Panel: Matching Your R&D Project to a Federal Agency

Hello everyone. Thank you for being here. I'm Nancy Kamay from the Small Business Administration and we're fortunate to have four amazing panelists with us today to share their wisdom on one of the first steps of an SBIR STTR journey that is finding a match between your research and development project and a federal agency that is interested in funding in that space. We're going to start by asking each of the panelists to please introduce yourself and your program, including your program's focus, whether there are deadlines, and highlighting something unique about your agency's program that would help those that are new to the SBIR STTR program start to differentiate your agency's program from the other agencies. So let's start with Stephanie Fertig.

Thank you, Nancy. And hello everyone. Great to have everyone here virtually. My name is Stephanie Fertig. I'm the NIH Director of the Small Business Program and I can represent not just nih, but the broader Health and Human Services as well as our program is really about health, really taking those great innovations and getting them into the hands of the patients, clinicians, caregivers and researchers that need them. We have a very broad mission focus on health and really helping either with reduced disease burden or working really in the healthcare space. We have three main deadlines per year. We predominantly do grants, but we do have a couple of contracts that we do as well. We have three main deadlines a year. Those three main receipt dates in September, January and April really provide us the ability to get applications in throughout the year. But we also have special programs and specific funding opportunities that may have their own receipt dates. So we do have a wide variety of different funding opportunities. So notices of funding opportunities that we have something unique that differentiates our programs really. We tend not to be the final purchasers of our products. So in general, when you're coming to NIH and the broader hhs, you're not going to be developing a product that we're going to purchase. But again, it's going to be a product for those clinicians, caregivers, researchers, patients that are out there in the broader United States. We are really focused on investigator initiated applications. Those great applications, those great ideas where you come to us, you're trying to talk to us about a problem and you're giving us that solution to that problem that's out there in that broader community. So that's one of the big differentiators between us and some of the other programs you'll hear about today.

Great. And on to Ben Schrag.

Hi everybody. Thanks for having me. My name is Ben Schrag. I'm a program director in SBIR and STTR at the National Science Foundation. I'm also the policy liaison for the agency. So a quick thumbnail about the NSF's approach to this program. I'll highlight a couple things that are unusual or maybe unique. Number one is that NSF is very focused on funding startup companies. So really our sweet spot is really both early in the de risking of a technology, we tend to, I think, take as much risk as anybody in terms of like company, in terms of companies really just getting started trying to make their product work. We also take risk in terms of companies and them being very early stage. So in most cases our award is almost always the first federal award to a given phase one company. About 90% of the companies we fund, this is their first government money. So we're very open and interested to new folks who are starting this process for the first time. Another thing I'll say, just to answer Nancy's question about deadlines, we do try to make things relatively flexible in terms of timing. So we do have submission windows at the nsf. They tend to be open as basically as much as possible, more or less all the way all around the year. They typically close and reopen immediately about every four months. We also have a project pitch which is a step before that, a little bit easier, faster step that you can use to gauge your appropriateness of your project. And I would encourage the new folks, the project pitch is really the only thing you'd need to worry about as a first time applicant to our program. If you're interested in learning more about the project pitch, tomorrow afternoon I will be talking in more depth about it. The last thing I'll say about the NSF that I think is a little bit unusual is that myself and my 13 other program director colleagues who make the funding recommendations, we all have been startup founders or investors or otherwise had experience bringing new technology out of the lab into the market and so have lived, has taken some of the roads that many of you are beginning to take as well. And I think we're the only agency where the program is really steered and all the decisions are made by folks who have that, who all have that experience. We're also scientists and engineers, but more recently, typically we have also been entrepreneurs.

And on to Dusty Lang.

I am so glad again to go after Ben who's so thorough about answering all parts of the question. So I've had to write mine down. So, you know, just to make sure I Remember all. But anyway, so we are one of the smaller SBIR agencies. I think we are the smallest one on here today, but we're mighty. Just so folks know, of course, the DHS is the protection of the homeland. It includes fema, tsa, Coast Guard, Secret Service, icbp, cwmd. We also support first responder technologies to be developed for your local communities. We are not part of DoD, something that is less and less of a misconception but sometimes pops up. So we are the internal to the US Protection. We do contracts at dhs. Some of our topics will be for end users within DHS and some of them will be for the benefit, like I said, could be for first responders where we're not the end customer. It could be for the protection of financial institutions and that ecosystem. So you'll want to make sure if you're looking at a topic you know whether that's intended to be trans transitioned internally or customer external to dhs. We do have deadlines so our solicitation just recently closed last week. Sorry if you missed it, but we will occasionally go out with oats rfi. OATS stands for other Agency Technology Solutions where we try to leverage the technology and the funding and the resources put forth already by our colleagues or more wealthy colleagues in the federal government. And I think I should highlight the thing that kind of is most unique to dhs. SBIR program is worth the best. So that's the easy one. Terrific.

