Further Discovery: State Funds Helping America's Seed Fund Go Further

Okay. Well, I think we officially start at 2:40. One more minute. It was a really great session earlier. I enjoyed learning about how different all the programs were.

Yeah, there's a lot of variety. I was very glad that John and Cindy and Charlie could all join.

Absolutely. I was the director of the SBDC at Temple University, and we won one of the, you know, prizes to help facilitate people to get sbir, you know, to complete the grant application. And then we were working with energy and companies and trying really, really hard to get people into that first round because it is so much work. Right. I mean, those applications, especially the first time you see them, are intimidating, right?

Yes.

Well, another reason we didn't even get into it because it wasn't that long of a session. But another reason I always enjoy giving a talk about the matching programs that John in particular is that one of the hats that he wears is working with academic researchers who are interested in evaluating these programs. And there's been a lot of interesting research, at least that originated at unc, although I think everyone I know who was involved is maybe at different institutions now, but looking specifically at the impacts of the state matching programs. So it's great to have that kind of rigorous background to if these programs matter. Yep.

Yeah. One of the things I thought was common among all of the participants in the panel was the state allocation and how you're not necessarily in control of your own destiny year to year because of the budget process which comes through the state. And I was really curious because, of course, you know, policy drives everything. And I was curious, John, to know what you do working with the state to try to increase your budget. And, you know, it's always that. How do you create the compelling narrative and what are you measuring? And these are long term investments. You can't go next year to back to the legislature and say this is what happened in the past year from this year's investment or whatever.

So.

Right. How do you navigate that so well? We definitely do track metrics, but like you said, it's hard to get an impact after just a single year. But we've been running the program long enough now that we do have kind of a track record of metrics. And actually it's pretty impressive when you aggregate over the years. But what we've also found is that the metrics are. They're often necessary, but. But often not sufficient. Now you've got to have them if asked. But in terms of getting money from the legislature, it matters as much that you have the right people not making the right Ask at the right time of the right people. And I, as an estate employee am not allowed to advocate on behalf of my own program. We do have a lobbyist at the North Carolina Department of Commerce who does that, but he also has a full suite of programs that he has to advocate for. And so we're just one of many. So this is where having a 25 member board comes in handy. Some are very politically well connected and others are not. But those who are often will step up and kind of go to bat. And what they can do is open doors and get meetings that if we're invited to participate, we then have the opportunity to present those statistics and those, and anecdotes to stories. Those go often as far as the statistics do. We also work with external organizations such as North Carolina Bio, which is the biosciences industry association organization in the state. And they lobby at both the federal level and the state level. And about half of the grants that we give out art to companies in the life sciences field. And so they have a very vested interest in this. And so they're in there lobbying just as much or more as our, you know, our Department of Commerce lobbyist is. So it's definitely a team effort. It's a, it's a little hit or miss and it's often not in our control. Our funding is non recurring, so we have to go back every year. Except this last year we were able to secure 2 million in recurring funding.

So oh, congratulations, that's huge.

We have at least 2 million. But that can sometimes cut both ways because if that winds up being both a floor and a ceiling, then, you know, say, well, you've already got 2 million, why do you need more? Then that can be, you know, can cut both ways. So we still have to go and advocate for more than that. But, but the majority of the time we've been successful.

That's great to hear. We have some questions in the chat. When you're selecting your businesses, what comes up as a red flag, like what hinders business from succeeding with sbir, sttr?

So just in general, do you mean with our, with our matching program or just in General with the SBIRS and STTRs?

You know, let's do both because I think that people who are watching this might, you know, are in all different stages of the process. Some people might just be learning that they're, that these programs exist and some people might really, you know, be experienced in the system.

