A discussion on Jobs to be Done w/ Bob Moesta, Co-Architect of JTBD / President of the ReWired Group

Hey everybody, it's Mike Deliceto, a co-founder of Product Collective, and we're back for another industry interview. Thank you very much for joining me on what here is a pretty frigid day in Cleveland, Ohio. At least that's where, that's where I'm at. But I hope wherever you're at, maybe it's a little warmer. I just wanted to, you know, I want to make sure we could get into the conversation we're going to have pretty quickly, but I thought I'd start off with just a couple of quick things. I know many of you, this might be the first industry interview that you've ever attended. So if that's the case, thank you very much for joining us. Just as a quick kind of overview what these are all about, these are really 30-minute video chat sessions that we have with product leaders from really all over, and we've had some great chats before. Actually, all of our chats are recorded, so you could see some of the past ones maybe later on if you, if you want to browse those. But I actually love taking questions from you. So, you know, I have questions of my own for our guests today, and definitely we'll get started with some of those. But I wanted to point out there's a section called Ask a Question, and that's where if you have a question right now that you want to make sure that we could get to, or maybe something comes up in our conversation, there is a chat, but I would ask you to put your question in the Ask a Question section. I'll be monitoring that, and I love taking more audience questions and even my questions if I can, if I can manage it. If there's there's enough questions there. So make sure you could do that at any time, really. But the chat is great for just introducing yourself. It's always fun to see where people are from, what products they're working on. And just before we get started, I wanted to, uh, kind of announce a couple of quick things. Next month, um, actually it's like 5 weeks away, we have the European edition of Industry, and I, I'm pumped for that. You know, we'll be back in Dublin, Ireland Actually, our guest, Bob, who you can already see. Bob was there with us last year, so it's a lot of fun. And then we've got— Bob, you are— this is actually— I know I haven't even gotten to the intros, but you've been with us in Cleveland and Dublin, so you have a unique perspective of both, which is pretty cool. But then I alluded to Cleveland. Cleveland is in the fall. That's our main global conference. So I think there's a green button, at least there should be for most of you tuning in. Where you could click that and check out the details of Industry a little bit later. And then if you're not in Product Collective, that's the community that we have for product people. That's where, you know, we'll invite you to chats like this. We have a pretty active Slack group with, I think it was like 6,000 or 7,000 people now in the Slack group. So if you go to productcollective.com, you could check all that out too. But with all that, I will officially introduce you, Bob. Bob Mesta with the Rewired Group, Thanks a lot for joining us, Bob.

I really appreciate it. I'm excited to be here. I don't like the fact that I can see myself. I kind of want to turn that off, but I'm going to try to look past it. So welcome, by the way. Welcome to my, my crazy cluttered office, which has just like every innovation you can imagine inside it. And it's like, I try to make sure there's nothing proprietary in the background, but it's just crazy stuff in here. So I didn't get a chance to clean my office before I got on. So, wow.

I, I've had the opportunity to get to visit your office before, and I— it's kind of inspiring for me because yes, there are lots of things there, but they're, they're all things that are kind of inspiring to product people too. So I think that's kind of cool.

Fun stuff. So what are we here to talk about today?

We are here to talk about Jobs to Be Done, which is something I'm no expert at, but you've, you've been helping us with at Product Collective. And, um, yeah, so I mean, I guess I'll kind of get right into it. I know this is— it's a framework that you've spent a good bit of your life really focused around. And I feel like when I talk to other product people, sometimes there's just confusion about like, what does it actually mean? Like, what is it? What is jobs really? So maybe we could just start there. Like, in your— what is jobs?

So let's just, let's, let's start just a little bit about where it came from. Like, so I'm a product guy, I'm an engineer. I, I started building stuff when I was 8, 9 years old. I built speakers. I learned all these different things. But being dyslexic, My thing was to just make shit, right? And so the bigger part was that the hard part is understanding the marketing information I would get and what consumers would say and what they meant. And so Jobs is really about just flipping the lens. And in terms of typically we would look at our product and then we look at the consumer through our product. And so Jobs is really about kind of flipping that lens and looking at the world through the consumer's eyes. And in most cases, not just looking at the money that they spend on it. So they don't buy a product, they hire a product and they hire a product to actually make progress in their life. And so by looking at it through that lens, you start to realize there's different resources besides money. There's time, there's knowledge, there's trade-offs that people make. There's all these different things that are going on. And so part of it is, and by framing basically how people make these choices of what to choose, when to choose, how they choose, we're able to actually build a specification for the solution that's actually solution agnostic. It's like, what is that product supposed to do as opposed to what is that product? It's a very, it's different from that perspective. Perspective.