And on to Bob Smith.

Well, how can I do anything when Dusty's already made sure people understand who's the best in the business. So hi, I'm Bob Smith. I run the Department of Navy's SBIR and STTR program. Department of Navy includes the Navy in the United States Marine Corps. I would do those. We use internal reviewers for every one of our topic in the applications. In phase three you're going to find the customer is going to be that naval war fighter, that Marine, that sailor that needs that technology, or part of the enterprise that supports our war fighters, say a shipyard or our maintenance depot or a business system that makes life of that sailor and that Marine, that quality of life that much better. A nominal phase one to phase three funding you'd see would be 240k in the phase one initial phase two at $2 million, that second phase two at $2 million. Anywhere along the way there could be cost matching. Anywhere along the way you can get your phase three. And recently in FY23 we had one company come in with a $100 million phase three so not a bad approach. Unique to the Navy is we have a phenomenal phase three record, the best in the Department of Defense. So it's sometimes difficult to get selected for our topics which are very specific to our technology needs. But once you're in the door, you're part of the family, and it's our job to help you succeed. Because if you succeed, our warfighters get solutions. I think I answered most of the questions or I've forgotten them at this point.

Okay, that's great.

And next we're going to move on to the lightning round. We usually do this with red and green cards when we're in person, but we have to change the procedure here a little. So can everyone just practice giving a thumbs up when it's a yes? Okay. Ben's high tech. Okay, let's start the lightning round. My agency has an SBIR program. SBIR program.

Okay.

My agency has an STTR program. Okay. My agency mostly uses external reviewers for the applications and proposals. Mostly uses external reviewers. Okay. And then my agency uses mostly internal reviewers. Mostly internal reviewers. That's a thumbs up for Bob. Okay. For applications and proposals in phase three, my agency can become the customer for your company's product or service. Okay. So I think you can start to see the differences between the agencies, even though these are all SBIR programs. And now we'll try the bonus question. So for one single project or innovation that starts as a phase one and then goes to phase two and 2B. If your agency has that. So just phase one to phase two and just one time through, what is the maximum amount of funding that could be awarded by your agency, Ben?

About $2 million. And one time through is most of the most companies is one time through for nsf.

Dusty.

So it varies because we are trying to push up our limits and we're trying to tailor it to the topics or tailor to the topics and tailor to which ones have the best ability to be transitioned. But I work approaching 2 million.

Okay.

And Bob, ours would be 2.2.

And Stephanie, you're muted.

Going to happen eventually. If you're just talking about phase one, phase two and phase two B, then that really puts us somewhere between four and five million.

Okay, terrific.

So you can see that there are.

Many differences between the agencies, and there are even differences between parts within a single federal agency. Yet all these funding mechanisms are called SBIR or sttr. So coming to the SBIR STTR program is different than approaching investors. You might approach an investor and say, we'd like to raise $5 million or something like that. But for the SBIR STTR programs, you need to define a research and development project and then find a match with a federal agency. So panelists, there are many people with us today who are new to the SBIR STTR program, about 60% of the registrants. So this process of finding a match is really important and can be confusing. So to begin the process, one could narrow the list of federal agencies to a few. That could be a good first step. What's your advice to new applicants about finding out whether your agency is interested in their technology area? Is there something they can read or can they find someone to talk to? Let's start with Dusty.

So I would recommend as a first step, the OSDBU at DHS Office of Small Disadvantage Business Utilization has what they call vendor outreach sessions and they have approximately one per month. And it's when small business specialists within DHS and or component representatives so somebody from FEMA or Coast Guard is available to talk to folks about what they do. So that's one way to find out kind of what the scope of what's happening within DHS is. We have somebody on our team that participates as well. So you can find out more about the SBIR program. But understanding kind of what the agency does. We again, we have a somewhat smaller budget so we won't be able to guarantee we'll have a topic for all of these spaces for every solicitation. But you'll at least know if what you're trying to do can have a potential fit within dhs.

Great, Bob.

So two resources. I'll send it to you. The first is go to SBA and go to their SBIR search engine where you can put in your technology area and it will, it'll get back to any agency that has awarded a topic within that area. Let's say your electrical transformers or your quantum computing. The list is forever. But that'll give you an idea where to start to see if you're most most fitted say to NSF or to DHA or to Navy or to the Air Force, the Army. That's a great place to start if you kind of like what they say about Navy. I'd also send you to navysbirsearch.com where our website has every topic we've ever had related since the dawn of the program. So you can see is there alignment to my research passion with that agency's needs and then we're off to the races. Remember, I really like it when you come to me with I've looked at your problems and here's your solution versus here's my technology. Where should I go with it?

