could be earth changing. And Jim, I know you had those same ideas. What's your advice to them? Like what are the questions you ask them? Do you have a plan? Do you have a strategy? You take on big stuff. And when people naysay, like what's your attitude when somebody starts naysaying? And for anybody out there listening that has a big goal that they haven't hit, what's your advice to them? What's your process? How do you go about manufacturing? What goes on in that head of yours? That's huge.

I think Energizer. Bonnie, you know, the thing is, is you cannot when you have an idea and a vision for something. And I'm humbled because I don't think it ever starts out that way as a vision, so to speak. And some people said, what do you think about this global summit and your vision? I'm taken back a little bit because on a day to day, moment to moment basis, I don't think of it in that way. But it really is. And you're right about that. And I talk about my humble background. I'm very proud of that. And I talk about it. Not to say poor, poor me, but I credit that for everything I am. If I hadn't had those roots, if I hadn't. You know, Glenn, as you know, back when we were kids, all we had were is a male young person sports. And we taught, we're taught so many values and so much about attitude when we play athletics. And now it's so great with Birch by and Title IX that it's everybody. Now it's not limited to a gender, it's everybody. And it's very inspirational. But I would tell people, when you think of something like the Indiana global summit and people start throwing things up, well, cost or oh, this puts a spotlight on Indiana, it's going to show that we're not as good as we should be, educational wise or we eat too much and smoke too much or we've got this and that and I look at somebody and say, well, we don't have an exclusive on that. And typically these big issues that we deal with in society, they're not solved by a person, they're solved by a team of people, a whole group of people. That goes out and unites toward a common cause. And I look at it as, this may be good, it may not be. I try to do my homework up front and then put some steps out there, and I just take off. And then when I hit that proverbial wall from back in the days when we watched Animal House, when the band went into the alley, when you hit that brick wall, you have a good attitude about it and say, well, you know what? We're better for giving it a shot. You go another direction. But I've had a blessing that most of the things I've thought of in those moments, the big ideas have come to flourish, but mostly because of the people that I surround myself with and have had the good fortune of having around me. You know, I always say, you know, we hear from great leaders all the time, you know, surround yourself, people that are smarter than you. Well, that's never been difficult for me. That is a long line of people letting you include. So it's never been hard to do that. But as you know, team is the deal. It's the magic word that gets things done. And as I said, secretary chambers and the team. And he'd be the first to tell you, he led the charge, he carried the torch, but the team did just an outstanding job.

Yeah, that's so great. Not an answer you get from many people that have done what you've done. But I think, ladies and gentlemen who are listening, I think what Jim's really saying is let's become more aware of who you're hanging around. Let's be more intentional about who you want to hang around. And it's not you that's going to get your big idea to the finish line. It's going to be you with a whole bunch of great people. And I think, man, that's just such great advice. I just love it. Let's talk a little bit about being the secretary of commerce. You broke records, flat out. You guys crushed it when you were tapped on the shoulder by Governor Holcomb. Quick question, like, what was the most intriguing world leader or ambassador? I'd love to know, like, somebody that blew you away when it came to their attitude. What country? Who was it? What dinner, what was said? And then I'd also like to know, and I'll follow up. You know, maybe you don't want to say it, but, like, who were you disappointed in? Or what went really wrong? So, like, your best experience as secretary of commerce and maybe your worst experience as secretary of commerce.

There are so many, as you can imagine, and what an inspirational job. And, you know, I. I said to somebody that day, glenn, and you think about this in your old athletic days or in your coaching days at the very successful, great Bishop Chitard. Think about in a football practice when you just were so thirsty you'd have given anything for a drink of water. And even sometimes when you got the drink of water, you still were thirsty. And I said, you know, when you have a chance to step up and serve. And I'd never done this before. I've been in the private sector my whole life. But when you have a chance to step up and serve and can have a positive impact on people, people's livelihoods and everything they do every day, it's a thirst you can never quench. It becomes something that you just live for. And that's what I experienced. And I was the leaders I met all around the world, and, you know, some of the best and brightest and most inspirational right here in our humble United States, all around the country. But one of the leaders that I was really impressed with was Prime Minister Modi in India, the governor. I met with him and his chief of staff just very privately. And I was absolutely stunned how much he knew about Indiana, with no notes whatsoever. And he took us back to Pan Am days. He took us through the development of the Colts and Pacers, and you name it, he had everything down and talked about how he campaigned, which I thought was inspiration, Chanel, and a credit to our leaders in America as well as Indiana. But he said, I campaigned on three things, increase the GDP in India and health. And the way I'm going to emphasize health is through athletics. So he said, I have the money. I need arenas, I need coaches, I need players, I need trainers. And if you think that was right about the time we were over there, that the Indiana Pacers played in Mumbai, which. Which was very inspirational. When they played the Sacramento. Is it the Kings? I think it is. Sacramento Kings. Very inspirational. The young kids that were there, it was amazing, you know, meeting Viktor Orban in Hungary, who can be very controversial at times in some of the stances he takes as a political leader, but, you know, doesn't make mean he's not fascinating. But I must. Justin Trudeau in Canada might be one of the most charismatic people I've ever met in my life. That walks in a room, talk about lighting it up. And again, it goes back to the attitude. He walks in with an attitude and you can see it on his face, and it's contagious. And I love that. And one of the things I also love is when I find somebody that's not got such a good attitude, whether they're having a bad day or whether they're just, that's the way they are. And I love to bring them out of that. That show. I love to get with them and start talking and tease a little bit here and there and find what their button is and get them to smile because, you know, it takes. I learned this one time back in grade school from Sister Aloysia Marie Holy Cross Grade school, it takes less muscles to smile than it does to frown.

