Law Firm Gifting with Meranda Vieyra

Welcome to Accountants Law Pod, where accounting professionals and law firms converge. Hosted by Lynda Artesani, Sarah Prevost, and Stephen Libhart.

Welcome back to the podcast, everybody. And this week we have a really interesting topic. I don't think I've ever seen this topic anywhere else, so it will be like a first one. And we have an amazing guest. So the topic today is called law firm gifting. Our guest today is Miranda Vieira, and she's with Denver Legal Marketing. So welcome. Nice to have you.

Yes.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Happy Friday, everybody.

Hey, yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

So, you know, the thing about law firm gifting, I think it's something that's not really thought about. Like, we see it a lot where they're like, oh, I bought them Super Bowl tickets.

You did what?

That's not a write-off. No, I took them to Super Bowl because not only are they gifting it, they're going as well. I had a way to get it done and pay for it with business funds.

And those are thousands of dollars.

Yes.

For one time a year.

Exactly. And entertainment is not a—

Sarah's favorite line is, well, you can spend $25 or less or whatever it is. I'm like, what? Why is it so low?

Hey, we don't—

It's only 1%.

That's right.

So why do law firms gift to clients? Why do they do it?

You know, just to kind of kick off, I think law firms gift to clients for lots of different reasons in lots of different ways. I think it depends on the type of law firm. I certainly have seen law firms do exactly what you're saying, kind of Super Bowl, box suite tickets, you know, just kind of out-of-state things like that. And then I've seen smaller touches of customized journals with a nice pen, you know, maybe some sustainably made socks, like made out of bamboo that, you know, don't really have anything to do with anything except maybe I care and I hope you take care of yourself, or maybe it's a just because. So the biggest issue here is that they have to do it. They should do it, if that makes sense. It's part of— Yeah. Kind of a strategic branding, business development, and marketing campaign is what I would suggest.

And you think it's very successful, obviously, but don't you think it has to be more— I mean, yes, Super Bowl tickets is a great, great— I mean, you won't forget that, but you want it to be memorable. And, you know, this guy that's here on our show, he's excellent at figuring out what people love. And it's always something he just picks up the cues, which is really what you have to do if you're going to gift a client, pick up on the little things. That you might not think— that shows you're paying attention too, don't you think?

I think so. I mean, I— to me, strategic gifting is more about strengthening relationships. It's potentially about client retention. People choose lawyers, right? They don't choose law firms. And so, uh, you know, in cases where attorneys are interested in mobility, maybe you should have a higher visit— visibility with your client base if you're looking at doing something else in the future. If you intend to have a long-term relationship with them, these are one way, uh, gifts are one way for you to kind of stay top of mind regardless, uh, of, of what's going on in, in a really good way, I would suggest.

So you kind of do a lot of—

oh, sorry, sorry.

Oh, I was, I was going to say, so you kind of like— I love what you just said because you are a brand. So it might be you're in a law firm, but you are your own brand by your own self, by your nature of your relationship. And so then that would change the dynamics of the referral. Like, I think that's where you were just going to go, Lynda, is in the referral section, right?

Yeah. I mean, law firms, if you ask most attorneys, how do you get your clients? And the majority of them will tell you, well, I'm referral-based. And what better way to get referrals than to gift them with something that will make them remember that you were that special, you went that extra you went the extra mile for them and you thought— were thoughtful enough to send something extra, like the case is over, the matter's over. I mean, Sarah and I, when we get referrals, we send out a nice card. We've got this company and I can't remember the name of it. Sarah, you might have to help me out. But with this company— I know I'm in charge, but we have this company that you can personalize a card where it looks like handwriting and then you pick this little gift. And we found these little special box of caramels that we would send out. Mm-hmm. It's not expensive. It fits that rule. So we get away with the rule because it's underneath the cost of it. But you always get that person will come back to you and go, oh my God, how did you know these caramels? And it's made by like a little small place that's in somewhere in Oregon. It just makes them— I'll have to remember it eventually.

That's how my brain remembers things.

I was at the Colorado Bar Association with Miranda last week, and we came out of the presentation room. She reached in her purse and she goes, here, you want some chocolates? And here was this lovely box with a beautiful ribbon on it and Denver Legal Marketing. I'm like, there she is. She's just on the spot with this gift. I loved it. And so I'm driving down the road eating chocolates and thinking of Miranda.