Great, Stephanie.

And like I was saying, the interesting thing about NIH and actually most of HHS is that you're going to come to us not just with the solution, but you're going to be telling us what that problem is. So because we're investigator initiated, you're coming to us with this problem that's out there in the community and you're telling us how you're going to solve that problem. We have 24 different institutes and centers within NIH as well as CDC, FDA, ACL and ARPA H. So I encourage you to go to our website seed.nih.gov, seed like America seed fund.nih.gov and you can look on the homepage there. You can see not only are open funding opportunities, but if you scroll down a little bit, look for the great picture of the NIH main building. You can see a listing of all the different institutes and centers that participate in the program. I can also point you to Our current General Omnibus solicitation has a program descriptions document that talks about the mission space of each of those different institutes and centers that participate. And so you can get an idea of whom to speak with. But if you're not sure who to talk to, that's okay. You can always email us@seedinfoih.gov and we can connect you.

Great.

And Ben, yeah, just two points here. One is tactical and one is philosophical. So philosophically, when it comes to nsf, I would encourage folks to think to first of all not worry about topics. We don't have any real topical. We're not really interested in topics until we think you're a good fit. And then we use topics as a way to put you in somebody's hands who can get you the best review of your proposal. We really are more of a focus on a thesis. Our thesis again is to help brand new early stage companies, the average is about two employees get off the ground when the technical risk is gigantically high and no other funding source will take take that on. That's, that's the niche we play in. So in terms of thinking about whether you're a fit, you should think about whether you fit the type of company we're looking for this technically driven, high risk, high impact, commercially focused company. Tactically, the way to figure out this question is the project pitch. I mentioned it before and I'll talk about it tomorrow. It is something where you submit a little bit of Information through our website. Seed fund Seed like a plant, just like Stephanie. Seedfunds.nsf.gov you can submit that anytime. They don't open, they don't close. We're like, you know, one of those places that doesn't open or close. And we typically respond within two or three weeks, either giving you an invitation to take the next step into a full proposal or some information about why we don't think you may be a good fit and feedback either way. And so the full proposal is as complicated and lengthy as you probably have gotten an intuition about. But I would encourage you to cross that bridge later. The project pitch is really the thing to focus on in terms of this fit question.

Great.

And so once an innovator has narrowed the field to one agency or a few agencies, they then have to work on a full application or proposal. What's your advice for having a successful application or proposal? Should a company make the application broad, like moving a whole platform forward or specific focused on a use case or something else? Bob.

First off, and I think the rest will vouch for this. Read the instructions, please follow the instructions. And your proposal is going to be evaluated on technical approach. The innovation to that, your technical team and your commercialization plan. But the biggie is to answer the question the Navy will have said in that topic, I've got a problem here. I need you to work on size, weight and, and power. I need it to go faster, I need it to be lighter, I need it. So I've looked at your problem. My technical approach will solve that problem and this is how it will solve that problem. And then you're off to the races. But that's it. Answer the question given to you in the topic.

Stephanie.

So I think the answer, Ben's going to agree with me here is that NSF and NIH really don't use topics like the DoD or some of those other agencies. And so for us it's really you're going to be meeting our mission. Now NSF and NIH have different missions, but it's really about the project meeting our general mission. And again, since we're investigator initiated, we have a very broad mission. Chances are you probably, if you're in the health space, probably fit within our mission. So the question of whether or not you want to do something that's very specific and has a specific use case versus having a platform, it really depends on the problem that you're trying to solve. And I've seen individual companies really developing platform technologies and be successful. I've seen many of them have a specific use case case and be successful. I think the real key here is can you articulate these specific needs, the significance and in our agency we have, we do review on five different review criteria. Significance and innovation are two of those review criteria. The others are approach investigators and environment. But that significance in innovation, that's part of it. So can you really talk about here's the problem and here's my solution. And that solution may be a platform technology, that solution may be a very, very specific use case, or it could be somewhere on that sliding scale. And so the good news is there's room for both of those within nih. That said, and I think we all agree on this, reading the instructions is extremely important. And if there is one, you know, tip, I'd say there's, there's two main tips I would provide. Read the instructions and reach out and talk with, talk with program staff, talk with government staff. While I do know that with regards to contracts, there are some limitations about that during some specific blackout periods, again, do reach out and talk to program staff. We can at least make sure that you're looking in the right place and we can guide you to the, to the right location. And the fun facts about grants is that you can reach out to Ben and I anytime. We don't have any of those blackouts. So feel free to reach out to us at any point.

Ben?