I love it. I love it. And so when you go back to your days as the Commerce Secretary, pretty unusual that a Republican would tap a Democrat for such an important job. What was the attitude around that decision? Did you hear. Oh, my God. Are you sure you're going to go over. Was every. I'm sure everybody liked you. And it probably wasn't this big of a deal, but was there a sense that, man, what the hell's going on? This is the craziest thing in the world. Or just like, how did it happen and did you expect it? And then was it a potential. Was it thought of positively or negatively?

Well, I served on the board of the Indiana Economic Development Corporation, which we all know is the genius of President Mitch Daniels. I mean, forming that to replace Department of Commerce and make it a public private partnership was just an amazing, brilliant move on his part. And, you know, whether it's Pat Miller or Mickey Mou or Nate Feltman or Dan Hassler and Mitch Robe or Victor Steven, I mean, everybody that served has done just an amazing job in that service. And I think that when I was first asked to do it, the first thought that went through my head was, you know, I've never served public service and I probably should get back now. I might remind you, I think you knew this. I committed 18 months. I commit to five and a half years, but I committed 18 months for the remainder of then Governor Pence's term. And then, of course, Governor Holcombe. You can't say no to that guy. I mean, he is one of the greatest leaders of all time. And I hope he has some aspirations beyond being governor of the state of Indiana, because he has some talent and heart to bring to the whole world that could benefit us all in many, many years to come. So it was that call to service, number one. And then secondly, you know, I only, I have a small influence, a sphere of influence. It's tiny, tiny, tiny compared to see someone like yourself or even Governor Pence. But I thought, you know, if this sends a message even to that small sphere of people that, you know, it's. It's about. It's not about politics. It's not about Democrats and Republicans, and, you know, I'm not very technologically capable about being on this today is about as good as it gets for me. And that was probably a benefit back then because Laura and my wife was telling me there was some not so nice stuff said on the Block Trader and Benedict Arnold. And I was called a lot of things, and that was okay. You know, I mean, I was okay with that because the long and short of it is when somebody would ask me, I said, you know, boy, we did set records, you know, 119,220 or 626 jobs under Governor Holcomb in his first term. And I think about that and Glenn, all those jobs that we went after, all those jobs we were successful in getting, whether it be retaining Elanco and putting them on the GM site, whether it be emphasis and bringing over a company from India that's the largest technology company in the world with 240,000 employees, or Greenleaf Foods or, you name it, Dow, keeping them here, which is, you know, just Corteva now, all these things that happen. I never once saw a job that was labeled as a Democrat or Republican job. It was jobs. And I think that very similar to your experience as coach. You know, you have your rivals and you may play as cathedral, but at the end of the day, you have school colors, but you kneel down and you say a little prayer together for all your safety and health, because you all are after the same thing. And I think in the end of the day, that's really it. I think sometimes the politics part of it gets too exaggerated. There are attitudes, absolutely amazing people that affiliate themselves with the Democratic Party and amazing people affiliate themselves with the Republican Party. And I think that I think about that a lot now, post being secretary to think, wow, Democrat, Republican, what am I really? I'm a patriot. And I think it's not about party, it's about people.

Yeah, I love that. That's so good. With that said, before that job, you did something that most people don't do. I mean, when you think about the population of America and how many people say, I'll step forward to run for the governor or for the governor of Indiana, right? Man, talk about an attitude. So, like, I want to know what the attitude was when you agreed to do it or if you were forced into doing it because Sometimes that happens. Whatever. I'd love to hear the story when you said, all right, God dang it, I'm doing it. And then, like, what's the attitude of, you know, running for governor? Like, what all does that entail? What lessons did you learn that people can relate to? You know, look at. Just because you ran for governor doesn't mean that there's not a lot of strategies and answers for other people's lives. So just your whole experience with that and some of the great lessons you've learned.