Which, you know, it didn't take you too long to explain that. Like, it seems like it's something that is like simple enough when you first hear about it, but it does seem like it's hard to get it right, or it's hard to like sort of, um, get to a point where you feel like, hey, I'm an expert at this now.

Yeah.

Do you agree with that, or like why do you think that might—

so, so, uh, I was lucky enough to have some mentors, uh, around the— in throughout my life. One of them was a gentleman by the name of Genichi Taguchi, and he He was from Japan and he was from Nippon Telephone and Telegraph and Toyota. He would talk about it as the fact that there are lots of things that are simple like meditation or yoga, but to really be good at it and be masterful at it, you've got to put the work in. You've got to do the reps. I think conceptually, jobs is a very easy thing to grasp. I think the reality is what you realize is language is a very, very subjective thing and trying to understand what people mean by things. Where people will use the same words and have very different intents behind it, or they'll say very different things, but yet mean the same thing. And so part of it is that deep dive into the nuances of language and ultimately what causes people to make progress. And so it's this moving past the correlation piece and moving into the causal piece. So it is tricky, and to be honest, it's not built on traditional market research of, you know, consumers know what they want, we just got to ask them and they'll tell us. It's really based on the premises that consumers don't know what they want and that they lie, and they lie to themselves, not necessarily on purpose. So it's actually really built on criminal and intelligence interrogation methods more than it is kind of market research methods.

Well, that's a good segue to the other question I was going to ask you, which I know— I mean, I imagine that there's sort of several components. I know one really important component is is the actual interview that you actually do with customers. And some people might already be doing customer interviews. So what makes the jobs-to-be-done interview different than maybe other types of interviews that product people are used to doing with customers?

So, so in a lot of cases, people are interviewing customers to figure out kind of where they, where they have problems with their products and where they, what else would they like the product to do. And so A lot of times they talk to their best consumers, but what happens is, is that just adding a new feature doesn't mean they're actually going to stay any longer or that they're going to— you're going to make any more money. So we end up adding all these features that actually don't add any value. Though somebody says they want it, it doesn't mean that they actually will use it, right? And so part of this is that we start with what— at the edges, right? So instead of talking to the core of who's our best users, we actually talk to the people who switch. We talk to the people who switch into your product. So the people who, like, I would go and talk to 5 or 6 people who just recently hired your product and 5 or 6 people who were using your product for a long time and left. And what I'll do is, I believe that in these transition points is where like the DNA kind of trickles up of what people, causes people to do things. But if I'm in the middle of it and I'm using it every day, to be honest, most of the time I just make shit up. Like my example is, is if you use Tide to wash your clothes and you've been using it for 5 years and you buy it every other week and I ask you, boy, what, you know, why do you buy Tide? You actually don't know and you make it up. Oh, because it smells good, it gets my clothes clean. And then you say, well, what does that mean, clothes clean? And what clothes does it clean? And what clothes doesn't it clean? And you start getting into these details. But if I talk to somebody who switched from Cheer to Tide or from Tide to Cheer, I actually get a lot more richness of the information of what they're valuing from it. And over time, they forget about those reasons and they just know it works, right? And the ultimate thing to me is that the interview is really about kind of this aspect of going from product A to product B or going from nothing to something. And that's where we got to find the motivational energy, both social, emotional, and functional, that does it. And so it's not talking about what people want. It's not talking about what features they'd like. It's really digging back into the underlying dominoes that had to fall in their life to get to what, what, you know, what caused them to put a, you know, a new Tesla in their garage. It's like, it's not random. And so a lot of times it's finding those causal mechanisms. That's mostly the big difference. And it's really, really important to listen. And to be honest, I don't have a list of questions when I go in. I literally just have a framework and I listen to the answer to the last question before I frame the next one.

Well, and on that note, like, how long does it take? You know, I've had customer interviews where it's shorter. Some are long. Like, what's your take on that?