Yeah, I would mirror echo a lot of what Stephanie said. I think, you know, to the question Nancy posed, I think you have to mix the kind of broad and the specific. For nsf, typically agencies do want a broad, ambitious vision. We want to see big impact down the road for your company. We want to see that you're going to make a big difference, generate a lot of jobs, a lot of money, whatever your impact is. Typically though, as I mentioned, we fund companies when they're quite small. And for a two person company, the best thing you can do to convince an investor or the NSF that you should be funded is to show that the what's in front of your feet is something that you're taking on in a thoughtful and determined way. And so typically you're going to focus a lot of the time in your phase one application on a beachhead use case, on the beachhead customer market, very small but maybe very important pain point for a very small group of customers that you can get to more quickly than the broad vision that your company has. And so making sure that you do talk about the details of how you're going to execute in the short term, both technically and commercially is one of the best ways we can judge whether we trust you to take the federal funding and make something make happen from it.

And Dusty.

More similar probably to what Bob described, that DHS we have mission that we're trying to execute and as I mentioned, we're a smaller SBIR program amongst the federal agencies. So we go out to our community internally and say what do you need? What is priority for you? And then based on that, we're putting out the funding and we're trying to solve those problems to be able to provide that, that solution. I absolutely agree that you must read the instructions and this goes back to either the flexibility or the directness of it. So we'll have in our topic, we'll tell you, this is, this is what we're trying to solve. This is what we're doing right now. Here's the end user, here's what we've already tried, why it failed so that you know, okay, well you tried this, it already did not work for you. So we try to put all that in there. And that's really important for you to formulate a decision as a business as to whether it's worthy of a response in your time. And you know, while, you know, as Stephanie mentioned, there's blackouts in terms of when you can reach out directly to the technical folks. But you can always ask questions about the process. Well, you know, the closer you get to the when it's due, the less effective that may be. But, so you can always reach out but recommend early. If there's any confusion whatsoever, you should reach out and the solicitation will tell you when you can talk to the technical folks or not. So read that and that'll clear it up for each one of the agencies.

We know that not every proposal or application is successful on the first try. So how important is it to try again or again and again? And can you share any statistics about the number of first time applications or proposals versus RE applications that get funded? Let's see. Stephanie.

Yeah, resubmission is really important and I would really encourage potential applicants be aware that in the NIH as part of the NIH process, resubmission is literally part of our process. We really do expect and anticipate a number of our small businesses will need to reapply take the feedback that they get from the review panels. And the good news about NIH is everybody gets feedback from those review panels. You'll get written feedback from the review. You can take that written feedback, incorporate that into your Application and reapply. And so we don't be afraid to reapply. It's very common for individuals to reapply. It is very common for our potential applicants to get maybe a not a great score or maybe not get discussed but then come back, take that feedback re, you know, change the application in response to that feedback and then successfully get a grant. So it is really part of the process. I don't have any statistics on hand for right at this moment, but I can tell you there's a big myth out there that if you're new you aren't going to be successful. That is definitely a myth. About 25% or so or more of our applicants are first time applicant, first time recipients. They've not gotten any SBIR or STTR awards from any agency, not just ours. And so in that number is pretty stable. So we've really seen that we do fund brand new companies to the process. But again, don't be afraid of resubmission. Don't you know, if you get that, if you don't get it the first time, that's okay. Try, try again.

Ben.

Yeah, so I mean I would agree with that. I think, I think you're always welcome to come back and try to improve your proposal with nsf. That said, the by far the most common number of proposals submitted by a company that's getting their Phase one award is one proposal that's a little more than a half of the aggregate number of Phase one awards we make. That's the first time they've written a proposal to us and as far as we can tell in most cases to anybody. So that's by far the most common. But certainly you could have a number. We have a big chunk of proposals that have applied twice, three times and then get funded. You know the other thing I would say is that the, I don't remember the exact numbers but the success rate for phase one is slightly higher for brand new applicants than for repeat applicants. There's various dynamics that influence that but of course we are an agency as looking for early stage startup companies and we realize if we make you do this too often and it takes us a while to decide so it's not short. If we make you reapply a few times, you're no longer a startup company. You're either a larger company or your failure or a five year startup. And nobody likes a five year startup. So we really do try to give the benefit of the doubt to folks. If you don't get everything perfect, we'd rather try to maybe fund a company with some rough edges because we want to fund them at that early stage than make them kind of go back and make a perfect proposal later in the second or third or fourth time.

Thanks, Dusty.

