Stories from Entrepreneur Support Organizations (ESOs) on Accessing Federal Funding

Good afternoon and welcome to today's breakout session, stories from entrepreneur support organizations, ESOs on accessing federal funding. My name is Eldon Hawks. I'm the Partnership Innovation Specialist in the Office of Investment and Innovation with the Small Business Innovation. In this session, we're going to learn what SBA programs are available to ESOs, including the Regional Innovation Clusters, the Federal State Technology Partnership Program, and the Growth Accelerator Fund Program. We have a great lineup today. And starting with Keshla, please introduce yourself, your organization and its mission.

Good afternoon. My name is Keishla Tirado. I am the director of the center for Innovation and Technology of the Puerto Rico sba. We are currently a FAST awardee. We have what we like to name the Puerto Rico IDEA Program, Puerto Rico Innovation Development Entrepreneurship Assistance Program.

Thank you. To Linda. You're on mute. To Linda.

My apologies.

No problem.

Dr. Jalinda Larson. I am president of the Utah Advanced Materials and Advanced Manufacturing Initiative, which was started because we were awarded in 2018 the SBA Regional Innovation Cluster program to create a cluster in Utah around our advanced materials, which are composites, carbon fiber and critical minerals. And that is what launched the whole organization. And it's been a fabulous five years. Our program ends in January and I look forward to sharing some of our Successes.

Thank you, Dr. Talinda. Jerry.

Hi. Jerry Hollister, BBC entrepreneurial training and Consulting. We are a recipient of both a Growth Accelerator Fund award and also a FAST awardee. So we are a SBIR STTR assistance program and we serve clients all across the country.

Thank you. Now, Jerry, I want to start with you because you guys have both the Growth Accelerator and the fast. How, as far as your implementation of helping entrepreneurs, how do they differ?

Sure. No, it's a great, it's, it's, it's, it's a great question. So for fast, we are specific to Michigan. We were the Michigan recipient and our program in Michigan serves women, innovators, minority owned companies and rural third and rural area of Michigan. Then we have a specific program where we're sending these applicants that are trying to apply to sbir. That's in one of those three underserved groups can apply to our program and then they get a variety of services through our SBDC in Michigan and then some other partners that we work with from the Detroit area that really helps them along the process of applying to SBIR sttr. As part of that, we have a pitch competition where there's cash awards for that. For those in Michigan, the Growth Accelerator Fund is actually a continuation from two years ago when BBC etc won one of the eight Catalyst Awards. And back in 2021, 2022, we stood up what we call the Catalyst Advantage Network for Women. And this serves women owned companies anywhere in the country that are, you know, are trying to go to apply to SBIR STTR and we provide additional training and our support services which we, what we do is we help anybody that's trying to apply to SBIR sttr. That's what our firm does. Then we've also partnered with a group out of Minneapolis that came out of the Mayo Clinic. It's a woman owned investment fund that because they work with women owned founders, they found they discovered that women entrepreneurs faced similar challenges. So they, they stood up a four week training course called Leader to launch. The group is called Capita 3, excuse me. And so we, we provide a scholarship to go to this really intensive, very effective training course for women entrepreneurs. And so those two there, there's some overlap because Michigan, if you're a woman in innovator from Michigan, you could apply to both. But anywhere in the country, women innovators could and including our friends down in Puerto Rico as well, any of the territories can apply to the program and get those services. Thanks, Eldon.

Thank you. Jerry Tillyna, I'm gonna jump to you. Could you tell us about the Regional Innovation Cluster or the richer, we call it SBA and exactly how it was implemented in Utah.

So the Regional Innovation Cluster program in Utah, as again as I started to say, was created to bring together the businesses that are in advanced materials. Utah has led the nation out in composites and carbon fiber. Having some of the foundational companies here, they are large companies, they're two major companies. But from those two companies there has been a spinoff of much smaller companies in this marketplace of using composites and carbon fiber, such as in aircraft and outdoor rec products such as bicycles and skis, and also in medical devices such as feet. Actually we're known in Utah for prosthetic feet. And so the first step we had, again I said we, we were awarded in 2018. And the first step was to create the cluster to go out and find the companies, which was what we did in 2019. And we created a software tool to have called Connects, which is a marketplace where vendors can find each other. So companies large and small put their profile into Connects and then it's very searchable. So from Utah at that time, now Connex is in 22 states and also used by the national association of Manufacturers. That's all thanks to the Regional Innovation Cluster program. So then once we had it built and we rolled it out in 2019, then we spent 2020 populating getting the companies to get into the interconnects. But of course everything changed in about.

