KPI's for Law Firms (Best Of)

Welcome to Accountants LawPod, where accounting professionals and law firms converge. Hosted by Lynda Artesani, Sarah Prevost, and Stephen Libhart.

Hello everybody, and welcome back to the podcast. Sarah, how are you today?

I'm doing well. It's a really beautiful sunny day. Not as warm as I would hope, but it's beautiful and sunny and I'll take it. How about you?

Same here, we had snow this weekend and now it's sunny again. And I was telling Tiara, our amusement park was supposed to open up this weekend here in Denver and it didn't because of the snowstorm on Saturday. It was really dramatic.

That is a true point, you have dramatic weather. I always call it bipolar weather, but really it's dramatic weather. You just go from one to the next.

It can be 80 degrees and 40 in the same, or 30 in the same day, it's just weird. But, um, everybody, Lynda is on vacation today, so you have Sarah and I, and, uh, we're just so glad you guys are here. And we wanted to— today we're going to talk about, um, KPIs in growing your legal practice, so specifically kind of targeting on that. But before we do that, I wanted to remind everybody, please, please, please subscribe to our podcast if you're watching this. Um, we have a lot of people subscribed, and, and we get a lot of the likes, and we get a lot of downloads and, and things like that. But I just wanted to remind everybody, and Tiara will again at the end of the podcast, please subscribe. We need all those hits we can get. That just helps build our, our platform, and, and we're so grateful to all of you that have helped grow it this last year. What, almost 2 years, right?

Oh my God, I can't believe it.

All right, June will be 2 years, won't it?

Tiara, can you confirm that for us? Oh, that's a thumbs up, so yes.

Thumbs up. All right, yay. So today we're going to talk about KPIs for growing your legal practice, and, um, I think this is pretty exciting. I like KPIs, as you know. And I kind of did some research and thought processes on it this morning and kind of, I came up with, what did I come up with? 5 different areas, client development and growth, financial performance, efficiency and productivity, practice management, and strategic growth. We can dive into those in a minute, but Sarah, what are you thinking?

Well, and so when I did a little bit more research too, 'cause I know we talk about this quite a bit and we tailor a lot of these conversations with our current clientele based on their needs. But some high-level items that came up for me was the essentials. We need to look at the essentials, the technology stack and the tools we're utilizing as part of that implementation pieces, because it's good to talk about them, but then a lot of people park it on the shelf.

Exactly.

Implementation is hard. And then from there, then it's looking at probably through the lens of, you know, each individual. Like, if you're going to implement it, doing it on a case-by-case for some things to have success story, to the snowball effect, have your wins. Um, and then recommendations, or kind of going back through and figuring out what are some gaps or areas that have improvement needs to happen. So I think you've got a good core fundamental base is what you shared with me this morning, which is great. And then we can kind of just side road into little areas, maybe give some examples to support how—

Sure, sure.

Yeah.

You know, I like to, I always like to start the KPI discussion with a client by saying, and Lynda is always good at reminding people of this too, is pick just a couple to start with. Do not overwhelm yourself because some people get really excited about KPIs and in, in the law firm, and then they're like, oh, we're going to do this one, we're going to do that one. And to your point, it goes on the shelf then because they're just overwhelmed with all the data gathering they have to do. So if you can— you've, you know, Rome wasn't built in a day, a house isn't built in a day, a car isn't built in a day, and neither are KPIs. You know, it's, it's a work in progress.

Yeah, it's another way to, um, for you to kind of assess the, the health of your business through a simple method, right? Like a I mean, if you pick 5, it is overwhelming. Pick 2 or 3, pick what is—

Grow into it. Add them as you conquer them.

Yeah, yeah. We've had people present, and Lynda and I, they've presented us and come to us and said, I need all these reports and I need all these different ways. And sometimes we'll ask them, what are you looking at? What is the value of this data? And if they can't answer that, and you're giving it to your CFO, that to me is a problem with your relationship at that point. We need to understand why we're doing these things. It's beyond just, you know, client retention or WIP or any of those things. It's we need to really focus on some key metrics that make sense for your growth. Where do you start? Where do you kind of like slice the apple first?

Well, you know, what's your pain point? That's a good question to ask when diving into KPIs. What are your pain points? Which ones do you want to address first? And as you grow into them and you conquer them, you just move on to the next one and the next one and the next one.