Yeah. So, so typically the first 15 to 20 minutes— most interviews are anywhere from 45 minutes to 90 minutes. I've done them as long as 2 hours. And it's really about getting down to the subtleties of it. And a lot of times you're not talking about your product at all. You're talking about their life. I mean, we did interviews, you know, for people who came to the conference, right? And what were the jobs and what were the struggling moments about it? And most of the time we never talked about the conference. We were talking about what they hoped they were gonna get out of the conference and what caused them to say they needed to come to the conference. And it was talking about their life, but it wasn't talking about your product. And so if you just talk about your product and they only can say yes or no questions, typically those are gonna be 10-minute interviews. But if you're asking them about their life and about all the things that are going on, in their life that said, today's the day I want to go to Industry, all of a sudden you realize it's, it's a way bigger picture and it's a way longer process than you think.

Yeah, that— I mean, what Bob's referring to is we, um, meaning Bob and me together, we actually interviewed, uh, customers of ours, right? These were attendees of Industry, the product conference from last year. And, um, for those of you that want to, we actually released the whole interview on, on our podcast at Rocketship. So it's rocketship.fm, and you can go go back and find it. I'll, I'll send the link to that, um, when I follow up with everybody tomorrow. But that was one of the things for me, I was— a big takeaway is just— and you, you kind of mentioned this in the very beginning, you called it an interrogation. Like, I think for me, I, I was used to customer interviews where I'm thinking, oh, these people don't have a lot of time, like, I need to get to the point. But what I learned from sitting in on you with those is that you really, like, dig in with people. And like, somebody will say something like, yeah, it makes my clothes feel clean. Using the tight example, but you will like almost for me it was like uncomfortably so. But why is that so important? Because we talked about it afterwards that that's actually an important aspect of it.

So, so here's, so here's the thing is like I remember one of the things that I was so excited to come. So what were you excited about? What does that word excitement mean? And like if it becomes a criteria I have to deliver as an engineer or as a product person, I have to cause it to happen. Right? And so part of it was being able to understand what things were pulling them towards the conference. And it was the diversity of speakers. It was the fact that they had time to interact with peers, that they, like, there was a whole bunch of things that people had in their minds. And then by understanding it, you know, you actually redesigned how the conference worked. So you have this, I think there's a really cool session that you guys do. I want to call it a garage talk, but that's not, what is it called?

TalkShop.

TalkShop, right? It's just great. Like, you go from the big stage to the small side stage where everybody can kind of hang around and it's on some couches. So it's like the Q&A doesn't happen in the big audience. The Q&A happens about 10-15 minutes afterwards where you sit down and like you can go— it's almost like a fireside chat with people who are really interested, and those who aren't can kind of move away. And so, it's like that whole notion of like, how do you cause it to feel like you have access to the to the speakers. And that was one way where you were able to cause that by literally having them come off the stage and come down to kind of like, you know, a common area to hang out. And it really is a, you know, a good example of listening to the words that the consumer use, unpacking it to what they meant, and then designing a new experience to give them the feel like they can have an intimate or, you know, a kind of a one-on-one conversation with somebody without being afraid to talk, to raise your hand in the middle of a stage of 1,000 people.

Yeah, thank you for that. And I will say, like, the interviews that we did together, like, we came up with new features for the conference. Now maybe we'll talk about that in a little bit, but that was based on like two conversations. Somebody— I want to go to an attendee question or an audience question. They said, um, here, you know, I have no problem conducting the interview, building the timeline, but How do you compile several interviews and organize the insights? I guess I'll add to that, like, how many interviews does it really take to come up with insights that we should, you know, feel comfortable enough to put to use?

Yeah, so I'm going to break that into two questions. Like, so how do you analyze that data? So right now I'm in the middle of a sprint. We did the 10 interviews on Monday, Tuesday. Today we're analyzing the data, unpacking and framing the jobs, and then tomorrow is implications and prototyping and then 90-day plan on Friday. And so What today, last night was, was first of all, after each interview, we spend anywhere from 45 minutes to, you know, almost an hour and a half to do the interview. We spend at least that long codifying every single interview. What were the pushes? What were the pulls? What were the anxieties? What were the habits? What was passive looking? When were the events that caused them to go to active looking? What did active looking look like? Like, it's packing the framework back in with that detail. And so, as we do each interview, you kind of let them kind of pile on top of each other. But then there's several different ways to do analysis. One is to then build what I call dimensions that allow us to understand what are the sets of causes, pushes that happen? What are the set of pulls that happen? And then we use cluster analysis to do that. So there's some, and to be honest, I'm just building a Switch 2.0, which is right now a 2.5-day class to not only teach interviewing, but also then teach kind kind of the analysis technique. And, you know, I'm trying to make it as robust as possible, meaning I think if it, like the way I have it now is I think if you put garbage in, you still get garbage out. But the fact is, is that there's some analytics around it to help you do that. So there are different methods for analysis. I think the second half of your question was, remind me again.