Not a bad thing.

That's so brilliant.

I had to— I love all of that. Yeah, I love all of that.

That's awesome.

But I will say, yes, it's a branded experience. And just to kind of follow up on what Steve is talking about, we were at a bar association conference. We were all giving lectures, and I had the woman that makes chocolates for my company. They're small batch chocolates. Sometimes they have caramel and sea salt.

Oh, they're so good.

They're very inexpensive. And I'm talking about, like, a 4-piece.

Yeah, it's like a little— Yeah.

So I'm not trying to change anybody's life with that chocolate. But what I am trying to do is make them smile. What I am trying to do is, is make them understand how much I appreciate them, how much I've given thought into my participation in that event. So I showed up at that event, and I, I was able to provide chocolates to the administration of the Colorado Bar Association, including the people that invited me to speak at that event. And then I also had some extras for my friends that were there. So, you know, so Steve had some, and, and a few other folks that I ran into. So I do think gifting is a year-round thing. I don't, I don't see it as just a holiday thing or anything like that. For me, this is actually part of my, my business, uh, strategy for staying in contact with people, for thanking referral sources. I mean, just to circle back to that, in my experience being in Colorado law for a little over 25 years, selling legal services professionally for 100 years, it feels like, you know, the warmest referrals that ever come into a law firm are from attorneys, always, hands down. Attorney-to-attorney referrals will always be the warmest ones. These are the clients that pay the bills, right? You all know that. You see the invoicing. These are the clients that really don't— they don't feel the need to necessarily kind of put put a new law firm through the beauty contest process. Usually they know and they like and they trust whoever is sending them there, and so they end up kind of trusting the referral. So it's kind of winning all the way around for law firms that have a strong referral base. And I absolutely agree, Lynda. I thank my referral sources. I keep that wheel greased. I want them to know I appreciate this. This is the lifeblood of my small businesses from word of mouth referrals. I also think it's super important to celebrate, you know, through, through gifting. So when my referral sources have something awesome happen in their life, I send them something, a little note, a little, you know, box of chocolate, a custom journal, something like that. That just, just kind of is a small touch. Doesn't have to be a gazillion dollars. But what they realize is that I care. Mm-hmm., right? So for me, you know, the referral source gifting for law firms is kind of a no-brainer and all over the place.

And the power of handwritten note too, right? The power of a handwritten note is huge because we don't do that anymore. So it's even more powerful.

You know, and, and I agree that the— and so what's really neat about it, I mean, you get extra points if, uh, so you've got maybe hand Maybe you've got branded note cards that you send out. Maybe they're just a flat rectangle with your brand on it and you write, you know, it's thank you again for that referral and you stick it in an envelope. And maybe there's a little sticker on the back of the envelope that's your law firm's logo. So, or maybe the box that comes in is branded with your law firm's colors. They don't necessarily need to eat, I joke about this, they don't necessarily need to eat your logo. It doesn't have to be chocolate in the shape of your logo.

There are other ways to kind trying to make this an experience, right?

And you're going beyond the, the pen, like the, you know, the pens that people hand out, or the, like, the calendar, the little mini calendars. Totally.

So that— yeah, I mean, we've got it. Yeah, you're in this weird balance when it comes to gifting, right? So you don't want— some of it is really pretty trash, you know what I mean? It's, it's branded, you know, and, and in that regard, maybe you know, your law firm uses sustainable packaging for your gifting or something. Maybe that's more in line with your brand, or maybe everything is in the same colors as your logo or something like that.

Sure.

But what we're looking for— so you were talking about the Super Bowl tickets, and law firms spend a lot of money on, you know, having those experiences, but you can experience through gifting too, right? That little moment that Steve was describing of, exhausted driving home from that crazy conference and eating some chocolate that he did not have to stop at a store to buy or anything.

That was just there.

Just kept me on a Burger King.

Totally. The intentional gifting is what I'm hearing, which I love. It's really the intent. It's not just the celebration of, oh, it's your birthday or it's your anniversary, or, oh, we just won the case, so I'm just going to give you this gift and you'll never hear from me again.

Buy the house, the realtor gives you a gift, right?

Yeah, it's the intention.