So my answer is going to be a little bit different, but not, not dissuading folks from, from reapplying. But so like I said earlier, we do specific topics. We go out and we ask folks, what do you need right now to be able to execute your mission better? So once we do around, you know, we put a topic out and we make our selections and we usually do on average, three per topic for phase one. Then next time we're going to the next problems and we're letting those solutions develop. We don't, we don't keep going, okay, well, is there, is there a better one for this or whatever? We're confident in making good selections this first time and being able to move on and we have to deliver those, those technologies needed. I would say, though, don't be dissuaded if you are not selected the first time. 1. As Stephanie mentioned, we're going to have feedback available as well. Please receive that feedback with the understanding that this is a serious task undertaken by the federal evaluation team. They're looking at this and they're looking for the potential best solutions for this particular issue. So you may, and often we will get. We had a high response to our last solicitation. I'm very, very happy about that. At the same time, that does inherently mean we're going to get some great ideas that just didn't bubble to the top for which ones are the best fit. So don't take that as we're saying this is a crap idea or a failure, as Ben implied it. We're not saying you're a failure, that's nsf. But we are saying, you know, this isn't necessarily the best fit. And sometimes, and I've had this before, where you have something in your head and it doesn't get out on paper the right way. So look at that feedback as the. Exactly that feedback and use it as a way to improve the potential for being selected for the next, for the next round for another great solution to a topic that we have an issue to be able to solve.

Great. And Bob.

I don't want to be Debbie Downer here, but the Navy doesn't do resubmissions. So it's applying to that topic, getting selected for that topic. Historically, the Navy will get about 17 proposals per topic and we'll select two to three of those proposals for funding. Anecdotally, I've heard from companies that it's taken them four, five, maybe the sixth try on a submission for a topic before they've been selected. Okay, we have three solicitations a year. So, okay, maybe it took you a year and a half, two years to finally how to do that, to be part of the Navy team. I'd also highly encourage you foot stomp it. Use your local resources, use your APEX accelerator to look over your proposal to help you tighten it up, to make you understand that's you know how, how to make your proposal better. I in the Navy can't look at your proposal. We can have a discussion about technology and technology progression and where it's going to go, but you, we can't help you with a proposal. That's where we're going to draw the line on it. But obviously avail yourself of local resources. Obviously avail yourself of when the topic is in pre release because you get to talk to that topic author, you get to talk to that customer who shouldn't talk to their customer.

Great. Okay, my next question is about time. Specifically, how long does it take to actually get the funding? So from the time of application of proposal to the time the money is actually available to be deposited into a company's accounts, how long does that take your agency? Is the government funding fast or slow or somewhere in between? And will I hear anything from the agency along the way? So, Ben?

Yeah, so this is one of the downsides of nsf. We are pretty slow, typically five to six months from application to money in hand. And honestly, that'll be about the timing for even the decision and the feedback. We base our review process on a deep technical review, which means we have to ask scientists and engineers and other technical folks to do a deep dive into your technology and your company. Those folks take their time and they select them basically based on your application. We then go out and find them. So we have to actually take the time to identify them and we have to wait for your proposal to come in to figure out the right experts. So that all takes time. It does add up to a slow process. You may hear something along the way. It probably won't be in that first three months, but potentially in the month four or five. You may hear if things are looking potentially good, you may hear requests for feedback or more information or questions. And at the end of the process, you will get detailed feedback from our external reviewers, our written reviewers, and also if you're interested, and I recommend you do pursue this you should ask the program director for their and their thoughts about the proposal, especially if you're declined in what we call debrief because they have, they do engage deeply with these proposals and we do have thoughts and opinions that may not come across perfectly through their bit of feedback.

Okay, Dusty, how long?

So we will. Our solicitation just ended last Thursday as I mentioned earlier and our timeframe for the phase one awards to be finalized is the beginning of May. So that we can start those phase ones, we will be notifying you in between there usually around 75 days from the end of the solicitation as to whether you've been selected to pursue an award. This is not a guarantee of an award. There's still you stop to make sure that we're meeting all of the requirements and that we're going through all the diligence processes for the award. But we will try to give you that notification no later than 75 days from the time the solicitation closes. And then our phase ones are firm fixed price five month contracts and it's set up to be the deliverables are the monthly reports. So there'll be five monthly reports, one one of which is technically the final report, but so you'll be getting that funding throughout the life of the five month contract and then from the end of the, at the end of the phase one, toward the end you'll be getting information about how to submit to a phase ii. And we try to get those phase twos awarded around the March timeframe. So that can take a little bit longer. For the phase two, we're looking to do a cost plus contract because it's, it's tricky to try to cost out something that's never been done before. So for the, and we have a whole, you know, thing that we, that we go through with our companies to explain to them why it's to their benefit to do a cost plus contract and not a firm fixed price for phase two. And so that funding is then provided as you incur those costs under a cost plus contract.

Bob.