So, so I'll go, I'll go first. So, and I should tell you I am not an expert with respect to the, you know, federal SBIR and STTR programs, even though we've been running this matching grant program since 2006 and I've read my share of applications, I have not, you know, received an application, an award myself, and actually executed on. On one. But usually there's at least two basic dimensions. There's the technology dimension, and there's always all sorts of ways you can fail on that dimension. And then there's the kind of business, business development dimension, and, and you can fail lots of ways that way as well. And so I'd say of the companies that we funded through the matching program, and we do kind of follow them probably more often than not, they are, I'd say maybe 80% of the time they do have the successful phase one and can apply for a phase two grant. And about 50% of those that do apply do win a phase two. And so technologically at least, they do seem to be succeeding, although there is a certain percentage that either just doesn't succeed technologically and the project ends. I think where it gets tougher is the farther along they go, the less it comes down to the technology and the more it comes down to the business dimension. And this is not my area of expertise, but I know you can have the greatest product in the world, but if you don't have the right plan, if you haven't done your customer discovery rights, you haven't done your competitor analysis, correct, and all the myriad other things that you have to do, it still can fail. And so the ways you can fail greatly outnumber the ways you can succeed. Now, with respect to our matching grant program, it's hard to fail in our matching grant program because essentially, if you get the federal award, you're basically eligible for the matching grant, assuming we have enough funding to fund you. Where companies might fail is if they're not compliant, submitting their reports or if they use the money improperly. There have been a few instances where we have had to either take back funding or cease giving additional funding because companies were non compliant.

Jason, do you have something to add?

Well, I'm going to try to publish a poll real quick and just trying this out. See if this actually shows up for people in the polls tab over there.

I see it.

Yeah, excellent. Good. Hopefully audiences as well. So be curious, if you wouldn't mind going ahead and clicking, let us know what type of organization you're with so we can kind of tailor conversation a little bit more. No, I think John did a great job of Laying out the many challenges that exist there, of course, for different companies. And always important to flag the ways that you can also just get in trouble with the use of state funds. As SSTI's President CEO likes to say, among his rules for economic development programs, don't do anything stupid. And certainly failing to use funds correctly or filling out required paperwork is. I think it's fair to put that into the stupid category. So, yeah, I was going to call it out.

All right, well, we have almost 30 people, but only seven people who voted, and I think I was one of them. So don't be shy if you're watching. We would love to know how we can best answer your questions or support you and give you the knowledge you need to succeed. So please help us help you by telling us you know where you're coming from. Looks like right now the majority of people are the small businesses. And then we have some esos with us and then some municipal or state government folks.

Yep.

Unless you're taking this poll and you're the state government person.

John, I took. Yeah, I'm one of those. I guess I'm the only one. Yeah.

All right. Forget the government stuff. Okay.

Okay.

We got small businesses and ESOs.

Well, seeing in particular the share small businesses in the audience. Share the link that I mentioned during the panel. I'm not sure if it popped up in the chat otherwise, though, anyway, that you can see it. This is the report that actually we worked on for SBA that provides a snapshot, at least accurate as of summer of 2021, on what state matching programs are out there. So if you heard, you know, whether it was John or Cindy or Charlie and you either are in one of their states or you're in a different state and want to know what kind of assistance might be available to you, you can check out this report and it should let you know if a program exists. We did try to make sure that these were programs that not only exist, but actually have had funding in recent years. Unfortunately, that can kind of change from year to year at times, as we talked about and talked about more now if anyone's interested. But again, hopefully this will give you a good guide to what might be available in your area.

Thanks for dropping that link in, Jason. And it looks like we have a question from Chris. He'd love to know what you love to see in applicants for state matching funds, what gets you excited about supporting some of these requests.

Good.

So I'll answer that. So our program does not. Is not competitive. And so again, if they meet the basic requirements and we have funding, they get funded. That said, we do get more excited about some than others. And one of the fun aspects of the job is talking with the companies. And most of them are happy to tell you a lot about their technology and how it's going to change the world and, and how much the funding that you're providing is helping them. And there's just no lack of cool, important technologies being developed and commercialized. And so there are some that are just so passionate that you could just listen to them forever. And so, you know, they may not have the best idea in the world, but they're. Some of the times their passion can make up for that. Some of the times they have both the passion and the great idea. It's a little bit easier, but. But it's inspiring talking to a lot of the companies. And that's a, that was a, that's an unexpected side benefit that I, I didn't think we would get when we created the program is that opportunity to speak with the companies and learn about their technologies.

Great.

Yeah.