Even us, Sarah, I mean, we do that with our team. So we get through these periods of time. We're all chipping in. We've had, unfortunately, once in a while a weekend and everybody jumps in and has to do something because we have a deadline. And Sarah and I will come up with something that's crazy out of the box. You wouldn't even expect. And all of a sudden, we call ourselves the unicorns. So we sent out t-shirts to everybody in our team. We all have a unicorn t-shirt and surprised them with it. We've surprised them a few times with different things. And it's— I think that's what— because you don't want to do it even with bonuses, right? You give a bonus out, ho ho ho, it's Christmas, everybody gets a bonus. But give a bonus when they're not expecting it. That will get you more of a bounce, I think, than that Christmas bonus. And I'm sure you still give the Christmas bonus, but the other one comes out of the blue because they did something so good for you that you want to recognize that. And I think those are the things that— And I sometimes think the little t-shirt-y things and the other things actually seem to do more because you went out of your way to do something for them. It wasn't just writing a check. It wasn't just that kind of a gift.

Well, you have one of our gifts on your desk or in your office right now that we— That's the beauty of The Secret.

A squirrel.

Not the squirrel, the unicorn planter.

Yes, the unicorn. Yeah, he's over there.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was so cute.

It came with gummy bears and it came with, it was cute. It was so cute. It was a plant. And it was really, really cute.

Yeah. You know, one of the vendors, one of the legal vendors that we work with, and I'll put it up backwards, but they sent out these little—

Oh yeah.

Oh my God, I love my phone holder.

I love my phone holder.

I love my phone holder. I mean, and there's their name every day on my desk.

But we also had at the conference, and I always am interested to see what people, the vendors give out, the software vendors give out. And one software vendor, and it was the talk of the conference, had Legos and you went in and made your little self in an office. And I don't know why, to me, conceptually, that was an idea that Sarah or Steve said, let's do this. I would have said, no way, we're not doing Legos. Everybody was showing their Lego. And where'd you get that? I got that at which one was it, Sarah, that had the Legos?

I'm trying to remember. Canopy. It is Canopy. And I lost— I didn't put my desk together. My son's girlfriend did it for me, but I lost my little person who was strategically aligned with my coffee and money in each hand.

It was really cute though.

I mean, I never thought of that. And that's something that's not your norm.

It's not your— Here's my coffee.

So yeah, so yeah, it was interesting. I thought that was pretty cool.

It was a genius way. But I think if we could go— so I'm curious about sort of the what, when, how kind of scenario. Like, with— if it's a new client or an established client or another business, because you do— in the law firm community, there's referral referral, and there's obviously cash to that transaction, um, that happens for referral to referral. But how does— where do you see this, Miranda, in your experience and kind of your knowledge?

Yeah, this is— that's a really good question. So in In my experience, I think there are a couple of different audiences for strategic law firm gifting. I think number one would be people they don't know yet. So potential clients, potential employees, potential vendors. I mean, there's so many ways to kind of start the chatter about your law firm. I think when we're talking about stuff like that, the, the greater the utility or the greater the quality is really what's gonna make what's going to keep your stuff out of the donation pile or the trash pile or whatever it is.

Okay.

So if, if you are going to start giving away stuff like that, you do want to make sure it's, it's, you know, at least of a higher quality where people will keep it. Right. And then I also see law firms gifting to their current clients. And I think smart law firms always do some holiday— they always do holiday gifting. That's kind of one of the major ones. And I see that either between November to December or even into January for kind of a new year.

Yeah.

Of gifting or kind of touchpoint. I see smart law firms also celebrating the off holidays. So I'm going to use my company, for example. I sent out Valentine gifts last year to my clients and to my vendors. And again, with the chocolate, because I'm, you know, I love that stuff. And so, but I did, I just sent a little note And I can't tell you how many emails, text messages, just thank yous of— and I didn't send it on Valentine's Day. I sent it, you know, I think the first week of February. So it stood out, right? People are already on chocolate. Hilarious. And so it really does kind of help when it's on the off, if that makes sense. If any of you— Yeah. And I know you all have worked with law firms. If any of all of you have worked in law firms, you understand what happens in December. The entire group kitchen is popcorn. It's Hillshire Farm. I mean, like, it is just exploding with whatever is shareable, right?

But it ends.