Yeah.

But some examples, some examples like in client development and growth is the new client acquisition rate. How many new clients are you bringing in per month or quarter or year or however you want to measure that? There's ways to do that. You know, in your CRM software might have some of that information. Somebody in your law firm might be tracking that. You just have to sit down and think about what do I want to measure in client development and growth with the new acquisition rate? Do I want to look at it by month? What's my practice area? How many practice areas do I have? How are they each individually growing? So, you could take that one metric right there in a KPI and break it down into 5 or 6 different subjects. And there's, there's a bunch of work to do on that one before you jump into another KPI.

I'm going to ask you a question on that topic because sometimes you're in an evolution of different stages with technology. Maybe you don't have something that's tracking it. If you do, great. But some people I see, they're just handing us a spreadsheet of how they—

I was going to say you could do that on a spreadsheet. It's not that— that's not rocket science on that KPI.

Yeah, it's not. But then to evaluate if you're looking at your tech stack or you're looking at how you're managing it, And then you want to make sure what's the referral source for each one. Because if you're predominantly just a Google search or predominantly just one referral source, that helps you understand how to diversify depending on your workflow and how—

Absolutely.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. And you know, then that flows into the next one. So we've got the new client acquisition rate. And then right after that is the client retention rate. So, depending on the type of law that you practice, your client retention rate will tell you a lot. And that's the percent of clients who return or engage in additional matters. And maybe you even want to take that deeper and say, maybe this one client refers a lot of business to me.

Yeah.

I'm not necessarily working for that client right now, but I am getting more business because of that client. Blend that into your client retention rate because those people are very important to you. Um, I think I gave an example in last week's podcast how there's an insurance broker here in the city where I live that I've referred a ton of business to him. It's health insurance. We live in one of those states where, um, the health— we have a health exchange, a state health exchange.

Yeah.

It's really robust and strong and popular. And I've referred a lot of law firms to him, and he's just so grateful. And he called me up and he said, "What's your favorite color? Red? If I gave you a choice, red, white, or black?" And I said, "I'll take red." And the next day, a nice package arrived at my home with a thank you gift in it.

Mm-hmm.

And he's working his KPI on client retention and on referrals and new acquisitions, and he's watching. And so, I had the opportunity to talk to him about his KPI. And, you know, it rang true to him. He's like, yeah, I'm watching this. I know where it's coming from. I know who to thank and who not to thank.

And that's nice. I mean, it's just so simple as a simple gift. Like you're saying, it's an advertise— another form of advertisement too, especially if you're branded, you've got a business card, additional services, those sorts of things. Um, but when you're a busy hustle— bustling law firm, right? And you are at that— sometimes you get away from that. You get away from understanding where the growth metric is coming in from. Exactly. How How, um, satisfactory are those cases? And so there's got to be a feedback loop, to your point, of a measure of a metric to be able to understand it and what intervals. And I think that comes down to, uh, not just the inbound but also the metric of managing a case to the— once it becomes a referral, then how— so having like intervals, pieces to be able to say, all right, we're gonna, you know, this person is a high referral. We have an agreement or a gift-giving policy or something, or advertisement policy that we have there to the last referral out the door. I've seen this where people give like, um, you know, like in construction, you— it's like a referral, uh, reward system. Well, for everyone you refer, you get $50. You get it like a monetary cash gain or something. Yeah. To me, it's more about longevity, like what your friend did for you. It's— he's acknowledging that he's managing it, but he's also acknowledging the person who's giving him the most referrals, and it's a trusted source. It's nice to be able to pass that off to someone that you can really have a relationship with and value that— those clientele together.

Well, and you know, KPIs are around us every day. They're out there every day. This morning, I think, you know, I raise koi fish.

Yeah.

And there, there's a pond supplier that I buy a lot of things from.

Yeah.

And I decided this year to try another pond supplier and see, because they had better rates on some stuff that's normally costly to me this time of year.

Mm-hmm.

The original pond supplier this morning, all of a sudden I got this nice gift card from them in the mail because I've bought from them for years and they're like, we miss you. Are you coming back? If you say yes, we have a gift for you. And I'm like, well, yeah, that's a KPI in, in the works right there. They're, you know, if you watch those things.