I'll just speaking a little bit more generally since SSTI National Association. If you didn't hear me explain before what we are, we don't run a program like this. But when we talk with states that are interested in creating these programs, you know, oftentimes a big decision point is not just should you have a program like this, but then also as we discussed a bit in the panel, are you going to have it be generally open or is it going to be more competitive? When we're thinking about kind of if you're either because of limited dollars or because you want a competitive process, how to limit it down. A lot of things we would talk about recommending to states and that approach would be thinking about the companies that your capital can really help catalyze them to the next level. So not trying to necessarily be a value add in the company that gets a lot of mills, that's maybe a less exciting use of your funds than if you can take a newer company and get them to the stage where they can maybe actually become commercially successful. You know, that's obviously great. Most states have an economic development strategy plan where they're trying to specifically focus on some sectors. It might be a sector where they already have a great strength or a sector where they feel they've got some resources that can help them be a leader in a technology area of the future, like Charlie was mentioning. Or, or even if the state wants some economic diversification and they see maybe this area is something that they want to expand. So trying to align those companies up with what's in the interest of the state, I think is another important way to kind of think about prioritizing funds as well. And then certainly if there is a company that has a technology that is either going to, if they succeed, create a lot of jobs or solve a real problem for people, you know, oftentimes you make that case easily with life sciences, but you know, certain types of clean tech or defense tech as well, you know, I think that those are kind of the three areas to consider that I think make these funds particularly exciting.

You know, I know Charlie isn't here, but he said something really interesting about the state matching programs and what he, I mean, he runs a competitive program. John, you're running a non competitive program. But he said, you know, he really looks at the difference between creating a company or jobs and creating an industry. And I thought that that was, you know, kind of meaningful difference. And you've already said, you know, that you have certain sectors or industry clusters. And I think, you know, as we talk about building ecosystems, which is, you know, the big picture of why we're here, we really do look at clusters of innovative businesses that kind of go together. Industry sectors. So, and, and Jason, you were just talking about the fact that looking at the state and the industry sectors that a state is pushing, like what do you think about the idea of, you know, the importance of geography for these kinds of programs? Because it is really, you know, would you, would you suggest an entrepreneur move states if the industry they're looking at, you know, has a larger focus in another geography?

Yeah, well, I think there are a few really interesting things to pick up on there. One, first, the kind of orientation around the industry versus not something important, I think to point out about Massachusetts is that that is arguably on a per capita basis, you know, the strongest innovation economy in the country. And so I think it definitely is appropriate for them to have a very kind of fine tune a particular view on their program in a way that other states that are just trying to like, hey, we'd like our 15th SBIR award might take a very different approach to having a program like this. I just want to highlight that. But then in terms of a company and whether they want to move. So, you know, there are so many things that obviously go into that decision. Setting aside even the quality of life issues for, you know, the actual entrepreneur and the founding team or the executives, which are obviously huge drivers, there can be value. Certainly moving to a place that has A strong cluster. If you're in a business, if your role within that industry cluster is in a business to business environment, certainly being close to your customers might have some advantages to you. Or if you're really trying to use research from a certain type of in a certain sector. Or maybe I know some companies, they're even in a sector that's so specific that there are just not literally that many research labs that can even do the work to help them do their product improvement testing. So certainly thinking about relocating in those types of situations might make sense. I will say, and hopefully I'm not mischaracterizing this research. My understanding is that if you look at a lot of the academic research around clusters, you will see that an area that has a concentration does get benefits to sales and productivity that just go beyond what you might expect from the same companies if they're not concentrated. So I think at a regional level there is then also some value in that happening. Whether or not the individual company feels that might be a slightly different question. But those are a few considerations without trying to provide actual advice to companies not knowing their situation.

Yes, these are the personal opinions, not the advice of the SBA or any particular state. Although John might be trying to lure you.

We always welcome new companies in North Carolina, but our program is not designed to be an incentive program that lures companies in. Although there are companies that have moved because of the program that we run. The numbers relatively small, but there are it struck the legislation that authorizes the program structures it in a way that they can't move to the state, get the grant, and then just leave the state again. I mean, they have to stay. They have to have their principal place of business in the state and they have to stay with their principal place of business in the state for at least three years. And so it is designed primarily to help existing companies, although some companies do move and stay.