Just like how many does it take to become relevant?

So this is a common, you know, kind of question. And what I would say is that, And we've done actually a little bit of research on this, but it's like, you know, we actually do a very specific job to make sure that we actually recruit very diverse people to talk to. So very diverse in demographics, psychographic, geography, kind of around a question that you have. And so we can usually do it in 10 to 12 to get the first set of patterns that we need. And then, to be honest, I've been working on some quantitative— after that, you can actually pull out the information to do some quantitative with larger sample sizes. But I will tell you this, that most people can do 5 to 10 interviews and they've got enough work for about 90 days. I mean, there's, it doesn't take long. I mean, I think we did 4 or 5 in the beginning and it was like, okay, we got enough. We, I'm gonna go do these 8 things. And, and we haven't done interviews since because it's like you've just been implementing. And so I think, you know, Basecamp, when we started this in 2010, I think we did the first round was like 10 or 12 interviews and they, they didn't start the— Ryan didn't start a second set of interviews for 18 months, right? Because it's just, it's that— it's almost like a peeling back a layer of stuff you didn't see before, and it's like there's just a lot of stuff to clean up, right?

Uh, I want to rewind back a bit only because you mentioned things like pushes and pulls and anxieties. Could you maybe just like give a quick, um, for people that have never like maybe heard those terms in this context, like what do you mean by this?

Yeah, yeah, can I, can I, can I, can I actually do a screen share or not?

I think so, yeah.

Hold on, give me 2 seconds and I'll pull something up. All right, cool. Let me just pull, uh, um, one more second. Let's go here, we'll go Northwestern. I'll go here, uh, '18.

And by the way, while Bob's pulling this up, I just want to really quickly, like, one of the— it took us like even in just the first 2 interviews we did for industry, we realized like one of these anxieties that attendees have is when they're there they're constantly taking notes because they feel like, when I get back, I'm gonna need to prove to my boss that this was worth sending me. They're spending a lot of money to send me here, spend a lot of money on the ticket. And so we found people like kind of stressed, like, as they're taking notes. And then we thought to ourselves, like, well, what if, what if we could take the notes for them? Like, nobody in these interviews said, you guys should take notes for us. Like, how come you don't do that? But, but we use some of those insights, and we actually hire now professional journalists to take notes before you even leave the conference, you're sent this ebook with everything nicely compiled. And I think that, that note-taker, um, in Europe got the biggest ovation, even more so than any of our speakers. So, um, that just as a quick example, you know, non-tech product, only took us 2 interviews to really get to that insight.

Yep.

And I see we've got a screen.

Got it. So, so this is— so I just want to— again, not everybody can probably see it, but the thing is, is what we're trying to do is understand what— so first of all, people don't randomly switch anything. Nothing is random. Randomness is actually the laziness of us or the inability for us to articulate why people do what they do. And so to me, I choose to think everything is caused. And so if this is where I didn't, I was using other software, and now this is being using your software product, what was the struggling moment that happened in their life? What pushed them to say, today's the day I have to actually do something better? What were they hoping for the moment that they saw your your product, which is that magnetism. And then the other part here is then what is the anxiety of that new solution and the habit that they have to overcome in order to make progress? And so part of it is, as you're having these conversations, you're literally trying to understand and piece together when this, you know, it's almost like the irrational becomes rational with context. If we can understand the context somebody was in, they'll usually tell you, I've got the craziest story. But the reality is, is when I understand both that push and pull, That's the thing that ultimately defines the job. The second part is we actually decode kind of every— the process of making progress. So it's like, when did they have the first thought? How did they passively look? How did they actually learn about it? Did they learn about it from an ad? Did they learn about it from a friend? How did they actually find it? And then what was active looking look like? And so there's this process by which we actually do the interviews. And so these are the two frames that I choose to use to basically do all my questions. Now, I know there's people out there who've listened to all my interviews and created cards and yeah, there's a discussion guide and really my experience is almost very Zen-like, like go in with an empty vessel. I have no idea what caused them to buy our software. Let me hear their stories. Let me unpack the words that they say, "Boy, this was a really cool software." What the hell does that mean? And what did they see that made it cool and what were the things that were not cool about the other software and trying to make sure you have it down down to very tangible, tangible things. I don't know, was that helpful enough?