It's like what you're saying on your phone, you go to your coffee shop, you want your rewards. It's a way, obviously all of that is collection data, a way to monitor and support and randomly it'll send you, hey, we've got a deal going on. They may not have that deal for anybody else, I don't know.

And I'll tell you guys, if you're working with AI at all, you can throw your KPIs in there and have it start watching things. I mean, there's all kinds of different ways to do this.

Different ways to do it, yeah.

And the AI will give you so many different ideas.

In fact, I did my homework out of for this podcast out of AI this morning.

I was like, even though I love KPIs and I talk about them in the classes I teach at our bar association, I was like, AI, I want you to tell me what, for a law firm, what you're thinking. And it came up with— what did I get, like 20 of them?

Yeah, we have standards that we know about the realization rate, all the things that are pretty much standard metrics that are discussed in a lot of things. But how do you take the ones that you want, cherry-pick the ones you want to measure? And we're just talking about the front end, but how do you kind of drip campaign that for yourself? Like, how do you make it so you are actually doing the work without such a heavy lift? You have systems in place that allow you to measure these things and tracking it from the beginning. It's hard, or tracking it in the middle. You've decided now, I'm gonna open the door, I'm gonna start tracking it. It's simple as a spreadsheet, like you said, it's as simple as watching who's referring you.

Well, I'm gonna go back to the pain points. What are your pain points? What do you wanna change? What causes you stress? What keeps you awake at night? What do you wanna fix? What are you happy with? What would make you even happier? And don't forget, if you're solo, I mean, it's gonna be pretty easy to come up with what your KPIs are because you're gonna focus laser, laser focus on—

Focus on yourself.

On growth in yourself and, and what you're going to do to really go gangbusters. But if you're a multi-partner firm or you have employees, include them in this. It's a lot of fun. And, you know, once you put the workflow in place, you can have somebody monitoring it and reporting. And I'll tell you, I worked for an airline for a while, and the airline— this is why I first learned KPIs, was at this airline.

Oh.

And they wanted to do an upsell program. If you— if they didn't have so many seats sold on a flight by the time the flight left, like let's say between, um, classes on the aircraft, we could, we could upsell at the gate. And so that was a KPI. And, you know, how many upsells did we have, and how much more revenue did it bring in, and how much more revenue per seat did it bring in, and how full was the flight, and, you know, did— do the— what percentage of the flights left late because of the upsells? And there was all kinds KPIs that were figured in there, and it became a huge program. We got to be a test location here in Denver for it, and it was hugely successful, and off it went. Um, that was a KPI.

You know, you're talking about something that's pretty interesting too. When you're in a certain size of a firm, there are people that want their own feedback. They may not ask it in that way, but they want to see their measured metric themselves. So how do you set up individual dashboards or ways for them to see their own performance so that you want to feel, you know, you're one of many in a place, you want to feel that you're contributing a good value of workload and diversity of things. And so there are, you know, a plethora of tools out there that can work to your advantage to figure those things out. How much your bill time, how much your unbilled time. I mean, honestly, I think that Legal Trends Report that Clio does I was just going to say Clio. Yeah, it has a lot of that, just sort of how to measure it, what's the metric and those sorts of things. But there are a lot of other softwares out there too. We just are leaning into that one because we've read it the most, I feel like, where you can have your own way of understanding, like, all right, I've got this case, it came in, how quickly did I start working on it? How much time have I spent on it? Are the owners of the firm even charging the right value rate? Is it a flat fee billing? Is it— What is it? And you can't get better at that stuff unless you're— there's a way to track that information. So to your point, going back to it, it's like you measure the inbound, but you got to measure the inside, how it's working.

So. Well, you know, to your point, there's a lot of softwares that will do that. And in that arena, we're going to talk about efficiency and productivity. And, you know, I came up with what, 4 of those this morning, the billable hours per attorney or timekeeper. These— now this next little chunk of KPIs is one of my most favorite ones because especially because I teach the new solo attorney class at our bar association every August.

Yeah.

I teach the accounting section of that, and I always like to hone in on the KPIs for efficiency and productivity. Is it worth it to you, new attorney, to do your own bookkeeping, or is it worth it to you to charge an hourly rate of $300, $500, whatever your hourly rate is to build your business, and what does that KPI look like? So—

Oh, that's a great question.