There's like that 3-week period, and they'll stick the note of whoever, you know, gave, gave the item to the law firm. But, but that's it, right? So you can see why a February or a January gift kind of stands out a little bit more. You see by, you know, even like a summer gift or an end of the— like you were talking about when you onboard a new client or when they're finished with their matter, some sort of celebratory capstone works really well. I also see law firms being super intentional by noting the month that their client or their, you know, their main— maybe it's their main client contact, maybe the month of their birthday, right? Mm-hmm. Maybe they had a baby. I'm big on this. I celebrate weddings. I celebrate babies and anniversaries and all of that stuff. And I do it sincerely. So again, I'm not trying to change your life, be Oprah and give them a car. I can't do that. But what I can do is a little touchpoint to say, hey, I'm proud of you. I'm cheering you on.

You and I have that relationship, Miranda, over the years that we've worked together. If something is going going on with one of us. Like when my mom passed away, here came something from Miranda. You know, I was struggling with something. I, you know, she's— last time I sent you flowers, remember?

I mean, my grandfather died.

Yes.

And I was struggling with something in my business a few weeks ago, and here came this book from Miranda, you know. I mean, I mean, it arrived at my house and I'm like, here's something from Miranda. I love her, you know.

And talk about that one offline. But yes.

Yeah. And you know, I agree with that. I agree with doing that year round. And when you operate a law firm, find out when their birthdays are, their anniversaries are, clients and staff. And, you know, if a client, especially attorneys have this great opportunity dealing with stressed out clients, you know, and if you've got somebody who's just, you know, maybe you just closed a deal or maybe you lost the case, send them to a day spa or, you know, get them that bottle of wine or whatever. It doesn't have to be always a celebration, but it's that touch. I care. And that's what you mean to me, Miranda. That box of chocolates is still— the box is still sitting on the dash of my truck. I won't take it out.

Well, it's life is like a box of chocolates, right? Like, there's some right there.

There you go. It's true, though. I mean, it's just these little moments where you kind of take stock of who's necessary in your business, who do you want to attract to your business, who do you care about? In your professional circle. And then some of this stuff is made a lot easier of just, of course, I want to send Steve a copy of Attraction. He's going to make notes all over this just the same that I do. And that is one of my signature gifts is to send books. I send chocolates and small things like that. I'll send charcuterie boards to people that don't require anything but just open the box, and start, you know. So I do think the corporate gifting is dependent, you know, not on just on your budget, but like the timeframe, who your audience is. And, you know, the biggest thing here is, is sincerity. You know, it's— you could go to Costco and buy all this stuff, but it's going to feel like you went to Costco and bought all this stuff, you know, and maybe a smaller box of chocolate that costs $10 and and 20 minutes of your time to mail it and put a little note, you know, maybe that carries you way farther than, you know, buying something monster, if that makes sense.

Yeah, I had a— in one of my many different professional groups, a lady that I just admire wholeheartedly, her name's Brittany Brown, and in her company, which is tailored to e-commerce, and she has a very large staff of accountants and bookkeepers with her. And she was talking about her book club. And then she'll kind of like what you said, Miranda. She'll send out if there's a book that's moving her on the entrepreneurial side, she'll send that out to, I think, a few of them or a couple of clients just as a, hey, this was, this was in our book club, in our company book club. And I thought, you know, that's such sincerity from the standpoint of I got moved by this as an owner. I'd like to share this with you. And I just loved the messaging around it because it came from exactly what you said, your— that intentional piece that you wanted to share. That's really nice.

And that's the real thing here is that, you know, the intention behind strategic giving for law firms is really to appreciate, right? It's to probably strengthen a relationship. It's probably a visibility touchpoint. And, you know, the What you don't want to do is do it wrong, right?

Yeah.

Doing it super stock or by making it feel impersonal, forced. I mean, there are lots of ways to mess this up and there are lots of ways to do it right by just being sincere about it. If you know they like the San Francisco 49ers and you see something kind of neat when you're on a road trip, pick it up and send it to them. If you drive past their hometown on a road trip or something like that, take a photo and just text it to the— I mean, it doesn't even have to be like a physical thing. Yeah, it can be just because in the moment, you know, and, and just kind of having that mindset of this is really how I acknowledge the people that are really making my business fun or my business profitable or the community that I want to be of service to. It's a whole different game when it comes to gifting. It's pretty fun, actually.

Yeah, it sounds—

How do you, here comes the big accounting question.

Okay.