Yeah, definitely. No, yeah, I think it— again, just kind of rewinding it for some folks. I think that's awesome. Um, there were a couple audience questions that were kind of centered around similar thing, which is, can you apply this kind of concept if the end—

you—

if the person we're talking to isn't somebody that's actually buying the product? So it might be a user of enterprise software, might be an internal stakeholder that's using internal software we're building. I'm curious your take on that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so in, in B2B situations, they're sometimes a little bit different, but you have to actually align the job. So what happens is I might have— think of Salesforce. Salesforce is bought by the, the VP of sales and usually the VP of IT and, you know, sales management, but the salespeople are the people who have to use it. So I actually have to understand what we call the big hire, which is when do they— when do I actually buy How does the product actually get bought? And what is the little higher, which is how do I actually satisfy and help the salespeople sell more? And part of it is, is being able to reconcile kind of the conflicts between the big higher and the little higher. And what I found is this, as much as I would, like, when I first started out, I literally would design the best products in the world and I'd get no big higher because I wasn't actually solving a problem for the people buying it. And then I would actually figure out how to build products that people would buy. But then, then I wouldn't have enough money left to actually deliver on the stuff to actually help the people on the front lines make progress. And so to me, it's all about trade-off between that big hire and little hire. And what I would say is when they struggle in the little hire is when they start to look for a new product. And so you can't, you can't skimp on either, but you have to realize that a lot of times people aren't buying it for what they're using it for. They're buying it for a completely different reason. And you have to be able to understand both of those kinds of scenarios. And so In that case, it makes the market harder, but that's just what it is. It's not, it's not like I'm— there's no silver bullet here.

And what, what about, um, you know, common misconceptions? I imagine sometimes you, you hear things that are said about jobs, you're like, what? It's not actually true. I'm just curious because it might be good for us to keep an eye out for things like that.

Yeah, there's, there's a lot of people out there talking about jobs and talking about different for things. And again, it's one of those things where there's actually somebody who tried to trademark and copyright everything around Jobs, and I actually had to go defend that it wasn't them, and that I had to actually kind of make it into the public domain. So part of the mess is caused by me, but at the same time, I feel like if you try to hold onto it too tightly, nobody will use it. And so I think there's a lot of, there's some misconceptions out there, but I think any way you look at it, talking to your customer, and trying to figure out what causes them to buy is the right principle. Like, I don't think you can go wrong in that. I think there are different techniques and methods by which you can execute on it. I think the notion is that in most cases it's about actually helping to figure out the trade-offs as an engineer. What to me, I use it mostly as an engineering tool, but we use it also in positioning and strategy and some other places. But I think the misconceptions around, well, it's just ethnography. Well, ethnography doesn't actually talk about causality, and it doesn't— most of the time you have design thinking that talks about the ideal user experience, and I actually kind of vehemently disagree with that because I think the fact is there is no ideal experience. What has to happen is I have to be able to design an experience that works for as many possible people as— or as many people as possible. And so what are the trade-offs I have to make, and where is it where if I make it this way, these people will hate it, or if I make it that way, those people will hate it. How do I actually figure out the right way to to make sure that I can satisfy as many people as possible. And so it's a very different kind of thing. I think the other people say it's like need states or some of these other kind of techniques, and it's really meant to be something for, I always say, like the common man, like the entrepreneur, or basically that's like I can get on the phone pretty much anywhere with anybody to figure out what caused them to buy something. And so it's a skill I think you can use in your whole life. And so I think it's more kind of wrapped around that. It's not to— meant to be a panacea or solve everything or silver bullet. It's just one of the tools in my toolbox. I mean, I have about 25 different tools in my toolbox. I pull this one out a lot, but I pull a lot of— I pull a lot of other ones out as well.

Yeah, that— well, look, I have time for a couple more questions. Actually, I wanna, I wanna ask one audience question that came through, which is, can you apply the same sort of concepts to a group setting, or is the individual one-on-one interview like, that is a critical part of it?