March of 20, right?

Yeah, exactly. So then our focus turned. Fortunately we had our companies identified and located and we started to communicate with them. So we were able to really pivot and help these small businesses through the very difficult times of the COVID pandemic. So in addition to small business support through just technical advising, we go in and help the companies with technical advising, business advising. We also very closely work with the FAST in Utah called the Utah Governor's Office of Innovation on sttrs, helping them with sttrs sbirs. We also have a entrepreneur accelerator program called RAMP where we've brought businesses in and help these entrepreneurs to launch their product and get them into the market. So our successes again, as I said, it was a five year grant and it ends in January. The total commitment of the federal government was $2 million. And we have been able to realize 50 million in new capital flowing to 180. Not all 180, but we ended up having 180 small businesses in our cluster, which is phenomenal. That's an incredible ROI from to 50 million. We also have through this program supported these small businesses and just about 100 patents for new technologies and we created 700 jobs. So it's been an incredibly successful program and so successful that in 2021 the governor's office recognized the advanced manufacturing industry as one of the five targeted industries for the state of Utah.

Thank you. That's amazing. Now Keisley, I want to go to you. We had a little bit about FAST from Jerry. One of the unique positions that your organization is in is that you're also a small business development center. So talk about how that has been, I guess incorporated in order to really execute your FAST grant for the center.

For Innovation and Technology and for the sbdc. The FAST program leverages what we offer at the center. I do have to say that without the FAST program, we would not be able to serve as many entrepreneurs as we do with that funding now in Puerto Rico, we hadn't received this fund since 2015, so it had been about roughly eight years that it was not here. And once we received it, it leveraged the assistance that we were able to provide. Now our program works with three different phases. The first one is capacity building, the second one is technical assistance. And then the last one, we offer that one on one mentoring where you should be able to write the grant and we should be able to submit it. What's important and how it leverages our program is, is the fact that we are able to have those resources that help the entrepreneurs that we would not be able to get otherwise without this program. And we're able to, for example, we work with Jerry, also with BBC etc, they help our entrepreneurs and we were able to reach out more. Now we divide our program with different cohorts. So in Puerto Rico, honestly, we are not. Our SBIRS were bottom 10 at the moment. So this is the importance of the program for us and how it has helped us just to get better at these numbers. Because the first COHORT we received 191 applications. And that's why capacity building is so important. And the fact that we are educating our entrepreneurs about what is innovation. Our population is not very clear here in Puerto Rico. What is innovation according to the SBIR program. Now they can determine what is innovation according to other programs, not what is to the SBIR program. So that was our first mission when we noticed that we had received 191 applications and we could not accept anyone to the program. And we evolved to a point that this is our third and last year. We're very sad about that. But we are going to, hopefully we're going to renew the program. And we have right now, with the help of, like I said, different partners like BBC Tech and other mentors that we have been able to get through the program. And we have right now six entrepreneurs that we are ready to submit. Now. That is a big number for us in the past years and how the program has grown from the beginning, from we started with capacity building and after we educated our population about what is innovation according to these programs, people are now more aware of what are the requirements to be able to submit for these programs. So the FAST program and the SBDCs, I would say it just leverages everything that we do.

Right. Thank you, Kishla. Now, one of the things you really specified was that innovation and understanding of innovation, that really goes into a lot of things that entrepreneurs need to be made aware of when it comes to getting support from federal programs. I'm glad you really spoke on that to Linda. Could you talk about some of the things that entrepreneurs, innovators need to be aware of and need to be made aware of when they come to work with you?