How do you, when you're working with a law firm, determine what the budget should be for gifting and things like that?

So it's hard.

It is. Yeah, that—

Thanks for that answer.

Yeah, that was not an easy one. And, you know, it'll seem, it'll seem like I'm trying to avoid the question because I kind of have to. It's dependent on, you know, their budget. It's dependent on who the audience is. For instance, if they're sending a gift basket to the CEO of an NFL team or a Fortune 500—

Good point.

Be careful, you know, don't send them something cheap. Don't say, you know, you want to know your audience, number one. So I The budget depends on who you're in front of, right? And also what the message is. Is the message a thank you? Is it, you know, that type of thing? But I think in general, when you start from the place, because I think the best strategies when it comes to budgeting are based on who you're giving to. So maybe your A-list clients, the top 10% of your clients that give your law firm the top 10% of the business or the business referrals.

Like that.

They might get a different tier than X, Y, and Z. You know what I mean? And that's okay. And honestly should be that way. I also think for law firms, depending on their practice area, for clients or for referrals, they need to be careful of kind of industry issues. I know there's some industries where they can't gift or they can't accept gifts, like financial services sometimes. Mm-hmm.

Government.

There are lots of places where you can get a polite no thank you, and that's— that doesn't feel good either.

So, well, if you're government— Part of knowing your audience. Yeah, if you're in government service, that's also like, you can't— if that person moved on to such a space that's political in some form, you've— that's not a space you play and pay kind of thing. You have to be careful again.

So Lynda and Sarah, what do you guys tell your clients when they ask about if they're tax deductible and, you know, what kind is tax deductible, what dollar amount, what are we saying to people?

Well, you follow the IRS guidelines, right? But there is, this is where my question comes in. There is marketing going on in here. You have a business card in there. There is this element of advertisement that's going on that's a slightly different way. It just depends on, I think it's kind of like knowing your audience is knowing what that is and making sure you have correct guidance and you have the correct pieces together to make sure what is intentionally happening and what can be booked on the books and it has clarity. If it means that we have to check with the tax professional to make sure we get the guidance, then we do because I've seen this before. I've heard this story before where this gentleman was doing, you know, elaborate shopping at a grocery market that's not expensive, inexpensive, putting these gift baskets together and put a card in it. He's like, this is me advertising. And I don't remember the realm in which this individual was with the business side of it was, was working in. And with the proper guidance from the IRS saying yes, actually. We accept that it is that. But I'm not saying go out the door right now and go do that. You should very much— I mean, that's not our position. We would very much follow what's— what is our current guidance, black or white, and how old it is. And it's not— it's not been updated in I don't know how many years. But seek the guidance that you need to ensure that you're going to go down this endeavor in that way that's got the intention and the advertising that you need to have done. And if— accept the fact that if that's not the case and that's not the goal, that's okay too. If it's entertainment, just accept the fact that that's not a deductible amount that's going to happen for you.

So when you've got the difference of client entertainment, client development, firm marketing, I mean, you've got all those different categories to consider.

Yeah, it's not a— it's really, unfortunately, it's not black or white, right? It will be black or white But it, it does have an element of intentional conversations. So, but I, I totally agree with Miranda. Do it from a place of where you're coming from. This is an, an, a genuine moment. Do it from that standpoint. If you're looking for the other aspects on the accounting side, get your financial team engaged on that. Make sure it's not just the CPA that you're getting okay from. Make sure the accountant that's working with you understands it. So between tax and accounting, It's a full conversation and you go with that lead of intention. So.

But isn't it a gray line between advertising and gifting?

I'm sure it is, but I think really like what you're too, like you said, Lynda, like it, because it is gray, I think that's where we have to, in our professional space, as the stewards of us making sure that things are getting in the right space, we should lead with, hey, have, can we check on this? Can we have this conversation to ensure that we're meeting all these metrics that need to be met? Or, you know, like, we would love you, Oprah, but we're not buying cars. Like you said, I wonder what that looks like, right?

Totally. Yeah. And I, you know, I think you're right. I think a lot of people do it the other way of this is what we're going to buy and then and kind of ask for permission or guidance later. And I think more intentional law firms would probably start this conversation September or October of every year to start to figure out budget. And then, you know, like I said, like the tiers of gifting, if you're going to do it. And then kind of what is a business expense and what isn't, right? Because I do like the idea of kind of the over-the-top. I had an amazing time witnessing a really great business development experience in a box at the Taylor Swift concert last month.