So there's actually a question here, not in the chat, but in the Q and A portion about options that are available in California for companies in biotech and life sciences. So those are two of the states that do not have have an SBIR matching program. So you won't find a program like the kind that we've been talking about available to you in either of those states. California in a lot of ways does not have as much on the kind of formal programming side for innovation companies. Obviously, California is several of the country's hotbeds for investment activity. And so the state just hasn't put as much I shouldn't Say that that's why. But you have seen the state not put as much state programming to this support. However, the University System of California certainly operates quite a few commercialization centers and entrepreneurial assistance centers. California is one of the states where the SBDCs, at least in many areas, are really good on tech and innovation. I think some SBDCs that maybe isn't quite the same level of strength, but from what I understand, California does really have that as a strength there with those centers. So it might be worth talking to in that front. And then there are also quite a few nonprofit as well as private incubators and accelerators throughout the state who might be able to help you on the Washington side. The state of Washington does make quite a few investments in clusters. I'm not sure off the top of my head if Life Sciences is one of the ones that they've invested in. There is a Washington Life Sciences association that works quite a bit with companies and engages a lot on the policy front as well and so should be able to help point you to some resources. And the University of Washington also is pretty active in supporting new tech companies out there and I would assume would have an interest in Life sciences as well. So handful of recommendations for you.

I love the focus on, you know, other ecosystem partners and I know we talked about the pipeline in the main session, but I would love to hear if you have other partners that you feel complement your work, John, besides the SBDCs, which are phenomenal. I might be a little biased, but yes, absolutely.

And so we, we don't work in, in isolation. We do work, you know, in an ecosystem. Every state has an ecosystem. The SB in North Carolina, it's called the SBTDC Technology Development center, is, is very much a partner with us. They help more on what I would call the front end or the pre proposal stage where they help companies learn about the SBIR and SGTR opportunities and, and apply for the right opportunities and apply in the right way. So they refer companies to us and then we refer companies to them as well. Another big component player in the ecosystem that we work with is the North Carolina Biotechnology center, which is a 501c3 organization that was, it's been around in North Carolina for more than 30 years now. And it really is, it's, it's comparable to the North Carolina Department of Commerce in many ways in that. But it focuses on the, on the life sciences. It has everything from early stage grants to loan programs to information resources to business recruitment and, and they refer people to us. We refer people to them. Particularly when a company has gone as far as they can go in our program but are ready for maybe a loan or for a larger later stage grant, which they potentially could get through the biotechnology center. We work a lot with the universities. A lot of the companies, probably at least a third to a half of the companies that we give grants to through the master program are either officially spin outs of the universities or if not spin outs, at least have some sort of linkage, either because they have an sttr, they have to subcontract with the university, or they just use the university facilities or something along those lines. So it's not just us and the companies by themselves. We almost always make some sort of referral to either an entrepreneurial support organization or a university that can help, you know, help them increase their success.

That's great. We have Kelly from Pennsylvania where I am. I'm in Phil. And yes, Kelly and I work together around SBIR sttr. So it's really, it's really nice that you get to see people in different places. Did you have.

Thanks for saying. I was just going to say Ben Franklin Technology Partners is a group we work with quite a lot and also somewhat similar to what John was describing with NC Biotech in the sense that they're very different in that Ben Franklin is a network and doesn't have a life science specific focus. But they are similar in the sense that both of those groups are what we refer to as venture development organizations, which we think is a really strong model. So those are the entities that, as John was describing, they provide the financing a lot of times investment, sometime loans as well. But then they also provide technology and entrepreneurship or business development services. And having all three of those at once since we were talking during the panel earlier, that really doing those things in tandem is really critical to a company. So you don't get your tech developed, but you don't actually have a market for it or you don't, you know, get too far down the road investing costs before you find out your tech won't actually work. Being able to do that all at the same time really does seem to have a lot of benefits that are greater than some of the parts. And so we love to see organizations like that. So just thought I'd take the opportunity with Kelly saying hello to bring that up.

Yeah, we're very lucky with Ben Franklin.

Yeah. Very strong work.

Yes. And yeah. So I'm not seeing anything. Any other questions in the chat or the Q and A? It's a great time to speak up, we've seen have more people joining us and less people speaking. They like us. They really like us.