When they come to work with us, we often reach out to them. We do on site visits and we sit down with the company and we go through tell us how we can help and then we help to identify resources that we can bring. The number one problem that I see for small businesses in this space of leading out with technology and innovation is knowing what is available to support. And I have to say I'm excited about this move that SBA has done to put the Regional Innovation Cluster program underneath the Office of Investment and Innovation because it really has been very helpful to have a focus on finance. So we sit down, we find out what their technical needs are, what their some of their operational needs. We are also part of the Utah mep, which is the Manufacturing Extension program. So we're able to point and bring in the assets of the other alliance partners, such as the training that can help them with the impact Utah with the health care and other benefits that can be offered through the association known as the Utah Manufacturers association, through helping them get their product to into an international market with our relationship with the World Trade Center. So we seek these companies, we've identified them and we are getting so our. As I said, the first thing was find them. The second thing was engage with them. And now we really are into a deep relationship with these 180 companies here in Utah in advanced materials and advanced manufacturing. One big benefit also of the SBA RIC program is having this deep contact and relationship with these small businesses. We've been able to leverage to other programs such as the FAST SBI STTR programs. We're also been able to create a program in the state called the Manufacturing Modernization Grant Program where the state has a $10 million program to help with automation of small businesses to better compete on a global market. So when I've been talked to Allison and others in oii, we call that the but for so but for the Regional Innovation Cluster Program, we would not have had a vehicle to be able to bring these small businesses into these really exciting programs like the Manufacturing Modernization Grant Program. And there's also another one called Return to Work where we're helping to bring new Americans. New Americans are immigrants and refugees that have engineering background into these small businesses, help them find workforce and other programs like that. While those programs are funded by other sources than the ric, but for the ric, these small businesses would not have had access to them.

Understood. Thank you, Taninda. Now, Jerry Talinda brought up some very good points. As far as some of the services they provide and the businesses that they assist. Could you talk about some of the entrepreneurs that you're seeing and maybe in your case particularly, is there an overlap between a growth accelerator and the fast? As far as the sort of entrepreneurs that you're seeing or are they in general totally different? Yeah.

So generally speaking, the groups that we find or that are applying to our Growth Accelerator Fund program, which we call Women Can Catalyst Advantage Network, so the Women can program, generally those companies are a bit further along in their journey, their SBIR journey. They've gotten a company form, they pretty much have an idea. They, they pretty much have had a, at least one agency that they've identified that they want to apply to and they're trying to figure out how to apply. And that's where we come in. We can support them. We send them to the Capita three leader launch to kind of supercharge them and then, you know, we work with them to really help, equip them to, you know, have a compelling proposal. The FAST applicants, again, generally speaking, tend to be a little bit earlier. Some of them don't have their company formed yet, some of them do, and some of them are kind of frustrating further along. But we found a number of the groups in Michigan that are a little bit earlier. And so like I mentioned, our FAST program does work collaboratively with the SBDC here in Michigan. And you know, the SBDC helps just like they do down in Puerto Rico, help those early stage companies just figure out how do you, you know, get formed and get registered and all those kinds of things that, that are so important from the SBDC services. So that's we're seeing, you know, again, generally speaking, the fast applicants are a little bit earlier stage and the growth accelerator companies are maybe a little bit further along. So. Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you. Keshe LA what sort of first time assistant or services or assistance are you seeing that more and more of your applicants need when it comes to SBIRSTTR grant writing?

Oh my God. Do they need help? I think everybody agrees they need help with grant writing. That's the first thing they ask me. How do I write a grant? What do I do? Which are the first steps to take? I always tell them, this is your baby. So you know your baby more than anybody out there. You have to write that grant first and then we will revise it for you. Okay? So to me, grant writing is the, the first step for them. That's the main assistance we get. Like I said, BBC Tech helps us out there with specialized grant writers. I'm a grant writer myself. Obviously we don't know everything. So when I need that assistance, I go to somebody who has a specialty either in the DO program or defense. So I go to somebody specific in that area.

Sometimes what we've done is again using the FAST program to get the SBIR STTR submitted and then they win it. And it's a lot like a dog catching the truck right now that they have it, what do they do? What are all these? And you know, it's when you read what you're signing to, to receive the grant, it's ip, it's reporting and it's pretty onerous. So we have also helped our companies on the backside of once they've won it, sometimes they retain us actually. But most of our services are free that we just help to review and help them and keep them in compliance.

Thank you. Now, I'm going to pose this one to Jerry before we head off to question and answer with the audience in a few minutes. But what do you see outside of grant writing? Because obviously that's, that's going to be the biggest thing. What do you see as the biggest obstacle a lot of organizations have when they come to you?