Oh, wow.

It was amazing. And done right, you will never forget where you went, who took you, how much you enjoyed yourself. And that's those sticky factors, right? People choose lawyers and you don't forget who has done well by you, how they've treated you, right? So there are over-the-top ways to kind of do the expense and the gifting and entertainment altogether, you know. But I agree, this is— these are things that you should probably talk to your bookkeeper, your account— your accountant, your CPA, everybody, just like, um, about kind of what your boundaries are with that before you buy, before you, you know, Kind of.

Well, isn't, isn't business done on the golf course? I mean, it still is.

That was the next thing I was going to bring up was the golf tournaments and what you do with those.

Oh, I don't know what you do with those. I mean, I, I don't. Yeah.

Instead of it being the good old boys club playing golf and sharing in the kitty, you know, maybe they want to do a donation to a charity or maybe, you know, the law firm that's hosting it buys gifts for everybody that's in the tournament. And there's no prize kitty and that sort of, you know, making it more meaningful than just everybody going playing golf and drinking beer and, you know, maybe when they tournament and they get $200.

Totally.

I struggle with that.

Is that an event? That's an event. That's different in the books, right?

Right, right.

But yeah, I mean, this is like, I love that you just said that about the Taylor Swift con. You don't know where business is gonna be had. Being restricted by it. Yeah.

And we're looking, we're asking for relationships here, right? That's essentially what this is, is lawyers sell legal services and legal services usually are based on some sort of relationship, right? That this person can fix my legal issue. And how do you kind of keep that wheel greased and how do you stand out? There are 1.3 million lawyers in the country, right? And so everyone's looking for ways to kind of stand out from the crowd and Sometimes it's big things like we're talking about with the concert tickets. Sometimes it's smaller touches. Maybe you have a family law firm and maybe as part of the experience of the client experience of your law firm, maybe when clients are onboarded, they're handed, you know, maybe there's like some sort of folio to keep all of their documents together. Yeah. Or maybe you give them, you know, maybe 90 days later, something arrives in the mail and it's a journal, right? Because, you know, they're going through one of the worst moments in their life. And this is a trust relationship again. So there are lots of ways to gift and lots of reasons. And if anything is the takeaway here, it's the experience. People remember how you treated them, right?

Yes.

Just that Taylor Swift, you know, it's not all going to have the same weight. Or the same kind of impact. But people do remember how you treated them.

You know, you're— You're reminding me of that series. I can't remember it, but it's like the— it's the department store. It's the Nordstrom's experience. It's like that experience, that moment that sets in. I'm just saying Beyoncé right here. So anyone want to do Beyoncé?

Sarah, you and I have the same past. We come from the hotel business. And I remember the days when the VIP guests would arrive in the hotel and we would have these elaborate fruit baskets waiting in their room for them and all that sort of thing. It's all that personal touch making the experience so special that they'll remember you.

Absolutely. And it doesn't have to cost a gazillion dollars, you know what I mean? It really is just the intention behind it. So little touches like that. And Steve, if we're being honest, this is about Just as much as it's about being polite and kind of being all of that, it's also about being hospitable. And I think that's part of client services for law firms. They have lots of choices, lots, when, you know, for lots of different types of legal issues. Maybe one of the reasons they choose you is because you, you care about them. You reach in, you reach out and ask about how their business is going, or how their Do their trust and estates documents need to be updated, you know, every single year? Maybe you send them a prompt, but just how are you, how are you showing up for, for your clients? Not just collecting money or anything like that, but how do you really show your appreciation?

You know what we did? This one doesn't cost us anything, but we get mileage out of it when we— the clients that we do payroll for. We can go obviously into the payroll portal and find out what the birthdays are for all the employees. And then we remind the owner of the firm.

Yeah, I love doing that actually.

Yeah, it's like, did you know it's Sarah's birthday today? And they're like, oh my God, thank you.

Yeah, I remember the series, by the way, it's the Selfridge, the whole Selfridge series. If no one's ever seen that. It talks about the experience and it leads with experience. It's based on a true story of an American going on to the UK and builds this department store that was never like that. And it was all experience-based. And that is exactly what this profession is without the goods. We're making it. All services. Yeah, I love it.