Well, so the thing is, is in the group setting, so there's, think of it as that there's, if you have, um, let's say, um, a, a, um, let's say a bit, two business partners, right? The fact is, is like, one, in a group setting, everybody's gonna have their own internal motivations, and then they're gonna actually have motivations as it relates to the group. Like, I don't want to cause conflict, though I believe this, I'm willing to trade off that. And so part of this is it works in that sense, but you have to be able to get everybody to articulate what those, in some cases, unarticulable needs are by actually behavior. And so this is really looking at what do they do versus what do they say. And so we've used it in many cases about how to run boards. We've used it in terms of schools, in terms of a large group, in terms of instruction. We've used it in terms of looking at services and education. So to me, there's a lot of places where you can apply it. It's, it's more about being able to understand then the power of the group versus the power of the individual.

Well, I— to kind of wrap things up, because we really only have a couple minutes left, like, I feel like I could, I could do this for like 2 hours with you for sure. Um, but if you— for people that want to get started, for people that, you know, they're, they're dipping their toes in the water but maybe they haven't really like conducted that first interview I guess, what do you suggest to them to start? And I know you, you are going to be at Industry this year, so that, that is one thing they could come and meet you there. I know you have— you'll be giving a talk and you'll workshops, but aside from that, what other ways can people get?

So I, I just, uh, I heard Dez Traynor today, uh, he's on the Disruptive Voice, which is out of the Harvard Business School, and it's, uh, Clay Christensen and Derek Van Beveren, those guys. And I, I thought there, um, um, Dez had a great suggestion. I wish I could say I came up with it, but I think he has the right angle on it, which is, you know what, go talk to one customer who recently left you and just say, why in the world, what caused you to say today's the day I'm going to leave you? And figure out how did they figure out what to do next? Because despite it, besides what you might think, they're making progress by leaving you. The second is go find somebody who literally has bought you yesterday. And say, what caused you to say today's the day I'm going to sign up and use you? And, and again, dig deep past what the product is to what happened in their lives and what, what did they give up to get to your— to sign up for your product. And then go talk to your best customers and ask them why they use it in terms of what causes them to say, hey, when I'm doing this, I would use it. Here's the thing, here's places I struggle. My thing is, if you have those 3 conversations and boil them down to a one piece of paper, and you look at those 3 conversations, 30 minutes, 45 minutes, an hour, like, and, and you look at it and say, I didn't learn anything, then jobs probably won't work for you. But my belief is, is if you do those 3, 3 hours of kind of just talking to your customer about what caused them as opposed to what they like, you'll actually learn a lot more than you ever thought. That's the best way to start.

I like that. I like that for sure. Well, I— there's more questions coming in, but we have to wrap things up. So I'm curious, like, maybe you could let folks know, like, how can— how can they stay in touch with you? I know you're on Twitter and there's other resources that are out there. Actually, somebody also asked about JobsBeDone.org.

That's something that JobsBeDone.org is kind of— Chris Beck and I and Irvin folks are kind of out there managing that. We have a class on there, which is a— it's like an online— it's mostly focused on just the interviewing technique. I'm working on a new one that's going to include the analysis. We've got JobsToBeDone Radio, and then The Disruptive Voice, which is at the Harvard Business School. I've been helping them build a series of tools, and there's a podcast by— what do you call it— Levi Belsnap, and then does training around jobs. So I think there's lots of resources. Our Intercom, in terms of their book, You know, I'm out on Twitter. I'll be at Industry. I'm going to actually do two things. I'm going to do a workshop on the jobs to be done, but I'm also going to do one on the five skills of an innovator, which is kind of summarizing my 30 years of doing this and saying, what are the skills that— like, everybody's talking about methods and tools and all this stuff, but there's these underlying skills that innovators have that are very, very different, and nobody's really talking about. I'm going to do both my talk on that. I'll do a workshop on that as well.

That's great. Well, I appreciate you joining us for this. Everybody, I appreciate you joining. And, uh, yeah, everybody would love to have you back for another industry interview. We've got one coming up with Dierja Kaur of The Skimm, and, uh, it should be fun. And yeah, Bob, as always, it's awesome catching up.

Have fun in Dublin. I wish I could be there. Uh, hopefully I'll be there next year.

Sounds great. All right, I'll see you soon.

Bye.