Yeah, and I want to just kind of add on to what Keishla and Talinda said about grant writing because I think there's a lot of times confusion about what grant writing in and what grant writing is versus kind of a support like what we provide. You know, we don't generate content and I don't think most people do. I agree with Keisha 100%. It's their baby, they need to know it. And I found that, you know, there's grant writers out there, but it really, it takes, it's. Their grant writers are great if you're doing a playground for your local school. But for technical writing, it takes so long for a quote unquote grant writer to get up to speed that the company could have written it by themselves. And I think there's this, there's this, you know, the latest trend is to try to use chat, GPT or one of these other large language models to generate content. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of danger in doing that. If nothing else, they could be releasing their intellectual property into the wild. But back to your question. You know, the biggest thing, I think that the challenge that I see for most innovators is they, they're so head down focused on their, their, their, you know, technical development that they don't, they don't think about the commercial applications because sbirsttr they are program, you know, they're product development programs. You have to have a product. This is a, this is a jobs program, this is economic development. And I think people, they wait too long to try to validate that there is really a market opportunity for their product. And they try to focus on the. Because they got this wonderful idea, they think it's going to solve this problem, but they don't actually ask anybody. And that's probably the biggest thing is that they don't start early enough to figure out what the product market fit is and whether there really is an opportunity to sell this widget or product or service or whatever it is that they're developing. It really could be a transformational product, but they need to figure that out by asking a lot of people. And I know that's where the I Corps program has come in and helps help train these innovators to do that. But that's probably the biggest thing that I see. And, and then because they're so focused, you know, they need to, they need to get some outside, you know, somebody to read their proposal as well.

I always also reach out to the project managers. We help them In Puerto Rico, SBDC, we connect them directly. I remember being at the TechConnect World and from the NSF bench rag, I remember saying, get that quick note. We will not make you go through this entire process, which is long and there it requires a lot of effort. Contact the project managers, go to like we do. We contact you with them. We will prepare those meetings for you. We will connect you with them. Get that quick note, get it out of the way, don't do all the work and then have it not work.

It's a great point.

Before you go to the questions and answers, I do want to add another real strong benefit from the Regional Innovation Cluster program is networking. We have many networking events where we bring these 180 companies together and with government, with academia, with the large OEMs, and there's that dynamic interaction between the companies that has resulted in, in so many instances when two of the companies end up working together for a new product or enhancing an existing product. So one of our biggest networking event, we did a barbecue, just an informal barbecue this summer and we had 5 or 6 of the companies, did some presentations. But we are still getting from that barbecue people saying, well, yeah, at the barbecue I met so and so and I was able to have them make my part or there were we joined together and there's my part is now on there, whatever. So getting the opportunity to work, to meet other entrepreneurs in your space is another big benefit of the Regional Innovation Cluster program.

Networking is always key. I say I want a couple questions, Tony. I'll stick with you are you only Utah based as far as the companies do you assist? Are you only in Utah? Okay, because that was one of the questions I know that Kesha spoke about, especially with fast. Same thing with Jerry and Growth Sellers. There was some outside of that territory component, but there were some questions about whether or not.

We only serve Utah companies, but we help Utah companies participate on the national and global stage. And by that I mean again. But for the sba, the RIC program, we were able to introduce the STEP grant program that's operated by the World Trade center here, another SBA program to our small businesses to help them go to global conferences and be able to sell on a national and a global stage.

Okay, now just to. Well, I'll read this question because I think I kind of know the answer based on the panel. But we have a. We have a participant who's basically she has. She's founding a response to urging how the needs of mentally ill individuals in Milwaukee dedicated to addressing homelessness by delivering permanent supportive housing and long lifelong solutions fostering self sufficiency while promoting independence. My question is what financial monetary resources are available for programs like mine and how do businesses like mine maximize the support? So go ahead, Jer.

Yeah, so I know that the center for Technology CTC in Wisconsin has a FAST award and they do support. If the technology they're developing in Milwaukee there is related to or could be eligible for SBIR sttr, then they should contact ctc. I don't have the website off the top of my head, but sbir.gov website would have a link to the FAST awardee there in Wisconsin. And that's. I would suggest that they. And they have micro grants there for companies. So there would be very little out of pocket for. For the company as long as they make an application.

So Utah, our governor's office also helps. If you go for a phase one, you can get $3,000 towards your proposal writing. If you go for a phase two, it's five or six thousand. Again, that's not run under the RIC program, but that's under the FAST program that's run by our governor's office. Yeah, thank you.

That helps. Let's see, Is there a listing of email contacts for accelerators and regional hubs? You can. Debbie, you can actually go to sbi.gov we have a local resources locator tool where you can find information on FAST organizations, accelerators, regional hubs, all. It'll be listed by state as a dropdown. You pick your state and everything is there. Okay. I have a comment From Kelly Windham, who is also a FAST awardee. Just a comment she had based on the discussion. Biggest problem I see is client's ability to read and follow instructions. Because they may be an expert in a specific sector, specific area, they tend to think they're the experts in everything.