Yeah. And so, you know, not everybody wants to be reminded of their worst moment. So not everybody would want to wear your bankruptcy law firm shirts, right? Even if it's North Face, even if it's a really high-level brand. So you've kind of got to be sensitive to some of this stuff.

Boy, am I glad you said that.

Or criminal.

Or criminal.

Yeah. Or just, I mean, if you're a DUI lawyer, there's some things people just do not want to keep talking about. Right. But could you gift in different ways? If you are a DUI lawyer, maybe as part of your client gifting, you give out proactive gift certificates for rideshare programs.

Right.

So I love that.

I'm full of these ideas. Fantastic idea.

Yeah, you're full of these.

This is—

you do this so well. Yeah, you do. You know, but there's so many ways to think creatively and out of the box, I think. You know, just, just again, just showing it isn't really about how much you spend. It really isn't about that. It really is just about how intentional you are, how sincere the gift is, and really, you know, will it resonate with your audience? Those are probably—

You can't forget employees because they're referrals.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And, and truly, when I worked in law firms, as part of our clerkship programs as part of our recruit, you know, kind of our new employee onboarding. You know, day 1, you get a mug. What's in that mug? You know, maybe some branded nice pens that you don't want to throw away. Maybe there's, you know, you've got— I've got, like, you know, little Denver Legal Marketing notepads and things like that. So I do think there's room for gifting, too, when it comes to your employees. Just when it comes to sharing your brand, right? Are they wearing a North Face jacket that has your law firm information on it? That would be okay. That doesn't mean they have a DUI. That means they work for the law firm that does the DUIs, you know, that— and it's one— I mean, they will wear that on the weekends. They'll wear that, you know, to school events, things like that for their kids. So these are just ways to promote your brand, kind of do well and do right by people at the same time.

So—

I can just picture that father in school. I'm like, oh, I didn't know you worked at a law firm. Oh, yeah, I'm an attorney, whatever. And they got the jacket on. What firm? You don't have to ask.

It's right there on it. Only you— yeah, sorry. There's like a fly in here for some reason. But yeah, I think—

Subtle way.

It's a conversation starter. You definitely don't want to have everybody wearing your brand all the time, that type of stuff. But I think polite, I think classy touches like that go pretty far, make people feel recognized.

I've worn my QuickBooks jacket and that's been something when you're on an airplane and they're like, oh, you work with QuickBooks? No, they gave me a jacket. I was on the council and this is my council jacket. And oh, you're on the advisory board and it just opens up, well, what do you do? And then, you know, like Sarah, she's always getting a client on the airplane. So perpetual marketer, really.

I like conversation.

Talks to everybody in the— Thank you. Me too.

I have Chatty Kathy all over the place. And honestly, it's part of my brand. People do expect that from me. They aren't surprised when something shows up in the mail totally unexpected because that's how I have behaved for my entire career. And so it doesn't feel contrived. It doesn't feel anything. It feels like this is authentically who I am, and it's authentically who Sarah is. Chatty Kathy. I get clients It's all over the place.

That's what they call my mom. She's in a nursing facility and today's her birthday. So happy birthday to Chatty Cat.

Happy birthday. Happy birthday.

She's 83 and this is how she remembers her age because she's got dementia. 83 and old as a tree. So she— I don't know why that sticks in her brain, but she knows her age. And so yeah, it's her birthday today.

I love that.

I only told her 50 times on the phone, like, Mom, it's your birthday today.

So. Awesome. Oh my gosh, this is so— there's been so many amazing little nuggets that you provided. People have to know how to find you because you're, you're a wealth of like to work with you. Marketing. Marketing. Just a wealth of amazing. Yes. Marketing. Man.

Sure. Because I mean, that's the thing with gifting. What do I get them? And you know, you want it to be special, but having someone like you give these, these ideas and floating these suggestions out, that kind of gets your brain going and like, you can probably come up with something even more unique. So yeah, how do we find— how does somebody find you that wants help with marketing? Because that's a sticky point for a lot of law firms based on what we've seen.

Uh-huh.