Well, thank you for asking that. My general response when somebody brings up that time, I say, yeah, that was back when I was off my medication, but I'm back on. I've got control of it all. But, you know, I actually had some people come to me, some really noted people in the state in leadership positions, and little did I know I was a total novice. You know, this is back in 2006, you know, and I was a total novice to all of that. You know, my head was down, my nose was drawn. Buildings and things, which I was very content with, by the way. But I had some people come to me to say they just didn't think anybody was willing to step up. And little did I know. What I know today is, you know, I didn't know who Mitch Daniels was. I knew was our governor, okay? I knew he succeeded Joe Kernan, who was a dear friend of mine. And we had the same roots going to Holy cross Grade School, St. Joe High School in Notre Dame. I knew that, but I didn't know all the ins and outs. And we really want a great governor. He really was so. And his legacy has proven that. But I was asked to do this, to basically carry the banner for the party. And I agreed to do it. After a lot of thoughtful prayer and things and talking to Laura and talking to the boys, I actually went up and met with my. My extended family and my siblings. And again, it was all back to those two very simple things. I pointed out why I agreed to be secretary is it's a public service, and I've never done that before. One of the regrets of my. Well, I say I go back. I wouldn't do anything different, and I wouldn't. But one of the things if I really wish I had done is I wish I had served in the military. I wish I had worn the uniform and served our country. My son is doing that right now, as you know, a descendant of yours. And you coached Captain Zach Schellinger, who's out in California camping Hamilton. My father, his Brothers, they all served. But we were in a time where, you know, we didn't have recruiters coming to our high school, and the Vietnam War left the bad taste in everybody's mouth, and so nobody was just smart enough to sign up. But, you know, the people that put that. Put that on the line. And we lost a great one just recently. Byron Bueller, who used to be the head of the blood bank, he served in Vietnam. And the people that did that sacrificed something that is unbelievable. And. And in a humble way, I would say that Laura and I, we sacrificed a lot in running for office. Yes, we were. You know, this is a big state, a huge state, and there's 92 counties, and I was at every one of them at least three or four times. I was in Lake County 27, 20 times. But the experience, as you mentioned, never. It never fails. You go there on your 28th time, and so we say, where have you been? You never come up here. Well, I didn't. I missed you the first 27 times I came. But, you know, it's really blocking and tackling and getting down on the ground. And I. I just figured that my background and I think those that came to me that suggested I. I take on this challenge, I think my background was a little unique for it. You know, I didn't grow up in a political environment. Honestly, I don't know if my mom and dad are Republicans or Democrats. It wasn't an issue in our household, I'm guessing with eight kids and, you know, they're probably Democrats, you know, but. But the point is, is to me, it wasn't about that, but the sacrifice it took, which I applaud anybody that's doing it and serving, and I didn't even serve. I just ran to serve. But, you know, it was a lot. Zachary, who I now say is a captain in the Marine Corps, you know, we missed his eighth grade year, essentially. I was on the road every day everywhere, and. But you also meet incredible people, and you are inspired every day by the people you meet in this state. Just phenomenal there, you know, we talk about who's your hospitality. It's not just a phrase. I mean, I serve on the Capital Improvement Board. And I used to remember I'd be outside and somebody said, you know, they write letters, letters after they'd leave Indianapolis and said our convention was the best ever been. They said, I walked out of a hotel and I wanted to find St. Elmo's. And I asked somebody and they said, well, just come on, I'll walk you over there and walk them eight blocks to St. Elmo's. That's just the way we are as people in Indiana. And that's a humbling thing, but it's who we are. And I got to see it up close and personal when I ran for governor.

And so when you think about those times and all the people you met, certainly there had to be somebody and maybe it was somebody that was very poor, maybe it was somebody that was handicapped, maybe somebody was sick, could have been a billionaire. When you think about carrying the light, is there a story about where you had that you met somebody that you didn't expect to impact you as much as they did? And who was that and what's that story?

Well, that is a long list. I remember I gentleman that came up to me one time and shook my hand and left a penny in it and he said, I give you a penny for your thoughts. How can my life be better? Wow, those are humbling moments. And you know, as secretary and the governor experiences too. You know, you drive around the state of Indiana and you go to Starbucks or McDonald's at 10 o' clock at night and you see kids in there that are working because they need access to WI Fi and you know, statewide Internet is just got. I know it's a priority to governor. I know that people in both chambers and general assembly support it. It ought to be an all out cry to get that done across the state of Indiana. But to have that access to put everybody on a level playing field. But there were inspirational people everywhere you met, everywhere you went and you see people that serve on a real local level. This is the most important thing they're doing. And what are they doing? They're serving chicken at a Jefferson Jackson dinner or something. But you know, they're involved and that's why I tell young people, you know, one time I was asked by a group of young people when Indie Hub started and they said, how did you get your network established? I kind of laughed. I said, network? What the heck is a network? I said, I guess I do have a network, but I don't, you know, I don't remember. I guess when I moved in after I didn't know anybody, you know, and I came down here and I got involved. I joined the Mac Heart of Mary and I started getting involved. That led to a lot of different things. And you know, and I just, I tell young people all the time, get involved, get involved and do something and do something good for somebody. I used to tell Johnny that every day I'd Say, go to work, work or go to school, work hard, have fun and do something good for somebody today. And I think that if you use that as a motto or like the great Joe Bill, I'll never forget your words in his passing where every day think about how does this get you closer to God in heaven? Every action you do that's stuck in my head ever since then. And I think that that's just the deal. You just meet these wonderful people that are giving of their lives and you meet somebody. You know, you're outside of a gate at an automobile plant at 4 o' clock in the morning when the shift changes in the cold weather and you see what, you know, the working men and women of our state are doing every single day in every single walk of life. And it's inspirational. And you can't help but when you do that to realize that if you can fulfill that, it's fulfilling a calling. It's not a. You know, I don't know how people get. I don't know how somebody would get motivated to serve politically over wanting to be in the political realm or wanting to have that notoriety or that title. I. I would think you'd crash and burn instantly because you have to have a deep, deep feeling in your very soul of why you're wanting to serve other people. Otherwise it isn't going to happen.