You know, if you're doing all the marketing and you're not outsourcing to a legal marketing firm, and you're doing the bookkeeping and you're not outsourcing that, how much time are you actually billing every day? What is the metric? What percentage? I wanna, for some reason, I can't grasp the number in my head this morning, but there is a metric out there that the actual billable hours percentage per day per attorney, it's this dismal number because of— yeah, you know what I'm talking about.

You're talking about—

that's been published in, in the Legal Trends Report as well as, um, and that's the utilization rate, if you will, the billable hours versus the total available hours to work. And when you take a look at that KPI you can really hone in on what's going on inside your business.

Yeah. Yeah.

And how productive are you and really tweak that.

Well, I feel like we're in— you brought this up earlier. We're in a day and age now. We have a lot of tools in front of us, AI tools in front of us, not so that we can just, you know, use it for email support or whatever it is, research support. It's also a part of some automation or ways to query your software to find out if it's offered in your software to find out certain places like where cases are, where what's up and coming, and find automation support in that. And what's interesting is when you're looking at how much time you have an 8-hour day, And let's say you only have recorded a quarter of valuable work that could be billed in that day, which is, I think, essentially where that number kind of rests. I can't remember. It wasn't very high. It was abysmal, really. And, and then when you look at what's the other time spent, how does— how do you track that, right? How does that come in? Where does that go? And my hope is As tools become more efficient, it's telling us where our time is spent. Or is it time spent because we have an overwhelming response rate to emails that are not relevant to a case file?

Who can respond to those? Who can organize your email? I'm going to jump in there. Who can organize your emails? Or who— do you have an assistant that can help organize all of that? Or do you have an app that can help do all of that?

You know, do it well too. That's the hard thing is We, we say all this, but you also need to invest in the system like you would any person. Um, you— it— and that's also of time value as well. But there are ways that you can help yourself get to these metrics, I feel like, is what you're saying, Steve, without maybe too much of a heavy lift at times, depending on what you're tracking.

It's not rocket science. That's why you— that's why you break it down to the small. Start small and let it grow.

Okay. So here's my question. Would it be smart? Because we're— a lot of us are in there. So just pen and paper, you literally just write it in pen and paper, or would it be smart to put it on a Google Sheet or a task reminder, like have it in your calendar of when you want to measure these metrics, these essential— like, let's say you pick one a week, one consistently. I mean, what's a good way to get this in your system to make sure you're measuring.

You know what I like to do and what I recommend others to do is get a chart software. And what's that one? Chart.io, I think. And chart it out. What makes this metric happen? And you create the boxes for all the things that make it happen. And you put those, those different pieces in those boxes and then you draw your arrows out to the side and who affects those boxes. Within the law firm, you know, is it the receptionist that's affecting that? Or, you know, are they— what do they do? And so then there's more boxes that come off the side of that. And then the next box down might be the paralegals and how are they involved in this process? And you break it all down.

Is that all done in ChartIO? Is that like an AI thing? I can just tell it to do that.

Is it Chart.IO? I can't remember.

No, it would be nice if you could just tell it to do something like that.

I think you can. I think you can. You know, I was sharing with you before the podcast this morning. How about a productivity KPI in my company this morning? I was literally able to design a form and have this recording software record the processes for me in 15 minutes.

I love that.

That's a productivity KPI in my company because that was behind-the-scenes work. That wasn't accounting work, but it had an effect on the accounting work. And so, you know, that comes into that. But that charting software, you chart all the steps out that that have, that cause things to happen in that KPI. And then you get the people involved and you're like, okay, here's our goal with this KPI. You can reward people for great KPI performance, or you can get them excited about the process because your team is going to have so many ideas. They're going to go, you know, I was afraid to tell you what really is a time suck for me. Mm-hmm. And the KPIs bring those sort of things out. Or they're like, if we just tried this, oh my God, I've wanted to do this for so long. You know, they get all excited and pumped up about the KPI. Or you just get the deer in headlights look, and that means that the chart doesn't make sense. And so you've got to break it down even further. This is how— what it means to you, Sarah, in your job in this law firm.

Yeah, you have to be able to make it something that allows somebody to have some growth and experience in it as well. It can't just be thrown at them and then expect, all right, here, just do it. Which, I mean, we're all in a fast-paced world, we're all doing it, but these are great in order to implement some of these KPI pieces. So okay, let's go through high level. Let's go back because we kind of went everywhere, I feel like. So let's go through what are like—

I'm just excited, I just bounce off the walls with KPIs.