I get, I get it. I get it. I had clients before I had business cards, uh, when I opened up Denver Legal Marketing years ago. And there's a reason, um, you know, the majority of the law firms in our country are solo and small, right? They don't all necessarily have marketing teams with, you know, crazy people on them like me to say, hey, we should, you know, give out Legos at, you know, this event. Here's why, right? And here's why this is part of the bigger strategy. There's— so to get in touch with me, I'm at denverlegalmarketing.com. I'm also on LinkedIn all the time. And just send me an email. I would love to talk to anybody about their law firm gifting strategy. We are coming up on the holidays. So now is kind of the best time to think about, are we doing gift baskets? Are you doing, you know, tech? I've seen a lot of, you know, kind of tech-themed giving lately. I've seen some kind of fun cooking-themed lately. Steve and I were talking this morning about, you know, wine and cheese vendor. And, you know, I like stuff like that. I think you can pair a local vendor that provides, you know, custom cheese, custom wine, and then maybe there's a branded charcuterie board that goes with it, right? So you're not asking that your law firm's logo be part of their kitchen decor, but they're going to remember who gave them that amazing walnut cutting board or charcuterie display. So there, there are so many ways to pair up something thoughtful with something branded. at the same time. And if you're looking for help with that intention, just email me. I'm happy to chat.

And I can say follow her on LinkedIn because she shares amazing content. I see Steve and I probably Sarah too, like, check in, like, like, because I've read it all. It's amazing. We just had a really cool— and I just want to add just on a side note, we had a really cool with Clio. They did the mid-market Clio report. And it's so much valuable stuff in there. So if you haven't seen that yet also, but thank you, Miranda.

Thank you. Really.

And we appreciate it. We'll have you back for sure because your ability to help a lot of people is out there. But really, I really mean it. Follow her on LinkedIn. It's a really valuable resource. Reach out to her.

Do marketing right is what I'm saying. Like, do it right. Get someone like Miranda.

It doesn't have to cost a ton of money and then you get no results.

But do it right. Yeah. And have her on your team. Just like we're all— thankfully, you are a blessing in the legal space, knowing you're a practicing attorney, knowing what you know. I mean, you know what I mean?

No.

So I'm not a lawyer. I have been around them for a very long time. This was my—

You're brilliant. You're on brand.

My first job, my first semester of college was working for lawyers and law firms, and I kind of never left the industry, but a lot of people do think that.

But no, that's all right.

We forget when you're a solo lawyer, you don't just think, oh, I got to do the marketing myself, but you can get someone to do it for you that knows marketing, right? Because it's hard to know everything and you wear all these hats. It's hard to know everything.

And knows your profession. And knows your profession. Truly.

That's probably one of the biggest things is just kind of knowing what's okay, what our industry standards are, even depending on what— there's some attorneys that have multiple state admissions. There are lots of rules that we have to kind of figure out. We have to navigate when it comes to this stuff.

We do, too. The trust laws are different in different states.

Yeah, you get it.

And so in terms of marketing, advertising, stuff like that is different. All over the place. So, you know, I do think it's smart though to think about this intentionally and not just once a year, you know, is probably a few things as just takeaways on this for smaller law firms or even medium-sized law firms. This is not a one and done. This is not a just December thing.

Enjoy this podcast. We hope you subscribe to the podcast and our YouTube channel. We'd also love it if you rate the podcast. We're getting a lot of great results. We'd love that. And if you'd share it with your friends, especially if you have other people in the industry, we'd love you to do that as well. If you have any questions or topic requests, guest suggestions, you can email us at info@accountantslawpod.com. Send us a message through our website, accountantslawpod.com. You want to join us in the Accountants Law Lab, which we didn't talk much about today, but it's a mastermind group that Sarah and I and Steve are all part of, and we help share what we know to help you learn legal accounting. You can join us at theaccountantslawlab.com. And we'd love it if you follow us on TikTok. So we're everywhere. You'll find us. And, um— we'd love to have you follow us and just give us a follow, give us a like, and we'll see you all next time.

And if you love us, go to Miranda and get chocolates and send them to us.

Get Miranda's chocolates.

Yes, absolutely. I totally forgot about our outtake.

I know.

I did too. I was so sucked into what we were doing there.

I'm so involved in this conversation. I love talking to Miranda.

I love talking to you all. This is all super mutual.

This is a big—

for a mutual love fest here because I like this stuff. I love what you all do and how you help and serve the lawyers and the legal community in general. So neat stuff. Thanks again for this opportunity.

Thank you.

I'll see you all next time. Bye, everybody.

Bye-bye.