Wow, that's so powerful. Spirituality is such a huge thing. And one thing you gave. I'd love to know your lesson. This. Jim coached my boys for the New York Yankees at Haverford Little League. Very successful. You had a great run, lots of wins, lots of rings. What did coaching young kids and your kids in baseball, what did it give you? What attitude lesson did it teach you?

Well, I think the most impressive thing. And I had such a great. I never was going to do that. I said, I will never be a coach of my sons. Because when my dad was a little coach you and I'd get into it because I disagree with the lineup or something, I'd say, I'll put this person there. They're better than this person. He'd say, jimmy, it's not about wins and losses. I say, dad, it's all about wins and losses. But that was. So when I had the opportunity, I said, okay, I'll coach. They didn't have a coach, as you know, and asked if I'd step up and do it. And I said, okay, you know, I'll do it. But I had Nick, my son, my oldest son, who turned 40 this year, as an assistant My son Johnny helped out. Zach was on the team. And I just said, I can't go to Little league baseball four nights a week. And then on a weekend, too. I don't have time. So we did it, and it was an amazing experience. But I think that there it goes, from A to Z. I think, you know, someone like your son was an. Anthony was an amazing baseball player. So was Zach. So seeing those kids fulfill their potential is really, really fun and interesting. But there was another young man that had never, ever made contact with the baseball, ever. And most times, he wouldn't swing the bat. And I'd say, you gotta swing the bat. It's okay to strike out. You strike out every time you go up to the plate. But you gotta swing the bat. You gotta be a player, you know? And the first time I worked with this young man, I worked with him, his father would come to the game. How many of us know what that's like where dad's out there ridiculed, yelling, screaming. And I'd say to him, I'd say, you know, Grant, it ain't. Your dad's not out there. Your dad's not ridiculing you. And he's not trying to tell you get ahead or do this or that. You know what your dad's saying out there? He's telling you he loves you. He's telling you what he wants you to do to be successful because he wants to see you succeed. So every time you hear him, because it used to drive him crazy, I said, just keep in your mind, your dad's yelling out, he loves you. So working with this young man and to see the excitement when he hit a foul ball, it was just incredible, awesome. And he get three hits that year. And just to be able to see somebody that had zero potential and many, many challenges to do something beyond even their greatest expectations, to me, that's beyond words. You can't put that into words, and you can't buy it on ebay.

Yeah, Swing the Bat. Probably the title of your next book or your new book. What a great. Just a great, great piece there, coach. That was awesome. I just want to touch on entrepreneurialism. I want to touch on owning a business. I'm not sure if you started CSO or not. I think if I remember you, you worked your way into becoming an owner there. But because I want to respect your time, I'd love to just have a brief discussion on your thoughts on attitude of entrepreneurialship, the people that own small businesses listening to this podcast today. What was it like for you, what did you say to yourself when it was time for you to take the helm of CSO Architects? And why did you make the decision to do so much for so many for so little? Because I know you did. I saw Master plan cso Master Plan cso. Right. And I'm going, do they pay for this? And I don't think many of them did. Give me your entrepreneurial thoughts.

Well, that was actually one of the perks of being in a leadership position is being able to do some in kind work for people. And we did a lot of it. But you know, the common denominators are that they are in life, it's all team, team this. I never did anything by myself. And you know, I talk about people say, oh, Jimin's the architect on the airport. Well, there was a bunch of us on that airport project, you know, yes, my stamps on it. But that doesn't, you know, I didn't do that by myself. It's always about a greater group of people. Now, Interestingly enough, in 1984 when I graduated, it was a recession. This should be something. I guess we put this under the title of perseverance.

Yes.

So in 1984, I sent my resume out to 10 firms in Indianapolis. Now prior to graduating, oh, Santa Barbara, Boston, and I thought of the glamorous places. But then I realized that my extended family was big, you know, siblings and nieces and nephews. And I didn't want to leave Indiana. So I sent my resume to ten companies in Indianapolis. I got nine Dear John letters. One firm didn't respond to me, Glenn, but nine firms did. And of those nine firms, seven said they would keep my resume on file, but they weren't hiring. And the other two of the nine said, we'll interview, but we're not hiring Now, Glenn, this was in August of 1984. On October 3rd of 1996, I became the President and CEO of the firm that did not respond to me.

Wow. Now that's a track.