Dusty brought up a good point. It's worth bringing it up to you. At phase two we look for a cost plus contract, which means you have to have an approved accounting system. Good news is you've got time from phase one to the phase two to get that done, but work on your cost accounting system being verified. So for us we work really, really hard to meet the SBA time guidelines, which is from when that solicitation closes, we start the evaluations that we will have selections made within 90 days, you'll be notified, congratulations or so sorry. From that, another 90 days to get you under contract. Once under contract, we've worked it to where we want to do that entrance meeting where you have some deliverables and that initiates that first check within two weeks. So 180 days before. 180 days plus two weeks to where you're going to see that first check.

Great. And Stephanie, I think Ben and I.

Are really bookending this conversation here. As the two grant granting agencies, we have a required two levels of peer review process. So it takes about six to nine months from time of application to time of award. And it does go through that two levels of review. The good news is you're going to hear from that first level of review, the peer review group, and what their specific comments are in that summary statement around the three month time period. So those summary statements are released on average about three months after the application was received. And so you'll have a good idea of how your application did in peer review. Now, the peer review doesn't make funding decisions. We always say the peer review is stopped from saying the F word, which is funding. They provide advice, they provide their review, the technical review. But there is that second level of review that happens within the Advisory Council and there's due diligence that happens within the Institute and Center. But the good news is you will hear, you'll have an idea of how you did in that first level peer review, that technical review by three months and that'll be a good gauge. And much like Ben noted, you can reach out and talk to your program officer if you have any questions or you'd like to discuss that summary statement so you can determine what your next best steps are.

Great. There are a number of questions in the chat about multiple proposals. And so, for example, if your proposal gets rejected at one agency, but there's a call for something similar at another agency, can you resubmit the same proposal? Could you apply to more than one agency with the same technology at the same time or at different times? And that kind of topic. So does somebody want to comment about that?

Yes, you can submit to multiple agencies. It can be at the same time. You must check the box on the application saying that you are doing so. And you cannot get funded for the same work, either largely the same or all the same. If you're doing something and getting paid by a federal agency, you cannot get paid by another federal agency for that same work. So if that is overlapping to the degree that it Inhibits the ability to be awarded for both. You have to choose. And then if there's overlap, then you'd have to figure out how to smaller overlap. You'd have to figure out how to mitigate that. And Bob can.

Sure, Bob.

Absolutely right. You can apply to multiple agencies multiple times and you can't do the same work and get paid for it. So do that. I would also caution that it's not a cut and paste from one proposal to the next because that means when I'm reading through it and we've got some fairly intelligent people going, oh, this is an Air Force topic that he put on the Navy topic. And I know it was cut and pasted because he didn't remove Air Force in his proposal. That tends to not endure you with the technical evaluators. So make sure your base technology is going to be used to address my problem and write it up that way. But you can apply to multiple. The worst thing that can happen is more than one of us wants you to work for us.

Well, and I would add, though I do see this, and we see this often, I'm sure within nih, and I'm sure you all see it as well, don't do quantity. You know, it's quality, not quantity. We have a number of applicants who start just bombarding us with applications. And, you know, it's really important to make sure that you write and submit the best possible application. And that might mean only submitting one application this round as opposed to trying to do seven or five. Make sure that you're submitting the best application possible that really responds to what that specific agency is looking for. And it may be different and even. And we certainly see sometimes where there are companies that are specifically submitting to both NIH and nsf. We're very different agencies. And so you're going to have to think about how am I meeting what the NSF is interested in versus how am I meeting what the NIH is interested in.

Anyone else want to add?

Yes, please. So part of what Bob and Stephanie have both touched on is in addition to not copy and paste because we've gotten them before which says air Force or DoD or whatever on there. We have different requirements in the submission process. So make sure you again, read and are not copying and pasting. I know often companies are frustrated that they are different across the different agencies, but we execute differently and the requirements are different. If we tried to make them all the same, it would actually be worse because you'd have to meet every agency's requirements. For every submission. But so just make sure you understand the differences, make sure you understand the period of performance, the dollar thresholds, all those because you can actually be non responsive. Meaning for dhs, you don't even get evaluated if you don't meet the requirements.

Okay, so we had a couple questions about customer discovery and I Corps. How important is customer discovery and is I Corps a prerequisite for an SBIR award? So let's start with Ben.

Yeah, so I mean, probably not a huge surprise to folks, but we created I Core to make sure SBIR companies at NSF can do customer discovery. So it's important for us. It represents the biggest single failure mode for the companies that we fund, not the expensive R and D we pay for. And so if that's the biggest failure mode and we can help you avoid it by giving you a relatively small amount of money to do customer discovery, that's obviously a huge win for us. It's one of the most cost effective ways that we make our companies more successful. I would encourage every company to do it. Unless you've got some kind of crazy thing where the customer is so locked in and so there's so little uncertainty around what they're going to use it for and who they are. I mean, I think this is something where our companies continue to do customer discovery across multiple years, whether through I Core, whether through their own methods. It is an established practice for everybody in the startup community broadly. And there's a reason for that. It's a gigantic technical innovation, I think, for not screwing up your company or at the very least if you're going to screw it up, screwing it up early with a minimum of funding spent. So thumbs up. And if you want to learn more about I Corps or have any questions, feel free to reach out to me directly.