I'm not sure if that was a comment to what. What I was saying, Jan, about. I'm just if that was a response. What I was saying is that in some states, we hear that the SBDC is not as effective of a partner in really supporting tech companies. SBDCs in many areas do really strong and great and needed work to help new companies, but a lot of times those services are more focused on bricks and mortar. And so I know in a lot of states, maybe there's one person at the state who understands SBIR a bit better. But oftentimes SBDCs and states aren't. Just many of them aren't set up to really help companies think through what it actually means to go through an equity investment process versus loans and just kind of the differences there. And tech commercialization plans, some are, and that's great, and some aren't, and that's totally fine. You know, ultimately what matters is less about who is providing those services and that those services are available in a region. And so working it out through partnerships instead of having it all in house is totally fine. So. And again, I recognize that's very different. It's a program that has, you know, 50 states, different approaches everywhere. I was just saying that some states, this SBDC is not maybe the best starting point for a tech startup that's.

Well, I completely disagree. As a former director of an SBDC at a large R1 research institution in Philadelphia, which is definitely an EDS and MEdS tech center. You know, the whole thing is that it's an EcoSystem and the SBDCs are generally part of an anchor institution and, you know, well connected in the ecosystem. And what we say in Philadelphia is it doesn't matter where you start, because we all communicate and we work together and we cooperate and we collaborate. So all you need is one entry point into the entrepreneurial support ecosystem, and you'll get to the right person whether it's at the SBDC or not. And that's actually the difference between the SBDC and the SBTDC that T stands for tech. So some SBDCs have that extra certification that shows and, you know, in the name that they specialize in that. But yeah, there are almost 1000 SBDCs. Every county has one, which is why it's such a great starting point is literally there's coverage everywhere. And as we know, there's not SBIR STTR coverage or programs or matching support in every county in the country. So yeah, and yeah, I said it. I'm biased. You know, I see a lot of SBDC people here and yes, super robust ecosystem in Pennsylvania. Shout out for our hometown. Hometown. All right, Ohio. Anybody have ideas for Isabella in Ohio Looking for protein based biotech. So agtech.

Yeah, so I mean, I'm SSCI International, but based in Columbus, Ohio actually. So Ohio has quite a few organizations. The state has funded multiple networks. There are a lot of support groups specifically looking for non dilutive funding, you know, depending on which part of the state you're in. So Ohio tends to focus more on regional networks as well, instead of having one central entity in your state. So Isabella, if you want to let me know which part of the state you're in, it can be a little bit more specific. But if you go to the state of Ohio's website, for example, Third Frontier. So in the Columbus area, great. So the entrepreneurial services, or maybe they call it Entrepreneurial Signature Partner now in central Ohio is Rev One Ventures. And so they're a great organization to look at. They're a venture development organization like I was talking about before. They provide tech and business assistance as well as mostly capital investment. So if you're not looking for that now, you know, you obviously you're not required to get an investment from them, but talking to them about other services they provide may be helpful. The state of Ohio also is very active in supporting manufacturing extension partnerships. That's another program that exists in every state in the country too. So that would be a place to look as well because you have that manufacturing focus that you mentioned there. And then of course, depending on where your tech is coming from or what you're doing, Ohio State University as well is obviously located in the area and the tech commercialization office provides quite a bit of support too. So those are three entry points to consider.

I didn't know you were in Columbus. I'm a Buckeye. I did my grad work at osu and it looks like Isabella Roger is making a recommendation. So I love the fact that we're all here to help each other. And then Chris. So check out the chat, which is pretty active with some of our, you know, people here jumping in and offering other assistance. Yep. We're all, we're all partners in this. It takes everyone and then some. We need more, more support and more people helping and, you know. Yeah. Any other questions that anyone sees coming up in the chat? I don't see anything but, oh, something just popped up in the Q and A. Biotechs and life science. Not sure that's a question.