I did my internship at a small firm, Cole Associates here in town. And through a friend I got an opportunity at CSO which was already well established. It was established 1961. And so I just got on board and do what you do. I was a project manager and I worked projects and I worked hard. You know, I've told people when I had the privilege of speaking at the International School a couple years ago, and I said to these young people, I said, you know, I've wanted to be here and do this so bad. And I Said because you're all so smart, you some speak two, three, four languages. And I said in about 20 minutes here you're going to see that I'm not a very intelligent person. I said I was waiting to see Benjamin Yahoo over in Israel a couple of months prior to that. And I said his chief of staff said, you're really going to like the Prime Minister. He's a really smart guy and he's funny. He's got a 200 IQ. I had to ask if that was good. So you know, I wasn't quite sure what that meant. But you know, so I say intelligence. I separate that from smart because I think intelligence is a God given thing in my little world. By my definition, intelligence smart is something you work for. You know, I always had to work three, four times harder than most people did to get that same grade. And I never regretted that or wasn't a problem. It just took a lot more and I use that. I guess I did the same thing when I went to work at csl. You know, I, I came from being a steel grinder for God's sakes. You know, I mean when I thought I'd get to work early the first day at 7:30 and I'd beat everybody in there and places full when I got there and at 6:30 I couldn't wait for people to start going home so I could go home. And we were just all there because of the love of the work we did. And I'd always tell the young architects, this is really important, Glenn. It serves me well, my life. I'd always tell him, every time you get out of bed in the morning, be excited, get pumped up and excited who you are and what you do. Because every day you get out of bed you have the privilege and opportunity of altering the surface of God's earth every day. But that comes with tremendous responsibility and you've got to take pride in it, put responsibility in it. And every day you get up and do that, you have an opportunity to improve people's lives. Teachers become more successful with their students, accountants with, you know, whatever it is. So our job is always to, you know, to provide a quality service and use our total design skills. But it was always about enhancing and improving the client's success. It's all about, it's all about other people. And I think that that outward focus has served CSL well. It served me well and I think to this day they're sustained on that philosophy.

I love that man. That was just another unbelievable nugget for our listeners to Take with them how to wake up in the morning. And, you know, we cover this, guys on. We've had two seasons of the Good Attitude podcast. A lot of this is happening. This is being said in a different way, and it's so good. And you talked about perseverance and. And attitude booster number eight is love adversity. And we all know that adversity is the mother of perseverance. There is no perseverance without adversity. What's your. Lookit, you've had to have some adversity in your life. Tell me your secret to busting through adversity. How do you look at adversity? Was there a time in your life you want to share where you busted through some adversity and there was a lesson there?

Well, I think my whole life has been about that, you know, I mean, you know, for this little chubby fact down on Beale street in Keller park neighborhood to come all the way I came, I, you know, as secretary, I got to speak on a panel discussion, Notre Dame, with the dean of the business school and a dean of another college. And I thought, oh, I wish my mom was alive to see this. You know, little Jimmy from across the river has grown up, and I had opportunities that my parents presented us with and. And our teachers and our coaches and friends, and I just always took advantage of them. I just did the right thing. I wish I had some rocket science advice to give you. It was just like people say, work smart. It's like genius of the End by Jim Collins and Jerry Porse in the book Built to Last. It's genius of the ant. And I guess for me, you'll have to help me here. Glenn. I don't know if it's a bumblebee or a goose, but there's something, an animal that flies, and. And they say statistically, mathematically, it cannot fly, but it does. And they said, because nobody told it, it can. Right? And I guess that was. As I look back on, you know, as I've gotten older now, and I say that I'm on the downward slope, Lord says, no, you're not. Don't say, I said, I'm not gonna live to be 124, but as I get to be older and learn from all these lessons, you know, I take from, I just realized, you know, the opportunities. You got to work hard and you got to work smart, but there's, you know, you only get so much done, and you only fulfill your entire. The destiny you have within your heart and soul and your mind will only Be fulfilled if you maximize every aspect of it. So it's not about working smart, but it is about working smart, but it's about working hard. You got to do it all. And I think that in the end of the day, if you focus and one of the things I felt like at cso, we had a family. It wasn't a business, it was a family. And we watched out for each other. And everybody in that firm knew that we cared about each other, and we more so than we cared about our own needs. And again, that's not something you can fake. You know, when I was a paper boy as a young man, my brother handed it down to me, said, when a dog starts to chase you, just look at it real firm. Don't look scared, because it'll come at you. It can sense if you're scared. And, you know, I think there's a lot of truth to that. And I think when you're a leader, you can't fake it. I mean, you can. You can give speeches and you can give pep talks and you can do everything you want, but the people that you have the privilege of serving and leading, they know there's. They have an instinct and they know. And it's only when you really, really deeply care about the people around you and their success that you have any chance of reaching your own potential.