Anyone want to add anything about customer discovery in I Corps?

I would just add customer discovery is really important again, because we do. NIH is very investigator initiated. You really do need to understand what the problem is and be able to talk about what that issue is and then how you're solving it. We don't have a requirement for I Corps, Pre SBIR or STTR Phase 1. You don't have to do I cor before you come to us, but we do have an I Corps program for our phase one recipients. So once you've received a phase one from nih, there is an I Corps program to help you with that customer discovery. Again, because much like Ben stated, we really do see that as a potential failure point for many of Our companies and we want to make sure if you're going to fail, fail fast.

Anyone else?

Dhs?

Yeah, DHS offers. We have limited number of companies we can give a portion of funding to to participate. We partner with NSF on this. So they actually are going through the SBIR specific I Corps process. So we are able to fund a limited number of our phase one awardees to participate in the program. And they all, all the ones that it's resource heavy but valuable because they all come back and that are able to dedicate to it that they have found a tremendous amount of value to it. So we're the best sbir, but they do have this whole bicore thing going on, I guess.

Okay, Bob, you want to say something?

The strength of the Navy's program is it's the line to acquisition. So what you don't see behind that topic is the question we've asked ourselves in the Navy. What happens if it works? So we already know who your customer is and once selected, we're going to help get you to solve that customer's problem and do that. So that part's covered. We offer quite a few programs at phase two for our companies to help them understand the business of innovation, help them understand what it means to be a company that we expect them to deliver at scale when they complete that phase two over.

This question was actually focused on nsf, but maybe Ben, you could answer it for everyone. Does the government or NSF take any ownership or first rights to the IP through this program?

Yeah, I can take a crack. I hope my colleagues will correct me, I'm not a lawyer. This is the Bayh Dole act which actually applies to all federal funding. So I think this answer should be the same for all the SBIR programs and any other federal grant you get to do R and D when there is IP that you bring into the project, that is your ip. We don't touch anything that existed before. If IP results from the government's money, from the funding we give you, then the government has limited rights, what are called marchant rights to that intellectual property. And it means that essentially in cases of extreme, I would say extreme government need, the government has the right of fully paid up worldwide irrevocable license to qualify practice the technology. They have to do what's called a march in petition and get that granted. And then they don't have the ability to transfer that technology, give that to somebody else is my sense. I believe the last time I checked, march in rights have never been exercised for any SBIR project. So I think we've made about 160,000 awards across the program. And that march and right has never come into play. So hopefully that's reassuring to all of you. But you are taking on that theoretical possibility if you take on government funding.

Anyone want to add to that?

Sure. By practice. Bim's right. But the Navy likes to think of this way. That's your ip. We don't have it. And your SBIR IP data rights are so strong. So we pay for it, you keep it.

Yeah.

I would say to Bob's point, the government has other ways to get you to use to share their technology with us. And I suspect that would be by in most cases, unless there's no other option. That would be probably our first, our first way to kind of get that done.

Okay. And just as a kind of final go around, any final words of advice or inspiration to potential applicants or proposers out there and anything new that's happening in your program in 2024 that you want to share. So can I start with Bob?

So first, I hope you got a sense that we're quite a cohesive family of federal folks that really do work together. The Navy loves to see companies that have started with NSF and come over, they've matured and they're ready to start tackling those Navy challenges. Same thing with nih. We'd love to see those technologies come into our medical community. We work together a lot, folks, a lot. And I, the Navy are continuously am adopting other agencies topics. So we work great together. So big thing is find that first customer, make sure that first customer is happy and, and we'll all work to help you find that next customer or that next business market for your technologies. So come on in, be part of the team new in 24. Not really. You know, we're, we got a good thing going. We keep looking for ways to improve things. We're doing a lot more outreach. We're going to see it south By Southwest and Navy SBIR.com has a lot of resources for you. So please come visit, please ask questions. We're actually here to help. Over.

Great. Stephanie.

I can second that. Please come talk to us, really reach out, ask us. We are here to help. Hopefully we've shown that we're approachable in this panel and we're going to continue to do that in the upcoming upcoming panels and the, the upcoming hop in events that we're going to be having throughout this virtual road tour offer to be a reviewer. So at the nih we utilize a peer review process. Many people that, that is a little bit different. That's a little bit more difficult for people because it's not something that every agency has offer to be a peer reviewer. We'd love to have you be part of peer review new this year. We've already released while the vast majority of our applications do come in through the omnibus solicitation, that's the general solicitation. We do have a number of notices of special interest that have been released already for this fiscal year as well as program announcements. I encourage you to take a look at those at our website so seed.nih.gov and we're more than happy to have you take a look at those. There's points of contact at the bottom of each of those. If you have any questions again, reach out and talk to us.