So you're here second.

Right. That goes with Jerry said, get other people to read what you're writing. Okay. Do Jerry and Kessler help companies in other states? Keshler, you are focused just in Puerto Rico, correct?

Yes, I am just focused in Puerto Rico.

Yes. And Jerry, I know your. Your Women Focus program is in other states. Could you tell me what states it is nationwide?

Yeah. Any of the states and territories. We just, you know, obviously, if you're in Canada, you're not eligible for sbir. But. Or Mexico. But anywhere in the US we're taking. Two years ago, we had applicants from all 50 states and Puerto Rico. So. Yeah.

Again, we got one last question from Susan. What are metrics you use to determine risk or. Or de risking ventures, and how is capacity evaluated?

Well, that's a individual.

That's really agency question, I would say, because it varies according to the agency. You have 11 participating agencies, so they would have to determine. So it's according to the agency, to.

The participating agency and. Or technology. Right. You know, the capacity for somebody doing software development is very. The capacity needs and capital needs are very different from somebody that's building a widget for Department of Defense, for example. I mean, those are radically different. So it really is dependent on, as Keishla said, the. The agency that they're applying to the technology they're developing.

Yeah.

Yeah. I would say, in general, the ESO is not looking at risk because they're not the ones that are gonna be funding these organizations. That is definitely gonna come down from the agency, and the agency is going to look at that aspect of the organization. And usually that happens after, like if they've been recommended for an award, especially sbir. Sttr. So that's something that Downs is down the pipe from in that decision.

It's very important to read the solicitation.

Yes.

What do they want? A lot of people that want to apply, they have not read the solicitation. And I keep giving them this homework. I said, that's the first thing you're going to do, read the solicitation. What is it that they want specifically? And that's your guideline. People do not read those solicitations.

Thank you.

We have a great question from someone who we all know, Allison Evans Start with you, Jerry. What's next for your organization? For each of your organizations, are there any specific 20, 24 goals or initiatives? And I'll start with you, Jerry.

Yeah, well, you know, we've been operating nationwide for several years in all 11 agencies of SBIR, STTR. We've continued to expand our capabilities beyond SBIR, STTR to other federal funding sources, R and D sources like cdmrp, barda, arpa, the ARPA E, ARPA H. So that's really where we're continuing to expand. And we really are trying to not just be the application assistance program for the like, like what Talenda said, you know, they get their phase one and now they're the dog that caught the car. Now what? You know, so we try to we have services that will take these companies, companies all the way through their phase one award, post award into phase two. And then once they're into phase two, how do you, you know, how do you start introducing them to investors and really the MEPs or whatever, what other partners they need to really make it to commercialization, commercial success. So we're not just that early kind of phase zero application assistance program. We do do that, but we're trying to be a full service hub for entrepreneurs that will take them all the way along that whole process.

Thank you, Jerry. To Linda.

Well, unfortunately, our regional innovation cluster program ends on January 15. We are optimistic that the next request for proposals on RICOC will include nonprofits. What we were awarded as a nonprofit in 2018. Then it changed that since this is a small business, set aside that the RICs have been small businesses, not nonprofits. So hopefully that does change with this next request for proposals. If not, we are in a position now that the state legislature has provided an appropriation so we can continue our services. They've done it now as an interim because I said I'm hopeful that we can get the program back through SBA by the end of the year. But if not, we have the state appropriation so we can keep doing exactly what we've been doing because it's been so beneficial to our small businesses in advanced materials and advanced manufacturing in Utah.

Thank you, Kishla.

So what we're going to do for 2024 is the SBDC initially only served the SBIR program through their center of Innovation and Technology. And we decided that we're going to expand our services to other types of technologies also through the FAST program. Even though we finish in September, we're also hoping to renew. We are going to expand the services and have What I would like to call, call a one stop where you can get everything. And we're working with investors so we will take you from the beginning to the end. So if you don't know where to go, we will have those investors for you. We're working with different organizations that work with our Act 60 degree law here in Puerto Rico so they can help our entrepreneurs. We're working with other investors so we're taking them through those processes and hopefully that's something that we're looking at. And just so they know, you start with us, you can finish with us. It's not that we're going to send you off and you have to keep working by yourself. No, we will work with you.