Yeah, that's so good. I want to. Now, this has been just so good, Jim, and thank you. And I think the answer gappers. What I heard Jim say is I never focused on the adversity. I was oblivious to adversity. I woke up and had the right attitude. And adversity wasn't even part of your game. And it wasn't an excuse. It was just a non factor. And so for those of you who are listening right now, whatever you think you have as adversity, you know what? It's time to get the attitude and flip the switch. And maybe it's time to say there is no such thing as adversity, only opportunity that presents itself as adversity. And I think what. That's what Jim was saying. And certainly the energy, the karma, the vitality of others pushes you through any adversity that may be there. So we're going to go ahead and wrap up the show with this thing called knowledge through the decades. I'm sure this is going to be really good and really fun. And what we want to do is just know the attitude lesson as we walk through your life. This is totally spontaneous. We can edit it if you want. It to. But I have a feeling you know how to think on your phone feet, so you will. We're going to ask you the attitude lesson that you've learned going through your life. And I know that you probably don't remember being born, but when you think about new birth, when you think about the grandchildren that just were born to the one that's getting ready to happen, what's the attitude lesson of being born?

Well, I think that, again, the blessing that I got was from my parents. They made. Even though we had eight kids, and it made each one of us feel special, it made us feel important. I Remember on my 10th birthday, my mom came out and she gave me a little windbreaker jacket, and she said to me, you've lived a decade. And I thought, wow, you know, I wasn't real sure what all that meant, but many of the lessons I still use to this day I learned when I was 4 or 5 years old. You know, I told you we lived in this tiny house, right? We moved when I was five years old. The house closer to our school, it was two stories, so it had a bath and a half. Still three bedrooms, but bigger. Dining room, kitchen. And a year after we lived there, my sister, we came home. My dad said, we gotta go down the old house and paint because the renters are moving. And my sister Mary Claire said, oh, we can move back, Glenn. We moved back to that house, that tiny little house, and we lived there until I was a junior in high school. So I think that was a real lesson, is that it's not about the place, it's about the people.

I love it. I love it. So you already went to 10? Not about the place, about the people. That's a real good one. But I want you to go back to being 10, even though you gave us a little windbreaker story. You'd been fourth or fifth grade. Think about your friends. Think about your school or your family. What was an attitude lesson that you learned at 10?

Well, you'll love it. I'm sitting there smiling because it just popped in my head. You know, again, I talk about my mother, God rest her soul, my father. But Boyd was an incredible man, too, as are my siblings. But, you know, when I was. I think it was right about 10, because I was in fourth grade, and I remember my mom that was with her, she went to church in the confessional, and she walked out, and she said, you want to make your confession? And I said, I'm not supposed to. I don't make that till sixth grade. And she said, you can do it right now. So she said, father Tom will do it. So he came out of the confession. She said, sure, come on in. And I sat down and he kind of walked me through it. And I did my first confession and I walked out and my mom said, you get your penance? I said, yes. And she says, all right, come with me. So at our church, beautiful Catholic church in South Bend, Holy Cross, still a beautiful church, Romanesque design. It's one of my favorite architectural pieces I've ever seen in my life. And there's this huge crucifix, but over the side there's Mary statue and there's a Joseph statue. And she walks me over and she kneels down, says, kneel down in front of Mary. And I said, okay. And she said, when you have something, you say three Hail Marys to the Blessed Mother. And I'm sitting here as a little 10 year old thinking, well, why don't we just go to the big guy? You know, he just moved 25ft to the left here, and we're right there. And she goes, always pray to Mary because a son can never deny a mother's request.

I love it. I love it. That's so good. Oh, my gosh, I love it. All right, well, let's move to 20. 20 years old, you've graduated from South Bend, St. Joe's you find yourself at Notre Dame. Do you remember your 20th birthday? Do you remember being 20 at Notre Dame? And what was the attitude lesson you Learned there at 20?

Well, I broke my wrist on my 20th birthday at the Tool and I shot. You know, I turned 20. You know, you want to do something fun. But I, you know, I was, I wouldn't pass up making the money, missing a night, work. So I remember going to work and I was moving a piece of steel and I should have used the hoist. I didn't. I tried to move it by hand and it fell over and broke my wrist. So that was how I celebrated my 20th birthday. But it was, you know, I think that my high school years were extremely formative for me. You know, again, being at the high school I went to and being involved and things I was involved with, I think that's where I came into my own. I'd already had some pretty good luck with athletics, so that just carried on. But then I really worked hard in school and I was able to get really good grades, which was a little bit different than some of my other friends that weren't as lucky as I was. But, you know, so those years in high School were extremely formative for me.

Yeah. So coming into your own that you really felt like that happened to you at 20, you became, you know, the base of who you were. Now let's take you up 10 years, 30 years old. Do you remember where you were, where you were working, your birthday at 30. And when you think about being 30, what was the attitude lesson that you learned in that decade?

Actually, I apologize, I don't want to go backwards here, but you know, I turned 13 and actually broke my ankle playing volleyball. I don't always break bones, you know, but I have occasionally. But I broke my ankle on that day when I turned 30. I turned 13 on Friday the 13th in 1973 and broke your ankle.

That's appropriate when I'm 30.