Ben, I was hoping you're going to let me go after Dusty at the end here.

Okay.

So I would second Stephanie.

Dusty.

No, no, no, it's okay. It's okay with second Stephanie's point. NSF also has peer reviewers. We have a gigantic appetite for people who know about technology and science and startups and entrepreneurship. And so if you're, if you're focused on any of those, we would love to have you help and get and be part of the process. We have thousands of those folks who give us great advice and give us feedback to our companies every year. As far as things at NSF that are new, it's not this year but we have created a brand new directorate NSF called the TIP Directorate. TIP is an acronym like everything else in the government, it stands for Technology Innovation and Partnerships. It is basically a shell of part of NSF that was created to basically house what we call translational activities. And translation, for those of you who are not well versed in the academic terminology, is when you take new science and new innovation, new intelligence and bring that into the form of a product or service that gets into the market. So taking things from the lab or from the publication literature into the market. So TIP basically was created to house a whole bunch of new programs were spinning up to do to help folks to do this translation. So if you're involved in bringing technology toward the market, please go to nsf.gov tip and there's a SBR and I Corps and a whole bunch of other programs that we're just getting started to help folks in various ways to do that. And the last thing I'll say to folks is that starting a. I learned the hard way starting a technology based business is one of the hardest things you can try to do. And so the good news is that I think that right now and right here in the United States is the best place and the best time ever to do it. There's a gigantic amount of resources, including outside the federal government in terms of accelerators and incubators and just knowledge about how to do this. And so if you're doing it, I would encourage you to just network and connect with people all inside and outside the government who are involved in it. Entrepreneurs tend to be incredibly willing to share their secrets with other entrepreneurs. And so I would encourage you all to do that and wish you all the most success. I think it's an incredible important thing that you're doing great.

And Dusty Nancy, I appreciate it. You know, obviously Ben, she, she believes in the save the best for last, so she's just reinforcing that. DHS is the best in my opinion. But anyway, so, yeah, the meanest. No, no. So the DHS. I'm really proud to announce that for FY24 we were able to launch our phase zero program which is to help do outreach and bring folks that have never participated in the program into the program and help them to be deemed responsive in their submission. So not to be caught up in all the things that can catch you and trying to be able to submit properly. Also in kind of touching on what Bob mentioned earlier, where we have a mentorship part of the process so we cannot review your topic submissions. But right now that mentorship includes making connections with APEX and other types of organizations that can help you to understand the submission process even from the how to do a good proposal. And on the other end of the process we have. I've worked with our contracting folks so to the end of we all work together. This is the best program in the federal government. There are contracting folks have a job aid that allows them to understand the authorities of the phase three, meaning that if you have a technology you have started at any one of the federal agencies sbir STTR programs, you can get a directed award, meaning without further competition provided extends, drivestram or concludes prior sbir work. So if you've done something at the Navy or NIH or NSF and there's a DHS or application and somebody at DHS that wants it, make sure to reach out to my office to get help so that we can make sure the contracting officer is aware of that authority and can streamline that procurement.

Okay, great. Well, we hope that you learned something today about the start of your sbir STTR journey. The country needs you innovators to continue creating the future for all of us. These wonderful panelists will be available at other sessions during the week. Dusty is available right after this panel and a session focused on cybersecurity. Stephanie will be available right after this panel in a Meet the Program Director session focused on health. And there are six other agencies that have sessions on health, including the newest SBIR program from ARPA H. And then on Thursday Stephanie will be available again at a session called Spotlight NIH along with four other institutes from the nih. Bob Smith will be available tomorrow in a session focused on artificial intelligence and machine learning. And there are six other agencies that also have sessions on aiml. And then right after that, Bob will be part of a session on Phase three with the dod. And Ben, as he mentioned, will be hosting a brand new session tomorrow called NSF the Project Pitch Process this afternoon. There are four areas for the Meet the Program Director session. Earth, Climate, Weather, Cybersecurity, Health and Energy with representatives from 10 of the 11 federal agencies here today to share their areas of interest and answer your questions. And if you're interested in the in person Road tours, the hosts from the south and Southeast Road tours will be available tomorrow at 12:00pm Eastern just before the next SBA panel starts at 1:00pm so we hope you have a great afternoon. Thank you so much to the panelists and we're looking forward to seeing you tomorrow. Thanks for coming.