Thank you. Now, Keesla, I want to stay with you with this next question is probably some closing comments. When is it best for an entrepreneur to come to seek out your services?

Well, they can come to us at whatever stage they are at of their project. Whatever stage even. I've had clients show up that are just students who are just starting with this little gadget and they ask me, do you serve young entrepreneurs? I'm like, of course I do. I will help you. So we start from that process just very early on. If you don't fit into our program, we will send you through an accelerator to a development program and, and then that program knows to send you back to us. So then you come back to us and we keep helping you develop that idea until you submit that sbi. So it doesn't matter if you are an early stage. If you're a student, if you just have an idea and you know nothing about entrepreneurship, we will help you.

Thank you. Talinda, when's a good time? Well, I know you said you seek out a lot of your companies a little bit further along, but if someone's coming, when's the right time to come to ask questions?

Anytime.

Okay.

Absolutely. Anytime. But I guess anytime is off is absolutely true. But the networking sessions also give an opportunity to ask questions. We had one networking session where we had our Utah system of higher education presented all the different workforce programs that are offered by the state for small businesses to participate in. So that was the subject of the, of the networking event, but it ended up that it broke down into companies talking to each other.

Thank you. Jerry, same question.

Yeah.

Anytime earlier is better. But anytime, wherever they're at in the process, we have partners that can help all the way along the journey.

Okay. Well, that's amazing. It's been a great panel. Jeremy, start with you and go back around. Could you just talk about what are the best next steps for organizations as they go through their entrepreneurial journey, especially when it comes to just seeking funding and advancing their technology even further, whether it's sbi, TTR, or any other program.

Yeah, no, I, you know, one thing that I really see entrepreneurs make a mistake on is when they're used to pitching to investors and then they want to go pitch to sbir. You have to know your audience, because pitching to investors is like 180 degrees out of phase, exactly opposite as pitching to SBIR. And what I mean by that is if you say to an investor, or what you're going to say to an investor is, this is easy stuff. This is not hard. You need to get on board now before, you know, everybody else gets on board. And this is a, yeah, it's technical, but there's no risk. If you say that to sbir, they're not going to be interested. You have to say to SBIR the exact opposite. This is super risky. Nobody wants to touch it. Investors won't invest until, you know, we de risk it. And that's why we need this federal funding. So I think understanding who you're pitching to is vitally, vitally important. And they have to target their, their pitch to the, to the right audience.

Thank you very much to Linda. Any parting words of advice to any budding entrepreneurs out there?

Just go and do it. Don't let anything hold you back. And there is a enormous support system on the state and national level.

Thank you. Kessler, same question.

Yeah, I definitely have to agree with Tilling that seek help. There are a lot of funds out there that you can request. I've had clients that have paid for grant writers five to $8,000. They don't get the SBIR. And they asked me, oh, I did not know that you were available. I'm like, well, now you do. So look, there are a lot of programs who are funding these. You are not alone. You're not by yourself. And what you need, that's what we're here for, to help you through this journey. It doesn't matter if you're starting. It doesn't matter how advanced or accelerated you are.

Thank you. Now, I want everybody to understand that there have been a host of links that have been put into the comments going to local assistance, more information on the ESOS, sbir.gov, sbir.gov are perfect places to start to find out more information. All of the LinkedIn contact for all our panelists are on the website itself for the conference. I want to thank everyone for being a part of this today. And just to let everyone know, there are many, many resources out there to assist you with your entrepreneurial journey. A lot of times, all you have to do is just reach out, get on your computer, send an email and ask questions. And everybody here and everybody we work with are 99.9% of the time very happy to assist you in any way that we can. So never be afraid. Exactly. Never be afraid to ask. Never be afraid to pick up that phone. No question is too out there, especially considering with the three individuals we have here with the sort of companies they've assisted over the years. There's a lot of technology that they've seen. So no idea is too big, no idea is too small when it comes to the world of innovation. It's all about making a difference, making a change, and commercializing your technology. And that's what we're all here to assist you with.

And there's no catch, because they asked me, is there a catch for your services? Why are there. There's no catch. The government just wants you to be rich, to make a lot of money. That's it. Develop a new technology.

No catch, right?

Exactly. Well, I thank you all for your time. And everyone feel free to reach out if you have any more questions to ask of myself or any of the panelists today.