You know, I guess you come in that point. I've got children now and there's a whole different perspective on life. And I think when I was 30 with my kids is I realized that, you know, here I spent my whole life Catholic grade school, Catholic high school, Catholic college and my whole life and you know, our goal is always to stay true to the gospel of Jesus Christ and to be Christ like. And I think in my 30s was when I realized that having children, that, that is the most Christ like you'll ever be able to be in your life. Because you know, that baby, if you don't take care of that baby, it dies. Everything about that baby relies on you. And so I think that it was in my 30s where I probably developed my sense of responsibility and, and realizing what an incredible gift that was to have children and to now focus on their well being.

Man, that's so good. All right, so now you slide into 40. Tell me about the attitude lesson at 40 or in your 40s. What, what did, what was going on with your life then?

Well, you know, when you get to that, that age of 40, you start realizing, you know, I guess your mortality because, you know, in my family I lost a brother that was 43 years old that died of a massive heart attack. I lost another brother, 53, that died of cancer. I lost a brother in law that died of brain cancer, he was 52. And I lost a 26 year old sister in law that died from a geoblastoma thing. So life in the 40s, I think I defined that as becoming. That's when I really realized how precious life is. And when you, you have to experience that sadness and pain that comes from losing a loved one, that defines my 40s for me. I had so many people come to me. My Brother passed away. Worst 72 hours of my life. I had to go get him out in Seattle because he just died suddenly at the airport coming home for Christmas and his 11 year old son was with his wife. And people would ask me, how did you ever get over him dying? I said, you don't get over that. And I said they'd ask me, Glenn, they say, is it shaking your faith in God? I said, no, it strengthened it because, you know, I want to see him again someday. And how's that going to happen? Well, it's going to happen by being good and go to heaven, have eternal salvation. So I think that in my 40s was when that mortality, the realization came for that and then understanding what that meant and what did I want to do, you know, given that I could see, you know, life goes on. I said, when you hit 40, then you realize that 23 years prior to that you graduated from high school. And that seems like it went by in a flash. And you realize that when that next 40 or next 20 happens, you ain't gonna be here. So it's an awakening.

All right, so 50 things started getting interesting for you, I'm sure, right? I mean, vast majority. For many people, life can take a turn. I think the idea and the wrestling with mortality can propel you into new thoughts and new things. And I think maybe this is when you really started taking off on the service end. But when you think about turning 50, do you remember turning 50 and what do you think the attitude lesson is through your 50s?

I do remember 50. And the reason I remember that, as you know, my, my brothers and I all wore number 50, I don't know, 16, 17 years in a row. So 50 has always been kind of a family favorite of the boys. But you know, I think that when I hit, when I was in that, I don't remember the day, I don't remember the exact time of year, whether it was 49 or 51. But I think that's when I got in a position where I was pretty much in control of my destiny. I was in control of a lot of other people's too, or had an impact, I shouldn't say control. I had a potential impact as a leader. And so I think when I hit my 50s is when I realized, and I was in a situation very, very fortunate to where I could get back. I could give to things, I could donate time architecturally, I could donate things to people. I could could really become a player because I had the resources and in some ways I had more time than I did when I was earlier, just trying to fight off the waves. But an experience I had in my 50s, which doesn't seem very long ago, but I went out to a game nor Day was playing the Washington Huskies. And my family And I, maybe 15, 16 of us, you can imagine, go to a football game. And we're down in this alley in downtown Seattle at an Irish pub. And as we're going into the pub, I saw a guy that was homeless in a little alcove of the back of an old building in an alley. And I couldn't get my mind off of him the whole time I was in the restaurant. And I just kept thinking, I should get him something to eat, I should get something dry, I should give him some money. So I tucked a $20 bill in my palm of my hand. I said, I'll just slip this to him when I come out. I don't draw any attention to it, you know, we came out, he was gone, and I felt bad and walked the end of the alley, and I'm trying to herd cats and say, come on, everybody, we gotta go. And I see him back in the alley. And so I turned to Laura and I said, here, take this and run back there and give it to that guy. And she said, why? Just do it, Just do it. So she runs back and does it, and she comes back and her dad says, why are you doing it? And she said, well, Jim wanted me to take a $20 bill back there and give it to this guy. And he looked at me and he said, why would you do that now? Without thinking, just like this little thing you're doing here, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50. Without being able to premeditate my thought, I just said, could be Jesus, right? And I think that's carried me a long time since then of understanding that everywhere you go, you know, we talk about adversity. Man, I have no adversity compared to what some people have.

Yeah, isn't that true? And I think Jesus tells us, whatsoever you do for the least of my brother is what you do unto me. So it in fact was Jesus. All right, well, now you're in your 60s, so I want to know about what you're thinking about. 60 and what, 60 to how. I don't know how old you are. You're 60 something, 62. So you just hit it. And so like, what's your, you know, as you sat there and blew out the candles at 60, what. What was your thought? What's the word? What's the attitude that you're taking into 60.