Hey, Mara, one thing I'll add is, and this kind of follows up on your question about why companies fail, or is that a couple of years ago, one of my teammates and I, Dave Kaiser and I teamed up with a professor from the University of North Carolina at Greensboro who's an expert on federal programs like this. And we took all of our data over more than 10 years of our matching grant program and, and broke it down every way that you could and also did some kind of causal analyses in terms of what, you know, how effective, you know, what's the marginal effect of the state funding above and beyond, say, the national funding. And that was published as a book chapter. Of course, I don't remember the exact title, but it was, it was in the, the book was the Oxford Handbook of Local Competitiveness and it was one of many chapters in there. I don't remember the exact title, but anyway, if you Google Oxford Handbook of Local Competitiveness, my guess is you will, you'll find it and the chapter will come up. And I know it has North Carolina in the title and that has a lot of data in there about why the companies failed or the technologies. We asked them, we give them several options, why did this technology fail? And I don't remember what the results were, but there are some charts in there that show the distribution across the different possibilities. And so that may be useful as well.

That's great. Mary Lou has a question. Just how would she know if she can qualify for funding? Like where, where's a good place to start looking to see if this is a good program or if there are better fits? What are your recommendations here?

Yeah, well, one thing I want to make sure to highlight, Mary Lou, since you framed the question saying that you are a woman, a veteran and minority owned small business, so most public and nonprofit programs, one, they are going to be open to everyone and interested in working with any types of companies at a minimum. And actually many public and nonprofit programs are going to have specific initiatives, might be additional financing or additional programs that are going to be available to companies that are eligible in these categories that you've mentioned here. So I definitely wouldn't hesitate to reach out to groups like that and certainly believe that you'll be competitive in getting funding from them. In fact, we did a survey of the venture development organizations we work with and while still not at parity for some of the reasons that Charlie was discussing on the panel earlier, doing like in most cases at least 10x better than private sector like seed capital investors in terms of representation of founders that are in their company. So again, definitely look at those in terms of specifically what that means for who you want to look to. I would take a look at your state economic development agency, both in general, to see what kinds of financing programs they have. But then some states are going to have a science or tech or innovation focused authority as well, if it's not already part of the bigger state one. So looking there to see what programs exist in your state is a good way to go. As we talked about, many of the SBDCs are going to be able to provide you good guidance on financing programs that are available for all of this too. And if you're in an area like Ohio, like Pennsylvania, like North Carolina, Tennessee, Missouri, one of these states that has a number of regional innovation entrepreneurship focused nonprofits, then working with that local service provider is a great way to go too. If you have any university connection, certainly reaching out to your local university, either the Office of Technology Commercialization or Economic Development, if they have one, is a good way to go. Quite a few university programs, you have to be an alum or you have to be using university tech, but not all. Some of them are open to everybody whether you have an affiliation or not.

That's great. Mary Lou, did we answer your question or do you have any follow up? Awesome. She's happy.

I'll also add, I don't know where they source it from, so I don't know exactly how all encompassing it is, but I know quite a few groups. At least they get money from SBA to provide support to entrepreneurs are listed on this local assistance directory that I put in the chat here. There are other groups that exist beyond this, but at least you'll be able to find quite a few on this site.

And the other thing is, you know, build your community. I love to see, you know, going to trade shows and talking to other people in your industry and see how they did it. I think it's really great to learn from people who have been in your shoes and are a little farther along in the journey. I feel they often make great mentors or offer excellent advice.

And another resource for newer companies to be aware of. So the Treasury, U.S. department of the treasury has the State Small Business Credit Initiative that's provided program that existed in the past but has come back through the CARES Act. States are still in the process of getting their programs approved and then some states further have to stand up their programs. So it might be a while, but that program provided a total of $10 billion across the country. A little more than 9 billion of that is going to be available directly as capital for companies. And just about every state, more than, I believe more than 45 of the states are using at least part of their funds for investments. And those are all going to be targeted at relatively new companies. The max investment round, not even just the federal money, but the max investment round is 5 million. But quite a few states are targeting at the seed or series A level. So if you are a new company or if you're someone who works with new companies, paying attention to how your state is using the state Small Business Credit Initiative or SSBCI funds is a really good thing to do.

Yes, the government is here to help. I'm with the government and I'm here to help. Nine scariest words, right? Sorry. My political science side is showing there. Okay, other questions. Any other thoughts before people start to get ready for the next session?