I hear you. So maybe can you like just list out, is there like a good driver you could list out of metrics that are predominantly used in law firms, whether you're solo or in a good size firm, ones that you know outside of, because we all know everyone wants to know they're originating and they're responsible attorney and they want to know what they're going to make based on their revenues earned. But what else is inside of it that's good for a firm owner? What else do we have to measure?

I'm going to tell you some really important ones that are the bane of every law firm out there. Are you ready?

I'm ready.

Work in progress, WIPs.

Yep.

Accounts receivable. How old is the accounts receivable and how long does it average those types of percentages? Those are huge. Larger, mid-sized to larger law firms right now, employee retention and employee turnover. And with the wackadoodle way that our economy is going up and down right now, I really think attorneys are going to get busier. Um, but you need to look at that, that KPI on the new client acquisition rate and then break that down even further. How many of them stay with you for a period of time? What value is their work? What buckets are they falling in? If you are a multi-practice law firm and you, you cater to lots of different things— divorce, criminal law, um, DUIs, whatever— you know, how full are those different buckets and what do they mean to you? And how much money are you making? And how much are the WIPs and how much are the receivables? In each of those buckets. That's not a lot of hard work. And that, that completely has an impact on your bottom line immediately.

We have client satisfaction and employee satisfaction is what I'm hearing in order for these two big drivers to help move. And then inside of that, we have accounts receivable. How much is aging? I would love to know how many times are we discounting to be able to track that? How much is being written off?

How much is not even being billed? Cost receivables.

Cost receivables. Yeah. Okay. So those are really big drivers. So what, what are some other things that— I mean, those are like core. So are there other things inside of our list that are really—

Open and closed matters. Every single month, if you just simply tally how many open matters are there and how many closed matters are there and how much staff do I have and what does the labor cost what look like when it relates to that.

Okay.

So I have 150 open matters. I closed 19 of them this month and my payroll was this much, payroll and benefits was this much. What's that percentage look like against all of that? That you can just— you can, you can have AI do that. I mean, you can expand like crazy on that KPI and get, you know, it's going to tell you early on, Sarah, if you need to look at bringing in another employee or if you need to right-size and move employees around into different things until more business comes in. Yeah, yeah.

Well, that's why I was going to ask you too, because like, okay, let's just take what— I mean, given the current market, immigration obviously is the forward front focus right now, right? For a lot of things in the news media and all of that stuff.

And their KPIs are all—

can be really But they're like a firehose right now. They can't even hire fast enough.

Right.

So it's like how to handle the volume for that. And, you know, I don't want to say a normal immigration year. I don't even know what that means anymore, really, for the last several years now. But if you were to see this, you might need to shift your valuable employees to doing this other style of work. Where maybe you have to shift a middle band where it's the support of the paralegals or administrative support that helps bring this up so that the, the fewer people you have as attorney, uh, at that higher level, maybe those people are doing less of the admin stuff and they're help— they're being supported by, you know, teams of—

All hands on deck when it, when it's Necessary. You know what, one of my favorite KPIs in, in, like, in immigration, because of, of the volume and how they turn it, and, um, you know, one person brings another person brings another person sort of environment, and in, um, corporate law and in, in a lot of the, the standard types of law practices— DUI, um, divorce rates and all that sort of stuff— one of the biggest KPIs, and it's not on the list I brought up this morning, but is what is your trust ledger balance?

Mm-hmm.

That is future money in the bank, folks. Don't be afraid to ask for those retainers. Don't be afraid to do evergreen retainers. Don't be afraid to talk to your clients about how the trust process works, because the bigger that ledger is, the higher that balance is in that ledger, that's strength. That's the foundation of future cash flow in your firm, and that KPI is huge.

Yeah, and you want to make sure that you're measuring the metric to bill appropriately once earned. Sometimes there, there's disconnect with that where people sort of fail to realize, oh, that case, like you're saying, you're— how many open cases per month, how many closed cases per month, are they actually getting closed? Are we cleaning up the activities that haven't been billed so that we can ensure that we haven't missed anything, expenses and those those things. I feel like the biggest thing, Steve, though, is if you don't know how to implement this, it will result to a poor alignment for yourself. So it's— that's why I was trying to like get some nitty-gritty of how can we help you understand how to do this and then implement these with—

So again, start small, pick out a couple of them to start with, find out what those KPIs are about You know, what— that's why I say chart it out or just take a spreadsheet, a piece of paper, whatever works. Get the process out. What do you want to learn from this KPI and how do you get there? Who's involved? What are all the little pieces of it? It's kind of fun because it makes you think about your business. It makes you think about what you have to do to make this thing work instead of not liking it.