Well, you know, when you get to that age, they don't put individual candles on cake anymore. They put the number. You know, it's interesting. 60 years old. When I turned 60, boy, you know, it's like, well, first of all, you feel like, you know, you're, you're getting up there. And I'd been all over the world at that time, and I've got to meet just incredible people from every walk of life that I had no right to meet, no, you know, just a privilege to meet all these people and to be doing what I was doing. And I think that for the 60s, for me, I think it's more again, it's all about the family. It's about the grandkids. It's now more about. I've done some of the major things I wanted to do in my life, and now I want to try to help other people accomplish what they want to do in life. You know, at Butler University, the charge the president asked me to do was to help Butler become even more top of mind nationally and internationally than it already is. And so that's something I've taken on and very proud to do that because I believe, and I believe in Butler University. And so when you believe in something as you know, it's a lot easier to deal with it than not deal with it. But I think, you know, I think real estate, okay. So when I turned 60, I think I started thinking about real estate. And the reason why, Glenn, is because, knowing your business, I was out of the country and my wife sold our house. In fact, somebody I know here helped her. Yeah, and it wasn't for sale. That's the catch. You know, she sold it. Well, I was out of country and she called me and she said, I sold the house. Now, we talked about selling it because we wanted to downsize a little bit. We're empty nesters. But, you know, she took me off guard and she said, I sold the house. And I said, okay, well, you better go find one and buy one. I said, and this time, you know, I bought that house as, you know, to renovate it, fixed up, sell it. So I said, this time, buy a house you really, really like. And she did. And we moved in here about a year and a half, two years ago, thanks to you. And then my attention right away turn to real estate again. And somebody says, well, you just moved. I said, in that kind of real estate, we're talking Crown Hill real estate.

Right.

You know, I really, on a serious note, I've had to go into Five family members when they passed away, that had zero preparations, right? And when you're in that moment of grief, then you have to deal with that. Well, I don't want to put anybody through that. So, again, I. I'm like, Yeah, I feel 60. Come on. I feel like I'm 20.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a new 40.

60. It's. It's. It's really crazy. You know, sometimes when I see a picture of myself. I'm sorry, who is that? You know, I mean, that looks like my. My dad or my uncles or something. I mean, you know, you don't feel the way you look necessarily.

And they all tell, oh, you look just like your father. I'm like, oh, I must be getting old here. Well, Jim, that was so good. The ladder of Jim's life. And as we just walk through this, I want all the people listening to the podcast, all the gappers, to check themselves on 1 to 10. You know, he said childbirth and new beginnings are a blessing. And I ask yourself, how blessed do you really feel? And if you don't feel blessed, what can you do to feel more blessed? He talked about 10 and the respect and the aura of a mother. And what a great story you did. Those of you out there, if you're having a conflict with your mother, you know what? Now's the time to fix it. At 20, he became independent. How independent are you really in your life? Are you relying on too many other people? Are you letting your success be limited by other people's thoughts? Or do you finally believe in yourself and know that you have the fortitude to do it? And then at 30, he talked about the massive responsibility that he felt when he had kids. And do you take an inventory of your responsibility? How responsible do you feel? And are you responsible to win, is what I like. There's people that I believe use responsibility to lose, to make excuses, and there's those people that take responsibility and move forward. Then at 40, the mortality of things, gappers, you know, have you questioned your mortality? And have you thought about those around you who maybe have gone before you, and maybe those that are on the edge right now, what are you doing for them? And then in the 50s, the word impact came through. And no matter if you're 50 or if you're 20 or if you're 30 listening to this, or if you're 80, your ability to impact is an attitude. Creating an impact is an attitude, and I hope that you take that with you after this interview. And then preparation and service at 60 was his final two things. And do you have a heart of service? Who are you serving? When people look at am I giving value? Well, value is defined as what you do for someone on behalf of someone before you ask them to do anything for you. And that's really the foundation and attitude of service and preparation. So, Jim, those were awesome. Your interview is fantastic. We always like to give you just one last word in the podcast. You know, whether you're standing in front of a baseball team or a football team or your company at cso, there are people listening to you today that came here to bridge the gap from who they are to who they want to become. They're bridging the gap from where they are to where they want to be. And I'm hoping that you can just give them a few words from your heart, heart and your soul. On if somebody's standing there at that bridge trying to get across it, what's your best advice and what's your hope for them and the hope for the future of our listeners?

Well, you know, the definition, I learned literary definition of romantic is somebody that longs for the past and looks forward to the future and doesn't do so well living in the present, which is something I have to work on every day. But you know, when you do stuff and you go out and do it for other people, you realize how fun it is and what you get from that is just, it's energizing. We talk about attitude. You know, if you have an issue with your attitude on a given day, go do something nice for somebody and see how that changes your attitude. And that's because it's fun. And my father in law, I don't know, I'm guessing this isn't an original, but we'll give him credit out Seattle, Washington for this. But his definition of fun, anything you don't have to do. So I think that's something that we don't have to necessarily help everybody around us, but it's fun to do it right.

I love it. Well, Jim, I want to thank you for carrying the light through your life, to your family, to your company, to our state of Indiana. But most of all, we want to thank you for carrying the Light on the Get Attitude podcast. This is Glenn Bill with Jim Shelliger signing off. Jim, thanks so much.

Thank you.

GL.