Well, one thing I'll just add is a platform both for the companies and esos, certainly making sure you're sharing things that are working well for you. SBIR has.gov, i should say, has a list of success stories, but it gets out of date. So certainly making sure you guys add on the great work that you're doing or let the, if you work with an entrepreneurial support organization, make sure you go let them know when you have, you know, new sales for your tech or you have new employees. You know, John, like he mentioned, North Carolina, has that survey. But, you know, getting those stories out and surfaced makes the job of those of us who are not like John in the state government. And trying to advocate for funding these programs makes our jobs much easier. So make sure you're sharing your successes up the chain with everybody.

And I'll add on to that. Jason, you know, we obviously do track a lot of metrics with our, with our program, but in those surveys that we do, we ask for testimonials and the companies provide great quotes, things we could, you know, just level of detail, but personal information not about themselves, but about the company and the technology that we could never know through just gathering data. So that's really useful. And often testimonials go just as far or farther than data. And second, we actively write stories about our companies. And it takes a lot of work because if you want to describe something complicated in a way that you're trying to emphasize several points, Number one, explain what the technology is. Number two, explain that they were funded by the federal government through these programs with these acronyms and three, that they were also funded by a state program which also has an acronym. How do you make that digestible and interesting and understandable to people? And it takes a lot of work, but if done right, it really brings to life what otherwise can be pretty opaque to a lot of people or not visible at all. And so stories go a long way and it's worth your while to. To write up successes, like Jason said, and.

And doing it as you go, like John has described, if you're one of the esos or states or universities on the line, is so important because almost every time either a political office reaches out to me or someone has reached out to one of our members, it's like, you need to have that information tomorrow. Granted, they're not actually going to vote on whatever it is for like, eight months from now, but you need to have that information tomorrow for them to ever want to have a conversation with you again. So it's very hard to do to make up on the spot. You really need to do it as you go.

It's true. And a lot of those. A lot of your esos have to do quarterly reports and, you know, have metrics, and their. Their life hangs in the balance. Yeah, they're funding, not their life. Nobody's. All right.

There is one more question that popped in. I don't know what time this is officially over. So, Daryl is with a rural community college who has grant dollars to plan for an innovation hub focused on science and tech. So, Daryl, actually, I'd be happy to talk with you if you want to follow up with me after this. I'll put my email in here and anyone can feel free to follow up with me. But we certainly work at SSGI with a lot of regions and organizations that are trying to launch new innovation activities. So we'd be happy to learn more about your specific situation.

And I believe that nbia, who was part of, like, an opening session, they're the International Business Incubator. Yeah, Incubator association, something they help set up where they, you know, have a lot around just building an ecosystem and what you want to think about for, you know, systems thinking. Not necessarily the specific, you know, substantive technology, technology answers, but, you know, it's a level of systems of systems, and it needs to kind of function. So thinking about how you organize a hierarchy and communication systems and other structures that go into ecosystem building.

Absolutely. A great group, and we work with them a lot.

Yeah, so many great groups. So exciting to be part of this. Okay, we have two minutes left. The session ends at three. So last parting words of wisdom, Jason and John.

Well, what I would say is, is and Jason did not pay me to say this is that SSTI has a lot of good resources on its website and they also have an annual conference. They also have a weekly digest email that they send out. And, and it's free and it's very useful. And a lot of the questions that came up here have been addressed in some form or fashion through those resources. SSTI doesn't have all the answers, but they, they are a thought leader on a lot of these issues.

Well, certainly appreciate that unpaid endorsement there. So thank you very much and for I guess not sure my words of wisdom are but just also and certainly feel free check out our website. It's ssti.org you know, you saw the email extension there. Also be very curious and open to following up with anyone. We're trying to put out new resources all the time. We've been helping SBA and established with the America's Seed Fund monthly newsletter that you guys are seeing. So understanding if or how that is or is not useful. We don't have a particular dog in that fight. Want it to be helpful for the companies. So, so very open to seeing that. Yeah, John's giving us the hook here, so I'll stop there.

Perfect. Well, I want to thank you both for answering so many questions and offering so much great advice and support to all of our small businesses and ecosystem support people. So thank you very much, John and Jason, everybody back on the main stage.