Yeah, because you do see a lot of, uh, you know, firms merge because purely because it's hard to be an owner. You know, you're exhausted from being an owner or tapped out on a certain level of need and responsibility. So, you know, you just made me think visually attorneys, it is easier on a visual way to see this. It is easier to like literally it doesn't mean—

Exactly.

You just draw it out for yourself and then you have Since we're task-oriented, you know, a lot of us are, our professions are so similar.

So similar.

It's like, do you draw it out and then you have tasks where you set up successful little times where you meet? Is it a 15-minute catch-up of like, hey—

That's a brilliant idea, Sarah. I like that a lot.

Okay, yeah.

Have a KPI staff meeting once a month. What did you do to make it different? Well, to like what I said a while ago, you can reward on KPI successes. Yeah. You know, celebrate them.

Yeah, you need to change your reward system, basically. I mean, we've talked about bonus structures in the past and the, the old way of doing it and the normal way of doing it and the, the future way of doing it. And, and we do have a generation change. We do have a change in how this next group that's coming through is going to work and how do we sustain them. And we have to recognize we don't have long-term You're not doing a lifer style thing. You don't work for a firm for 40 years, right? So what does it look like and how does that change for how you choose to have maybe a metric based on employee-based incentives versus customer acquisitions? So there's some—

Well, you've heard this saying before many times, but KPIs are nothing more than the old phrase of what gets measured gets done.

So true.

That's beautiful. That's all they are. That's all they are. So figure out what you want to get done and realize that you can't do it all overnight so you don't burn yourself out. But hold it close to your chest and embrace your KPIs. And my goodness, you'll see your business change.

And be okay. As one of my mentors said, you put it out there and be okay for it to go off the rails. Circle it back, realign it. Be okay with that process. I know there's a lot of folks out there that want perfection and they want it done right from the get-go. And, you know, to me, that's already a sign of failure. We just need to be okay with starting a process and incrementally allowing ourselves to be uncomfortable with the change to move it forward.

So I think— You know, that's funny you would say that because so often on our end of the stick, they, they come to us about a KPI and, you know, we want to do this, let's boom, boom, And the next day they're like, well, what do you see? And it's like, slow down. We've got to put it together. We've got to embrace it. We've got to map it out. We've got to see what makes it work, what makes it tick, what it means to you, Mr. Law Firm Owner. You know, what does it mean to you? You've got to be brutally honest with us what you're looking for. I was in a meeting the other day, a face-to-face meeting, presenting the financials to a client I dearly love that joined us. Oh, I love her. About a— just a little over a year ago.

Okay.

Their law firm is doing quite well. They're, they're settling in. The first year is over with, the shakedown is done. And I said to them, guess what, we're at the point where we can start comparing this month to last year this month and so on, because you've been open a year now. We finally have reached that pinnacle, and now we can add some KPIs. And they were like, yeah, let's do it, let's do it. I said, okay, let's think about a couple that you really want and come back to me. Yep, just a few ones and we'll get started. So I'm excited that we're at that point, and that fills my heart up that we, we've made it to that, that point with them.

We're so geeky about this stuff, friends.

I know.

We don't even tell you. We should be telling you. However, it's an advisory tool that we want to make sure that is, um, also evaluated and we're compensated for fairly too. So to support you because we do get excited about your businesses. So—

Exactly. We're part of it. Just because we're behind the scenes and you don't see us in the office every day, we're here working. Great discussion, Sarah.

Yeah.

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Well, that was awesome. Thank you.

Thank you very— I just got distracted by, by something that crawled across my desk and I don't know what it is.

Oh my God.

That's why I was looking down.

That's, oh, ooh, not for me.

I was sitting at my desk one day and a spider came down in front of me and I'm like, "Not now.

That's just not right." That's happened to me in a car and I hate it, but—

Oh my God, yes, horrible.

Thank you so much, Steve, for leading us through that discussion. Thank you, everybody. Bye-bye.

Bye, everyone.